Possibly looking for 1260 card

[ChaosLord]

Time to add 2 IEEE Floating Point Numbers:
68060 = 3 cycles
68030 = around 150 cycles

150/3 = 50x speed = 5000% (That is 5 thousand % not 5 hundred %)

68030 fail
68060 win!

[Damion]

Yeah, no sh!t the '060 is a faster processor.

I was responding specifically to Iggy's comment about chipset access, which is generally better with the '030 cards.

Blizzard 1260/50:

chip $000F0000 readw 1328.7 ns normal 1.5 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readl 1329.4 ns normal 3.0 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readm 1332.9 ns normal 3.0 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writew 1119.2 ns normal 1.8 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writel 1118.9 ns normal 3.6 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writem 1121.8 ns normal 3.6 * 10^6 byte/s

Blizzard 1230/50:

chip $000F0000 readw 903.4 ns norm 2.2 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readl 903.7 ns norm 4.4 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readm 636.4 ns norm 6.3 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writew 575.6 ns norm 3.5 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writel 574.8 ns norm 6.9 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writem 575.3 ns norm 7.0 * 10^6 byte/s


@Franko

Never actually seen an "060 AGA demo" but reckon it would be pretty weird purchasing an 060 just to watch one...

Never heard of the demoscene?

[Iggy]

Time to add 2 IEEE Floating Point Numbers:
68060 = 3 cycles
68030 = around 150 cycles

150/3 = 50x speed = 5000% (That is 5 thousand % not 5 hundred %)

68030 fail
68060 win!

Pointless unless you know of a program that executes instruction that solely affect the CPU and as in the example above do nothing but floating number calculations.

Now we're at 3000x and counting. I'm not even getting baited into further discussions along these lines.

What's it do for the average Amiga software package?

[Damion]

Exactly. We all know the 060 is faster, but is it worth $500 to play Lethal Weapon and Superfrog. Especially when you already have what's probably the best '030 card ever made.

[Franko]

@Franko

Never heard of the demoscene?

Yup, but why would I want to watch "demos"...

[Franko]

Pointless unless you know of a program that executes instruction that solely affect the CPU and as in the example above do nothing but floating number calculations.

Now we're at 3000x and counting. I'm not even getting baited into further discussions along these lines.

What's it do for the average Amiga software package?

The 060 version of PPaint uses 060 specific code for example that solely effect the CPU and not the FPU...

[Iggy]

Yeah, no sh!t the '060 is a faster processor.

I was responding specifically to Iggy's comment about chipset access, which is generally better with the '030 cards.

Blizzard 1260/50:

chip $000F0000 readw 1328.7 ns normal 1.5 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readl 1329.4 ns normal 3.0 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readm 1332.9 ns normal 3.0 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writew 1119.2 ns normal 1.8 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writel 1118.9 ns normal 3.6 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writem 1121.8 ns normal 3.6 * 10^6 byte/s

Blizzard 1230/50:

chip $000F0000 readw 903.4 ns norm 2.2 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readl 903.7 ns norm 4.4 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readm 636.4 ns norm 6.3 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writew 575.6 ns norm 3.5 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writel 574.8 ns norm 6.9 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writem 575.3 ns norm 7.0 * 10^6 byte/s


@Franko



Never heard of the demoscene?

Actually, we're back to that word again - faster.
Those two processors are operating at the same speed.
The '60 is undoubtedly the more powerful of the two, but how much faster the system is is more subjective.

[stefcep2]

To deviate ever-so-slightly from the subject at hand, does anyone know how an A4000 with 25MHz 040 compares with 50MHz 060 of the later A4000?

I've had both, and the 68060 is so much quicker in everything-particularly if you have an A3640 with its crippled memory bus.  

And YES AGA draw functions are faster on the 68060 too, I once knew why, but not now, sorry.  And i'm not talking about C2P, i mean even things like scala and dpaint which bang the AGA chipset directly are smoother and faster with graphical functions.

it really is a new order of performance when you go from the '040 to the '060.

[fishy_fiz]

That's what I was kind of information I was hoping someone would quote me. This is why the difference between real performance gains and figures based solely on CPU performance data are so varied.

OK, now when say you run a video game, what's the increase in FPS when moving from an '030 to an '60? It's certainly not on the order of 5 times, is it?

And my G4 based Powermac, its not really 42 times more powerful than your '60 is it? Not really anymore than an i7 is 30 times more powerful than my G4.

We're completely outside any reasonable comparisons at this point.

The best way to look at this is the same as its always been, via application benchmarks.

So we all are clear on this, a 5  times higher CPU mips rating does not make a system five time "faster". Its a measurement of the CPU alone. And the Amiga relies on a lot of custom chips that gain little from a faster CPU.

The irritating thing is, Chaos knows this. That's why so much of the Natami's design features updated components. Even if you could recreate the original Amiga chipset, would you want to?

Sure, the comparisons are silly, but that was the point. It's all old outdated, redundant technology in the current scheme of things, to point out that a pci bus can run at the same frequency as an '060 was ridiculous, so I responded as such. What does matter is if a user is happy with thier old computer gear, be it a g4 mac or an '060 based amiga.

As for the speed comparisons between an '030 and an '060, the comparisons are real. The cpus themselves are that much slower/faster than each other, but throw a custom chipset based amiga into the equation and things arent often that cut and dry. AGA has a bandwidth of about 14MBps, no cpu in the world is going to change that, and beyond a low end '040 the improvements in terms of gfx throughput arent going to scale the same as the cpu. This however doesnt mean its not a much more pleasant experience with the '060. Things like image decoding on an '030 you have to wait for, and you can see the image draw as it decodes. This sort of thing is massively better on an '060. Any sort of compressions (archives, mp3s, video files,etc.) is going to be a massively superior experience on an '060. Harddrive access, fast ram read/write (which also has a side effect of speeding up thing like fblit, etc.). When dealing with such limited resources an '060 really makes a lot of difference, even if its not going to increase framerates that scale with the cpu (unless using rtg). Gaming is still a better experience though, even with aga maxed out due to better response times from input. Id hazzard a guess at things being maybe 2x as fast in terms of gfx updates vs. '030 in games that arent cpu bound.

[Franko]

Actually, we're back to that word again - faster.
Those two processors are operating at the same speed.
The '60 is undoubtedly the more powerful of the two, but how much faster the system is is more subjective.

Nothing "subjective" about it an 060 set up with the likes of 060 specific math libraries, Fblit, Move16, etc... etc... runs rings around the best 030 for almost anything you do on an A1200...

[stefcep2]

Yeah, no sh!t the '060 is a faster processor.

I was responding specifically to Iggy's comment about chipset access, which is generally better with the '030 cards.

Blizzard 1260/50:

chip $000F0000 readw 1328.7 ns normal 1.5 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readl 1329.4 ns normal 3.0 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readm 1332.9 ns normal 3.0 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writew 1119.2 ns normal 1.8 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writel 1118.9 ns normal 3.6 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writem 1121.8 ns normal 3.6 * 10^6 byte/s

Blizzard 1230/50:

chip $000F0000 readw 903.4 ns norm 2.2 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readl 903.7 ns norm 4.4 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 readm 636.4 ns norm 6.3 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writew 575.6 ns norm 3.5 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writel 574.8 ns norm 6.9 * 10^6 byte/s
chip $000F0000 writem 575.3 ns norm 7.0 * 10^6 byte/s


@Franko



Never heard of the demoscene?

Nor sure if we're talking about the same thing, but I know I read a review of various '60 boards in one of the mags back in the day which did some benchmarks that proved the '060 did improve AGA functions over all other processors, and the weird thing was that which functions were improved and by how much depended on the exact card in question.

[Iggy]

Sure, the comparisons are silly, but that was the point. It's all old outdated, redundant technology in the current scheme of things, to point out that a pci bus can run at the same frequency as an '060 was ridiculous, so I responded as such. What does matter is if a user is happy with thier old computer gear, be it a g4 mac or an '060 based amiga.

As for the speed comparisons between an '030 and an '060, the comparisons are real. The cpus themselves are that much slower/faster than each other, but throw a custom chipset based amiga into the equation and things arent often that cut and dry. AGA has a bandwidth of about 14MBps, no cpu in the world is going to change that, and beyond a low end '040 the improvements in terms of gfx throughput arent going to scale the same as the cpu. This however doesnt mean its not a much more pleasant experience with the '060. Things like image decoding on an '030 you have to wait for, and you can see the image draw as it decodes. This sort of thing is massively better on an '060. Any sort of compressions (archives, mp3s, video files,etc.) is going to be a massively superior experience on an '060. Harddrive access, fast ram read/write (which also has a side effect of speeding up thing like fblit, etc.). When dealing with such limited resources an '060 really makes a lot of difference, even if its not going to increase framerates that scale with the cpu (unless using rtg). Gaming is still a better experience though, even with aga maxed out due to better response times from input. Id hazzard a guess at things being maybe 2x as fast in terms of gfx updates vs. '030 in games that arent cpu bound.

That, 2X, I could see. And I'll leave it to you guys if you want to use mp3s or video files on an Amiga.
While I take mp3s for granted, I can barely push 720p video through what I'm running (and don't think I'll see 1080p until G5 support is introduced - no video card assisted coding/decoding).
But I can see your point. Even if you're only seeing 25 to 50% improvements in some packages, at the speed legacy hardware operates at you're going to notice a drastic improvement.

[ChaosLord]

What's it do for the average Amiga software package?

It makes the average Amiga software package run a lot faster.

[Iggy]

It makes the average Amiga software package run a lot faster.

That would have been a much easier to agree to statement.
And who doesn't want a more powerful processor?

I've always wondered about the economics of that purchase though.

I've never bought top of the line CPUs (always one or two step down) because in the X86 world that's about a third of the cost.

I still wonder how stupid the people that bought the $1000 Pentium EE processors feel right now.

Of course, while we've all been hashing this out, as Franko has pointed out a 1260 went for little more than the cost of a 56Mhz '030.

[Buzzfuzz]

I still wonder how stupid the people that bought the $1000 Pentium EE processors feel right now.

Lol :roflmao:
 
Actually I was that stupid yeah, I have a 975 EE, but as Franko said like a Blizzard 1260 it runs rings around most processors.
My 975 EE is running @ 4GHz on air cooling, no need for insane cooling upgrades, just a Prolimatech Megahalems Rev B with a push pull fan config at low rpm's.
 
But like any 060 card I also have a Cyberstorm 060/PPC 50/200 with 128MB, but this thing leaves a dust cloud when compared to it's SCSI performance on a Blizzard 1260 with SCSI kit.
 
Nothing beats a good powerful setup, but the question is, are you really going to use it ?
In the Amiga world, if you only do games, it's useless, your better off with a good 030.
Lesson learned already.
 
So then what ? it's not like your going to use it for video work, your pc is about 1000 times faster in that area.
Music ? well no need for a 060 there.
Demos ? yeah could be, but you have to be pretty good at it.
 
It's that I got the Cyberstorm and Blizzard 2060 / 1260 for reasonable prices, but at what they sell now, NO FREAKING WAY!

[A4000_Mad]

There is this one on evilbay uk, hasn't reached a crazy price yet but that doesn't usually happen until the last 15 minutes...

BLIZZARD060 32MB RAM

(actually bidding on it myself...

Hmmm... It is unusual for someone to point others in the direction of something they are bidding on themselves. Looks like you were are throwing down a gauntlet to me, matey