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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: fondpondforever on April 27, 2016, 01:24:28 AM
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Is it possible to buy a CD1200 Prototype model any where? Would it be listed on eBay, there must be some people who have it for example ex-employees at Commodore.
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Is it possible to buy a CD1200 Prototype model any where? Would it be listed on eBay, there must be some people who have it for example ex-employees at Commodore.
You must be made of money. ;)
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Why, how much is it selling for?
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As far as I am aware, none has ever appeared for sale, nor has anyone ever seen one other than its original showing in 1993 (exception: the empty case pictured on the BBoAH). The number manufactured is probably in the single digits, possibly just the one. The engineer who designed it may have it in a box somewhere, or it may have gone down with the ship when Commodore imploded.
Assuming it survived, it will be buggy and barely functional - it was a prototype, after all.
If one ever appears for sale, expect to pay a minimum of something in the mid 4-digits.
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As far as I am aware, none has ever appeared for sale, nor has anyone ever seen one other than its original showing in 1993 (exception: the empty case pictured on the BBoAH). The number manufactured is probably in the single digits, possibly just the one. The engineer who designed it may have it in a box somewhere, or it may have gone down with the ship when Commodore imploded.
Assuming it survived, it will be buggy and barely functional - it was a prototype, after all.
If one ever appears for sale, expect to pay a minimum of something in the mid 4-digits.
WOW, nearly all of a hand..what is this Saudi Arabia?
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The question is, how many of these models exist today. My guess is 5 based on your information, what is yours? 1 seems abit pessimistic. I wonder if anyone has got a factual figure, maybe an ex employee of Commodore would know.
If it was buggy and not user friendly being the nature of a prototype, sure you could modify it to a functioning accessory.
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There was the white, "finished looking" prototype that was shown at CeBit in 1994 and appeared in all the Amiga magazines, but afaik this has never been seen since, and nobody knows where it went. Sadly, it probably ended up getting trashed as Commodore went bust 2 weeks later, or maybe still lurks in a box in some dusty warehouse to this day. Nobody seems to have seen it since.
(http://i.imgur.com/Kee7hlh.jpg)
There was also another one that was much less complete and was just a dark grey case with no logos on or anything, apparently that odd Merlancia guy (Ryan?) had it mounted on the hood of his Delorian iirc back in around 2001! (Though he was full of %&$#, so maybe not, but images of it do seem to be credited to him).
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Maybe someone handy could use malfunction or dead CD32 cut the case, print the plastic backplate, use notebook CDROM and some PCMCIA IDE interface such as Alfadata CD1200. But anyway it will need driver in OS and it wont give you Akiko, memory expansion and 68030 expansion...
Its similar situation like with CDTV II, some said there exist 3 working pieces and starting price was 8000 USD as far as I remember.
UPDATE: Now I just found this consists of the CDROM unit and also special accelerator card that contained SIMM slot, CPU and Akiko. http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/media/download_photos/cd1200_2.jpg
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Is it possible to buy a CD1200 Prototype model any where? Would it be listed on eBay, there must be some people who have it for example ex-employees at Commodore.
That Merlancia guy is the only one I think may have had one...
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The question is, how many of these models exist today. My guess is 5 based on your information, what is yours? 1 seems abit pessimistic. I wonder if anyone has got a factual figure, maybe an ex employee of Commodore would know.
If it was buggy and not user friendly being the nature of a prototype, sure you could modify it to a functioning accessory.
1. Really? A team of Commodore engineers weren't able to fix it (and presumably made a new revision prototype to correct the bugs) and you're thinking it would be an easy fix?
2. Would you really want to decimate the value of an original prototype by hacking it so you could have a working CD1200?
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The White version looks alot nicer than the grey one. So your telling me nobody knows if the White version of CD1200 exists today. Do you think David Pleasance would know? Thanks.
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UPDATE: Now I just found this consists of the CDROM unit and also special accelerator card that contained SIMM slot, CPU and Akiko. http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/media/download_photos/cd1200_2.jpg
That is the same image that appeared in all the magazines.
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UPDATE: Now I just found this consists of the CDROM unit and also special accelerator card that contained SIMM slot, CPU and Akiko.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't going to include a CPU. The Akiko supposedly wasn't hardware compatible with the CD32 and an 030 with RAM could do the conversion quicker than Akiko anyway.
Using an IDE or PCMCIA drive was a much better option.
In hindsight I should have bought a CD32 & accelerator
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The planned CD1200-Plug in card for Amiga 1200 should have a socket for a 030 expansion http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1604
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The planned CD1200-Plug in card for Amiga 1200 should have a socket for a 030 expansion
A1200 should've had an '030 from the get-go. Or at least some fast ram. But meh, hindsight is 20-20, another example of Commodore shortsightedness, etc., blahblahblah. ;)
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Do you think David Pleasance would know?
Why don't you drop him a line and ask him?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-pleasance-610447a
I'm sure he must love being bugged with obscure Amiga questions all day long. :laughing:
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A1200 should've had an '030 from the get-go. Or at least some fast ram. But meh, hindsight is 20-20, another example of Commodore shortsightedness, etc., blahblahblah. ;)
More like an 040. The 68020 was released in 1984, and the 68030 in 1987. The Amiga 1000 could have used a 68020 in 1985...
I know I know... these CPU's were terribly, terribly expensive back then, and the A1000 was mostly designed before the 68020 was released, but really, the A2000 released with yet another 1979 68000 CPU? What was Commodore thinking? This was 1987, the 68000 was 8 years old by this time, it should have been 68020 as standard. And let's not mention the A600 from 1992 with a 1979 68000 CPU... Oops, I just did.
In an ideal world where cost doesn't matter, the A1200 like the A4000 should have been 68040 driven, so should the A3000. The 68040 was released in 1990 and at 25 MHz does 20 MIPS (4x faster per clock than the 68030). When the A1200 was released in 1992, it sported a CPU that was already 8 years out of date, and then they decided to cripple it by starving it of full speed RAM in its stock configuration. Of course, you could always purchase CPU/RAM upgrades at a price, but it's sad that people never realised the potential of an Amiga with a greater CPU than the 68000 or even the 68020. A 68040 equipped Amiga goes like sh*t off a shovel, especially a 40MHz one!
Just imagine it today, a shiny new computer from your favourite company being released with a CPU that is 8 or 13 years out of date! I know... things were different back then in the 80's and 90's....but it makes you think doesn't it?
Some people say Doom killed the Amiga. By the end of 1992, the 68040 was available at 40 MHz. A 68040 at 40 MHz eats Doom for breakfast! A 68030 at 50 MHz can also pull it off.... so it certainly wasn't Doom that killed the Amiga - it was definitely something else (or shall we say someone else?). :)
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Update to this, the white CD1200 prototype has been located. It's at the Retro Computer Museum in Leicester, UK.
Ravi from The Retro Hour podcast got his hands on it today!
(http://i.imgur.com/KvoVl0a.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/n8rB7ZF.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fCB28Qe.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/3eAVtVp.jpg)
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Well well well! Never thought we'd see the day. It's useless without the corresponding A1200 card, though - I hope they got that, too.
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If there's only one of them then a museum is probably the best place for it. Looks like it could use a bit of cleaning.
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@danwood
I'm so glad it still exists and is safe in a museum in the UK! There was so much hope and optimism wrapped up in that little prototype. In reality the Squirrel CD-ROM interface was a far better solution for the period but the fact this was the official Amiga CD-Rom solution for the A1200 with the possiblity of 100% compatibility with CD32 software would have given the market a much needed boost had the Commodore UK buyout succeeded :-( As it turned out users were better off picking up the widely available CD32 consoles and adding a SX-1 or SX-32 to make the console into a A1200 type computer. It's a shame that only 2,000 SX-32 units were sold as they were absolutely great.
... that's 1,999 more SX-32s produced than CD1200s though ;-)
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@danwood
I'm so glad it still exists and is safe in a museum in the UK! There was so much hope and optimism wrapped up in that little prototype. In reality the Squirrel CD-ROM interface was a far better solution for the period but the fact this was the official Amiga CD-Rom solution for the A1200 with the possiblity of 100% compatibility with CD32 software would have given the market a much needed boost had the Commodore UK buyout succeeded :-( As it turned out users were better off picking up the widely available CD32 consoles and adding a SX-1 or SX-32 to make the console into a A1200 type computer. It's a shame that only 2,000 SX-32 units were sold as they were absolutely great.
... that's 1,999 more SX-32s produced than CD1200s though ;-)
I wish I'd got an SX-32 back in the day but I was much more interested in upgrading the A1200 at the time. Looking back through my old magazines I realised that Eyetech sold them for quite reasonable prices and I could probably have bought one as well as all the A1200 gear but how was I to know that today I'd have greater desire for a CD32 based WHDload system with the idea of an A1200 being completely out of favour for me.
I have a CD32 and an A4000 keyboard waiting for the day that either a Vampire32 or Ian Stedman's project Hermes become available.
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A1200 should've had an '030 from the get-go. Or at least some fast ram. But meh, hindsight is 20-20, another example of Commodore shortsightedness, etc., blahblahblah. ;)
The CD32 would have been a lot better with 1MB of fast ram and a number of UK developers said so at the time.
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Some people say Doom killed the Amiga. By the end of 1992, the 68040 was available at 40 MHz. A 68040 at 40 MHz eats Doom for breakfast! A 68030 at 50 MHz can also pull it off.... so it certainly wasn't Doom that killed the Amiga - it was definitely something else (or shall we say someone else?). :)
I found it playable enough on a 33Mhz 68030 with AGA. If Doom had come out for Amiga in 1993, 68030 accelerator sales would have gone through the roof and Commodore would have probably sold enough A4000's to keep afloat. This was well before the days inexpensive home build PCs. Instead many people went to Time UK or wherever and paid over a grand for a PC to play Doom.
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An '040 in an a1200, at time of release is somewhat implausible due to generated heat. It wasn't until some years later cooler running masks (die shrink?) were released.
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At Amiwest 2013, Beth Richard, the developer of the CD 1200 gave a talk about it. She said that 9 prototypes were built. It had an Akiko, RAM socket and an FPGA that convinced the Akiko that it was connected to a CD32 on the board that connected to the 1200's expansion slot with a cable going out to the CD drive. She said it was 100% compatible with CD32 software.
There was a 2nd version planned as something to entice a possible buyer of Commodore but that fell through so the 2nd version was never built. It was planned to replace the Akiko and FPGA with an ASIC and add a 68030 socket.
You can see her whole talk at https://youtu.be/eOJ7XVQlnB8
The part about the CD 1200 starts just past 49 minutes.
Richard was involved with the whole line of multimedia products including unreleased ones like the 4000 FMV card which was the basis for the CD32's FMV card. The title of the talk was "The Development of the FMV Card". She covers the whole history of the multimedia products including lots of architecture and theory, why some decisions were made.
It's less than an hour and well worth watching.
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I Had 060 in my A1200 yes it could run Doom but only at 320 x 200 where as lets say a P3 could run it at least 640 x 480 maybe even 800 x 600. Even the new vampire is only just managing 640 x 480 on some games. It was the lack of GFX advancement that killed amiga along with %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!y management.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LmFmH4YNBA
I have added a small video of the CD1200 and review of the museum its displayed in :)
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Oh my god, that's amazing. Will it be for sale on eBay like the Commodore 65 Prototype was? Thanks.
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Oh my god, that's amazing. Will it be for sale on eBay like the Commodore 65 Prototype was? Thanks.
No because it is in a museum!
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Fair enough. The Commodore 65 Prototype can't have been as rare as this then to sell on eBay :)
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At Amiwest 2013, Beth Richard, the developer of the CD 1200 gave a talk about it. She said that 9 prototypes were built. It had an Akiko, RAM socket and an FPGA that convinced the Akiko that it was connected to a CD32 on the board that connected to the 1200's expansion slot with a cable going out to the CD drive. She said it was 100% compatible with CD32 software.
There was a 2nd version planned as something to entice a possible buyer of Commodore but that fell through so the 2nd version was never built. It was planned to replace the Akiko and FPGA with an ASIC and add a 68030 socket.
You can see her whole talk at https://youtu.be/eOJ7XVQlnB8
The part about the CD 1200 starts just past 49 minutes.
Richard was involved with the whole line of multimedia products including unreleased ones like the 4000 FMV card which was the basis for the CD32's FMV card. The title of the talk was "The Development of the FMV Card". She covers the whole history of the multimedia products including lots of architecture and theory, why some decisions were made.
It's less than an hour and well worth watching.
Great video - thanks for that link!
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Fair enough. The Commodore 65 Prototype can't have been as rare as this then to sell on eBay :)
No, there are considerably more commodore 65 prototypes in circulation. In the 1990's you could buy them mail order from the US.
CD-1200 wasn't a great design and it happened at a time when commodore imploded, so it was only to make it look like commodore were worth buying. A PCMCIA card would have been a better option, you could have fitted the FMV and chunky to planar on it but still had the expansion card free.
The 74 minute CD length being to do with Beethoven's 9th symphony may not be accurate http://www.snopes.com/music/media/cdlength.asp.
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I found it playable enough on a 33Mhz 68030 with AGA. If Doom had come out for Amiga in 1993, 68030 accelerator sales would have gone through the roof and Commodore would have probably sold enough A4000's to keep afloat. This was well before the days inexpensive home build PCs. Instead many people went to Time UK or wherever and paid over a grand for a PC to play Doom.
I was building PC clones well before Doom. If I recall correctly, I first played Doom on a 386DLC-40 system that I had built. It wasn't until I upgraded to a 486 a couple years later that it really ran well though. Maybe it was different in the UK, it seems the Amiga was much more popular as a home computer there. I only ever knew one person who had an Amiga and that wasn't until the mid 90s so it was an old computer.
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Maybe it was different in the UK,
It was very different in the UK, the PC didn't really take off as a home computer until Windows 95 launched. A lot of people were playing Doom and X-Wing at work during their lunch breaks though.
Around that time the PS1 took the non geek games market, previously the Amiga had catered for both.
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That video was great! I wish there was an organized list of videos by former Commodore people and topics. These videos have such great information and I'm always surprised when I stumbled across one just when I think I have seen them all.
You cannot help but be in awe of the Commodore/Amiga community. You don't see this kind of history being presented on other platforms (I'm looking in your direction Atari Home Computers).
Honestly, I wish other platforms had these kinds of resources because I would like to hear more about Atari, TI, Tandy, and others for the history.
Cheers!
-P
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http://www.ppa.pl/graffiti/obrazek/4337/cd1200-recenzja-cz-1-2
http://www.ppa.pl/graffiti/obrazek/4338/cd1200-recenzja-cz-2-2
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@skolman
Nice links ;-) Almost makes me want one reading all that again despite the fact that I know that not using the PCMCIA slot and blocking up the accelerator slot was a big mistake and would have cost C= big time. The Squirrel SCSI adapter was the solution all along.
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I Had 060 in my A1200 yes it could run Doom but only at 320 x 200 where as lets say a P3 could run it at least 640 x 480 maybe even 800 x 600. Even the new vampire is only just managing 640 x 480 on some games. It was the lack of GFX advancement that killed amiga along with %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!y management.
Doom didn't even support higher than 320*200 for a few years. It was only with some later ports that resolution (other than screen size) was changeable.
Also, a Pentium, let alone pentium2 or 3, didn't even exist at the time of its release, so such a comparison is, quite frankly, dumb.
Not to mention the fact a higher resolution does nothing for the game.
Even aga + a fast 68k system can deal with doom as intended, reaching the games original frame rate cap of 35fps.
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@skolman
Nice links ;-) Almost makes me want one reading all that again despite the fact that I know that not using the PCMCIA slot and blocking up the accelerator slot was a big mistake and would have cost C= big time.
Commodore never made accelerators for the A1200 and judging by the amount of unexpanded A1200s that come up on Ebay then I doubt it would have been an issue. Many customers would have felt that ability to add some extra RAM would have been more than enough. Also I think that there might have been problems with Akiko and the 16-bit PCMCIA interface. Not that Akiko was particularly useful anyway.
The Squirrel SCSI adapter was the solution all along.
Actually the Archos PCMCIA IDE adapters seemed to be the solution. Commodore rebranded the hard drive units and later Amiga Technologies rebranded the CD ROM units.
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Just realised that Beth Richard should be able to shed some more light on the CD1200. Her name is on the silkscreen and she was heavily involved in the CD32 and FMV projects at Commodore.
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Just realised that Beth Richard should be able to shed some more light on the CD1200. Her name is on the silkscreen and she was heavily involved in the CD32 and FMV projects at Commodore.
Did you not read the whole of the thread?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=816409&postcount=25
Also I think that there might have been problems with Akiko and the 16-bit PCMCIA interface. Not that Akiko was particularly useful anyway.
It's not essential as the games went through the OS, which used the CPU if there was no akiko. All of the PCMCIA CD solutions that came out relied on that for compatibility. The CPU routines weren't the most optimal, so you really needed an accelerator. There were patches later on that improved them, but I don't think the 020EC in the A1200 could ever truly beat Akiko. Some hardware on the PCMCIA slot should have been able to do it quicker (it's a pity they didn't go ahead with the plan of chunky pixels for AGA).
I think at the point the CD1200 was done then commodore were really scraping hardware together from whatever they could find and they already had akiko from CD32 so they just used some glue logic.
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Did you not read the whole of the thread?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=816409&postcount=25
I hadn't been sleeping well when I typed that. Worst thing is that last month I'd have read the post you linked but had since forgotten.