Harald Frank / AROS

From the AROS dev-list

From :     
Harald Frank
   
Reply-To :     
aros-dev@lists.hepe.com
   
To :     
aros-dev@sebigbos.hepe.com
   
Subject :     
[AROS-Dev] mail test, do not read..
   
Date :     
Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:24:44 +0100
   

as i said...

Flame away gents!

[odin]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Without giving to much away from a private subscription list (I might get thrown off!),  I think this could be good for AROS as he wrote the powerpci.library stuff for Amithlon, as long as he sticks to the licence model (Which I have no doubt he will), then this can only be a good thing, especially now that AROS is being proted to Pegasos and we have AHI support from Martin.

Bye bye OS4! ;-)

-edit-

Well, if it gets ported to AmigaONE or the cheaper Teron boards that is!

[Paul_Gadd]

Anyone who trusts Harald Frank or even goes in to any sort of partnership with him after his Amithlon stunt deserves what they get.

Anyone who trusts Harald Frank or even goes in to any sort of partnership with him after his Amithlon stunt deserves what they get.

I'm trying to be diplomatic here.  At least he's offered to help, as Billsey would probably say "Everyone deserves a second chance" Or summat like that! ;-)

[Paul_Gadd]

If he wants to help then great for AROS  but people must never trust a bad apple especially in the Amiga community.

"Everyone deserves a second chance" i would agree with that for most people.

[Hammer]

mdma wrote:
Without giving to much away from a private subscription list (I might get thrown off!),  I think this could be good for AROS as he wrote the powerpci.library stuff for Amithlon, as long as he sticks to the licence model (Which I have no doubt he will), then this can only be a good thing, especially now that AROS is being proted to Pegasos and we have AHI support from Martin.

Bye bye OS4! ;-)

-edit-

Well, if it gets ported to AmigaONE or the cheaper Teron boards that is!

Are you implying that Mr Frank will write a JIT 68K emulator for AROS? I don't recall AmigaOS API 3.x being AmigaOS API 4.x. Not quite a "bye bye OS4!" It's not even MorphOS level.

All I can say about AROS is nice (i.e. from some of my free time, I'm currently playing with build package 2003-04-26 X86 AROS). I wouldn't say it's "AmigaOS 4.0" at this time (i.e. goals are some what different).

AROS's current build and goals (legacy** goals seems to be bottom of the list) wouldn’t displace my active Amiga Forever/JIT-WinUAE 8.22.R6/AmigaOS 3.9 setup.  
 
**Running 68k applications on non-68k HW context. Running Amiga like OS has their limits.

Are you implying that Mr Frank will write a JIT 68K emulator for AROS? I don't recall AmigaOS API 3.x being AmigaOS API 4.x. Not quite a "bye bye OS4!" It's not even MorphOS level.

No, I was implying that it would be good to have proper pci device support in AROS, so that things like AHI and the like can have drivers written/ported quickly.  If the man can do it then great.

AROS's current build and goals (legacy** goals seems to be bottom of the list) wouldn?t displace my active Amiga Forever/JIT-WinUAE 8.22.R6/AmigaOS 3.9 setup.

Maybe, but AROS-native+TCP/IP+openpci+ahi+sblive+68k-JIT would replace amithlon for most people.  UAE can be ported to AROS for the Hardware bashing stuff, which would in turn replace Winblows/Linux+UAE-JIT for many people.

If the whole lot is then running on PPC motherboards, then why use AOS4/MorphOS.  At this rate AROS will probably be at this stage before AOS4 is released anyhow. (IMNSHO)

[Hammer]

No, I was implying that it would be good to have proper pci device support in AROS, so that things like AHI and the like can have drivers written/ported quickly. If the man can do it then great.

Sounds ok. Just hope it wouldn't back fire on AROS group.

Maybe, but AROS-native+TCP/IP+openpci+ahi+sblive+68k-JIT would replace amithlon for most people.

IF that was the case and it's on X86 (including sblive) platform, I'll jump ship without reservations. The near term goals of AROS wouldn’t permit that.  

I personally do have reservation on PowerPC platform not due to performance but on the companies backing it (i.e. the Motorola’s commitment issues and alternative PPC sources not just IBM). IF AMD takes PowerPC as it’s second CPU line instead of MIPS then  these factors may change (speculation/wish list/another topic).

UAE can be ported to AROS for the Hardware bashing stuff,

Of course. Any “address range trapping” like in AmigaOS 4.x would be nice.

which would in turn replace Winblows/Linux+UAE-JIT for many people.

That would be an assumption in regards to “many people”. It would be nice to have another real competitor in the consumer desktop OS market.

PS; I don't consider Linux (at this time) as a “consumer desktop OS” since one has to build/compile source codes not just consume (i.e. "obtain and play" mentality).

If the whole lot is then running on PPC motherboards, then why use AOS4/MorphOS.

Well, the AOS4 delivers the official API upgrade path i.e. like Windows 3.11 to Windows 95/98/ME to Windows XP to Windows XP 64(internal beta stage). It comes down to “the name” issue and rights to upgrading the API family.

Secondly, the AROS's focus is somewhat different to AOS4.

At this rate AROS will probably be at this stage before AOS4 is released anyhow. (IMNSHO)

Can you guarantee AROS will fulfill the needs and goals of AOS4?

[Floid]

Hammer wrote:
PS; I don't consider Linux (at this time) as a “consumer desktop OS” since one has to build/compile source codes not just consume (i.e. "obtain and play" mentality).

I hate to get pedantic, but can I ask that you recognize that you're recoiling at the idea of managing/configuring the build process yourself?  Compiling source *can* easily be as 'obtain and play' as installing binaries; similarly, there are many Linux distros that can happily run from binary packages.

The problem is more often "distro hell" - finding a package configured for your particular distribution, with no errors or idiosyncracies in its construction - and package management systems that don't handle appropriate versioning/rejection.  Most installation problems on *NIX are no different from installation problems on AmigaOS: putting files in the wrong directories, or looking for the wrong versions of libraries- it's just that the system is an order of magnitude more complex, and the user is probably an order of magnitude less familiar with it.

I wonder if AROS will go the way of Amithlon with this new addition ?

[falemagn]

Flame away gents!

Nicholas, you know that being in the AROS Dev team is a priviledge, and not a duty on our part, right? That means that there are some rules which have to be respected, the most important one being respect itself, respect for other developers.

It's not nice, to say the least, to exhort people to flame about the fact that one person, that you happen to not like, is part of the development team - just like you are. Harald Frank has been part of the Team, although just idled until now, since 1997 March 10th.

If Harald now wants to contribute to the project, he's free to do so, as everyone else, and will have to accept the licensing policies, just like everyone else. If you've got some personal opinions about Harald, keep them for yourself, or expose them in public - if you really can't help it - without involving AROS.

[Hammer]

Floid wrote:

Hammer wrote:
PS; I don't consider Linux (at this time) as a “consumer desktop OS” since one has to build/compile source codes not just consume (i.e. "obtain and play" mentality).

I hate to get pedantic, but can I ask that you recognize that you're recoiling at the idea of managing/configuring the build process yourself?  

I do enough of that at work and my home Linux box. One has recognized that not everyone has the mindset and time to build their own binaries (from source code). This topic is outside the Harald Frank/AROS issue.

This is why Tao’s VP and MS's dotNET has the opportunity to fix, solve and make things easier.
An effective invention comes into play when it makes things easier and makes use the limit time we have.

Compiling source *can* easily be as 'obtain and play' as installing binaries; similarly, there are many Linux distros that can happily run from binary packages.

What would be the conditions for that to happen?

Are you suggesting we go  back to command line interface? (Where’s the progress in that?)

putting files in the wrong directories, or looking for the wrong versions of libraries-

I rarely put files into the wrong directory (in regards to the AmigaOS). Anyway, we still have WIMP based Directory Opus 5 for this. A larger magnitude of problems will consume similar portion of time.  

These are some of the reasons why the Windows/X86 platform has a massive boat anchor (for home and office desktops).

Linux ecosystem may find itself backwards against the incoming transparent re-compiling ecosystems.  

The AmigaOS is a consumer desktop OS, i.e. a 'brain dead' user should be able play games (plug and play), manage their files, word process, paint, draw, encode, decode, send email, surf the net, insert plug and play cards (retail), install software via a common install shield/script, install drivers (without Linux style manual recompile) and ‘etc’.

Its just step up from mainstream “Playstation/GameCube/X-Box generation” users. Ask your self this question i.e. what was the original goals of the Amiga500/1200** in regards to it’s general usage?

**the last formula that worked with the Amiga.

PS; I do realize that AROS maybe the means towards this end (i.e. an open source *migaOS). That’s why I stated AROS is nice. It’s has potential.  

Nicholas, you know that being in the AROS Dev team is a priviledge, and not a duty on our part, right? That means that there are some rules which have to be respected, the most important one being respect itself, respect for other developers.

It's not nice, to say the least, to exhort people to flame about the fact that one person, that you happen to not like, is part of the development team - just like you are. Harald Frank has been part of the Team, although just idled until now, since 1997 March 10th.

If Harald now wants to contribute to the project, he's free to do so, as everyone else, and will have to accept the licensing policies, just like everyone else. If you've got some personal opinions about Harald, keep them for yourself, or expose them in public - if you really can't help it - without involving AROS.

@Fabio
As I said above I think that Haralds involvement is good for AROS especially on the pci stuff.

The "Flame away gents!" was a joke, maybe a silly one but meant good naturedly.  If Harald is offended (Are you reading Harald?), then I apologise.  I knew the "religious zealots" on here wouldn't be able to contain themselves, maybe I should've put my thoughts about Haralds involvement in my first post.  I have no problem with Harald at all.  He's never done anything to me, and I respect him as a developer.

Regards,
Nik

I dont think me or Paul are religious zealots... since we're the only two who responded with even mildly  negative comments... I think thats pretty funny to start labeling us things right away like that.