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AuthorTopic: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4  (Read 39992 times)

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Offline Iggy

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #375 on: August 26, 2017, 06:00:19 PM »
Quote from: grond;830066
Are you referring to the famous Bluegrass act?

No, the inventors of the Stanley Steamer automobile, who interviewed customers to see if they were right for their car.

Quote from: wawrzon;830068
@kolla
ok, we already really well know how gunnar is ignorant and hurting people who know better, how he should proceed with his project. and good to know, that an amiga compatible is not capable of running a linux distro, because it is very important for every true amiga user to run linux on his hardware. thanks for pointing this out constantly.

Screw Linux, you can't run BSD either.
I can run Linux on my PPC hardware, but BSD has been part of our history for a long time.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 06:02:36 PM by Iggy »
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Offline Kronos

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Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #376 on: August 26, 2017, 07:13:42 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;830073

Screw Linux, you can't run BSD either.
I can run Linux on my PPC hardware, but BSD has been part of our history for a long time.


BSD is YALD for 99.99% of those that might be concerned..........

What Gunnar fails to see, no matter how good the Vampire will turn out, it will never be anything that people need.

It might be something that some people want, but that number is reduced everyday has rants or refuses to listen to his potential costumers.


Personally I'm somehow more impressed with the idea of the FPGArcarde guys, use an rPi as an 68k CPU in combination with an FPGA-AGA chipset.......
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline kolla

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #377 on: August 26, 2017, 07:28:02 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;830068
@kolla
ok, we already really well know how gunnar is ignorant and hurting people who know better, how he should proceed with his project.

He is not hurting anyone, this is a splash in a fish pond.
He is also not ignorant, but a lot of the "minions" indeed are.

Quote
and good to know, that an amiga compatible is not capable of running a linux distro, because it is very important for every true amiga user to run linux on his hardware. thanks for pointing this out constantly.

You are welcome.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5¬e=7064

The job of the MMU of the Apollo Core, is to map memory so that it makes sense for AmigaOS (and map it differently when running Atari TOS), do funny stuff like keeping a copy of chip ram available in fast ram for faster access, map out "video ram" for the P96 driver (I guess), provide DMA for various I/O, map kickstart into memory at right address etc (I suppose it is the MPU that protects the kickstart). All without the operating system being involved, for all practical purposes turning the operating system into an embedded applience. And soon with multithreading - in essence do what ARM processors are doing on Minimig, MiST and MiSTer, only doing it with 68k code - hardware abstraction, not within AmigaOS, but under it. All this makes old debugging tools pointless, since they can only see what AmigaOS sees, and that may be far from what actually is going on. Unlike on "real" Amiga.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 07:31:08 PM by kolla »
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Offline Zooz

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #378 on: August 27, 2017, 09:39:03 AM »
Map it differently when running Atari TOS => this is false, the vampire do not map any atari stuff.

Map out "video ram" for the P96 driver => this is false, video memory is allocated at end of fastram (MEMF_REVERSE) by default, just that. The video can address any allocated memory with MEMF_FAST|MEMF_PUBLIC.

That gunnar do not brings now a mmu is because, one again, prios are elsewhere at moment.

Again, i see kolla continues to insult vampire users as so called minions, which seriously starts to bother me, he indeed desperately needs a life.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 10:12:18 AM by Zooz »
 

Offline Niding

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #379 on: August 27, 2017, 09:57:17 AM »
Quote from: Zooz;830085
and map it differently when running Atari TOS => this is false, the vampire do not map any atari stuff.

map out "video ram" for the P96 driver => false, video memory is allocated at end of fastram (MEMF_REVERSE), just that. the video can address any ram from any allocated memory with MEMF_FAST|MEMF_PUBLIC.

and that gunnar do not brings now a mmu is because, one again, prios are elsewhere at moment.

again, i see kolla continues to insult vampire users as so called minions, which seriously starts to bother me, he indeed desperately needs a life.


Well, kolla says alot/some of Vampire users are ignorant, which depends how you define it.
I most certainly feel quite ignorant about the inner workings of both AOS and 68k hardware. I coded some ASM back in the 90s, but has forgotten it all basically. So in kollas world Im one of those ignorants. Thats fine. I dont care what he thinks, just like he doesnt  care what I think.
I personally look at what I currently need from a computer, just like he does. Vampire works just fine for my personal needs, and thats what is my refrencepoint. A computer is a tool, not a religious icon.

I realise that some developers have issues with the lack of MMU for debugging purposes, and as a non-developer I cant speak to that point. Is there ways around this issue, or will it require new tools to get around it?

But these subjective stabs isnt really helping anyone. Personally I cant be bothered reading or posting forums much anymore, cause they usually just stray off course, instead of staying objective. And to be fair, that goes for people very much in favour of Vampire too.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #380 on: August 27, 2017, 10:16:51 AM »
Quote from: Niding;830086
So in kollas world Im one of those ignorants.


No, you are not. Rather the contrary, you are probably the most moderate and decent person writing and posting about Vampire and Apollo Core. There are a few others who go out of their way with caps-lock and exclamation marks on the apollo core forum, and ironically none of them even have Vampire cards AFAIK.
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Offline kolla

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #381 on: August 27, 2017, 10:32:03 AM »
Quote from: Zooz;830085
Map it differently when running Atari TOS => this is false, the vampire do not map any atari stuff.

Not currently, but it was to work in (or as) an Atari ST, that would be the way to go.

Quote
2016-10-14. - 13:53:22 Vampire seems to be working on ATARI.. So yes why not make a ATARI release too.. Looks not that complicated only include TOS and set the MMU table to match ATARI memory map

I take it Gunnar knows what he talks about?

Quote
Map out "video ram" for the P96 driver => this is false, video memory is allocated at end of fastram (MEMF_REVERSE) by default, just that. The video can address any allocated memory with MEMF_FAST|MEMF_PUBLIC.

Allright, fine, I was guessing, I said so. How is that memory mapped to the framebuffer?

Quote
That gunnar do not brings now a mmu is because, one again, prios are elsewhere at moment.

Gunnar has repeated over and over that the Apollo Core has MMU, and it makes total sense that it does.

Quote
Again, i see kolla continues to insult vampire users as so called minions, which seriously starts to bother me, he indeed desperately needs a life.

Vampire users are not the minions, the minions typically don't even have Vampire boards, but wow do they plan to! ;)  Mind you, I am a Vampire user myself.

And I am quite content with my life thank you.
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Offline kolla

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #382 on: August 27, 2017, 10:53:02 AM »
Quote from: Niding;830086
I realise that some developers have issues with the lack of MMU for debugging purposes, and as a non-developer I cant speak to that point. Is there ways around this issue, or will it require new tools to get around it?

It requires new tools, as Gunnar has said many times. I am not sure, but doesn't such new tool also exist, using the MPU? I cannot recall. The way the Vampire works, it solves many issues that normally is solved by the operating system, in hardware instead. Naturally, as the people involved are hardware people. If the Apollo Core MMU was exposed to Amiga OS, and programs could poke around in it, the Amiga would stop working. Gunnar's words.

Oh, the "solving things in hardware" thing is another reason why many developers are not so happy about Vampire, it puts limits on what "dirty tricks" you can do with software.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 11:06:23 AM by kolla »
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A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
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A600/Apollo630/32MB
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CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #383 on: August 27, 2017, 12:06:18 PM »
Quote from: kolla;830087
There are a few others who go out of their way with caps-lock and exclamation marks


look, what you describe isnt a pattern with whoever is a vampire interested audience. you described a generic "fanboi" (or whatever it is called) who will hype whatever he sees an opportunity in. the particulars have usually been banned everywhere else, having previously hyped beyond reason and recognition something completely different.

Quote
the minions typically don't even have Vampire boards, but wow do they plan to!


yeah, here goes another characteristic of the kind, as if anybody was concerned to know their opinion or whatever they want to buy or not every other post.

do i need to mention, that i dont have a vampire an im still hesitant, if ill be ever getting one;)?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 08:06:56 PM by wawrzon »
 

Offline Zooz

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #384 on: August 27, 2017, 03:20:16 PM »
@kolla

About Atari, well ok, this was old discuss, never applied. Currentely there seems to be more opportunities to run FreeMiNT upon EmuTOS, at native speed, on SAGA screen (already working and demo'ed).

About the video memory, the framebuffer is the FastRAM, there is no intermediates from a coder/user point of view, what you poke is what you see, there is no recopy or mapping needed.

About MMU, i totally agree the discuss about the need to provide debugging tools. That said, and not having a MMU on my vamp, i (had to) learn how to do without, and there is many way to debug without a MMU with some good or bad habbits. Also using UAE as companion, helps in this task.

I might have misunderstood about the minions, sorry then, english is not my native language, thus i agree there are such guys on the apollo forums, yes.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 03:25:14 PM by Zooz »
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #385 on: August 27, 2017, 08:15:07 PM »
Quote from: Zooz;830098
Currentely there seems to be more opportunities to run FreeMiNT upon EmuTOS, at native speed, on SAGA screen (already working and demo'ed).


funny enough atari people are far more reasonable in applying their available open options that the majority of amiga crowd. i really envy these people. their practical approach gains my full sympathy.

Quote
That said, and not having a MMU on my vamp, i (had to) learn how to do without, and there is many way to debug without a MMU with some good or bad habbits. Also using UAE as companion, helps in this task.


vamp or no vamp, me mostly working on aros68k would be great to find out some way or share experience on debugging stuff, except of having a to put a debug statement every other function in the code. on aros we have gdb, but i have never got it working reliably with 68k.

Quote
I might have misunderstood about the minions, sorry then, english is not my native language, thus i agree there are such guys on the apollo forums, yes.


we cannot reduce a wider community to some maybe not so positive examples.
 

Offline Nickman

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #386 on: August 28, 2017, 07:46:52 PM »
Go online on irc and speak with flype.
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=2258
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Offline Rotzloeffel

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #387 on: August 29, 2017, 08:38:38 AM »
Quote from: kolla;830088
 Mind you, I am a Vampire user myself.

Me too :D And for me, there is absolutely no need for this massiv speed, running "old" Software.... There is a need for this massiv speed for doing grazy things with your Amiga, as I did in the past or do actually on my 060 and my PPC´s.... (NetBSD/Linux :) )

And, doing these grazy things requieres to have a compatible MMU and an FPU.... so for me, I still waiting for these both features.... meanwhile I have no usefull aplication which would require a Vampire :laughing:

for playing video, you can use a stock A500... thanks to AVI4HV :) check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2fUj14mF40
and how do do it for example on Linux :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2fUj14mF40
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:52:09 AM by Rotzloeffel »
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Offline BozzerBigD

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #388 on: August 29, 2017, 10:21:09 AM »
@Rotzloeffel

AGA support, the ability to play AB3D 2 at a decent speed and with FPU support the ability to render faster on Lightwave. These seem to be the good points for me. I already have an 060 & RTG enabled big box Amiga so this isn't primarily aimed at me.
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."

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Offline Rotzloeffel

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #389 on: August 29, 2017, 10:51:48 AM »
Quote from: BozzerBigD;830203
@Rotzloeffel

AGA support, the ability to play AB3D 2 at a decent speed and with FPU support the ability to render faster on Lightwave.

That´s what I said.... no FPU no grazy things :) same with MMU...

If these applications you mentioned above are "grazy Things" for you, it is OK....

For me, the 68080 is the fastest available 68k CPU... why not use it for existing grazy 68k applications WITHOUT limits ?
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