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Author Topic: Masjsta's A500 Vampire  (Read 2471 times)

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Offline amiadudeorwat

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #119 from previous page: October 02, 2016, 06:37:20 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;814745
It is impossible to be more compatible with an 040 than an 040, any deviation from an 040 makes it less compatible. It might run software that wouldn't run on an 040, but that is a different thing. oxypatcher/cyberpatcher/etc already solved the problem of emulated instructions years ago. So being more compatible in your sense isn't even true.

I've many years experience in emulation and one of the things I've found is that it sounds great to make one thing emulate more than one thing (i.e. a cpu that can run 030, 040 & 060 software), but you eventually run into problems and split it out. Or at least you do if you have the source, or the developer with the source cares about your issue.

Not to mention the lack of an FPU and MMU makes any software expecting either crash.  Also the piles of old games which don't require either which crash on the Vampire.
 

Offline ShK

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #120 on: October 02, 2016, 07:24:38 PM »
Quote from: amiadudeorwat;814746
Not to mention the lack of an FPU and MMU makes any software expecting either crash.  Also the piles of old games which don't require either which crash on the Vampire.


At the moment the quickest way to test program compatibility is WinUAE. Set 68EC040 ( nofpu / nommu ), JIT on, enable "do not wait blitter" and add 128MB z3 memory. In addition, you can install the P96/UAEgfx, if it is not floppy or whdload test.
 

Offline SpaceMonkey

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #121 on: October 02, 2016, 07:30:22 PM »
Do these games crash on a real 040
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 07:34:12 PM by SpaceMonkey »
 

Offline ShK

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #122 on: October 02, 2016, 07:37:54 PM »
Quote from: SpaceMonkey;814749
Do these games crash on a real 040


Hard to find EC model which can run extreme speed for comparison.
 

Offline SpaceMonkey

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #123 on: October 02, 2016, 08:05:15 PM »
Quote from: ShK;814751
Hard to find EC model which can run extreme speed for comparison.


"extreme speed" not a game i recognise, are you saying it doesn't run on a real 040 \040ec
 

Offline ShK

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #124 on: October 02, 2016, 08:09:07 PM »
Quote from: SpaceMonkey;814752
"extreme speed" not a game i recognise, are you saying it doesn't run on a real 040 \040ec

Some games/demos timing goes bad when running extreme speed. 040\040ec is not most widely used platform for games http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=34854
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #125 on: October 02, 2016, 08:18:16 PM »
Quote from: ShK;814753
Some games/demos timing goes bad when running extreme speed. 040\040ec is not most widely used platform for games http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=34854

I found the 28mhz 68000 was pretty good for old games. Although the switch on the back which could instantly slow it back to 7mhz was useful when there was an issue. Some demos were improved by running at 28mhz, at some point I need to resurrect that system. Of course the benefit is that it's using 68000 exception frames and instruction decoding. If you could switch between different cpu compatibility then it would be awesome. Is move sr privileged on the Apollo core?

Old games would usually be running from chip ram, so they shouldn't be running drastically faster anyway. Unless it's not waiting for the caches to be enabled.

Doesn't whdload solve all the issues running on an 040 though, how well is that running on Apollo?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 08:25:19 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline SpaceMonkey

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #126 on: October 02, 2016, 08:29:18 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;814754
I found the 28mhz 68000 was pretty good for old games. Although the switch on the back which could instantly slow it back to 7mhz was useful when there was an issue. Some demos were improved by running at 28mhz, at some point I need to resurrect that system. Of course the benefit is that it's using 68000 exception frames and instruction decoding. If you could switch between different cpu compatibility then it would be awesome. Is move sr privileged on the Apollo core?

Old games would usually be running from chip ram, so they shouldn't be running drastically faster anyway. Unless it's not waiting for the caches to be enabled.

Doesn't whdload solve all the issues running on an 040 though, how well is that running on Apollo?


I believe was talk of turn off the vampire but its was all (cpu,mem,vid)on or off
 

Offline johnklos

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #127 on: October 03, 2016, 12:11:58 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;814745
It is impossible to be more compatible with an 040 than an 040, any deviation from an 040 makes it less compatible. It might run software that wouldn't run on an 040, but that is a different thing. oxypatcher/cyberpatcher/etc already solved the problem of emulated instructions years ago. So being more compatible in your sense isn't even true.


What's being referred to here, I believe, is the option of being able to implement all instructions directly. FPU instructions which existed on the m68881 / m68882 but not on the m68040 can be built in to the FPGA, so exception traps don't need to run (which are much slower). Likewise, there'd be no sense in installing trap handlers for instructions missing in the m68060 if one had reasons to pretend to have an '060.

While a ROM and/or library can be loaded for trap handling (so from the OS point of view you're running as if you're on a real m68040), the code would just never get used. You could have complete systems which could move between a real m68k processor and an FPGA emulated superset processor without any compatibility issues.
 

guest11527

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #128 on: October 03, 2016, 01:13:18 AM »
Quote from: johnklos;814757
What's being referred to here, I believe, is the option of being able to implement all instructions directly. FPU instructions which existed on the m68881 / m68882 but not on the m68040 can be built in to the FPGA, so exception traps don't need to run (which are much slower).
Actually, what was said above was "to implement in a ROM", which can mean several things.

Seriously, transcendental functions in FPGA are no fun. Nobody sane in his mind would implement them directly in the core. The 68881/82 didn't do that either, it was rather a microcode implemented cordic algorithm which run the computation.

Whether this is the path that will be followed, or wether a software emulaton in 68K assembly will be used remained pretty much untold.

Besides, the problem is only partially the trap. The problem is that the trap and the emulation is in supervisor mode, which inhibits multitasking.

Quote from: johnklos;814757
While a ROM and/or library can be loaded for trap handling (so from the OS point of view you're running as if you're on a real m68040), the code would just never get used.
Well, there is supposed to be a ROM, but whether that ROM includes an emulation in 68K assembly or microcode to implement the functions remains to me unclear at this point. If that's just 68K code, I don't see in how far this provides an advantage over the current library implementation.


Quote from: johnklos;814757
You could have complete systems which could move between a real m68k processor and an FPGA emulated superset processor without any compatibility issues.

It depends on what you want. For me, this sounds satisfactory, but the point might actually be to depend precisely on the trapping. I do not know whether there is any software which uses this as a side effect. Seems a bit strange at least.
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #129 on: October 03, 2016, 06:42:26 AM »
The SAGA core implements a memory protection unit for both the CPU and itself.  It's simpler than an MMU but is already roughly equivalent to Mungwall.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #130 on: October 03, 2016, 09:22:41 AM »
Quote from: johnklos;814757
What's being referred to here, I believe, is the option of being able to implement all instructions directly.

Is it an option? Or is it enforced?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 09:26:28 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline kolla

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #131 on: October 03, 2016, 01:06:49 PM »
Quote from: Cosmos;814735
You are completely unaware of the reality...

Users want a computer easy to start = plug & play, all in rom...


Hey, I do not want that at all.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Cosmos

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #132 on: October 03, 2016, 03:40:27 PM »
Quote from: kolla;814772
Hey, I do not want that at all.

Kolla, you are an idiot like TR, so shut up !

Watch the Amiga 500, the PSOne, the N64... All these machines had great success with all the required stuff in rom...

You have a brain, you don't use it : I cannot do anything for you...

(Good translators : how to convert from french to english : "Plus c'est simple à comprendre et moins tu comprends" ?)

(More it's easier to understand and less you understand ? Correct ??)

Offline psxphill

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #133 on: October 03, 2016, 06:12:54 PM »
Quote from: Cosmos;814778
Watch the Amiga 500, the PSOne, the N64... All these machines had great success with all the required stuff in rom...

Most games ignored the rom apart from reading the bootblock, but if you did anything with workbench then you needed to load a lot of things that weren't in rom.

IMO a flash chip with kickstart and a writable file system would be the best approach moving forward. ROM is kinda limited, you can't update it.
 

Offline Fats

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #134 on: October 03, 2016, 07:35:05 PM »
Quote from: Cosmos;814778
Kolla, you are an idiot like TR, so shut up !

Watch the Amiga 500, the PSOne, the N64... All these machines had great success with all the required stuff in rom...

You have a brain, you don't use it : I cannot do anything for you...


I don't mind being stupid, as long as I am not arrogant.
Trust me...                                              I know what I\'m doing