Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: HyperionMP on January 28, 2003, 09:27:30 AM
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This is not really newsworthy but I can assure all of you that OS 4 development is proceeding nicely.
Nearly all of the functionality described in the feature-list has now been implemented.
A team of 60+ people has been beta-testing and localising since quite some time and the number of outstanding bugs in Bugzilla has been going down steadily.
It's however very hard to estimate exactly when OS 4 will hit end-users because we are committed to delivering a bug-free product but the idea that it won't be ready before the end of the year is completely off the mark.
The worst (in development terms) is now behind us.
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I think the majority of us never doubted it ;-) . Still it was quite a scare :nervous: .
Cheers :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint:
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So all the people out there are calmed now.
it worked!.:-D
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HyperionMP wrote:
Nearly all of the functionality described in the feature-list has now been implemented.
Including the implementation of the 68k-emu, i.e. everything is running already on PPC-only?
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Well, you should know, you're a betatester ...
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@HyperionMP
No doubt there will be a lot of flame mail after this from those
that do not want this to be true, the same cast that wanted
the "Yoris" comment to be true - in the same way that there
are those that did not want the "Yoris" statement to be true
but it is appreciated that you posted this comment on here ( and
for chosing Amiga.org to make the statement ) and I hope you
don't get put off by the ensuing debacle.
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Yes,I know,but how can i stop a thread like this without breaking NDA?
better trying to calm down without opening things to the
masses :-D
BTW,also is too hard to maintain,when you know such info,
and all the people whining.
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HyperionMP wrote:
Well, you should know, you're a betatester...
Well, if you want me to become one for OS4 as well, I gladly will. :-)
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Senex wrote:
Well, if you want me to become one for OS4 as well, I gladly will. :-)
And when my AmigaONE arrives, i'll gladly sign an NDA and test it, too :-D
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@Bodie
It's sad that Hyperion have to prove/justify and also have to waste time countering against this kind of 'FUD'.
Even though Ben has bothered wasting time to do so, IMHO it's a futile exercise.
There will still be posts from 'certain' people who apparantly know more about the progress of OS4 than Hyperion do themselves, giving out about Ben being a liar, etc, etc.
I don't profess to know any more than the average person here, however from postings I've had with a few contributors to the project, I've gotten the impression it's a lot closer to being done than 'certain' people would like you to believe.
There will be calls for Hyperion to show something, but since no company in their right sense shows an incomplete OS to the public (with the exception of M$ with Win95 ;~), there's no need at this time for any alarm.
If we hear _nothing at all_ for 6 months call me back.
Until then "Don't Panic Mr Mannering"***
-john
***Quote from Old TV series 'Dads Army'
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Thankyou so much HyperionMP. Glad to hear you calming things down. Somepeople seem to get all psycho and make them selves believe rumours that sound stupid, and are stupid.
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@jd997uk
I totally agree with you :-) ! It was, however, good to see Hyperion come out almost immediately to quash this blatantly false rumour. However, I also agree with you that no matter what Hyperion will state, others will come out and claim that Hyperion blah blah won't relase blah due to blah (you get the idea).
Cheers mate.
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Ok. Few obvious questions cause your answer is 'in shedure and rocking' and I have learned to suspect anyone giving those:
A) Does it boot up to WorkBenck on PPC only .. (like CSPPC)?
B) Is that mentinoed 68k Intergation finished?
C) Can OS4 be demoed on Cebit?
D) ... running on Amigaone?
E) ... and using well known 68k apps?
I could comment about the worst part of development.. It's when during debugging you suddenly realize that all parts don't fit together as earlier was expected and some major parts of system goes to total rewriting. Are you surely pass that point that you know it'll all fits together and will work as expected?
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HyperionMP wrote:
This is not really newsworthy but I can assure all of you that OS 4 development is proceeding nicely.
That's good to hear, thanks!
(If you had phrased it "on schedule and rocking" we would have cocked our guns. ;) )
But I guess you posted this in response to the much discussed post by Ben Yoris on amigaimpact.com, which never questioned that development was proceeding.
Nearly all of the functionality described in the feature-list has now been implemented.
A team of 60+ people has been beta-testing [...]
Could you clarify a bit on this please? If all functionality hasn't been implemented, the OS can't be in beta-testing by definition. Are you talking about beta-testing of separate parts and modules?
It's however very hard to estimate exactly when OS 4 will hit end-users because we are committed to delivering a bug-free product but the idea that it won't be ready before the end of the year is completely off the mark.
So "when it's ready" has been narrowed down to "in 2003" then.
Since it looks like Yoris' post was originally in response to someone mentioning "March 2003", could you please clarify what this announcement (http://os.amiga.com/corporate/111902-exposure.shtml) was supposed to mean exactly. I'm referring to this part:
The first of these shows will be the official launch of the AmigaOne and AmigaOS4.0, to occur at the CeBit show in Germany in March (and before anyone asks, this does not mean this is the release date for AmigaOS4.0, it means that CeBit will be the public launch of it).
I wonder what the difference between "release" and "launch" is supposed to be. It's easy to see why this has caused confusion. If "launch" is not the same as "release", then what does it mean? "Announcing to the rest of the world that the AmigaOS4 project is in development", or what?
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I could comment about the worst part of development.. It's when during debugging you suddenly realize that all parts don't fit together as earlier was expected and some major parts of system goes to total rewriting. Are you surely pass that point that you know it'll all fits together and will work as expected?
I see you claiming an awful lot in recent times, exactly what
are your credentials here?
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@jd997uk:
jd997uk wrote:
There will be calls for Hyperion to show something, but since no company in their right sense shows an incomplete OS to the public (with the exception of M$ with Win95 ;~), there's no need at this time for any alarm.
If we hear _nothing at all_ for 6 months call me back.
I agree with you.
Once, I finished a software project until beta stadium and wanted to give it to our customer to test it and to see if it fits their needs. I gave the version number 0.80 I think. My project leader said: "When a program comes to the customer it has to be 1.0!" and named it version 1.0. Bloody idiot!!!
Hyperion doesn't work this way and I love it, when companies release full working products the way Amiga did it with every OS version.
Well done Hyperion and go on working like this!
Don't listen to those people blaming you, you're not going to release anything. I think many of us believe in you. I DO!
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Could you clarify a bit on this please? If all functionality hasn't been implemented, the OS can't be in beta-testing by definition. Are you talking about beta-testing of separate parts and modules?
Not really. At least in real life products almost always enter beta testing partially
complete.
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Ah we've had Seehund and JoannaK, now all we need
is Dammy and Strobe and we can all have a big re-union
trollfest and flamewar.
:-D
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Since i am working on Machinery manufacturing,this
"betatesting" of uncomplete systems can be done,
we all test all parts of each machine separately,
and when you join all together,you can left out more than
80% of problems,also is easier to solve problems on some
"module" in your real "workbench" than trying to solve it mixed with all the
metallic structure of the machine itself.if we only test each finished machine,
we just lose days and days of work leaving parts already
mounted,removing covers,leaving electrical installation,
fitting new pieces.this kind isn`t very pleasured, i can tell you for sure.
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I still wonder why Ben Yoris made that comment though. As i seem to recall from AmigaImpact, Ben always was positive in regards to AOne and OS4.
Also, i really don't understand the Cebit thing. I mean, they did announce a first showing at Cebit(launch / selling confusing). So is this still on? I mean, you announced, so the least you could do is say if this is still on, no?
I've got cash for a pc or AOne. And i'm really wondering what to do. Is it a question of summer, autumn,....? Oh well, who knows...
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DaveP,
Hey! I think both I and JoannaK asked quite relevant, honest and obvious questions about things that are unclear in HyperionMP's post and that "CeBIT in March" announcement.
There's no trolling or flamebaiting going on, and I think you see that there's no bad intentions or anything like that in my post. Maybe I'm oversensitive and you were referring to the zealot brigade (of whatever conviction) that always will frown at any questions at all and interpret everything as what they like to call "FUD", but those are better left ignored.
Actually, the first possible flamebait I've seen in this thread is your post. ;) (Although I can see and appreciate your tongue in cheek, you're playing with matches next to short fuses in this forum, I'm afraid.)
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z5 wrote:
I still wonder why Ben Yoris made that comment though. As i seem to recall from AmigaImpact, Ben always was positive in regards to AOne and OS4.
I don't see how Ben Y's post could be interpreted as negative criticism towards AmigaOS. All he said was that someone had misinterpreted "March 2003" as the release date for AmigaOS 4.0, and that he thought it would be next year instead, to which Ben Hermans replies that he definitely thinks it's in 2003.
I honestly don't understand the people shouting "FUD" or "lies" at absolutely anything.
Oh, another question to Hyperion, were you talking about the AmigaOS-release for CSPPCs or "AmigaOnes"?
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I'm sure OS 4 will be released when its good and ready. Not a moment before :-D
Still, it's good to see such an avid demand for its release!
As an aside, what proportion of existing Amiga users have a PPC/gfx card in their system?
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See...
Hyperion comes through again, out of the silence.
Are these good dudes, or what? ;-)
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I get the impression that it is quite a few. When you go on IRC you will find that theres more than you`d expect. Almost everybody seems to. I for one have PPC + GFX card. My Brother has PPC + Voodoo etc.
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Hi Seehund!
Yes my t-i-c attempt to lighten the atmos probably would light
it in that way ;-) Note I never said who the trollfest would
come from :-D
I'd love for Hyperion to produce detailed status reports but
the last time I saw a detailed "roadmap" and cared a toss
about it was the PhaseV one.
I am resigned to it will be done when it's done, the detailed
questions I don't think will get useful answers and nor do I
see them as being make or break issues.
But, if you do get detailed, useful answers I will read them with
interest but I wouldn't curse Hyperion if you don't get them.
In fact I wouldn't mind JoannaKs questions at all if they weren't
always ( at least in my memory which I admit can be
faulty here ) full of dubious assertions about product development.
Ive been in large scale product development for ooooh 10 years
6 months ago and I've never seen any project that didn't slip
or any adaption of so called hard and fast rules ( like what the
hardest bit of development is going to be ).
Complete design rewrites have rarely occurred ( once only in
the entire time I have been professionally employed ) and
on a product like AOS4 with a pre-existing codebase and
well known and documented "semantics" even less.
In fact if you consider that a 68k version of AOS4 used for integration
testing of function being a "simulator" and it works then the
semantics are agreed.
Questions can also be placed to create "unanswered questions"
and as a tool to spread fear and uncertainty....
Suffice to say we don't know the internal state and the internal
assumptions the project is based on, therefore no one is in
a state to judge.
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Yep Hyperion are cool!
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Same comments as i expected to see, and by that i mean that the recently seen ben Yoris post is FUD,
but since i know what developing means and that an OS is no easy task (havent mos been in dev since 1988 ? :)
so that means also if its delayed i have full understanding of it.
I rather have a FINISHED OS,than a beta version numbered OVER the final release,
and if the people here wants to see the damn os before its released , the n there is NDA's to sign.
And for all who still thinks that AMIGAOS4 is going to be released on A1 first.....well HAVENT you guys read any of the
official posts?? , is it all about flame??
and to people who doesnt understand modular based developing, well for that there is one answer! .. IS THERE ANY OTHER WAY? ..
unless there is 1 man involved in the development this is the only way , but sure someone (m$) likes the world to betatest and that
gives many of the flamers here something to talk about, or??
i wish hyperion the best of luck (yet again) and i belive they will give us a PROPER os
and not v.00000.100000000b , and v0.2 , v0.2b , v0.2c , v0.3, then a edit v0.1 and then v1.0 and then v1.3 , and then claim its
still beta so they rename it to v0.9b like someone else likes to do (no FUD)
before there is supposed to be more of this spam/fud #### i think that all here should sit back and relax , or is this a JOB for you?
cheers and i am sorry if i have startled someone in any way.
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nice one did not want to run linux on a1 till end of year ,its good to see your going to release it when it is bugfree this will be worth the wait.
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@lempkee:
before there is supposed to be more of this spam/fud #### i think that all here should sit back and relax , or is this a JOB for you?
While it may be easy for you to sit back and relax, some of us are, well, *were*, expecting a release in March. Yes I know, "launch" apparently does not mean "release" but in light of the *complete* lack of clarification regarding what "launch" actually means, I (perhaps stupidly, granted) assumed the implication was OS4 would be released *before* March. The wording of the announcement seemed to imply this to me.
Now, reading between the lines of the threads here, it seems it's the other way round. That has disappointed me. I appreciate the reasons for not giving a release date but impatience is creeping in. I for one, do not want a useless (for me) linux machine sitting there for eleven months. If it isn't going to be here for March/April, I'd probably be better spending the cash that I have *now* on a mac.
Basically I want a new computer. Ideally, I want an Amiga. So I ordered one in November. The money is still sitting in my bank account. I expect the machine to arrive next month. The OS, I was expecting by the month after that. Now I'm not so sure.
Al, if you're reading this, I may be joining you.
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nice one did not want to run linux on a1 till end of year ,its good to see your going to release it when it is bugfree this will be worth the wait.
Well, I think there is no such thing as bugfree. Maybe "no more known bugs", or "no major bugs". But there seems to always be a bug of sorts in any code no matter how good the coders who do the work. I am glad to see someone comment officially on the situation though. Thanks Ben H.
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DaveP wrote:
Yes my t-i-c attempt to lighten the atmos probably would light
it in that way ;-)
The people on amiga.org, ANN.lu et c. are deep-sea diving at the moment. We're breathing N2O. Don't light that match! :)
Note I never said who the trollfest would
come from :-D
Yeah, I was just overly sensitive. :)
I am resigned to it will be done when it's done, the detailed
questions I don't think will get useful answers and nor do I
see them as being make or break issues.
Same here really. But I think that what after all has been said really needs some clarifications, as right now some of it doesn't really make much sense. "When it's ready" is good enough for me, but now there's been some confusion about a... ummm... confusing announcement mentioning "March 2003" in a pretty ambiguous way (and just now "when it's ready" was apparently specified to "2003").
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Wilse wrote:
Yes I know, "launch" apparently does not mean "release" but in light of the *complete* lack of clarification regarding what "launch" actually means, I (perhaps stupidly, granted) assumed the implication was OS4 would be released *before* March. The wording of the announcement seemed to imply this to me.
Yeah, at the time (Nov. 2002) I interpreted this as "calm down people, it will be finished/released earlier, it's just the "LAUNCH" that will be AS LATE AS in March next year", and with Ben Hermans' name on it (and not just McEwen's) I took this announcement more seriously than the usual stuff posted on amiga.com.
Oh well.
If a release actually was intended in March, I guess this hullabaloo would be a way to announce a delay more gently:
- "It won't be ready in March."
- "No, don't listen to rumours, it will definitely be ready before 2004!" ;)
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@seehund
I believe that March 2003 was the target for everything
to be packaged and available.
Here we use traffic lights for identifying component status
and I would guess that something has slipped into "red" after
being in "amber".
I would also guess that it is going to be further petunia
delays ( at least petunia running on exec ) which to me
was always the weak point of the plan. I don't know how many
contingencies were built into the original plan ( say for
a different 68k instruction processor ) but I would guess
not many given the shoestring budget that all Amiga projects
are funded on.
It seems to me that every time Hyperion give a detailed
answer to a question it just causes a further explosion in the
"community" and if they don't then at least it applies the
brakes after initial criticism.
We probably need to make the Amiga the platform choice for
drug barons, that would give us a gauranteed flow of income
in sizeable chunks.... ;-)
Who is prepared to go into business with me and buy a whole
load of second hand powerbooks and get license agreement
for AOS4 on it? :-D
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Hi Seehund:
Yeah, at the time (Nov. 2002) I interpreted this as "calm down people, it will be finished/released earlier, it's just the "LAUNCH" that will be AS LATE AS in March next year", and with Ben Hermans' name on it (and not just McEwen's) I took this announcement more seriously than the usual stuff posted on amiga.com.
This is exactly what I meant. I'm a bit grumpy today, so I'm being perhaps a little more critical and cynical than usual. I just really don't want to wait much longer than March.
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HyperionMP wrote:
This is not really newsworthy but I can assure all of you that OS 4 development is proceeding nicely.
Nearly all of the functionality described in the feature-list has now been implemented.
A team of 60+ people has been beta-testing and localising since quite some time and the number of outstanding bugs in Bugzilla has been going down steadily.
It's however very hard to estimate exactly when OS 4 will hit end-users because we are committed to delivering a bug-free product but the idea that it won't be ready before the end of the year is completely off the mark.
The worst (in development terms) is now behind us.
Thx for the infos.:-)
Anyway i hope that OS4 will be relased soon because i can't wait anymore :-(
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I`m sooo fed up waiting too! :-D
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lempkee wrote:
Same comments as i expected to see, and by that i mean that the recently seen ben Yoris post is FUD
The nice thing, there is no contradiction. No one said (till now) that Ben Yoris' post was FUD. The only important thing is that OS4 is in development, and not what elements are still in the TODO list, and what estimates one makes from insider knowledge.
Isn't enough for you that they do everyting in their power to finish it? Yoris never said OS4 development cancelled, whatever, just that a few important elements are still missing, and estimated a later release date than the one of the "fans" and AInc. And made his post to avoid disillusion... A rather positive move in my eyes.
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This announcement by Hyperion means exactly nothing.
All the sheep out there who take a pat on the head and a scooby snack in place of real news should be ashamed of themselves.
It is FLAT wrong to say that Hyperion cannot release real news, or that real news about Windows beta's are not released.
I am repeatedly amazed at how people invent excuses on the behalf of Hyperion and on the other side, Genesi......its truly astonishing.
The JIT emulation is a key point, if its hyperion's opinion that all the key features are implemented, but JIT emulation is not....wellllll I think every reasonable person in the world would say the most important feature is NOT emulated and it could take six months to complete that.
He can say if its completed, if its completed....certainly if its not completed, he will have to be silent, because it WILL be interpreted as a major problem...and rightly so...that is a major problem.
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@Warface:
The nice thing, there is no contradiction.
It could be seen as nice, or not nice, depending on one's priorities.
The only important thing is that OS4 is in development,
Granted, that is a good thing. However, I would like at least an estimated release date. If it is going to be several more months away, I'd rather know now, so I could spend my cash on something else. I'll almost certainly buy it when it's released anyway.
What I don't want is to have spent all my currently available funds on something I'm not going to be able to use for the best part of a year. If I get an A1, OS4 is delayed for many months *and* Genesi won't release Morphos for the A1, then I will be in precisely that position.
Events leading up to this lead me to believe that I'd be able to run MorphOS on my A1 if OS4 was late. That would have suited me fine. Now that is not going to happen but I thought that OS4 would be here for March anyway, so what's another month or so when I've waited this long? Now, I don't know.
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MarkTime wrote:
He can say if its completed, if its completed....certainly if its not completed, he will have to be silent, because it WILL be interpreted as a major problem...and rightly so...that is a major problem.
I disagree with that. It can be integrated in 1 to 6 months. They may right be on schedule, the question is how mature the parts and modules waiting for integration are. I see nothing new. Some may estimate they may be ready for march, some not. Nothing changed...
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Yes, we do disagree. Writing a new HDToolBox is cool, some new graphics libraries, cool....it is true OS 3.9 is very aged and 4.0 needs new modules and libraries.
But anyone could have done that...that is just no so hard. As proof, I offer the fact that littered across aminet are all kinds of improved tools....they just aren't the 'official' direction, but writing an improved tool is something many a hobbyist has done over the years.
And pulling the 68k emulator out of UAE and renaming it 'petunia' wasn't all the hard either.
The most difficult thing, and the challenge that will earn Hyperion great respect, is if they can implement a seemless 68k emulator into the OS.
Its been done before, Apple did it many years ago, and MorphOS has done it.
But its still THE most major thing....all the other things are simple in comparison, and if they haven't done it, then its a really really big deal, and it appears they haven't done it.
I agree with you, nothing has really changed. The true believers still believe, the rest of us wait and wait, as it is delayed and delayed.
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@Marktime
I`m as a betatester,cannot reveal nothing,but i know
that you haven`t a clue about what you are talking about
Maybe the Big problem that you are telling about petunia
isn`t such a problem,and another issues that you never imagines
can be more difficult than this,so please,Stop spreading FUD and feeding
a little bit this thread,that can be done until infinite if you want,
but stop talking about things that you not knows.
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HEHE Some people just don`t have a clue do they!
:lol:
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Yes,I know,my english isn`t too good.
Sorry.
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@ami
I think others have certainly said it better than me....already...here is what we know
OS 4 is not ready.
No one knows when it will be ready.
That is THE problem. As a technical person I would certainly find interest in the details of the technical issues, but as a consumer, I know all I need to know:
I can't buy it, I can't budget for it.
In that regard, nothing has changed from the Boris post, we knew these things before.
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oh dear, you are a beta tester for OS 4, it must be the high point in your life.
I know how you feel, I was a beta tester for 'toon talk'....I still remember those days so fondly... :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o
I wonder whatever happened to toon talk anyway....
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No,maybe isn`t the high point of my life,but I
never talk about something that i do NOT know
for sure.That`s simple,i think.
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@marktime
I have no idea how it's test OS4 but at the time Commodore was still doing fine I worked on small company that were part of their 'Commercial Developer Program' .. Thanks to that we also get those early docs and OS1.4 (later 2.0) beta releases.
At that time it was all a bit different... Getting beta-OS's on diskettes alongside paper copies of early devdocs of new features of OS. Having e-mails using private Uucp network (= Long distance dialup modems). And yes.. at that time it was great :-P
@davep .. I could go on and on and tell what I do these days and how I learned to distrust certain companies but then other people here would attack me on repeating myself on time too many. :-D
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"And pulling the 68k emulator out of UAE and renaming it 'petunia' wasn't all the hard either."
I'm no coder, but all I've heard leads me to conclude that isn't as easy as you think... JIT engine is very CPU specific
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And pulling the 68k emulator out of UAE and renaming it 'petunia' wasn't all the hard either.
I want to know how you will get x86 running on a PPC...
Petunia is coded from scratch to run optimally on the PowerPC. I don't know how it compares to other 68k->PPC JITs yet, but that isn't the point.
Don't comment on things you don't have a clue about.
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MarkTime wrote:
And pulling the 68k emulator out of UAE and renaming it 'petunia' wasn't all the hard either.
You are quite obviously completely clueless.
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@Ami603
No no that thing I said before wasn`t aimed at you. It was aimed at the guy above you. Sorry. English isn`t your first language so we all understand. Better than my Spanish, I`ll tell you. :-)
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Quote from JoannaK
@marktime
I have no idea how it's test OS4 but at the time Commodore was still doing fine I worked on small company that were part of their 'Commercial Developer Program' .. Thanks to that we also get those early docs and OS1.4 (later 2.0) beta releases.
...
One shouldn’t expect that particular regime with another administration.
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Somehow I think operating like Commodore may prove to be a slight disadvantage. :-)
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@joannak
"@davep .. I could go on and on and tell what I do these days and how I learned to distrust certain companies but then other people here would attack me on repeating myself on time too many. "
Maybe a free pass can be arranged from the flame-kidz. I'm all ears!
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@Nick:
No problem, i was also a little bit out of context.
:evil::crazy:
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Is there AOS4 beta for A1 available for those selected betatesters?
Is it still possible to become a AmigaOS4.0 betatester?
That would be the only reason for me to get the AmigaOne before AOS4.0 is finished.
(and I would be happy if I could do something to help to get the AOS4 working... I do have work experience from some well over 10 (successfull) SW projects...)
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woah! time to celebrate with...well... you know with what... ;-)
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420Dude wrote:
woah! time to celebrate with...well... you know with what... ;-)
I think you've had a little to much of that puple smoke... ;-)
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@ksk
You'd probably be better off contacting hyperion staff directly about betatesting.
/Björn