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Offline Linde

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Re: Raspberry PI
« on: March 02, 2012, 02:49:52 PM »
Quote from: tone007;682146
Why program this thing when there are real computers running Linux to program on?


How exactly isn't this a "real" computer? Not all children have their own personal computers. Access to a personal computer only gets you so far when your use of it is restricted in various ways, especially when it comes to programming.
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Raspberry PI
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2012, 03:48:36 PM »
Quote from: tone007;682155
It's about as real as the 8088s and 286s I was learning QBasic programming on back in high school while the rest of the world had moved on to Pentiums and more powerful programming languages.  Might as well give them what the real world is using.


To be fair, the situation has changed. This thing is equivalent to a typical PC in terms of what language compilers and interpreters it can run. Add to that OpenGL compatible hardware and you can be sure that speed/RAM won't be the bottleneck for what children will be able to learn using them. You won't be stuck running qbasic or some modern day equivalent, but Ruby, Python, JS, C, C++, PHP, and exactly whatever the real world is using.

A full-fledged Linux system with the most widely used processor architecture... For a price low enough to realistically buy one for every student, you won't get much closer to the "real world."
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Raspberry PI
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 03:54:00 PM »
As for the price of peripherals. Worst case is that you have a student who has neither a PC monitor or a TV monitor. A TV monitor can be had new for ~$30 and a basic keyboard goes for what, $4?
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Raspberry PI
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 04:06:46 PM »
Quote from: Arkhan;682161
This thing requires more than just the Pi.  When you add up the other crap you'll need to use it, is it really that great?
See my last post :)

Quote from: Arkhan;682161
If they have an HDMI capable display and no personal computer, their family needs to rethink priorities and get them into technology instead of HD television.
Who said you need a HDMI capable display?

Quote from: Arkhan;682161
Plus once its all setup, you have a goony little board with no case (or a case when they have them), with wires on all sides.  Great for hamfisted kids to sit near and use.  

OOPS I SPILLED CAPRI SUN ON MY RASPBERRY PI.
Good point, though at $35 it's not a great loss for the school.

Quote from: Arkhan;682161
I'm sorry, how are you restricted on a personal computer when it comes to programming?  If you've got Linux (free), a keyboard, and at least 1 finger, you aren't restricted.  Hell you don't even need fingers really.  Toes are fine.
I don't think what I was trying to say came through to you! What I am saying is that while most kids have ACCESS to a computer, quite a few don't have their own. I don't know, but libraries, parents and whatever are usually pretty restrictive in what they allow you to do with computers. I'm not sure that poor John Doe's Microsoft-Office-and-youtube dad will be happy if his starts mucking about with installing compiler environments, and I'm quite sure that he won't be happy to have his computer occupied all day.

Quote from: Arkhan;682161
This thing is more restricting than a personal computer.  It supports what, Perl, Python, C, and BBC BASIC?  No C++? No C#?  No Java?  THAT SOUNDS RESTRICTING.
No C++, no Java and no C#? Where did you get that idea? I'm getting more and more confident in the fact that you have no idea of what you are talking about. It's a Linux system, not some sort of sandboxed toy OS.

Quote from: Arkhan;682161
They'd be better off sticking these kids on Linux boxes with endless possibilities.
Yes, they should give Linux boxes to all k... wait, isn't this what the Raspberry Pi is? Are you that clueless or are you leaving out some aspect of your argument that gives it some sense?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 04:11:03 PM by Linde »
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Raspberry PI
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2012, 04:08:22 PM »
Quote from: tone007;682164
"Here kid, don't mind the blurry letters."  Love it.


When you juxtapose it to not having a monitor or a computer at all it doesn't look that stupid.
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Raspberry PI
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 05:42:29 PM »
Quote from: Arkhan;682187
Anyone who doesn't want to use a composite output for a computer?  Ever try programming on a standard def tv?  Screw ergonomics, these kids will be blind by the age of 12.   HDMI (crisp visuals) or jank ass composite (blurrylolol!).  HMMMMM.  Tough choice.

The choice is obvious to those who are able to choose.

Quote from: Arkhan;682187
Parents are retarded.  So the answer is to give kids crippled machines?  Cool!

Crippled in what sense?

Quote from: Arkhan;682187
It will be like taking Timmy off his Ninja Turtles huffy complete with training wheels, slapping him on a Kawasaki Crotch Rocket, and watching him slam into a wall, full tilt.  Blood everywhere.  Teeth removed, bones broken.

Yes, you make a very VALID and INTERESTING point, idiot. :D

Quote from: Arkhan;682187
Schools can provide programming computers.  Parents who aren't stuck in the 1940s can provide real computers.

Whether you think it's ridiculous or not, the problem exists and isn't going to solve itself.

Quote from: Arkhan;682187
From Wikipedia: This board is intended to run operating systems based on the Linux kernel, including, but not exclusive to Linux[2] and to support the Python programming language,[11][12] BBC BASIC,[13] C[11] and Perl.[11]

So, no, I am not clueless.  Just reading the information I see.  The thing comes with Kids Ruby, Scratch, and BASIC , I think?

Oh, you are able to read information you see! A useless skill if you are not able to draw logical conclusions from it, though. It comes with a Fedora Linux distribution with the things you mentioned preinstalled. An Arch Linux ARM ditribution is soon to follow, if you are too hardcore for Fedora.

Quote from: Arkhan;682187
Can anyone confirm otherwise that this thing supports C++ and C#?  I sure doubt it supports C# in any good form.

It supports C++ via the GNU toolchain like any linux system. C# in "any good form?" How about a full language implementation? It's called Mono. You have no clue about Linux, but you sure know how to paint yourself into a corner.

Quote from: Arkhan;682187
This thing is far from being a fullblown linux box.   Linux based != Linux.  It's got some hacked up Linux based OS running off an SD card.  It ain't like you're going to be able to hit up the repo browser and grab tons of packages to install.

Again, you are wading through things you don't understand. Since when is Fedora a "hacked up" Linux based OS? There is no "true" linux OS; everything is Linux *based* as Linux is not an operating system in itself. Fedora is a full-blown Linux distribution in every valid sense of the word, though. It's customizable and open down to rewriting and recompiling the kernel if you wish.

Quote from: Arkhan;682187
Are you sure you aren't the clueless one?

Yes, I am pretty sure. I use both ARM and x86 based linux distributions every day, and since you are asking I might as well mention that I am a professional C programmer. I do know a thing or two about both Linux and programming.


Quote from: Arkhan;682187
If I wanted a kid to get excited about programming, I'd sit him down in front of a Linux machine with some Galaga clone in C, and show him how that works.

What stops anyone from doing this with a Raspberry Pi?
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Raspberry PI
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 10:55:35 PM »
Quote from: Arkhan;682210
I dunno, it's a tiny little goonbox with crapass specs.  That's crippled in my book.

Well, that's in the eye of the beholder, and in the end it depends on what you are going to use it for. I'm sure it would have enough horsepower for you to troll amiga.org with it, for example.

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Right.  However, I think there are better solutions.  Ignorant parents suck.  Especially since most parents suck at computers and screw them up (and then blame the kid who barely uses it)

I'm glad you are able to make legitimate points and back them up with hard data. I see that in your eyes both parents and children are stupid and ignorant, but in real life the situation is a bit more complex. Naturally, you don't want your 12 year old child to experiment freely with your computer. If he has his own computer, you probably don't want him to mess about too much with that either, because in the end you'll have to fix it if things **** up.

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Please, lets drop the condescending HURHUR you dunno nothin' crap.  It's getting none of us anywhere.

If someone's talking out of his ass, making invalid assumptions about everything, I'll point it out. It's hard to approach you in any way that' not condescending because most everything you say makes you look like an angry 15 year old.

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I use linux daily (Zenwalk and Fedora).  I've even got a frigging Minix install still.  Mono blows.  The good form of C# is all the M$ related nonsense.

Frankly, it's beyond me why anyone would like to do C#/.NET stuff in Linux, but maybe you could point out what particularly blows about Mono. It's not a 100% implementation of .NET, but it's no less than C# for you.

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Plus this *is* all Linux stuff.  Linux is not really user friendly, especially to kids who generally have short attention spans and are impatient.

Totally distribution dependent. Tried Android? It's not like Fedora is black magic either.

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I was under the impression these things came with goofy little dumbed down Linux OS's that aren't exactly full of all the features you'd want, out of box. I don't expect a little kid to be savvy enough to start adding things he needs/wants to one of these.  Nor do I expect most staff at a school.   I drew this conclusion from reading the wikipedia entry AND the RPi wiki.  It sounds like they've got Linux going on it, but it isn't full-blown.  As expected from some crap running off an SD card.

Before you start talking about full blown/not full blown, you need to set the definitions straight. The distribution for the RPi is full blown in the sense that you can compile and run software freely as you would any other distribution. It's NOT full blown in the sense that... well, in that you'll never acknowledge that it is, no matter what anyone says.

Oh, and on one hand you are whining about how Linux isn't user friendly, and on the other hand you are whining about the distribution being "dumbed down." Make up your mind. If you can't follow your own train of thought, maybe you should continue trolling some other day. Your arguments so far have been based on ambiguations, misunderstandings, fallacious conclusions and outright lies.

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But, what you are saying then is, these can run the same full blown Fedora install that I have installed right here?  With all the fixins?

Get a big enough SD card and make a big enough swap file; I'm sure you could. The RPi distribution probably has a subset of the software you get out of the box with the official desktop PC distribution, but it is Fedora nonetheless.

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and still, it's a fairly low powered machine.  I sure hope the thing is snappy.  I remember putting Fedora on a 1ghz 256mb machine, and even with XFCE, the thing was pretty damn sluggish.

We'll have to wait and see, I guess. Personally, I don't use desktop environments at all, and simple/friendly WMs like Openbox run happily without.

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Everyone is approaching this from a seasoned developer standpoint.  Try putting yourself in a clueless little kids shoes.  These aren't the PROGRAMMING YOUR COMPUTER IN BASIC days where a happy little computer cartoon on the cover tells you all about how to PEEK and POKE and make pacman in a weekend.

This is a cluster****.  It's modern computing.

Generally speaking, 12 year olds are quick learners when given the right motivation. I understand that you don't think highly of children at all, but 12 year olds are close to the peak of being able to pick up new skills. Even if 90% won't have any use of it, the $35 price makes it more worth a shot than ever before.