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Author Topic: AmigaOS 68k development - components, critics, bugs, work-arounds, tips&tricks  (Read 46935 times)

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Offline kollaTopic starter

Ah, and you know what "most users want"?
You know that I consider "most users" a myth, an excuse to cling on to when "developers" run out of real arguments :)
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Ah, and you know what "most users want"?
You know that I consider "most users" a myth, an excuse to cling on to when "developers" run out of real arguments :)
Then why do you come up with such a fake argument to begin with?
I was not the one who brought “most users” into this, you did. And at the same time you use “low end systems” as an argument as well. Well, what do you know? Did you conduct a survey or something? I find the way 3.1.4 (and now 3.2) is being developed and delivered very questionable, lots of rather strange decisions are being made “behind closed doors” and that is why this very thread exists in the first place - if you cannot watch others having opinions about the project, then ignore this thread and stick to your own.

What I can tell is that I have seen more than once people be confused about not being able to boot into workbench from floppies and disk images that worked well earlier, both programs and games. You can perhaps count on A4000T systems having hard drives, but for a500/a600/a1200/cd32 there are plenty of people who just swap between various cf or sd cards for “hard drives” and use gotek as floppy drive. And such systems are better off with plain old 3.1 kickstart at this point, as 3.1.4 introduces a number of problems.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

What is your goal with these essay long rants here Thomas, closing down this thread? I was requested to open my own thread about my issues, so I did, only to find it littered within a few hours about rather irrelevant discussions about booting from CD drives and 1MB kickstart roms...

It is perfectly doable to fit variants of workbench.library and icon.library in a 512kB rom. Note that I didn’t argue for 1MB rom, I just find some of your arguments a bit far fetched.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

I was not the one who brought “most users” into this, you did.
Read your post #43.
Read your post #42.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Thus, I wonder, why do you want to hide the modules from the user by placing them into a non-accessible spot?
Funny you should ask - that is exactly what Apple did, and Compaq did the same with their BIOS. Windows10 today typically has at least one hidden partition. You now, those closed doors decisions that were made for very good reasons by technical competent people without involving users? It's lovely when you can cherrypick when you wish to compare to "the industry".
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Funny you should ask - that is exactly what Apple did, and Compaq did the same with their BIOS. Windows10 today typically has at least one hidden partition. You now, those closed doors decisions that were made for very good reasons by technical competent people without involving users? It's lovely when you can cherrypick when you wish to compare to "the industry".
Though we are talking here AmgiaOs and neither Windows nor ios.

I appreciate your change of mind regarding the fact that we are talking about AmigaOS and neither Windows nor iOS.

If Microsoft develops windows, those decisions are also made behind closed doors. If Apple develops ios, those decisions are also made behind closed doors. For good reason - such discussions are made between developers that understand the technical background, and that are willing to work to make something happen.

Quote
And your point for doing the same on the Amiga is?
It is not a point for me, I am not a "most user".
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

It is not a point for me, I am not a "most user".

I can elaborate on this. On certain systems I have (CD32s for example), it is most convenient to keep using the OS 3.1 kickstart, and hence also keep a very small FFS partition at the start of the disk, with only BootCtrl, LoadModule and kickstart modules. On cold boot, this is the boot partition, then BootCtrl is used to deactivates this boot partition (temporary as from early-startup), LoadModule loads all relevant updates and system resets, using new scsi.device, booting into the "real" OS partition which is larger and has fancy long filenames FFS etc.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

I didn’t mention RDB at all, I just mentioned that having a dedicated “magic” partition for rom updates can be useful also on Amiga. And nothing prevents anyone from doing it already. Consider this as sorting under “tips & tricks” as well as “work-arounds” in the topic of this thread.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Sorry didn't realise you wanted this as your own personal thread. Thought it was open to any one to mention stuff, as the title suggests.

It is, I am not stopping anyone.
I just find the discussions about booting from CD drives (which you brought up) and 1MB kickstart (which Thomas brought up) rather irrelevant.
But please go ahead, continue, ad nauseam if you like.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Since this turned out to be just as boring and tedious as other threads on OS 3.1.4/3.2, perhaps I can toss in random bugs...

I noticed that a clipboard bug was discovered and reported elsewhere - good! I've had occasional crashes when pasting into KingCON - I realised that this one would be utterly pointless to report, so I am glad it was discovered elsewhere.

So, random bug - when selecting multiple devices devices on Workbench, and then format them from the icon menu, once the first one is formatted with "quick format", the "quick format" option for the remaining devices is grayed out, leaving only regular "format" and "cancel" as options.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Actually, not reproducable here. The logic between greying out and not greying out the QUICK option is quite simple: If there is a volume in the DosList that corresponds to the device to be formatted, it is not greyed out. Otherwise it is. Thus, the usual game: Remove all hacks and patches, and try again.

No hacks, no patches. Booting the OS 3.1.4 Install floppy and plain 3.1.4 kickstart. Fresh hard drive - set up with 4 partitions in HDToolBox, installed "long filenames" (..307), maxtransfer, buffers... save, reboot with OS 3.1.4 Install floppy, select the 4 new partitions, icon menu, format... four format windows show up, all with "quick format" as option. Click "quick format" on either of them, and the remaining three windows refresh and their respective "quick format" buttons are grayed out. In genereal happens to the format window of all "Uninitialized" partitions. Happens on all systems I have tested on, be it "real", emulated or FPGA

But I am not at all surprised that you cannot reproduce - it is not the first time.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

The "Quick" option comes back once the format is complete as it will generate a disk-inserted IDCMP, and the volume node will then become available again.

No, the "quick" option does _not_ come back once the format is complete - if it had come back, I would not have called this a bug. With 3.1.4, for "quick format" to come back, you have to close and reopen the Format program.

With OS 3.1, "quick format" never grays out, one can even do quickformat on many partitions at the same time.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

With OS 3.1, "quick format" never grays out, one can even do quickformat on many partitions at the same time.
Which is curious since I have not changed the logic of Format.
Clearly something has changed.

And besides - why gray out only "quick format", and leave the rather more damaging "format" available?
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Good lord, why do you have such a hard time understanding??

One Format per partition - I want to format them, one after the other.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Partition up a disk with HDToolBox - two partitions.

Reboot.

They both show up as "unititialized".

Select both.

Select "Format" from the icon menu.

Notice how both Format windows, one for each partition, has "Quick format" as options.

Select "Quick format" on one of them.

Answer all confirmation requesters so the partition is formatted.

Let it finish - it is quick.

The partition is now formatted, volume icon shows up on Workbench.

Notice how _THE OTHER_ Format window, for _THE OTHER_ partition now has "Quick format" grayed out - EVEN AFTER FIRST FORMATTING IS FINISHED.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kollaTopic starter

Re: AmigaOS 68k development - components, critics, bugs, work-arounds, tips&tricks
« Reply #29 from previous page: November 16, 2019, 09:18:44 AM »
So the bug is there, “quick format” should be reappear as available option in the Format window of the second partition once formatting of first partition is done. Like you wrote earlier. Do you acknowledge that this is a bug, or do you write it off as “expected behavior”, even though it makes zero sense from a user’s point of view?

In general, I don’t have a hard time writing bug reports, but with you, and just you, it’s a damn fight every effin time.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS