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Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS 4.x (future) Hardware Compatibility Discussions => Topic started by: Blizz1220 on July 23, 2013, 01:54:24 PM

Title: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 23, 2013, 01:54:24 PM
And what it will be like ?

I ask because I want to know ... :smack:
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: eliyahu on July 23, 2013, 01:56:59 PM
@Blizz1220

that's a good question. the truth is that only the AOS4 developers know the answer, and they ain't talkin'. ben hermans and ssolie both have talked about SMP in the past, but who knows? lots of MOS developers say it isn't even possible.

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 23, 2013, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;741758
And what it will be like ?

I ask because I want to know ... :smack:
I doubt OS4 would ever have SMP as there isn't really any proper SMP PPC hardware... AROS runs on SMP hardware and has run into the problems with the AmigaOS design that isn't really suited to SMP (and trying to make it work might actually be slower than a single CPU), but AROS is an open source research OS and as such devs have proposed various solutions which can be tested. Many of the design issues have been deprecated in AROS (for example the forbid() function) and exist only for compatibility with older software.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Matt_H on July 23, 2013, 03:08:39 PM
They've said it's on the to-do list, but there is no timeline as to when it will be done.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 03:24:12 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;741758
And what it will be like ?

I ask because I want to know ... :smack:


Once AmigaOS 4.2 is out. Not before.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: spirantho on July 23, 2013, 03:48:04 PM
My understanding is that AmigaOS is basically not great friends with SMP, because of the way that it works. For this reason, Hyperion are aiming at getting multi-processor support in without SMP - which is quite possible. I would imagine that they're aiming toward Aysmmetric MultiProcessing - which basically means (as far as I know - so please correct me if I'm wrong) that you have one processor core which does the system tasks, and farms out other tasks to other cores. Would people notice the difference between this and SMP? Probably not, especially on an OS as efficient as AmigaOS.
So, don't ask about SMP - ask about multi-processing, as SMP is just one type of multi-processing.

That's all my understanding - I don't know any more than anybody else... but that's what I've gleaned from the information around us.

What will it be like? No idea, but can't wait to find out!
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 23, 2013, 03:59:13 PM
Quote from: spirantho;741778
... especially on an OS as efficient as AmigaOS.
neither genuine amiga nor os4 i guess is so efficient in general as to justify that always repeated mantra. that about as true as that amiga is the best computer. there are areas where amiga is efficient in comparison to hardware it runs on, in particular on low memory machines with low res planar displays. but hardly there where all is based on linux ports anyway. everywhere where it is the case it will be about as efficient as genuine linux components or less, depending on quality of port.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 23, 2013, 04:08:29 PM
Will OS4 get SMP?

Maybe, but not before A*** does.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: billt on July 23, 2013, 05:22:54 PM
Well, I hope for lots and lots of cores at some point. And at some point, with SMP putting them all on the same memory bus, that would not be good. So I hope they are considering something that is more friendly to much larger number of cores than SMP would allow to work well. If I had a T4240 laptop (yea, dreaming, but this is my current tought-project, how would I make one), I would not want a core sitting around waiting so long for all other ones to finish with memory accesses before it could proceed. I think there is a separate memory controller/bus for each cluster of 4 cores on T4240. (by core I mean 4 dual-thread cores, so that would think it is a cluster of 8 thread units)

Who knows if we'll ever see such a beast. But I do hope they are looking further beyond dual and quad core (single-thread cores) things that currently go with SMP. At some point, even x86 and ARM will have to step past SMP as well.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 23, 2013, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;741758
And what it will be like ?

I ask because I want to know ... :smack:

On a aros discussion I can remember I believe AMP as concept but only special programmed software (that means new or adapted) would benefit from it, the others would still run with one core. But I do not know if they (the AROS devs) have made any decisions.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: LoadWB on July 23, 2013, 07:50:12 PM
It's interesting to see written here that the AmigaOS design is not SMP-friendly when I remember several articles written way-back-when which noted that AmigaOS was multi-processor ready.  I remember one of the articles was in the context of placement against MacOS.

Was the design and capabilities of AmigaOS over-stated back in the day?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;741820
It's interesting to see written here that the AmigaOS design is not SMP-friendly when I remember several articles written way-back-when which noted that AmigaOS was multi-processor ready.  I remember one of the articles was in the context of placement against MacOS.

Was the design and capabilities of AmigaOS over-stated back in the day?

Well I believe statement was that AmigaOS 4 was designed in more SMP friendly manner with some features like new memory managment in oS 4.1 but not before, however I might be wrong.

My experience with SMP is that it enables better multitasking (Windows, Linux) but to be trully used it needs "threaded software" updates, so its not all up to OS. So its long road to go that just starts with OS feature introduced.

Even sharing of one core for OS other for apps, or one managing one running app, is an enhancement to not being aware of other core.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 23, 2013, 07:57:40 PM
It was multi-processor ready and it used 060 and PPC at the same time ...

It's just that all the educated people claimed that there is no way to do true
SMP support without basically writing new Os  (like TMHG said once) ...

But I guess there is nothing a man can't achieve so I'm open minded and
would like to hear how they plan to do it ...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: ssolie on July 23, 2013, 09:21:34 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;741758
And what it will be like ?

I ask because I want to know ... :smack:

Yes.

Whether it is a textbook implementation of SMP or not is still not clear to me yet. But that's just my opinion. I know Hyperion still calls it SMP and that's also fine.

So why all the fuss suddenly?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: yssing on July 23, 2013, 09:39:24 PM
Quote from: ssolie;741831
yes.

Whether it is a textbook implementation of smp or not is still not clear to me yet. But that's just my opinion. I know hyperion still calls it smp and that's also fine.

So why all the fuss suddenly?


awesome!!!
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: dammy on July 23, 2013, 10:07:31 PM
Quote from: ssolie;741831
Yes.

Whether it is a textbook implementation of SMP or not is still not clear to me yet.


That sounds rather odd since you are the Team Leader for AOS4.

Quote
But that's just my opinion. I know Hyperion still calls it SMP and that's also fine.


Sort like being some-what pregnant. Since Hyperion is a professional OS company that's been around for what, nearly two decades, I would expect to hear exact terminology that is used by industrial professionals around the world.  It's only what, two people in that company, it's not like some marketing weasels were running their mouth before asking software engineering department if that is indeed possible and within the product's roadmap.

Quote
So why all the fuss suddenly?


The A1X1K has been out for a significant period of time now.  IIRC, the explicit reason for picking that CPU was to create a platform for SMP development of OS4 nearly 4 years ago (late 2009 for prototypes).  That's a long time IMO, so I don't see the "suddenly" apply to a question about the current status of SMP in OS4, more like just remembering something said long ago.

BTW Steve, will you be at AmiWest this year?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 23, 2013, 10:13:39 PM
Quote from: dammy;741846
That sounds rather odd since you are the Team Leader for AOS4.



Sort like being some-what pregnant. Since Hyperion is a professional OS company that's been around for what, nearly two decades, I would expect to hear exact terminology that is used by industrial professionals around the world.  It's only what, two people in that company, it's not like some marketing weasels were running their mouth before asking software engineering department if that is indeed possible and within the product's roadmap.



The A1X1K has been out for a significant period of time now.  IIRC, the explicit reason for picking that CPU was to create a platform for SMP development of OS4 nearly 4 years ago (late 2009 for prototypes).  That's a long time IMO, so I don't see the "suddenly" apply to a question about the current status of SMP in OS4, more like just remembering something said long ago.

BTW Steve, will you be at AmiWest this year?


I heard he will be demoing SMP on OS4 at AmiWest.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 23, 2013, 11:49:07 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;741822
It was multi-processor ready and it used 060 and PPC at the same time ...

It's just that all the educated people claimed that there is no way to do true
SMP support without basically writing new Os  (like TMHG said once) ...

But I guess there is nothing a man can't achieve so I'm open minded and
would like to hear how they plan to do it ...
I don't think AOS4 ever used both the 68k and the PPC at the same time. PowerUP and WarpOS used both at the same time, but that's not SMP, that's AMP (Asymmetric Multiprocessing)...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: ssolie on July 24, 2013, 01:31:01 AM
Quote from: dammy;741846
That sounds rather odd since you are the Team Leader for AOS4.
I call myself the AmigaOS Development Team Lead for AmigaOS.

I'm not going to play these games. When it's done I'll tell you more.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: ssolie on July 24, 2013, 01:32:33 AM
Quote from: nicholas;741849
I heard he will be demoing SMP on OS4 at AmiWest.

I never promised any such demo.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 01:47:35 AM
Quote from: ssolie;741885
I never promised any such demo.


Well i heard that someone is demoing an SMP Amiga OS. My source is never wrong.

Will you be there?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 01:50:31 AM
Quote from: ssolie;741884
I call myself the AmigaOS Development Team Lead for AmigaOS.


That wording implies you gave yourself that title.

Surely the Frieden brothers are the actual development leads based on amount of code committed and actual design and analysis drawn up prior to development?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: eliyahu on July 24, 2013, 02:01:20 AM
Quote from: nicholas;741888
Well i heard that someone is demoing an SMP Amiga OS. My source is never wrong.

Will you be there?

heh. someone know something someone's not telling? like something AROS-related, perhaps? ;)

anyway -- didn't we talk about SMP demos at amiwest in this thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=740249&postcount=45) already? i think ssolie has clarified his earlier AWN post sufficiently at this point. my thanks to ssolie for coming by to answer folks' questions. :)

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Terminills on July 24, 2013, 02:15:45 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;741891
heh. someone know something someone's not telling? like something AROS-related, perhaps? ;)

-- eliyahu


Why does it have to be AROS related?  Maybe is Morphos related? ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: eliyahu on July 24, 2013, 02:17:35 AM
tim,

to go off-topic a bit, you planning on making it to amiwest this year along with dammy? at somepoint next month i should start a thread on here so folks interested in coming can talk about it.

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 02:20:20 AM
Quote from: Terminills;741893
Why does it have to be AROS related?  Maybe is Morphos related? ;)

Maybe it's Umilator v2 related? ;)

I heard Bernd will be there this year.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 02:24:02 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;741894
tim,

to go off-topic a bit, you planning on making it to amiwest this year along with dammy? at somepoint next month i should start a thread on here so folks interested in coming can talk about it.

-- eliyahu


Do you know if there will be a web stream this year for us that can't (or aren't allowed!) to make it?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: eliyahu on July 24, 2013, 02:27:10 AM
Quote from: nicholas;741898
Do you know if there will be a web stream this year for us that can't (or aren't allowed!) to make it?

there usually is, at least for the presentations. last year was really tough because the internet access at the location was glacially slow. in previous years i've given a play-by-play of the keynotes on IRC if the video stream was down. a few days before the show, someone will post info on the video/audio streams.

oh, and everyone is allowed at amiwest. it's a lot of fun. even bill mcewen is welcome. :lol:

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 02:34:05 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;741900
there usually is, at least for the presentations. last year was really tough because the internet access at the location was glacially slow. in previous years i've given a play-by-play of the keynotes on IRC if the video stream was down. a few days before the show, someone will post info on the video/audio streams.

oh, and everyone is allowed at amiwest. it's a lot of fun. even bill mcewen is welcome. :lol:

-- eliyahu


Oh I'm sure I'm welcome but my missus says I'm not allowed! ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Terminills on July 24, 2013, 02:52:39 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;741894
tim,

to go off-topic a bit, you planning on making it to amiwest this year along with dammy? at somepoint next month i should start a thread on here so folks interested in coming can talk about it.

-- eliyahu

Depends on my schedule.  I'm hoping everything that needs to be finished before amiwest is done.   If it is I will be there.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Terminills on July 24, 2013, 02:53:31 AM
Quote from: nicholas;741897
Maybe it's Umilator v2 related? ;)

I heard Bernd will be there this year.


Oh that would be great news. ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 07:29:35 PM
Quote from: Terminills;741911
Oh that would be great news. ;)


Yeah, I can't wait to see the public reaction to the Amithlon killer! Bye bye OS4 and MorphOS! ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 24, 2013, 07:52:03 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742053
Yeah, I can't wait to see the public reaction to the Amithlon killer! Bye bye OS4 and MorphOS! ;)

We have ways of making you talk ... :):hammer: :rtfm: :roflmao:
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: minator on July 24, 2013, 08:42:43 PM
Quote from: spirantho;741778
My understanding is that AmigaOS is basically not great friends with SMP, because of the way that it works.

Simply put the existing Amiga OS design is incompatible with the whole idea of SMP.

The Amiga uses a single address space for everything including the OS.  There is also no real memory protection for apps or the OS.  Apps have direct access to the OS internals.

If you have more than one app running simultaneously on different processors both can write to the internals of the OS at the same time.  When this happens the OS will very rapidly crash due to data corruption.

Quote
For this reason, Hyperion are aiming at getting multi-processor support in without SMP - which is quite possible.

There is probably a way to hack on some form of multi-processing using OS proxies but this is going to slow things down.  Alternatively you could use an AMP systems that gives you a series of psuedo-independent OS instances (i.e. one copy of the system per processor).

Quote
Would people notice the difference between this and SMP? Probably not, especially on an OS as efficient as AmigaOS.

This matters a great deal.  
Many apps these days originated on Linux or other OSs.  If these apps can make use of multiple processors they can run faster.  These applications are designed for an SMP system, running them on a non SMP-system will get you no speedup because they won't be able to use the other processors.  You will have to rewrite any such applications for that to work.

Furthermore any existing Amiga apps will not be able to take advantage of the other processors either.  You will have to rewrite them to use the other processors as well.  This is no trivial rewrite, it will involve splitting the application into parts and somehow getting them parts to communicate and share data.  This is notoriously complicated.

...and I haven't even mentioned Amdahl's law.


The answer to this is very simple.  The MorphOS guys had it figured out years ago - you need design and build a new OS.  Unfortunately, it's a massive amount of work and will take many years to complete.


Quote
So, don't ask about SMP - ask about multi-processing, as SMP is just one type of multi-processing.

No, do.  It's quite important.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 24, 2013, 09:30:16 PM
Quote from: ssolie;741884
I call myself the AmigaOS Development Team Lead for AmigaOS.

I'm not going to play these games. When it's done I'll tell you more.


i see a room for improvements in that title. for instance "his truly enlightened" or so.;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 24, 2013, 09:34:19 PM
Quote
I heard Bernd will be there this year.
bernd meyer? is he cooking something too? thats news, also i thought spilling the beans is disencouraged.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 09:38:05 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742067
bernd meyer? is he cooking something too? thats news, also i thought spilling the beans is disencouraged.

Well it might be Harald Frank.  I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742054
We have ways of making you talk ... :):hammer: :rtfm: :roflmao:

I stopped taking drugs 10yrs ago but any truth serum you give me wouldn't have any effect. Neither would violence. ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 24, 2013, 09:52:37 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742070
I stopped taking drugs 10yrs ago but any truth serum you give me wouldn't have any effect. Neither would violence. ;)

Damn you :lol:

I really wish I knew what Bernd has to show but I guess
I can wait a little bit more :)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 24, 2013, 10:07:00 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742073
Damn you :lol:

I really wish I knew what Bernd has to show but I guess
I can wait a little bit more :)

It might not be Bernd. It could be Harald, or it could be MOS-Team or even der Frieden zwillinge. ;)

£1m into my offshore Jersey savings account might let me tell you though. ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 24, 2013, 10:18:20 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742074
It might not be Bernd. It could be Harald, or it could be MOS-Team or even der Frieden zwillinge. ;)

£1m into my offshore Jersey savings account might let me tell you though. ;)

Oh well it was worth a try :D
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 25, 2013, 11:04:33 AM
Quote from: minator;742058
Quote from: spirantho;741778
My understanding is that AmigaOS is basically not great friends with SMP, because of the way that it works.
Simply put the existing Amiga OS design is incompatible with the whole idea of SMP.

The Amiga uses a single address space for everything including the OS.  There is also no real memory protection for apps or the OS.  Apps have direct access to the OS internals.

If you have more than one app running simultaneously on different processors both can write to the internals of the OS at the same time.  When this happens the OS will very rapidly crash due to data corruption.


Yes, per design, per definition of "Amiga", there can't be SMP. Everyone knows this, it's a mystery why the opposite is still being claimed by some. It's not a matter of tweaking the API with a few function calls, it can not happen!

SMP in Amiga is like throwing up a stone in the air and expect it to stay there, hovering.

A stone won't fly. At least it won't hover!

And it doesn't matter if you play word-games, trying to change definitions, etc...

   "I never liked calling the feature "Hovering Stone" and I prefer to call it "Stone-in-Air". My reason is that you always get some egghead piping up and tossing definitions around. In my opinion, users don't care if it is "Hovering Stone" or "Airborne stone falling towards the ground" or WXYZ or whatever else as long as all the $3,000+ "AirStone-X1000" they paid for is spending time in the air at some point."

...an "Airborne stone falling towards the ground" may be one definition of "stone-in-air", but it's very far from "hovering"!
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 25, 2013, 11:05:14 AM
Quote from: minator;742058
Quote from: spirantho;741778
For this reason, Hyperion are aiming at getting multi-processor support in without SMP - which is quite possible.

There is probably a way to hack on some form of multi-processing using OS proxies but this is going to slow things down.  Alternatively you could use an AMP systems that gives you a series of psuedo-independent OS instances (i.e. one copy of the system per processor).


Yes it should be possible to add on some ASMP/AMP solution, it has been done before. PowerUP was a kind of AMP flavor, although quite special and unique since it used CPU's from different architecture. But the concept could still serve as an illustration of how such an implementation could look like from an OS/API/Application point of view.

But creating an API to use the second CPU/Core as a number-crunching co-processor, or indeed using it to run a "psuedo-independent OS instance", is fundamentally different from SMP, and SMP is what people generally is talking about when talking about multi-processing, SMP is simply put the de-facto definition of multi-processing today!

MorphOS also runs on a few dual-CPU systems, this isn't something unique for OS4, and the subject of whether it would be possible to implement some AMP solution to utilize the second CPU somehow has been up for discussion (http://www.morphzone.info/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8831&forum=11#95821) a few times. Would indeed be possible, probably not very difficult either. Question is rather whether the MorphOS Team finds it worthwhile, if the real life benefits would actually warrant the effort? Probably not, even if I personally is of the opinion that Reggae alone (http://www.morphzone.info/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=8831&post_id=95832&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1) could perhaps make it worthwhile (and some other media applications could perhaps also make benefit in an easy enough manner to make it worthwhile?). But OS4 doesn't have Reggae...

(Reggae is Amiga Datatypes done right! :) )
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 25, 2013, 11:07:40 AM
Quote from: minator;742058
Quote from: spirantho;741778
Would people notice the difference between this and SMP? Probably not, especially on an OS as efficient as AmigaOS.

This matters a great deal.  
Many apps these days originated on Linux or other OSs.  If these apps can make use of multiple processors they can run faster.  These applications are designed for an SMP system, running them on a non SMP-system will get you no speedup because they won't be able to use the other processors.  You will have to rewrite any such applications for that to work.

Furthermore any existing Amiga apps will not be able to take advantage of the other processors either.  You will have to rewrite them to use the other processors as well.  This is no trivial rewrite, it will involve splitting the application into parts and somehow getting them parts to communicate and share data.  This is notoriously complicated.

...and I haven't even mentioned Amdahl's law.

The answer to this is very simple.  The MorphOS guys had it figured out years ago - you need design and build a new OS.  Unfortunately, it's a massive amount of work and will take many years to complete.


Even if applications aren't recoded to actually be multi-threaded in an effective way (but merely ported/recompiled for the "new OS"), having different apps seamlessly spread out running on different CPU's (as well as all the various running OS components themselves) would still mean a general speedup. This is what most people generally mean when talking about multi-processing, a general speedup by having applications (or threads) distributed to run on all available CPU resources (multi-threading of course improves things even more, by increasing the "resolution" of the distribution). But then we are again talking about SMP, and SMP is incompatible with Amiga!

And the point is - If the cord to the legacy is to be cut, if we are to start with a clean slate (which would also enable the possibilities of 64-bit, true memory protection, etc), then the question arise: Why continue with PPC at all? You might as well migrate to x86 then, and gain access to real 2013 level desktop and laptop computers at affordable prices! So if they had been going SMP, there would no longer have been any need for $3.000 systems with incomparably poor performance, you could just use real 2013 level HW! This would also be the only way of expanding the size of a shrinking/dying community of users, maybe even to such a degree that it would be relevant to start thinking of the users as a real *market* again, which would in turn also be the only way of attracting new, fresh blood developers, which would in turn generate more users, which would in turn..., ..., ...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 25, 2013, 11:08:46 AM
Quote from: minator;742058
Quote from: spirantho;741778
So, don't ask about SMP - ask about multi-processing, as SMP is just one type of multi-processing.

No, do.  It's quite important.


Indeed, the difference is fundamental!

It's like apples and oranges, both may be fruit but they're not at all the same, not even similar.

The point is that when you have been selling $3.000+ HW/OS combos that has a pronounced SMP specification as one of the selling points (and also plans on selling others in the future), playing with words like this won't cut it.

An "Airborne stone falling towards the ground" is very far from "Hovering", both may be "stone-in-air", but while a "hovering stone" can be really useful and give a general overall performance improvement to the system, an "airborne stone falling towards the ground" will very much less so...

This DOES matter, the difference IS important! So, don't ask about multi-processing - ask about SMP!

;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Fats on July 25, 2013, 10:29:43 PM
Quote from: minator;742058
Simply put the existing Amiga OS design is incompatible with the whole idea of SMP.

The Amiga uses a single address space for everything including the OS.  There is also no real memory protection for apps or the OS.  Apps have direct access to the OS internals.

If you have more than one app running simultaneously on different processors both can write to the internals of the OS at the same time.  When this happens the OS will very rapidly crash due to data corruption.


This is exaggerating the problem. AmigaOS is a preemptive multitasking OS. This means that writing to shared (OS) data already has to be protected with Forbid()/Permit() or another locking mechanism or otherwise you would get data corruption also on a single CPU.
Problem is that on a multi-core system you have to stop all CPUs when Forbid() is called on one of them. As Forbid() is heavily used in AmigaOS likely SMP enabled OS will not see any speed improvement or may even run slower. So, biggest task of getting a performant SMP AmigaOS is replacing most of Forbid() calls in OS with other locking mechanisms. Likely a big task but not undoable.

Another problem is things like SysBase->ThisTask that have to give different values on the different cores but SysBase has to have the same pointer value. Also something I don't see as unsolvable by some clever MMU programming.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 25, 2013, 10:49:35 PM
@fats
interesting, how is the situation on aros? is there also as heavy usage of forbid/permit or has it been replaced with something else at least partly, im curious?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 25, 2013, 11:58:02 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742279
@fats
interesting, how is the situation on aros? is there also as heavy usage of forbid/permit or has it been replaced with something else at least partly, im curious?
AROS encourages the use of semaphores to lock resources.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: haywirepc on July 25, 2013, 11:59:54 PM
Just a thought but couldn't forbid calls be replaced with forbidx calls??

For example forbidx would only affect the processor the task was running on.

Or forbid1 forbid2 forbid3 forbid4 (1 for each core)

People once said dos programs could never multitask. Of course they could, just needed the right way to have a master program timeslice and handle them.

Just saying, there has to be a way to fix the amiga smp problem, even if programs need to be slightly fixed and recompiled.

When I look at all the ways amiga programmers pushed the limits with demos, I wonder why people are so quick to say ANYTHING can't be done by amiga programmers...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 12:15:08 AM
i just looked and cant find any occurrences of forbid() in aros source itself..;)
so it could likely only be found in particular legacy 68k code, which doesnt matter till someone will develop 68k smp accelerators for amiga, and even then it will only be a handicap of particular application that halts the whole system while executing own code, which is anyway (meant as) hacking away the multitasking..

so good news,apparently.. aros is smp ready..
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 12:16:25 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;742290
Just a thought but couldn't forbid calls be replaced with forbidx calls??

For example forbidx would only affect the processor the task was running on.

Or forbid1 forbid2 forbid3 forbid4 (1 for each core)

People once said dos programs could never multitask. Of course they could, just needed the right way to have a master program timeslice and handle them.

Just saying, there has to be a way to fix the amiga smp problem, even if programs need to be slightly fixed and recompiled.

When I look at all the ways amiga programmers pushed the limits with demos, I wonder why people are so quick to say ANYTHING can't be done by amiga programmers...
Once a task has called forbid(), it expects to have the entire machine to itself... If any other task were still running (on another CPU), they could both be using the same data structure (AmigaOS has a shared memory model)!
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: itix on July 26, 2013, 12:18:32 AM
Quote from: Fats;742273
Problem is that on a multi-core system you have to stop all CPUs when Forbid() is called on one of them. As Forbid() is heavily used in AmigaOS likely SMP enabled OS will not see any speed improvement or may even run slower. So, biggest task of getting a performant SMP AmigaOS is replacing most of Forbid() calls in OS with other locking mechanisms. Likely a big task but not undoable.


You cant remove Forbid() in the OS code easily because for example AllocMem() is guaranteed to not break Forbid(). Replacing Forbid() to semaphores can result in unexpected side effects.

But then this is just a performance optimization and is not directly related to multiprocessing.

Quote

Another problem is things like SysBase->ThisTask that have to give different values on the different cores but SysBase has to have the same pointer value. Also something I don't see as unsolvable by some clever MMU programming.


It is actually easy with MMU.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 12:26:30 AM
Quote from: itix;742300

It is actually easy with MMU.

again, the only architecture not guaranteeing mmu will probably be 68k, which isnt multicore by definition at least for the expectable future. aros could solve it by some ifdefs.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: itix on July 26, 2013, 12:37:18 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;742302
again, the only architecture not guaranteeing mmu will probably be 68k, which isnt multicore by definition at least for the expectable future. aros could solve it by some ifdefs.


However you have to figure out an alternative way to resolve SysBase-ThisTask. You know, FindTask(NULL) implementation is exactly like that. It only has "return SysBase->ThisTask" there. So when you are trying to fix a bump on your unpaved road to SMP you are going to find another bumps.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Methuselas on July 26, 2013, 02:58:35 AM
Quote from: nicholas;741783
Will OS4 get SMP?

Maybe, but not before A*** does.



Troll! :razz:



Everyone knows OS4 is the holy grail of modern computing, you Commie Terrorist! ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on July 26, 2013, 06:00:42 AM
Is it possible to have one version single core, and then slowly migrate the software to multi-core? You could dual boot either version.

Otherwise there is sandbox mode like a Java Virtual Machine.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: LoadWB on July 26, 2013, 07:00:32 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;742332
Is it possible to have one version single core, and then slowly migrate the software to multi-core? You could dual boot either version.

Otherwise there is sandbox mode like a Java Virtual Machine.


Would it be possible to invoke each 68k/PPC AmigaOS program in its own environment, a sort-of emulated AmigaOS instance in the vein of a VM?  Instead of each instance being isolated to its own virtual environment, having the virtual AmigaOS instead be "patched" with wrappers which would allow the AmigaOS VM to communicate with the host OS and other AOS VMs?

In this manner, the host OS could be designed as SMP with memory protection, while still offering backward compatibility to existing AOS software.  At least in my mind.  I'm curious to know how Apple had OSX run MacOS 9 software natively.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: haywirepc on July 26, 2013, 07:13:56 AM
All of this is bull****. If current amiga ng os systems can't do smp then say goodbye and reboot to ng/2

Include something to run 68k apps, and ng apps in some kinda sandbox and move on...

amd bulldozer is getting very common = 8 cores. 16 cores will soon be common or even more.

Adapt or die.

someone just posted a very attractive hardware solution for amiga ng/2.

Hey I just invented amiga ng/2.

Like silly billy, I should live off that for 15 years shouldn't I?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 07:53:17 AM
Quote
If current amiga ng os systems can't do smp then say goodbye and reboot to ng/2
or maybe ar** v1?;)

Quote
Include something to run 68k apps, and ng apps in some kinda sandbox and move on...
uae is a sandbox, isnt it?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 08:22:37 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;742342
uae is a sandbox, isnt it?

It would be nice not to have to resort to UAE.
The biggest problem you're going to have is the need to halt the other cores  when the one running AOS wants to execute a Forbid().
Its the simplest way to prevent a crash.

MorphOS will face a similar problem, but the developers are seriously considering dropping legacy compatibility.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 10:06:35 AM
Quote

It would be nice not to have to resort to UAE.

why? legacy code needs 68k emu anyway. uae/68k code may be treated as java of amiga world. one could push uea integration forward with some intelligent ideas. for instance perhaps it is possible to fire up only the 68k emulation and very necessary uae features first, on run of the 68k program to spare cpu power, then as soon as (and if at all) the program makes any call to amiga chipset features those could be dynamically thrown on in emulation.

Quote

The biggest problem you're going to have is the need to halt the other cores when the one running AOS wants to execute a Forbid().
Its the simplest way to prevent a crash.

apparently not an issue on aros anymore (waiting for confirmation), but may have to be improved, i still observe issues on 68k now and then, not knowing if they may be related.

Quote

MorphOS will face a similar problem, but the developers are seriously considering dropping legacy compatibility.

at the point all three systems will want to go for those extended features that will likely set them on the same level of backward compatibility aros is now, namely uae. lets face it.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 10:15:10 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;742350
why? legacy code needs 68k emu anyway. uae/68k code may be treated as java of amiga world. one could push uea integration forward with some intelligent ideas. for instance perhaps it is possible to fire up only the 68k emulation and very necessary uae features first, on run of the 68k program to spare cpu power, then as soon as (and if at all) the program makes any call to amiga chipset features those could be dynamically thrown on in emulation.


apparently not an issue on aros anymore (waiting for confirmation), but may have to be improved, i still observe issues on 68k now and then, not knowing if they may be related.


at the point all three systems will want to go for those extended features that will likely set them on the same level of backward compatibility aros is now, namely uae. lets face it.

Interesting ideas.
I spoiled by MorphOS' excellent JIT software.
Only 68k code needs translation.
Operating system calls are executed natively (and are faster than running UAE).
If I need chipset emulation, then I go to UAE.
Although, with faster, multi-core processors this overhead would be less objectionable.
Of course, if we jettison backward compatibility, what will we have?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 10:27:03 AM
Why do you not have backward compatibility when using UAE? You only have a problem with f.e. libraries that only exist for 68k and cannot be ported. I do not know how often this is the case and how many software needs this. And of course you have a problem with components written in assembler and thus not be portable. But if MorphOS dev are looking in future they have avoided this.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: pVC on July 26, 2013, 10:49:18 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742355
Why do you not have backward compatibility when using UAE? You only have a problem with f.e. libraries that only exist for 68k and cannot be ported. I do not know how often this is the case and how many software needs this. And of course you have a problem with components written in assembler and thus not be portable. But if MorphOS dev are looking in future they have avoided this.

I for example have still lots of 68k libraries, mui classes, shell commands, devices, datatypes, filesystems, commodities, system enhancement programs etc in use on my MorphOS setups. Many of them aren't available for porting anymore...

And then I want to use same ARexx ports, clipboards, filesystem, network etc with 68k apps. I don't know if there's something done for those in AROS "sandboxes" for example. Of course UAE is fine for games etc, but these kinds of resource sharing things come in my mind for productivity use. Not to talk about GUI part if application has several windows/screens etc? I wouldn't like to use them less integrated to main system...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 10:55:38 AM
JanusUAE is sharing clipboard but f.e. not AREXX port. You can add AREXX in AROS 68k by simply copy rexxsyslib and rexxmast. I know that there is some sort of AREXX implementation on AROS X86 but I do not think that the ports between both worlds are shared. Filesystem sharing should be possible (have not tested it myself because I mostly use AROS 68k on WinUAE). But even if all is shared there is a loss compared to the solution in MorphOS and AmigaOS. On the other hand the OS is freed to run on modern hardware.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 26, 2013, 11:03:18 AM
Quote from: Iggy;742352
Interesting ideas.
I spoiled by MorphOS' excellent JIT software.
Only 68k code needs translation.
Operating system calls are executed natively (and are faster than running UAE).
If I need chipset emulation, then I go to UAE.
Although, with faster, multi-core processors this overhead would be less objectionable.
Of course, if we jettison backward compatibility, what will we have?

PPC Linux with a butterfly logo ???

Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 11:10:31 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;742350

apparently not an issue on aros anymore (waiting for confirmation), but may have to be improved, i still observe issues on 68k now and then, not knowing if they may be related.


You are always going to have to have forbid() (and also disable()), and it is probably always going to be a nasty big lock over the whole system because that's part of the AmigaOS API and old Amiga program's expect it... But what you can do is "depreciate" the function, that is to say remove it from the API documentation and give developers other more fine grained locking mechanisms... That way it stays for compatibility, but is only used in some horrible old app that hopefully will be replaced with something nicer :-)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 11:11:13 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742355
Why do you not have backward compatibility when using UAE? You only have a problem with f.e. libraries that only exist for 68k and cannot be ported. I do not know how often this is the case and how many software needs this. And of course you have a problem with components written in assembler and thus not be portable. But if MorphOS dev are looking in future they have avoided this.


You can tell you are dealing with an AROS supporter by questions like these.
Because the system call will not be native, they will require interpretation.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 11:15:35 AM
Quote from: Iggy;742365
You can tell you are dealing with an AROS supporter by questions like these.
Because the system call will not be native, they will require interpretation.
And...?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 26, 2013, 11:29:45 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;742332
Is it possible to have one version single core, and then slowly migrate the software to multi-core? You could dual boot either version.


Of course you could have 2 separate OS's and dualboot between them (like you always could)...

Quote from: haywirepc;742341
All of this is bull****. If current amiga ng os systems can't do smp then say goodbye and reboot to ng/2


I think this is the plan for the MorphOS Team. At least they have said they will migrate to another CPU architecture and that they are working to make the OS 64-bit (on a virtual machine for development purposes). Possibly SMP etc as well while they're at it, who knows?

Quote from: Iggy;742343
It would be nice not to have to resort to UAE.


When you start incorporating things like SMP you don't have much of a choice, you need a sandbox for the legacy. Problem isn't the new/existing/still maintained applications (they can be adapted), problem is the old Amiga apps whose whole existence and ability to function requires the environment to be and behave in the Amiga way, and that is not compatible with SMP. If you are to move to x86/ARM you will also face little/big endian incompatibility. UAE is a quick and nice option IMHO. Works for OK AROS AFAIK. Indeed it's not the same as what we have today, but in order to move forward (x86, x64/64-bit, memory protection, possibility of going SMP etc) with all the benefits that may bring, I think this is a cheap price to pay.

Quote from: wawrzon;742350
at the point all three systems will want to go for those extended features that will likely set them on the same level of backward compatibility aros is now, namely uae. lets face it.


Funny thing is that if AROS would also go this "NG/2"-route, then a 68k "distro" of this version/branch of AROS would also have to use UAE for legacy Amiga 68k apps, even when running on a real 68k Amiga! (Not that there are a great deal of 68k Amigas with multiple CPU's :lol:, but the "NG/2"-differences in the OS itself would require it)

:)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 26, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
Why do you need SMP anyway , just to prove you can do it ?

How many Amiga apps or games do actually need all that speed ?

I can see benefit from MPlayer or Web Plugins using the other cores
in an AMP way but what is the benefit to forcing it into any Amiga Os ?

Hardware is fast enough for Amiga needs already , do you really have
to make it less Amiga just so you could gain questionable amount of
speed at the price of all that hard work ???
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 11:37:11 AM
Quote from: bloodline;742366
And...?

+1

I do not really understand either. On X86 you have X86 software, on ARM you have ARM, on PPC PPC, on 68k 68k. You cannot mix everything.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 11:39:07 AM
Quote from: bloodline;742366
And...?

And...AROS is inherently less compatible (and the least stable of the three NG OS').
Does anyone have a guess when it will be finished?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 26, 2013, 11:40:37 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742355
Why do you not have backward compatibility when using UAE? You only have a problem with f.e. libraries that only exist for 68k and cannot be ported. I do not know how often this is the case and how many software needs this. And of course you have a problem with components written in assembler and thus not be portable. But if MorphOS dev are looking in future they have avoided this.


The current MorphOS model (and its implementation) is beautiful, simply put. There is no denying in that. It would be sad to lose it in a way, kind of traumatic even, but IMHO taking the OS further by incorporating the features we are discussing here and also migrating to a different ISA wold be totally worth it.

There is no future on PPC, MorphOS has lived its life in this incarnation as long as it could, it has sure made the most out of it and utilized all the best HW, but I think the PPC road for MorphOS has come to its end. An ISA migration requires a change in the MorphOS model, which is sad, but it would allow the OS to evolve further. And when the legacy is cut off anyway, there is nothing (but time, energy and motivation) preventing an exploration of new, "modern" OS features. This could mean many great things!

:)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 11:44:05 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742369
+1

I do not really understand either. On X86 you have X86 software, on ARM you have ARM, on PPC PPC, on 68k 68k. You cannot mix everything.

Actually, on our PPCs, 68K code runs fine.
That's the point we've been trying to make (that so many of you aren't getting) old code, libraries, tools - far more seemlessly than with UAE.

At one time, to complete a MorphOS installation you had to install parts of AmigaOS (I believe that's still true if you want ARexx).
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 26, 2013, 11:53:38 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742369
You cannot mix everything.


On MorphOS you can! :)

Old 68k legacy apps (and libraries and other system components) happily mixed with new PPC ones, scheduled by the same scheduler and sharing the same HW and OS resources, in the same environment, in a completely seamless way (of course they aren't really 68k anymore but the binaries has been recompiled into native PPC binaries, but the apps don't even know this themselves, so... ;)). Please don't belittle this. It's not something trivial, it's not unimportant. The MorphOS environment *is* the Amiga environment, greatly improved, and where the meaning of 68k/PPC has been marginalized to a minimum, this is what makes it possible to say:

MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 11:59:47 AM
takemehomegrandma is right.
Its one of the things that makes the OS stand out
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 11:59:55 AM
Yes I know :-)

but that means that it sticks to PPC forever...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 12:05:24 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;742377
Yes I know :-)

but that means that it sticks to PPC forever...

I could think of worse things than a four core P5040, with the Abox running on one core.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 12:07:08 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742378
I could think of worse things than a four core P5040, with the Abox running on one core.

to what price?

I personal can only hope MorphOS sticks to PPC (as AmigaOS) so no competition for AROS on X86/X64 for a long time :-)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 12:16:18 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742364
You are always going to have to have forbid() (and also disable()), and it is probably always going to be a nasty big lock over the whole system because that's part of the AmigaOS API and old Amiga program's expect it... But what you can do is "depreciate" the function, that is to say remove it from the API documentation and give developers other more fine grained locking mechanisms... That way it stays for compatibility, but is only used in some horrible old app that hopefully will be replaced with something nicer :-)


but i wasnt able to find any forbid() in aros v1 source yesterday, can you point me to an occurence, so that i have even the slightest idea about the issue?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 12:19:56 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;742367
Funny thing is that if AROS would also go this "NG/2"-route, then a 68k "distro" of this version/branch of AROS would also have to use UAE for legacy Amiga 68k apps, even when running on a real 68k Amiga! (Not that there are a great deal of 68k Amigas with multiple CPU's :lol:, but the "NG/2"-differences in the OS itself would require it)

:)

personally i think it will have to be dealt with at the proper time, that means when it will become an issue. it has been also already talked of. possible solution is of course fork aros for 68k and update it from the main tree only where it is appropriate. something like that happens already, when krzysztof ports features from experimental aros v1 to public v0. v0 will never become v1, but will gain some of its portable features for the time being.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 26, 2013, 12:25:34 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;742379
to what price?

I personal can only hope MorphOS sticks to PPC (as AmigaOS) so no competition for AROS on X86/X64 for a long time :-)

You seem to be forgetting that Aros is free so "competition" ROFL

Morphos and Aros camps combined (let's leave millions of AOS 4 users
out of it ) , number in thousands of souls ...
New users are what is needed and if there is no new users coming now
that both Morphos and Aros are mature and everyone can afford them
then what is the whole point in investing even more time and muscle
in it ?

More promotion is what is needed , both Aros and Morphos are way
cool OSes from a general PC/Windows/Linux perspective and are
fun to use ...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 12:29:25 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742382
You seem to be forgetting that Aros is free so "competition" ROFL

Morphos and Aros camps combined (let's leave millions of AOS 4 users
out of it ) , number in thousands of souls ...
New users are what is needed and if there is no new users coming now
that both Morphos and Aros are mature and everyone can afford them
then what is the whole point in investing even more time and muscle
in it ?

More promotion is what is needed , both Aros and Morphos are way
cool OSes from a general PC/Windows/Linux perspective and are
fun to use ...

Yes they are. And I try that already (to a certain degree). The problem is no software no user, no user no software. We must overcome this circle. It is not a technical problem like many user think, like missing MP.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 12:29:41 PM
@Blizz1220

I'm a relatively new user to MorphOS.
And I didn't own a Amiga until last year.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 26, 2013, 12:42:53 PM
Well having some new cheap Amiga hardware that could be called
Amiga and run Morphos/Aros/AOS4 certainly would not hurt general
user numbers ...

The name Amiga lost all of it's value after Gateway but it is slowly
thanks to Internet and die-hard Amiga lunatics starting to get some
value again ... Even a few thousands new users coming to all three
camps combined would bring a welcoming change , only new users
have enough life left in them to promote Amiga further ...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 12:45:14 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742380
but i wasnt able to find any forbid() in aros v1 source yesterday, can you point me to an occurence, so that i have even the slightest idea about the issue?
forbid() is part of the exec.library API, and loads of Amiga software uses it as it is a quick and simple way of locking a resource and making sure your operation is atomic... But for a while now, AROS devs have been encouraged to use alternative locking methods that don't freeze the system.

Also there is no issue with AROS 68k or any other AROS port if AROS gets a working SMP implementation, if the system only have one CPU it will work just as AROS/AmigaOS does now... And key to any implementation is that is doesn't break older software anyway (even if that means the older software might be slowing down the newer software, if that is an issue, don't run the older software or rewrite it to take advantage of the newer systems).
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: kamelito on July 26, 2013, 12:48:16 PM
Permit() and Fobid() could still be patched to do whatever they want instead of the real thing.

Kamelito
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 12:48:29 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742390
forbid() is part of the exec.library API, and loads of Amiga software uses it as it is a quick and simple way of locking a resource and making sure your operation is atomic... But for a while now, AROS devs have been encouraged to use alternative locking methods that don't freeze the system.

Also there is no issue with AROS 68k or any other AROS port if AROS gets a working SMP implementation, if the system only have one CPU it will work just as AROS/AmigaOS does now... And key to any implementation is that is doesn't break older software anyway (even if that means the older software might be slowing down the newer software, if that is an issue, don't run the older software or rewrite it to take advantage of the newer systems).

I do not know what is planned. I personal would wish a kind of compatibility mode so it is possible to run it more compatible to old software or with new features when you only use newer software.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: kamelito;742392
Permit() and Fobid() could still be patched to do whatever they want instead of the real thing.

Kamelito

Don't start making sense, you'll piss someone off.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 01:14:24 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;742393
I do not know what is planned. I personal would wish a kind of compatibility mode so it is possible to run it more compatible to old software or with new features when you only use newer software.
A working SMP implementation wouldn't break compatibility :)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 01:29:59 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742397
A working SMP implementation wouldn't break compatibility :)

It was always planned for MorphOS (Qbox), so I don't see why it would be a problem either.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 01:30:35 PM
@bloodline:
ah, find them now, not sure why i missed them yesterday.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: _ThEcRoW on July 26, 2013, 02:04:12 PM
So definitely it won't have the smp route?. So what's the point in modern hardware if it can't live to the standards?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: vox on July 26, 2013, 02:11:22 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742403
It was always planned for MorphOS (Qbox), so I don't see why it would be a problem either.


But Qbox itself was never executed, nor any plans towards it were shown. In last discussions at MorphZone x86 transition was ment to replace the Qbox route.

Quote from: _ThEcRoW;742409
So definitely it won't have the smp route?. So what's the point in modern hardware if it can't live to the standards?[/QUOTE

It will have some kind of dual core implementation, more when we see how will it work and perform.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 02:29:22 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742403
It was always planned for MorphOS (Qbox), so I don't see why it would be a problem either.
Earlier you complained about AROS using UAE as a virtual machine, because of the fact that it would keep the 68k and native environments separate. But now you talk about the QBox, which would be a separate environment from the ABox (what you currently know as MorphOS)... There would be no mixing of environments if the morphOS guys ever decide to develop the QBox side with a user space...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 02:36:17 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742390
forbid() is part of the exec.library API, and loads of Amiga software uses it as it is a quick and simple way of locking a resource and making sure your operation is atomic... But for a while now, AROS devs have been encouraged to use alternative locking methods that don't freeze the system.

Also there is no issue with AROS 68k or any other AROS port if AROS gets a working SMP implementation, if the system only have one CPU it will work just as AROS/AmigaOS does now... And key to any implementation is that is doesn't break older software anyway (even if that means the older software might be slowing down the newer software, if that is an issue, don't run the older software or rewrite it to take advantage of the newer systems).


What if a modified exec was running on top of a modified Linux kernel that enabled SMP by distributing Amiga processes across various cores?

A kind of Amithlon on steroids? ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 02:39:38 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742423
What if a modified exec was running on top of a modified Linux kernel that enabled SMP by distributing Amiga processes across various cores?

A kind of Amithlon on steroids? ;)
That would be one solution ;) ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 02:40:01 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742419
Earlier you complained about AROS using UAE as a virtual machine, because of the fact that it would keep the 68k and native environments separate. But now you talk about the QBox, which would be a separate environment from the ABox (what you currently know as MorphOS)... There would be no mixing of environments if the morphOS guys ever decide to develop the QBox side with a user space...


Not neccessarily.  Who knows what they would do and how they would do it?

There are many ways to skin a cat as you know Matt. ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 02:42:01 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742419
Earlier you complained about AROS using UAE as a virtual machine, because of the fact that it would keep the 68k and native environments separate. But now you talk about the QBox, which would be a separate environment from the ABox (what you currently know as MorphOS)... There would be no mixing of environments if the morphOS guys ever decide to develop the QBox side with a user space...

Actually as they would probably feed a common graphic interface, there is always the possibility of transferring info from one to the other.

Again, the concept doesn't resemble UAE which goes out of its way to emulate the entire machine instead of reimplementing what it can natively

For a intelligent dude, your sure are trying hard to miss the point bloodline.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742427
Not neccessarily.  Who knows what they would do and how they would do it?

There are many ways to skin a cat as you know Matt. ;)
You are, of course, quite right. I'm just remembering how Ralph explained the ABox/QBox separation to me. The idea was to keep the legacy 68k/PPC stuff in the Abox and all the new stuff in the QBox.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 02:52:09 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742429
Actually as they would probably feed a common graphic interface, there is always the possibility of transferring info from one to the other.


UAE on AROS and native AROS apps shared a graphical user interface too... That was kind of the point :)

Quote

Again, the concept doesn't resemble UAE which goes out of its way to emulate the entire machine instead of reimplementing what it can natively


The advantage of the 68k emulation in AOS4 and MOS is that the 68k and PPC apps live in the same environment and can share libraries etc... It is only possible because the 68K and PPC are big endien...

Quote

For a intelligent dude, your sure are trying hard to miss the point bloodline.


I don't think you realise that the AROS UAE integration is supposed to be pretty seamless to the user... You might never know UAE is actually running!! :)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 02:56:10 PM
Quote from: Methuselas;742319
Troll! :razz:

Everyone knows OS4 is the holy grail of modern computing, you Commie Terrorist! ;)


:lol:

Surely Minix with AmiWM/X11, Ken's Icons and UAE with AROS 68k is the true future? ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 03:21:44 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742433
UAE on AROS and native AROS apps shared a graphical user interface too... That was kind of the point :)



The advantage of the 68k emulation in AOS4 and MOS is that the 68k and PPC apps live in the same environment and can share libraries etc... It is only possible because the 68K and PPC are big endien...



I don't think you realise that the AROS UAE integration is supposed to be pretty seamless to the user... You might never know UAE is actually running!! :)


A clone of Trance with seamless byte-swapping would be nice.  Shame Emumiga never got off the ground. :(
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 03:25:02 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742433
UAE on AROS and native AROS apps shared a graphical user interface too... That was kind of the point :)

Yeah, but you routinely keep ignoring the point that the OS calls don't need to going through interpretation.

What you are talking about is less efficient.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 03:29:15 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742441
A clone of Trance with seamless byte-swapping would be nice.  Shame Emumiga never got off the ground. :(
I know, I really liked the whole Emumiga concept, but it was a complex idea... I had a look at resurrecting it myself, but it was out of my league... Especially with how little time I had.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 03:34:35 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742442
Yeah, but you routinely keep ignoring the point that the OS calls don't need to going through interpretation.

What you are talking about is less efficient.


I know it is less efficient, but the idea is that it is only to run a few old apps and you get the bonus of all our old hardware hitting software working too (which you don't get with the AOS4/MOS system).

As a user running AROS on a 8Gig 3Ghz+ multicore computer, you are probably going not going to worry that it's slightly less efficient... But is more compatible :)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 03:42:45 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742444
I know it is less efficient, but the idea is that it is only to run a few old apps and you get the bonus of all our old hardware hitting software working too (which you don't get with the AOS4/MOS system).

As a user running AROS on a 8Gig 3Ghz+ multicore computer, you are probably going not going to worry that it's slightly less efficient... But is more compatible :)

Well, with AOS4 Classic you do because the hardware is there.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742446
Well, with AOS4 Classic you do because the hardware is there.
That's a little off topic, AOS4 classic is never going to have SMP :)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 03:54:58 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742447
That's a little off topic, AOS4 classic is never going to have SMP :)


There's nothing to stop an opensource OS that is yet to be written from running on the BPPC and farming out 68k processes to the onboard 060 though. ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 26, 2013, 03:57:06 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742450
There's nothing to stop an opensource OS that is yet to be written from running on the BPPC and farming out 68k processes to the onboard 060 though. ;)
The the CPUs in question are not identical, then that's not SMP ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 04:03:57 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742454
The the CPUs in question are not identical, then that's not SMP ;)


True. :)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 04:07:59 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742447
That's a little off topic, AOS4 classic is never going to have SMP :)

You are nitpicking.
And, no, there will never be new PPC accelerators for classic hardware.
Especially with more than one core.
At some point abandoning legacy hardware makes sense.

So i will agree with you that emulation should prove adequate.
Because you would hope that better native software would be developed and the old software marginalized.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 04:22:50 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742459
And, no, there will never be new PPC accelerators for classic hardware.
Especially with more than one core.


Not if we all start praying! ;)

http://ultimateppc.nl/
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 04:26:08 PM
for that project we would really need a wonder :-)

besides it was not able to do SMP. Or was something like PowerUP planned?
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Fats on July 26, 2013, 07:05:58 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742289
AROS encourages the use of semaphores to lock resources.


Currently AROS' Semaphore implementation is using Forbid()...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: LoadWB on July 26, 2013, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742450
There's nothing to stop an opensource OS that is yet to be written from running on the BPPC and farming out 68k processes to the onboard 060 though. ;)


Nay-sayers.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Fats on July 26, 2013, 07:19:00 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742370
Does anyone have a guess when it will be finished?


It will never be finished and I think you don't want that MorpOS ever will be declared finished...
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Fats on July 26, 2013, 07:20:26 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742423
What if a modified exec was running on top of a modified Linux kernel that enabled SMP by distributing Amiga processes across various cores?

A kind of Amithlon on steroids? ;)


This does not solve the problem for the programs relying on the fact that no other program will access memory between Forbid()/Permit().
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: Fats on July 26, 2013, 07:21:48 PM
Quote from: bloodline;742433
The advantage of the 68k emulation in AOS4 and MOS is that the 68k and PPC apps live in the same environment and can share libraries etc... It is only possible because the 68K and PPC are big endien...

And by using non-native C struct packing on the PPC side.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 07:25:19 PM
Quote from: Fats;742506
This does not solve the problem for the programs relying on the fact that no other program will access memory between Forbid()/Permit().


I'm more than sure that there are brains mightier than mine capable of working around that problem. ;)
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: itix on July 26, 2013, 08:55:16 PM
Quote from: Fats;742503
Currently AROS' Semaphore implementation is using Forbid()...

If you AROS developers find it desirable you can change it. Despite what so called eggheads say you can have Forbid() free SignalSemaphore.
Title: Re: Will OS4 have SMP after all
Post by: bloodline on July 28, 2013, 12:04:56 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742441
A clone of Trance with seamless byte-swapping would be nice.  Shame Emumiga never got off the ground. :(


Quote from: bloodline;742443
I know, I really liked the whole Emumiga concept, but it was a complex idea... I had a look at resurrecting it myself, but it was out of my league... Especially with how little time I had.


Just kicking around a few ideas early this morning... and It struck me that perhaps the Emumiga project started too high?

It was three ideas in one... A 68K emulator, A byte swapping thunking layer, and an App to AROS bridging layer...

I wonder if this could be done more simply... hmmm... off to AROS-exec.org I go :)