Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: sim085 on April 20, 2012, 09:38:32 AM
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Hello, I have a few new PC floppy disks which work fine on PC. I would like to format these in such a way that I can use them as Amiga floppy disks (not to transfer files between PC and Amiga, but to use them as if Amiga floppy disks).
I had a similar thread in the past but what was suggested then is not working. I have Windows7. I insert the floppy disk and then from command promt I enter the following command:
FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:9
However I get the following output
H:\>FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:9
Insert new disk for drive A:
and press ENTER when ready...
The type of the file system is RAW.
The new file system is FAT.
Formatting 720K
Invalid media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable.
Does anyone know if I can format a PC disk to use it as an Amiga disk? or this is not possible?
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Maybe try using double density floppies (although I've used HD without issues in the past).
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If you want to format floppies with an Amiga file system on a PC then you need a hardware solution such as the Catweasel. Otherwise it is just not possible. (You can always do that on an Amiga though...)
If you want to format floppies with a PC file system (e.g. FAT16) that you can then use on both the PC and the Amiga (with CrossDOS) then you need either Double Density floppies or High Density floppies with a sellotape on the second hole. It is simpler to just format them on the Amiga - if you have CrossDOS installed simply select to format the PC0: (instead of DF0:).
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I just re-read the part where you said 'not to transfer files'. As Amigean said, no way on a PC. I never had much luck with my Catweasel either to be honest.
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I never had much luck with my Catweasel either to be honest.
That must be the software then - the Catweasel reads and writes Amiga disks just fine under OS 4. :)
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If you want to format floppies with a PC file system (e.g. FAT16) that you can then use on both the PC and the Amiga (with CrossDOS) then you need either Double Density floppies or High Density floppies with a sellotape on the second hole. It is simpler to just format them on the Amiga - if you have CrossDOS installed simply select to format the PC0: (instead of DF0:).
I do not want to use the disks for the PC, just for the Amiga? does that change anything? Or I still need CrossDOS?
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I do not want to use the disks for the PC, just for the Amiga? does that change anything? Or I still need CrossDOS?
nope just format them on the amiga and you will be fine ive been using hd floppys for a while and had no problems. The only thing is you will only be using 880k of the 1.44 mb on the disks, But that is all the amiga floppy drive can do.
If you are wanting to transfer adf to real floppys might i suggest TSGUI it works brillianly for transfering ADF images back to real floppy disks. :)
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Go for TransADF-GUI if you also want to use RAD: as a temporary floppy disk. TSGui can't do that.
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I dont have Win 7, so I'm not sure, but on Win XP I can't format disks as Double Density 720Kb. First try to cover the High Density hole (HD disks have 2 holes, cover them both)
The way I would do it is to format the disks in Amiga first. You will need OS3 with PC0: installed (or CrossDos). Insert the disk and click on the PC0:???? icon, then select format.
Even if you can't format on win XP, or maybe 7, you should be able to read and write to it on those Win machines.
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You will need OS3 with PC0: installed (or CrossDos)
nope just format them on the amiga
So is it just a question of cover the High Density hole insert in the Amiga and click format? Or I still need CrossDos or some other tool? My aim is to have disks which I can boot from. From what I found out on the net, using CrossDos to format a disk means you'll need CrossDos to read the content of that disk and therefore impossible to use such disks unless in Workbench.
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First you need to tell us what Amiga you have, what Workbench/Kickstart version and how much ram? Then we can find a proper solution.
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Yes, just click format. No need to worry about the HD hole if your just using an A1200 (or any Amiga without a HD drive)
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First you need to tell us what Amiga you have, what Workbench/Kickstart version and how much ram? Then we can find a proper solution.
A500+ with Workbench 3.1, 2MB ChipRAM, and 8MB FastRAM.
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You can not boot from PC disks, but you can use them to copy files from PC to Amiga. Mostly I used them to copy LHA files to Amiga.
To make your workbench read PC disks, go to "Sys:Storage/DosDrivers" folder and copy file labeled PC0 to Sys: Devs/DosDrivers, that's it.
Reboot the Amiga and it should work.
When you insert a disk you should see 2 disk icons, one an typical floppy icon and other PC0:????, when you click on that icon and select format, that disk will be readable on PC.
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You can not boot from PC disks, but you can use them to copy files from PC to Amiga. Mostly I used them to copy LHA files to Amiga.
To make your workbench read PC disks, go to "Sys:Storage/DosDrivers" folder and copy file labeled PC0 to Sys: Devs/DosDrivers, that's it.
Reboot the Amiga and it should work.
When you insert a disk you should see 2 disk icons, one an typical floppy icon and other PC0:????, when you click on that icon and select format, that disk will be readable on PC.
Thank you :) that is good to know, I will try it out. Regarding booting from disk; the only option is pure Amiga Floppy disks then! Thanks again for the help and explanation.
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I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread, and not alone from sim085.
First of all, there are no "PC" or "amiga" floppies. The disks are exactly the same physically. There are however double density (up to 1MB unformatted size) and high density (up to 2MB unformatted size) floppies (some higher density ones do exist as well, but are rather rare). It's perfectly possible to use the higher density floppies in place of the lower density ones.
The PC floppy controller is much more rigid and doesn't allow as flexible track layout as amiga (technical: Amiga can write full tracks with whatever track layout desired, PC controller cannot). Thus you can use amiga to format disks to PC format (720KB or 1.44MB if you have a HD drive), but not the other way around. Unless if you go for specialized hardware you cannot write or format floppies to amiga format on a PC.
If you wish to format any floppies for amiga use, just format them on amiga. That's it.
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Transferring files between amiga and PC is another topic, and there using PC formatted 720KB floppies with CrossDOS is one option, albeit not necessarily the best one.
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If you wish to format any floppies for amiga use, just format them on amiga. That's it.
But will I be able to boot from such floppy disks? or I will need a tool like CrossDos to read such floppy disks?
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But will I be able to boot from such floppy disks? or I will need a tool like CrossDos to read such floppy disks?
If you format the floppy (DD or HD) on the Amiga as a standard Amiga disk, you can boot from it...
Once formatted, it's an Amiga disk..
(You might need to "install df0:" the disk to make it bootable, depending on what you want to put on it..)
One question for those in the know, does it make a difference if a floppy is a retrofited PC floppy drive and it's a HD floppy?
I know some people have PC drives modded for Amiga use. Those drives have the detector for DD or HD.
In that situation, would someone have to cover the HD hole on the floppy to not trigger the sensor, or is the Amiga going to ignore it anyway, since it doesn't know what to do with it?
Depends on the kickstart???
Just wondering..
desiv
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But will I be able to boot from such floppy disks?
After you use the c:install command to install the bootblock, yes.
To reiterate: the disks are physically exactly the same, it does not matter where they originate from.
There are no "PC" floppies or "Amiga" floppies. They're exactly the same.
What matters is how you format them. If you format them to amiga disk format they're perfectly normal amiga disks. You can boot from them just fine.
or I will need a tool like CrossDos to read such floppy disks?
No
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After you use the c:install command to install the bootblock, yes.
How do you do that?
At the moment I am doing as follows:
1. Insert the floppy disk which works fine on PC, I get an icon DF0:????
2. Select icon DF0:???? and go to Icon > Format Disk ...
3. Here I get the following information printed:
Current Information: Device DF0, 880 Capacity
4. I select none of the checkboxes and click format.
5. I get warning box that all data will be lost and click format.
6. Icon on desktop change to DF0:Busy
7. I get error message saying "Couldn't format cylinder 0"
... What am I doing wrong?? This happens on all PC floppy disks I have which work fine on PC.
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Have you tried cleaning your drive?
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Have you tried cleaning your drive?
All my new "amiga" disks load without any problem... format "amiga" disks work without any priblem ... so do not thing it is a problem of cleaning.
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All my new "amiga" disks load without any problem... so do not thing it is a problem of cleaning ...
If it's an HD floppy, try covering the HD hole on the top left of the floppy.
desiv
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If it's an HD floppy, try covering the HD hole on the top left of the floppy.
used transaprent sellotape (is this good?) but still got error "Couldn't format cylinder 0".
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used transaprent sellotape (is this good?) but still got error "Couldn't format cylinder 0".
Perhaps your drive can read, but not write to disks (damage?).
Can you take a known, working Amiga floppy disk and format it in your Amiga?
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used transaprent sellotape (is this good?) but still got error "Couldn't format cylinder 0".
Should be.
If there is a sensor (and most Amiga drives, being non HD, don't have one) it's a little button, so the tape should keep it at bay..
So, you can format other disks on the Amiga, just not these disks?
And you can format these on the PC?
That is weird..
What if you try a QUICK format?
(I'm looking at a 1.3 OS currently)
From a Shell, type:
format DRIVE df0: NAME Data QUICK
(I think that's right)...
desiv
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What if you try a QUICK format?
(I'm looking at a 1.3 OS currently)
From a Shell, type:
format DRIVE df0: NAME Data QUICK
(I think that's right)...
Command looks ok, but did not work either. Note I am trying to format more then one "pc" floppy and none are working... all fail on cylinder 0, while on PC I did manage to format them.
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all fail on cylinder 0, while on PC I did manage to format them.
And you can format DD floppies on the Amiga fine?
(So we know the Amiga drive is OK)
desiv
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Its possible. Just use cell tape to cover extra hole that is not for write protection and format them on real Amiga Classic 880K floppy
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So is it just a question of cover the High Density hole insert in the Amiga and click format? Or I still need CrossDos or some other tool? My aim is to have disks which I can boot from. From what I found out on the net, using CrossDos to format a disk means you'll need CrossDos to read the content of that disk and therefore impossible to use such disks unless in Workbench.
That's the problem, as long as your Amiga drive is in 100% great shape. The high density disks have more tracks, that are much smaller than the double density disks - so alignment, etc. is more important than ever.
But as long as you cover that HD hole, they should work on your Amiga.
PS - do not use transparent tape! The drive may still "see" the hole. Use electrical tape.
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I have another idea,
Go here http://bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm get win95 or dos bootdisk.
Boot with one of those disks, then use the command to format for 720K disks.
Some Amiga drives don't like to format HD disks, maybe that's the problem.
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The high density disks have more tracks
No they don't. They have exactly the same 80 tracks.
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I have another idea,
Go here http://bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm get win95 or dos bootdisk.
Boot with one of those disks, then use the command to format for 720K disks.
Some Amiga drives don't like to format HD disks, maybe that's the problem.
The OP wants Amiga formatted disks, so this won't work.
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If you want to use a floppy disk on an Amiga, first you need to make sure your floppy drive is working, so test with a known good disk.
Second, don't bother trying to use a PC unless you have a Catweasel. Use an Amiga; a PC can do it but it's very complicated and you need two disk drives.
Thirdly, use Double Density disks, not High Density. It may work on certain HD disks but don't be surprised if it fails to format; even if it does format, expect to lose data. Sometimes you get lucky, and an HD disk will work for a while, but never trust data to one. HD disks require a stronger magnetic field than DD disks, so your old A500 drive probably can't magnetise the surface enough.
You shouldn't have any trouble if you follow that. There's nothing special about Amiga disks or Amiga drives, it's the controller that's special.
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No they don't. They have exactly the same 80 tracks.
I'll be damned. I guess I must have look at the 135 tpi years ago, and misread that as the number of tracks. Thank you for pointing that out.
That makes this question all the confusing for me then. Why are HD disks so hard to use on (some?) Amigas? After reading the DD and HD disks specs, it does not look there should be any problem.
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They use a different magnetic material for the disk surface....
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Hello, I have a few new PC floppy disks which work fine on PC. I would like to format these in such a way that I can use them as Amiga floppy disks (not to transfer files between PC and Amiga, but to use them as if Amiga floppy disks).
I had a similar thread in the past but what was suggested then is not working. I have Windows7. I insert the floppy disk and then from command promt I enter the following command:
FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:9
However I get the following output
H:\>FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:9
Insert new disk for drive A:
and press ENTER when ready...
The type of the file system is RAW.
Hi,
Windows does not have a flexible system, by that I mean on formatting disks it can only format 1.44 megs. Even to format 720K disks for the PC platform you have to jump through hoops today. Most PC's today don't even have a floppy disk attachment on them, I have to use a usb floppy on mine.
So you can not in any manner shape or form format an Amiga floppy on a PC.
EXCEPT
If you buy a cat weasel, and are intelligent enough to read the instructions and use it. (sorry I had to put that in since intelligence runs rampant on amiga.org)
So
1. Formating an Amiga disk on a PC machine without added hardware -- not possible.
2. Using added hardware like Cat Weasel -- possible, if you have an IQ for it.
3. Formatting any size PC disk on an Amiga if you have a high density drive (1.44 meg) -- possible.
The new file system is FAT.
Formatting 720K
Invalid media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable.
Does anyone know if I can format a PC disk to use it as an Amiga disk? or this is not possible?
Yes, but only Amiga makes it possible. (880k drive = 720k pc, HD drive = 1.44 & 720k)
smerf
hope you loonies can understand this, if not I will try to make it simpler.
Please read whole blocked paragraph above, my answers to each question is answered within.
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Yes, but only Amiga makes it possible. (880k drive = 720k pc, HD drive = 1.44 & 720k)
smerf
hope you loonies can understand this, if not I will try to make it simpler.
Please read whole blocked paragraph above, my answers to each question is answered within.
Another sexual intellectual, huh?
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The OP wants Amiga formatted disks, so this won't work.
Sometimes Amiga does not like HD disks formatted in DD (I have seen that), maybe if you format them to 720k first then you may be able to format to 880k in Amiga.
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Yes, but only Amiga makes it possible. (880k drive = 720k pc, HD drive = 1.44 & 720k)
Drive mechanisms aren't 880K. As far as I know Amigas can format double density floppies as 1MB (MFM). The controller on the computer's side determines this. Using GCR, you can fit even more on a DD floppy.
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diskspare.device lets you to format 960/984k disks on Amiga.
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Thirdly, use Double Density disks, not High Density.
This is a fair point, even though the disks are similar and you might get lucky, it much depends on the specific media and the health of the drive. For instance when things start to get out of calibration the first thing to fail are the "borderline" media.
HD disks require a stronger magnetic field than DD disks, so your old A500 drive probably can't magnetise the surface enough.
Actually it's the other way around: DD recording strength is higher than HD.
There are ton of information regarding why it may or may not fail. Here's some good discussion with some great information:
http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/guzis.html
In short: If only possible use genuine DD media. Or if not possible make sure to properly erase the floppies before use.
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A short clip:
3.5" DS2D and DSHD media are very close in terms of the magnetic properties of the coating. DS2D media generally is coated with an oxide coating with a coercivity of about 660 Oersteds (Oe); DSHD media uses a coating with coercivity of 720 Oe, so it's only a bit "stiffer" magnetically speaking. DSHD also generally uses a smaller particle size, which isn't bad for DS2D use.
So far, so good--it looks as if the HD media will serve passably even if the write current in double-density mode isn't quite as high (lower-coercivity = lower write current needed to "flip" the domains). By the same token, a 2D diskette should work passably in an HD application (bring up any memories of the "puncher" accessories that used to be popular?). [These punches were sold for people to convert then-popular DD diskettes into "looking" like then-rare and expensive HD diskettes, with mixed results. - Herb]
Where things start to get interesting is in the coating thickness. DS2D coats the cookie with a layer about 1.9 microns (um) thick. By comparison the average fine human hair is about 25-30 um thick. (Hair diameter depends on the person and the type of hair, the range is pretty wide; from about 12 to over 100 um for a single hair diameter).
However, the problem arises that DSHD media uses a coating about half that thickness (0.9 um). This is why the cookie in a DSHD 3.5" diskette seems almost transparent if you hold it up to a strong light, while the DS2D variety is opaque
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Thanks to everyone for the replies. As I said the relative new "amiga" floppy disks format fine. The very old "amiga" floppy disks (which data is also corrupt) don't format. Then I found some "amiga" floppy disks which when format give an error on some cylinder and then when I format again give an error on another cylinder and the previous cylinder is formatted successfully. The “pc” floppy disks never work and format always fail on cylinder zero.
I understand this might be a problem with the age and amount of dust in the drive … therefore I was wondering; does anyone know how to clean the floppy drive?? need to use any special liquid??
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The OP wants Amiga formatted disks, so this won't work.
Thanks to everyone for the replies. As I said the relative new "amiga" floppy disks format fine. The very old "amiga" floppy disks (which data is also corrupt) don't format. Then I found some "amiga" floppy disks which when format give an error on some cylinder and then when I format again give an error on another cylinder and the previous cylinder is formatted successfully. The “pc” floppy disks never work and format always fail on cylinder zero.
I understand this might be a problem with the age and amount of dust in the drive … therefore I was wondering; does anyone know how to clean the floppy drive?? need to use any special liquid??
If you are not affraid to open you floppy drive then you can use cotton swabs and 91% isopropyl alcohol. Just swab both heads clean.
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Hello, I have a few new PC floppy disks which work fine on PC. I would like to format these in such a way that I can use them as Amiga floppy disks (not to transfer files between PC and Amiga, but to use them as if Amiga floppy disks).
I had a similar thread in the past but what was suggested then is not working. I have Windows7. I insert the floppy disk and then from command promt I enter the following command:
FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:9
However I get the following output
H:\>FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:9
Insert new disk for drive A:
and press ENTER when ready...
The type of the file system is RAW.
The new file system is FAT.
Formatting 720K
Invalid media or Track 0 bad - disk unusable.
Does anyone know if I can format a PC disk to use it as an Amiga disk? or this is not possible?
Back in 2002 I purchased a A3000D 1.76 HD floppy drive off of ebay for $40 s/h included for my A1200D works great just sits a little higher then the 880K drive. Get an 1.76 drive as I did, format your pc floppies and put them in your Amiga as CrossDos will read them up to XP Pro it's cheaper route to take. I just copy Aminet files to the pc disk then copy them to my Amiga. My A1200 just got operational thanks to Amigakit's 300w p/s w/the optional cabling. The A1200 has GVP1230/33 4mb, 3.1 and CrossDos 7 Gold installed.
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If you are not affraid to open you floppy drive then you can use cotton swabs and 91% isopropyl alcohol. Just swab both heads clean.
I already opened it to see how it works :) 91% isopropyl alcohol is the same as surgical spirit? Is contact cleaner better? Sorry do not know this stuff ...
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Can you just confirm exactly what you mean by "pc" floppy disks? They are DD ones, yes? Because HD ones will just fail on track 0 very often.
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Can you just confirm exactly what you mean by "pc" floppy disks? They are DD ones, yes? Because HD ones will just fail on track 0 very often.
They are HD not DD ...
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That's your problem then. Using the wrong type of disk is never a good idea as the data will fail at just the wrong moment (if you get it working at all).
Seriously, there's so many cheap DD disks out there, forget HD ones, they're not worth it on a DD drive.
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Reviving this ancient topic with a new question...
I'm trying to get some files off my old A1200 and onto a Windows PC. Just bought a new USB Floppy drive for my PC (coz it didn't have one) and it seems it can only write/format 1.44 mb disks. But when I put that Windows formatted 1.4 mb disk into the A1200 I just get "DF???"
Since the PC can't format 880k disks, but it can READ them, can I use the Amiga to format an 880k DOS floppy? Can't seem to figure that out.
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The DOS diskette size you want is not 880 kB (that is the size of an Amiga formatted floppy), but 720 kB, i.e. half of the HD 1,44 MB size.
You might be able to trick the PC by covering the size hole in the diskette with tape, so it thinks it's a DD diskette, or maybe you can use format from the command line and specify the /F:size argument - try typing "format /?" in a command line under Windows to get the exact arguments possible.
Otherwise I think you should be able to format a 720 kB diskette on the Amiga if you have CrossDOS running and a suitable mount file for a PC DD floppy. But I'm grasping at vague memories now ...
Best regards,
Niels
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You have a 1200, so you should have crossdos as part of the operating system. If so you can format a double density floppy as a 720k ms dos compatible disk. A windows pc cannot read an Amiga 880k disk.
To see if you have crossdos, open up your system disk (DH0) and look in Devs/dosdrivers. You should have a file called pc0. If it's not there look in the folder called storage. If it's there copy Pc0 to the Devs folder and reboot.
A much better explanation is here: https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/AmigaOS_Manual:_Workbench_CrossDOS
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Thanks -
I'm not too worried about the 880 vs 720k angle, just trying to find anything that both the Amiga and the PC can both read. This A1200 used to belong to my wife, so I don't really know it too well. My old A2000 was my main machine but it died when I tried to turn it on after all these years....
I guess I'll have to remember how to search the A1200 for the cross-dos devices. Even the words 'CLI' and 'Device List' are ancient foggy memories I'm struggling to resurrect... I guess that's part o' the fun?
I purchased a used SCSI card for my PC, hoping WinUAE could 'see' my Amiga Syquest drive... but it turned out to be the wrong kind of PCI card, so that is still a dead end. I hope to figure out this mess eventually.
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why do all that when you can just stick a pcmcia adapter in the side and save the files to a fat formatted cf,sd card then move them to the pc?
just install cfd.lha and fat95.lha from aminet. http://aminet.net/package/driver/media/cfd
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I guess I'll have to remember how to search the A1200 for the cross-dos devices. Even the words 'CLI' and 'Device List' are ancient foggy memories I'm struggling to resurrect... I guess that's part o' the fun?
Indeed.
CLI: Command Line Interface, what you get when you double-click the Shell icon in the System drawer of your main disk (Workbench or whatever it is called on your machine).
Once you are in the CLI, at the prompt, you can e.g. type "info" and hit Enter. This will show, among other things, the devices you have mounted. If PC0 is one of them, you are okay, then you should get a PC0 icon on your Workbench if you insert a PC-formatted DD (i.e. 720 kB) diskette.
Apart from that, follow AndyFC's advice above about checking inside Devs/DOSDrivers (i.e. open the Devs drawer in your Workbench disk, then open the DOSDrivers drawer inside that.) - if you don't have a PC0 icon in there, you may have it in Storage/DOSDrivers, then just drag it from there into Devs/DOSDrivers, and afterwards do a reset.
Best regards,
Niels
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Thanks for the reminders - I sort of remember the 'Command Line Interface".
But even if my A1200 has the PC0: device (it does), I can't find a way to make this Amiga FORMAT a DOS floppy. Is that possible in Workbench, or something that must be done with special CLI commands?
The new floppy drive I just bought will only format in HD mode, which the AMiga can't read. And if I cover one of the disk holes, the PC drive doesn't believe it's a 'valid' floppy. So I assume my only option is to somehow create a DOS format disk from the Amiga... ? Any Amiga based formatting I've found thus far is only in 'Amiga' disk format.
Hopefully I won't need to worry about any of this when my PCM-slot CF reader shows up...
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Okay, so you have the PC0: device mounted. If you insert a diskette into the drive, do you get an icon for it on Workbench? Possibly with some strange NDOS or question marks name or similar? If you do, click once on it, then use the right mouse button to drop down the WB menu "Icon" and select the "Format disk" item from it. That should give you a dialog offering to format the diskette.
Of course, it's also possible that the diskette drive is not working correctly after years of storage. It might be worth a shot to clean it.
Best regards,
Niels