Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: So PowerPC is dead you say?  (Read 7032 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline yssing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2002
  • Posts: 1517
    • Show only replies by yssing
    • http://www.yssing.org
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #89 from previous page: April 19, 2012, 08:11:49 AM »
As long as its being produced, it really cant be dead can it?
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show only replies by takemehomegrandma
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2012, 09:43:56 AM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;689450
While I find it unusual to see myself agreeing with tmhg I can only assume he means commercially viable, which for the moment appears to be true. Price, performance and most other properties make it not an option in anything other than homebrew/hobbyist circles where rational decisions arent important. If anything Id have to say the ppc systems youve mentioned support that idea rather than negate it.


I think any platform needs to be of a certain size to survive in the long run, it needs to be able to carry its own weight, but not only does it need to be self-sustaining in a credible way, it also needs growth, a credible future and momentum for anyone to invest any kind of money, time, or even interest in it. It needs developers. It needs users. Users won't come without developers, and developers won't come without users. A growth in user base might result in a growth in developer base, resulting in a growth in user base, resulting in a growth in developer base, and so on. That kind of momentum.

Obscure $3,000 systems of 2007 standards is not what is needed to get momentum. Neither is €1,000 ones that is completely stomped to the ground and run over by a common smart phone. The only ones buying this kind of stuff, are the few hundreds already die-hard fanatics that literary buys *anything* at *any* price, as long as Hyperion tells them it's a good thing and/or it has a boing ball slapped on to its bog standard PC-case. This is hardly "self-sustaining", it's more like living on a life support machine. I think it's a safe guess to claim that 99% of the A1X1K systems went to people *already owning* an OS4 system (the remaining 1% would be "amigadave" and possibly one or a few other blokes). So it's not leading to any kind of advancement for the platform, in fact, I think it might *scare people away* since it signals so darn clearly to everyone with a brain that there is *no credible future* in this, and they will invest their interest somewhere else, and then we are talking about a platform *decline* in the same pace that the old Eyetech A1's die off or simply being put out in the garage due to the obvious lack of progress and lack of a future. *That* is what the A1X1K brings to the table, *that* is what it means for a desktop OS being tied to a HW platform that completely lacks viable desktop systems, *that* is what all this "pro-PPC advocating" results in; pulling the plug on the life support.

PPC is **DEAD** as a desktop platform, even if the suitable CPU's would be here (which they aren't) it's simply not possible to build a viable desktop machine in the ultra-low volumes Acube/Aeon can afford, and those who *could* manage (like ASUS, Abit, MSI, etc) certainly won't do it, and I have asked this question previously in this thread: "Why doesn't anyone build desktop motherboards using PPC today?", and of course nobody has answered it. But by all means people, keep advocating it as the only route forward for OS4... :lol:
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show only replies by takemehomegrandma
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2012, 09:55:53 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;689486
The scary thing is that he regularly posts on MorphZone




Quote
the negativity is damned counterproductive.


Oh my god, Did you just play the "negativity" card again, like PPC would magically become a viable future desktop platform just because people would say nice things about it? That's almost criminally naive! It's not "negativity" that's killing off OS4, it's a future totally depending on $3,000 PPC systems offering half a decade old bang for those bucks! A waste of money, and a waste of time. In other words, not at all very productive!
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2012, 10:27:51 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;689517
We'll see. The word from a game developer I know who has a Wii-U is that it is. It would be stupid of him to lie, but it might not be the final product. The first Wii devkits were basically gamecube devkits with extra bits added. Although with the launch not that far off, they'll need to get a move on.
 
The "based on POWER7 architecture" is probably just marketing talk. Like Nintendo did when they said the N64 was based on a Silicon Graphics workstation. It sort of was, just a heavily cut down version of an older generation. The POWER7 is not actually that fast to start with though, watson is fast because there are >2000 of them.
 
After the hard to program PS3, I would expect the PS4 to be a linux based x86-64 box with a lot of GPGPU cores used with OpenCL. The 720 is a tougher call, but something similar with windows instead of linux & directcompute instead of opencl would not suprise me.


You could say that PS3 was "linux-based" :) it'd be stretching the truth a bit but PS4 will be "linux-based" in the same way. As for OpenCL, not sure, it's a GPU from AMD/Ati that much is almost certain but they have their own GPGPU stuff, like Brooke, so might favour that instead.

I almost took a job on a Wii-U project but after developing for the Wii I have been seriously put off ever working on a Nintendo platform again. Friends tell me that they've gotten better but that's easy when you're the worst platform to develop on! Anyway, interesting that your friend says it's still based on the old CPU. I'd personally have thought it'd make more sense to just include that rust bucket and the entire Wii hardware on a single extra chip whilst using a newer multi-core design for the rest. Oh well.

Xbox720/Next, it'll be more of the same dashboard and DirectX11 & DirectCompute with the same extra access for those willing to use it. Just like the X360 but a lot faster, fix the negatives with the Xenon CPU - out of order would be nice but who knows wtf we'll actually get.

I think I'd like to get back into console dev', been doing mobile development instead for the last 4 months and it's a world of crap in comparison!
Be Positive towards the Amiga community!
 

Offline yssing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2002
  • Posts: 1517
    • Show only replies by yssing
    • http://www.yssing.org
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2012, 01:00:12 PM »
@takemehome

Well the thing is, that mobos based on PPC are being produced, the fact that you don't like them has nothing to do with them being produced or not. Its as simple as that!
 

Offline _ThEcRoW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2005
  • Posts: 753
  • Country: 00
    • Show only replies by _ThEcRoW
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2012, 01:29:23 PM »
What mobos apart from the acube ones are destined for desktop usage?
Amiga 1200 desktop. Apollo 030/50 Mhz 8mb ram + ClassicWB + Wb 3.1
Amiga 500 + ACA500Plus + 16gb CF | ECS Power!!!
C64 DTV + Keyboard mod. Waiting for a 1541 disk ve...
Mac Mini G4 1.42Ghz 1gb OSX(tiger)/Morphos 3.7 Registered
C64mini + usb drive with loads of games...
 

Offline yssing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2002
  • Posts: 1517
    • Show only replies by yssing
    • http://www.yssing.org
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2012, 01:51:54 PM »
A-eon, but every ppc mobo can bes used for desktops.
 

Offline Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 5348
    • Show only replies by Iggy
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2012, 03:17:40 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;689545




...criminally naive!...

That's not negative?
I refuse to be bullied by a Swede.
Your posts as of recent have bordered on trolling.
You're convinced that your opinions are facts.

BTW -Every X1000 produced has been sold within hours of its announced availability.

Not mass marketing, but pretty successful for a small production run item.

You have no real proof that an X86 or ARM based Amiga-like environment would be any more successful then our current platforms.

You like to make long verbose posts with logical justifications for your opinions, but they are just that...opinions NOT FACTS.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline billt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2002
  • Posts: 910
    • Show only replies by billt
    • http://www.billtoner.net
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2012, 03:20:35 PM »
Quote from: itix;689509
Freescale is probably the best source for powerpc desktop processors (i.e. e6500 core looks nice), too bad that nobody is building desktop computers from their processors.


I consider this e6500 to be my new minimum level of interest in PowerPC. How do we know that no one is going to build something? Documentation is only available to tier-1 customers, us little guys can't even get at it yet. I'm trying, and already have the NDA with them, just waiting...
Bill T
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 

Offline runequester

  • It\'s Amiga time!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 3695
    • Show only replies by runequester
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2012, 03:28:02 PM »
It's sort of amusing how the morph os guys seem to hate PPC the most.
 

Offline Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 5348
    • Show only replies by Iggy
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2012, 03:31:55 PM »
Quote from: runequester;689582
It's sort of amusing how the morph os guys seem to hate PPC the most.

Only a small percentage that has been vocally pushing for an ISA change.
I'm really happy with my 1.42 GHz G4 based system. I'd like a 2.3 to 2.7 GHZ G5 better, but I could live with what I've got for several more years.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Heiroglyph

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 1100
    • Show only replies by Heiroglyph
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2012, 05:43:37 PM »
None of this will matter in the long run.  The CPU is just a component.

Nobody cries that SCSI isn't the defacto standard these days, regardless of it's technical superiority, but somehow CPU's are sacred.  Price, availability and performance be damned.

OS4 and MorphOS dragging their feet in PPC land are just bringing about their own demise.  The longer they wait to go x86, the more AROS catches up.

Like it or not, when AROS eventually catches up usability wise, market forces will put x86 as the main CPU.  There are just too many cheaply available for it not to happen, it's inevitable.

OS4 is never going to be ported, but with the lead MorphOS has, if they moved to x86 now they could probably hold on to the majority of users based on having a polished, professional product and not lose the market to AROS.

Time will tell.
 

Offline commodorejohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2010
  • Posts: 3165
    • Show only replies by commodorejohn
    • http://www.commodorejohn.com
Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2012, 05:56:58 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;689540
PPC is **DEAD** as a desktop platform, even if the suitable CPU's would be here (which they aren't) it's simply not possible to build a viable desktop machine in the ultra-low volumes Acube/Aeon can afford, and those who *could* manage (like ASUS, Abit, MSI, etc) certainly won't do it, and I have asked this question previously in this thread: "Why doesn't anyone build desktop motherboards using PPC today?", and of course nobody has answered it.
You keep saying this, yet you keep failing to provide any reasoning by which it makes sense that you can claim this with such certainty. Certainly PPC is seeing little meaningful action in the consumer-level computing market now (but not none - even putting aside the X1000, which for all its prohibitive pricing is actually getting a second run, there's the LimePC Z9, which according to their specifications is up to 800MHz now, though they don't have a direct-order facility so I don't know if the price has come down, and probably others I've never even heard of.)

But you keep saying that it's "not possible" to build a decent custom board using chips that already exist (though you imply they don't,) yet you keep failing to provide any reason why that would be so. Computer design isn't magic - as others have said, that kind of thing is basically a senior project for an electronics-engineering major, it doesn't require Lost Knowledge of the Ancients and goat sacrifices at midnight on a new moon. Nor is there any reason it can't be financially feasible - production of custom multi-layer PCBs is dirt-cheap these days. I got one for a hobby project on the Vintage Computer Forum for $20; the parts cost more than that. Assembly is trickier, but there are people who do hobby surface-mount soldering, that isn't magic either, and I'd bet there are facilities that you can get to do it for you, just like board production. Let me ask again: what makes it so impossible?
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup