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Offline whabangTopic starter

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About the weather...
« on: July 29, 2007, 06:23:59 PM »
WTF is going on? LINK

For those of you who can't read Swedish: Look at the picture; it's snowing in July!

From what I've heard, the weather is {bleep}ed up in the rest of the word aswell (I heard that the UK has gotten as much rain as we have).

How do we protect our societies from future weather problems? Let the discussion begin! :-)
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Offline odin

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2007, 07:22:53 PM »
Yay! Can I go skiing in Åre?!

Oh, it's only sludge :(.

Offline Cymric

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2007, 08:34:10 AM »
Quote
How do we protect our societies from future weather problems? Let the discussion begin! :-)

From what I hear from all sorts of hypocritical TV hosts (who present popular around-the-world travel shows, drive SUVs and promote a jetset lifestyle), we should all buy low-power light bulbs.

Seriously though, altered architecture is one thing. Sterilising 99,999% of the human race another: this will cure the problem quite naturally in a century. All it takes is a solid dose of gamma rays on the gonads---finally a use for all that plutonium we have lying about! All the other methods are useless since anything we do to reduce climatic change is offset by huge economic growth in the rest of the world (primarily China and India).
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Offline whabangTopic starter

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2007, 08:55:25 AM »
Yep, the growth is what is scaring me. Living in Sweden, I pulled the long straw, considering that the heat is expected to increase the harvests by about 20%. It's what happens when the guys down south run out of food that scares me. I can take the French, the Greek, and possibly, the Spaniards and the Italians, but the thought of two billion hungry Chineese and Indians scare the hell out of me.
On the other hand, a big nuke fight about the last food on the planet might just be what we need to reduce the over-population. :nervous:
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Offline Oliver

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2007, 09:56:22 AM »
Blame developing nations for human driven climate change?  Is this a serious sentiment?
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Offline Cymric

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2007, 11:07:10 AM »
Food doesn't really scare me, though. In Europe we have plenty of know-how to produce the food we need. It may not be the most delicious, but it at least sustain us. And if all else fails, there is always genetic engineering, much as it scares people. It's nice and well to be arguing on high moral grounds, but once you've got a hungry population to feed, opinions will likely prove to be malleable. Clean fresh water will become a problem much, much earlier on.

You may think you're safe in Sweden with your increased harvests, but there are also models available which suggest that global warming will divert the Gulf Stream a few thousand kilometres south. That would plunge your warmer Sweden into a climate now found around Tromsø or thereabouts. I, in the Netherlands, would get the climate you now have. Climate change is finicky!

The problem also is that people more or less silently assume that the climate doesn't change, that the Earth is more or less a stationary planet, and that things like plate tectonics (with earthquakes and volcanoes), magnetic field reversals, and solar hickups simply won't affect us. The history of man is rife with examples where civilisations emerged and eventually failed because of slow climatic change spread out over hundreds of years, causing them to lose valuable plots of land for their staple crops. The problem is not so much that the climate does change; it's that we don't want to change with it. This didn't present much of a problem in the early history because we just gave up somewhere and started anew in a place which suited us better. Nowadays we have such rigid social structures in place, supported by very expensive infrastructure, that anything which challenges the boundary conditions will cause huge trouble in our societies: we simply traded flexibility for security and stability, and now we're expected to pay up a little.

To be honest, I'm not really sure I care much about increased temperatures, and more extremal weather any longer. The Earth has seen much, much worse in its past, and it will survive. Life will survive too---perhaps not in the forms we know and love, but it will find a way. (It is hard to say goodbye to the mighty polar bear and the adorable penguin, yes. But something else will undoubtedly fill their place once the ice returns.) Here in the Netherlands, a change of a few degrees isn't that impressive or destabilising, and that goes for much of Europe at this lattitude. Sea level change is something else, because you can't live---at least not in the current fashion---on water. Flooding results in massive population displacements, and those will create social unrest. This site offers a tool to calculate what the world would look like with raised and lowered sea levels; this site is a bit more static, but still very useful. I'm sure the Netherlands has the know-how to fend off a raise of something like 5 m (at great cost, and severe economic decline, no doubt, but still), but once we begin hitting numbers like 20 to 50 m, we'd better pack up and move someplace else. We are fortunate that we have hundreds of years of experience in living near sea-level and so are a bit more resilient than, for example, the people in New Orleans or Miami---those cities will quite simply be dead if sealevels rise as predicted. (New Orleans already is a shadow of its former pre-Katrina self; another inundation will doom it.)

It's similar to living on the slopes of a volcano: you know you have terrific yields of all sorts of crops, but once the mountain blows, you know you are in deep cow excrement. The question then becomes 'how do we mitigate climate change?' with silly treaties like Kyoto; no, the question becomes 'how can we make our societies more adaptable and flexible to cope with a dynamic planet?'. And that is a question which is not yet widely heard over the ruckus.
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Offline Cymric

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2007, 11:18:14 AM »
@Oliver:
There's two factors: the West was stupid first, and is still being stupid for not mending its ways after learning of the impact half a billion people can have on the planet. (Although this is very slowly changing.)

The East is stupid for trying to become like us, in numbers which dwarf our own populations and for which the West cannot take any responsibility, effectively nailing the coffin quite shut. On the one hand nobody can genuinely hold it against them for trying to achieve a higher standard of living; on the other hand, their new-found lives will be mercilessly cut short by the planet itself, which will dole out Righteous Climatic Justice to all.

The West started it; the East finishes it. With the exception of a continents like South America or Africa, we all share blame in some way.
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Offline whabangTopic starter

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2007, 11:31:23 AM »
Oh, I definitely don't think we're safe. Regardless of how the climate changes (because we know it will change in some ways), there will be a lot of people moving around because of it. Europe and north America won't suffer from it the same way; as you said, we have a technological advantage, allowing us to keep producing food.

The problem will be when larger masses of people start to move around. Both the US and the EU are making it harder for immigrants for the third world to seek refuge, and I doubt it'll get any better soon.

In one way or another, it will lead to armed conflicts. It's just a matter of how, where, and when.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2007, 05:29:01 PM »
Quote

Oliver wrote:
Blame developing nations for human driven climate change?  Is this a serious sentiment?


Well its definitely the reason Kyoto can't accomplish its goal, though I dont agree with that the goal will accomplish what they think it will.
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Offline KThunder

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2007, 07:55:36 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:
@Oliver:
There's two factors: the West was stupid first, and is still being stupid for not mending its ways after learning of the impact half a billion people can have on the planet. (Although this is very slowly changing.)

The East is stupid for trying to become like us, in numbers which dwarf our own populations and for which the West cannot take any responsibility, effectively nailing the coffin quite shut. On the one hand nobody can genuinely hold it against them for trying to achieve a higher standard of living; on the other hand, their new-found lives will be mercilessly cut short by the planet itself, which will dole out Righteous Climatic Justice to all.

The West started it; the East finishes it. With the exception of a continents like South America or Africa, we all share blame in some way.


the west has changed enormously since these problems started to be realized. industry has spent billions (involuntarily yes) to clean up emissions and currently acid rain and co2 problems have been drasticly cut.
our cars are the cleanest in the world. the only country with emission standards high enough to export cars to north america without huge changes to cut co etc. is japan. almost all eu cars have to modded significantly.
when we found that flourocarbons were harmful to ozone layer we changed, to use inert gasses and natural gasses

many of these changes took only a few years to implement.

personally i think that human involvement is only part of the climate change equation. this is a dynamic world, we can see that in just the span of recorded human history

we need to be and are dynamic too

btw we werent "stupid" first, the industrial revolution started in europe and the first instances of pollution were recorded in london due to coal use at home and industry.
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Offline Oliver

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2007, 05:31:28 AM »
In my opinion, developed countires can't be divorced from the issues of developing countries, as we support their economies to run the way they do.  We love to buy those bottom dollar imports.  Multinationals love to move manufacturing to developing nations.  We buy imported timber/pulp products from old growth forests.  Global economics connects us to foreign practices.  I'm not in dissagreement with all that's been written here, but it's not reasonable just to say developing nations are clean, because we enforce certain standards for processes occuring within our boundaries.
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Offline CannonFodder

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2007, 10:31:50 AM »
Quote
The West started it; the East finishes it. With the exception of a continents like South America or Africa, we all share blame in some way.


Quote
btw we werent "stupid" first, the industrial revolution started in europe and the first instances of pollution were recorded in london due to coal use at home and industry.


Last time I checked Europe was considered to be a major part of "The West". ;-)
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Offline Dandy

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2007, 12:20:29 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:

Quote


How do we protect our societies from future weather problems? Let the discussion begin!
 :-)



...
All the other methods are useless since anything we do to reduce climatic change is offset by huge economic growth in the rest of the world (primarily China and India).



Well, this reminds me of my economics prof during my engineering studies.

He kept insisting that the gross national product has to grow by at least 2% every year.

Even rfeminding him of the fact that we`re sitting on a ball that does not grow at least 2% annually didn`t change his mind - he kept insisting that the gross national product has to grow by at least 2% every year.

So the entire semester understood that this man was not able (or not willing) to discuss our argument, considered his teaching as unnecessary nonsense and boycotted his lessons from then on...
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Offline Dandy

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2007, 01:35:49 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:

...
It's nice and well to be arguing on high moral grounds, but once you've got a hungry population to feed,



Hmmmmmm, yes - it may sound like low moral now, but I`ve always been asking myself what the benefit of "saving those poor people from starvation this year" is.

I mean - we save them from starvation this year. And next year we most likely have to save them from starvation again.

And in a few years we are likely to save them plus their children (and their grandchildren and so on).

In the course of the years this will become an insolvable task for the rich and industrialised nations.

In my book it is necessary to extirpate the real causes, which are:

* egoism

* throw-away mentality ("Oh - the ash tray is full - I need a new car!)

* polluting production processes for energy and goods

* polluting traffic systems (cars & lorries , planes, ships)

Quote

Cymric wrote:

Clean fresh water will become a problem much, much earlier on.



You might be right with that...

Quote

Cymric wrote:

...
To be honest, I'm not really sure I care much about increased temperatures,



Well, I do.
If the tempreatur reaches 35-40 °C in the shadow during the day, the night temperatures kepp me away from sleeping.

Last year we had such a situation. I was hoping a shower with cold water could cool me down so I could sleep - but there only came warm water from the tab!

Nearly drove me crazy - I`m certainly not built for such temperatures!
  :crazy:

Quote

Cymric wrote:

...
Here in the Netherlands, a change of a few degrees isn't that impressive or destabilising, and that goes for much of Europe at this lattitude. Sea level change is something else, because you can't live---at least not in the current fashion---on water.
...
  I'm sure the Netherlands has the know-how to fend off a raise of something like 5 m (at great cost, and severe economic decline, no doubt, but still),



Well, it might turn out to be more cost efficiant to heap up the land instead of increasing the dykes endlessly and wasting enormous amounts of energy for pumping down the ground water...
 
Quote

Cymric wrote:

...
We are fortunate that we have hundreds of years of experience in living near sea-level and so are a bit more resilient...



Yeah, but don`t forget that if the climate has warmed up that much to melt enough ice to rise the sea level that much, the frozen Methane in the steep face of the underwater plateau in front of Norway might melt as well.

According to the scientists this might cause an Tsunami with several hundret meters of height in Norway, Denmark, North Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, England, Scotland and even on the other side of the atlantic ocean New York could easily be destroyed by such an event.

In such a scenario there simply would be no Netherlands afterwards - and Cologne (where I live) is said to be a seaport then...

But I`d vote for helping the Dutch then and to them in (provided they bring all their coffee shops with them)...

Quote

Cymric wrote:

... no, the question becomes 'how can we make our societies more adaptable and flexible to cope with a dynamic planet?'. And that is a question which is not yet widely heard over the ruckus.



I`m afraid the rising temperatures will rise more health/physical problems than a social ones...
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Offline Dan

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Re: About the weather...
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2007, 09:28:52 PM »
Quote

whabang wrote:
Oh, I definitely don't think we're safe. Regardless of how the climate changes (because we know it will change in some ways), there will be a lot of people moving around because of it. Europe and north America won't suffer from it the same way; as you said, we have a technological advantage, allowing us to keep producing food.

What is stopping the rest of the world from adapting the same agricultural technologies? What mighty lead to trouble is running a billion chinese and indian cars on biodiesel or  ethanol once the oilfields run dry. Both food and fuel will be expensive.:-(
Quote

The problem will be when larger masses of people start to move around. Both the US and the EU are making it harder for immigrants for the third world to seek refuge, and I doubt it'll get any better soon.

In one way or another, it will lead to armed conflicts. It's just a matter of how, where, and when.

But atleast we have nothing to fear from the first nations that will be obliterated by global warming, these guys, http://www.tuvaluislands.com/, and their neghbours aren´t really as terrifying as, say the pakistani having an allout about natural resources with the indians or oilthirsty neocons that are scearching the globe for the last drop:-P
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