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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: SysAdmin on December 20, 2011, 03:58:13 AM

Title: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: SysAdmin on December 20, 2011, 03:58:13 AM
News from  BigBentheAussie via amigaworld.net

Commodore USA has a final challenge for this community that could enable them to have a new Commodore AMIGA with absolutely any of the features they want. We are serious about this, and we hope you will also take this offer seriously too, and contribute positively to the fruition of the Commodore AMIGA dream.

Allow me to outline our final challenge to the community, and how we can work together towards a unifying goal.
I have a list of obligations for the parties.

1. The community must definitively decide, through polls or whatever, what exactly it wants a Commodore AMIGA from Commodore USA to be.
2. Commodore USA will build and/or sell all product/s that will bear the official Commodore AMIGA brand.
3. Commodore USA will sell the first batch of a particular product AT (THEIR) COST to pre-paid customers only.
4. A minimum of 500 customers must pre-pay the entire amount in an independent account at a trusted institution (at the community's discretion) for the project to begin.
5. Commodore USA will negotiate for all required technology, be it software or hardware, and such costs will be divided by the amount of customers in the initial batch. So the more that join in, the lower the overall cost.

6. Commodore USA will outline all the costs, in as much detail as they are able to, before any customers make payment.
7. Commodore USA is ONLY paid on completion of the work to the satisfaction of the 500+ first batch customers, when the final product is ready to ship.
8. On project commencement, Commodore USA will provide monthly project updates until completion.
9. If Commodore USA does not perform the required work in 6 months of the project commencement date, then the 500+ customers have the option to withdraw immediately for a full refund of their prepayment.
10. Commodore USA reserve the right to affix a margin, at their discretion, to future sales of the product/s, past the initial batch.
11. The community will nominate two independent representatives or leaders who will liaise more closely with Commodore USA and report back to the community.
12. Sometimes negotiations require an NDA, that would limit public consumption of exact costs. In such circumstances that an NDA is required, the two nominated representatives of the community, who will also be under NDA, can independently verify such costs.
13. There will be no advertising of the product or its components by Commodore USA until project commencement.
14. In the meantime, Commodore USA will potentially continue with its current x86 based Commodore AMIGA plans, that will co-exist with the community's desired Commodore AMIGA branded product/s.

Warmest Regards,
Leo Nigro
Chief Technology Officer
Commodore USA, LLC
lan@commodoreusa.net
http://www.CommodoreUSA.net
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 20, 2011, 04:29:12 AM
Is he serious? Just in case he is, here's a 100% serious answer:

This "Numiga" project or whatever it winds up being called should be 68k-based. Whether that means an FPGA reimplementation like Natami or if there's some particular ColdFire model that doesn't have the existing ColdFire incompatibilities, or even a plain-old-silicon 68k CPU, I don't care. Just give me an 030/040 with an MMU and FPU running at a peppy clock speed.

It should feature audio and video hardware designed in the spirit of the Amiga chipset, i.e. providing capability through general openness and flexibility. I'm not going to get anal about whether it's truly custom or simply an array of existing parts, as long as it provides a similarly flexible-but-friendly approach to use. An OCS/AGA compatibility mode would be ideal, but if that's not possible, then it can be done in software, I guess.

It should not simply be "a Linux box." If CUSA is (as I've heard) legally prevented from bundling AROS with an "Amiga" branded product, they should at least provide the AROS devs with full hardware documentation so it can be easily ported, and direct buyers to check it out on their website and in the manuals (to whatever extent this is legally feasible.)

Above all, it should not be either a PC clone or an attempt to be a "modern" non-PC clone that puts keeping up with the Joneses ahead of being an interesting, elegant, and affordable system.

Give me something that fits those criteria, and I'll be first in line. I mean that.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: save2600 on December 20, 2011, 04:37:28 AM
Pretty much was going to be my response. I'd like to see all that jammed into an original A1000 case. A1000 keyboard and tank style mouse could be wireless too. CF and SD card slot could be hidden discretely behind a panel, where the 1050 normally sat.  :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Plaz on December 20, 2011, 04:46:57 AM
Make something that runs AmigaOS natively. (3.x or 4.x  to be decided)
Otherwise someone please point to me to the bounty that helps make this all stop.

Plaz
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: BigBenAussie on December 20, 2011, 05:04:52 AM
Can be any hardware or software or combination.
All money is held in escrow until project completion.
We do not see a cent until completion.
We will cost the project, and negotiate with any parties relevant to the product.
No one pays anything until they agree to the cost.
If you want to lower the cost, pick something relatively easy or realistic...or get more people in the initial batch....which must be a minimum of 500 customers.
Any further development or funds required to bring the project to fruition will be part of the costs.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: amigadave on December 20, 2011, 05:05:04 AM
Nice thought on Leo's part, but it will never happen.  Who in this community thinks that there are 500+ members left that can;

A. Agree on the specifications, both hardware and OS for such a new Amiga that does NOT conflict with the legal agreement with Hyperion that prevents Amiga Inc. or any of it's licensee's from selling Amiga branded computers that run AmigaOS1.x to 4.x.

B. Are willing to pre-order such a system from a company that most of the remaining Amiga community dislikes (big under statement).

C. Believes that CUSA has the ability to produce a new system within 6 months (or 6 years) that will meet the demands of these remaining Amiga enthusiasts.

If there are 500+ current, or former Amiga users that can agree on a design that could be put together in 6 months and there was some way around the legal problems of having the Amiga computer name tied to any AmigaOS, or Amiga-Like OS, maybe something could be done.

The only way I could see this working would be some kind of partnership between CUSA & Hyperion, or if CUSA could fund and produce the Natami project without running into any legal problems from Hyperion, perhaps by selling it without any OS, or if the lawyers could make it work with AROS68k without violating the agreement between A Inc. & Hyperion.

I would love to see something happen, as any new Amiga development that raises the awareness of the Amiga and also meets the expectations of at least 500+ current and/or former Amiga users, would be a good thing.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: BigBenAussie on December 20, 2011, 05:08:57 AM
Don't worry about the Hyperion agreement so much.
If it is relevant to the product, then there will be negotiations with the relevant parties to determine the cost to the project.
If it is too much, then the community could opt for the second most desirable product, until they settle on something in the realm of the possible.
Assume anything is possible....and we will go see if it is....and get back to you.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: NomadOfNor on December 20, 2011, 05:10:13 AM
Been a long time since I've logged on here, but I'm pretty much with Plaz on this: give us something either 68k-based or PPC-based, capable of running real, actual AmigaOS, not some kind of AmigaOS-lookalike running on top of Linux on an x86 like your PC64 is to the old C64.  Maybe hook up with the makers of the NatAmi and make an A1000 and/or A1200 replica with that in it, or get with Hyperion and work on getting a variation of what will be going into their upcoming Amiga netbook, but with an A1000 or A1200 replica wrapped around it, or some other kind of desktop machine with one or the other of those in it.  Heck, do both a NatAmi version AND a version with the Amiga Netbook mobo in it.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: amigadave on December 20, 2011, 05:18:44 AM
Another thing to consider.

For myself, as someone who has ordered a "First Contact" X1000 system and someone who already owns several Amiga computers made by Commodore as well as several MorphOS compatible computers that are fast enough to run it very well, I am about done with purchasing any kind of hardware for my Amiga hobby and general computing needs.

With the many hardware choices we as a small community now have, I wonder how long it will take for many other Amiga users like myself to reach the same point that I am at, and there may be a drop off of new (and used) computer purchases by the people of this community.

I mean, once most of us that are interested in new Amiga and/or Amiga-Like computers buy one or two, aren't we going to stop buying hardware for a few years?

Unless new hardware comes out that is so much better than what we already have bought, why would we continue to buy more of the same with only a small increase in clock speed?  We are not typical PC buyers who will be willing to spend $1,000 to $3,500 every 2 or 3 years, (are we?).

I know that after I get my X1000 for running OS4, coupled with my dual 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac & 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook for running MorphOS, I will only be interested in better software for a long time.

Maybe I am wrong and there will be a sustainable market for new Amiga, AmigaOne systems for many years to come.  Prove me wrong.

Edit:  Thanks for the quick clarification BigBen.  I for one do appreciate the possibility, even though I know it is an outside chance that anything will come from it.  I give you and CUSA credit for at least trying.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: amigadave on December 20, 2011, 05:32:41 AM
Personally, my first choice would probably be a partnership with the guys doing the Natami, as I have pretty much already decided to purchase one of those in the future as my next Amiga hobby purchase (and probably last in a long time).

A Natami in a retro A1000 case design would be awesome.  I like the idea of the front panel where the memory cartridge fit in the A1000 opening for CD/DVD & memory card device access by flipping it down.  Another neat design feature could be to have the top of the retro A1000 case flip up like a laptop, to make it a compact home computer design with the keyboard below in the "garage" and the monitor hidden while not in use.  Sort of a desktop design that was as compact as a laptop, but not battery powered.  A Natami Laptop would also be a fantastic idea to make happen.

In other words, Leo, join with one of the existing Amiga projects, such as Natami, Hyperion & OS4, AROS, or MorphOS (even one of the FPGA products, like the MiniMig, or FPGA Arcade Replay, or the Clone-A from Individual Computers), instead of splitting the community even further with yet another hardware choice.

The community is already too fractured.  We do not need yet another division of this tiny community.

Edit:  I am sure you could get 500+ pre-orders for the Natami within 3 to 7 days from announcing that you would be producing it.  There are a lot of people watching that project and saving their money to spend on it.  Ask A-Eon and AmigaKit how long it took them to fill their pre-orders for the X1000 and you will see how much interest there still is in this community and that is for a top of the line (read somewhat expensive) Amiga alternative.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 20, 2011, 05:46:22 AM
The "final challenge" statement is patronizing from a company that's already made a whole hell of a lot of promises that were never reached, with PR that is beyond abhorrent, not to mention outright lies.  People I would not trust even if they were giving away super products, nevermind them making statements like "prepaid" this or that.

I'll support the NatAmi and FPGA Arcade guys directly, as well as the Morph and OS 4 guys, I'm afraid.

Fool me once, shame on me, etc... Good intentions paved the road to hell, etc... - and all that old cliche nonsense.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: koaftder on December 20, 2011, 07:14:19 AM
Work out an agreement with the Natami project so folks can get that in a properly branded Amiga case.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 20, 2011, 07:23:06 AM
Myself, I just need something that runs AmigaOS, preferably 4.x.
But....
1) If you think I'm going to trust any preorder money to a company that has a reputation for lying, and a CEO who thinks that it's ok to post personal emails publicly to a forum as a tit-for-tat retaliation..... Er.... no. You may have a decent name but that doesn't mean anything.
2) Any answers from the Amiga community are going to require a lot of technology. Who will be working on it? We're talking a load more than just a reskin here.
3) We've been told repeatedly that we the community don't matter to them. So why this?
4) Is this really C=USA asking (who I don't trust *at all*, or Leo Nigro, who I do trust and respect?

If this is a genuine statement from C=USA then great, but if they want to work with the community they have a LOT of reparations to make first.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: wizard66 on December 20, 2011, 09:36:20 AM
@CUSA

We the Amiga community, users and hardware designers have take things in are one hands with the ongoing projects like FPGA Arcade, Minimig and Natami.
So we don't need you, after seeing what you have done with the x86 C64 project.
It's just making a quick dollar with nothing new under the hood.
I don't trust you with my money and will never buy stuff in advance from your company.
You do not even have the rights for the OS.
So why not supporting the ongoing projects and make some nice C= cases for the fpga arcade, Natami etc.
Otherwise leave us alone.

Just my opinion
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Haranguer on December 20, 2011, 09:45:05 AM
Well, to put it simply, if you're going to put the Amiga name on a computer, make sure it ACTUALLY IS an Amiga (sorry for the shouting, but that needed to be shouted ...).  Don't offer me a Linux PC running UAE - I can do that without CUSA's help.

I could also build a PC running AROS myself, but I'd consider that a legitimate use of the name.

What I'd like to see is - a Natami, a Replay-based computer running the AGA Minimig core (yes, I know it's not finished yet ...), an AROS based PC, something that runs MorphOS ...

But, most of all, I want a computer that runs OS 4.x.  Admittedly, I'll be getting one soon - I've pre-ordered an X1000.

If CUSA really want to impress me, what I'd really, really like Santa to bring me is an Amiga touchpad, and perhaps an Amiga phone - this would require that OS 4.x be ported to ARM, 'cos I don't think you'll find a PPC touchpad, let alone a PPC phone.

If you could work with Hyperion to bring Amiga OS to standard architecture and to ARM, that would be enough for me.  That would be the best Christmas present of all.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Tension on December 20, 2011, 10:10:52 AM
Fcuk. Off.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: TheDaddy on December 20, 2011, 10:14:05 AM
Quote from: Tension;672024
Fcuk. Off.



Straight to the point, not messing about! :D

I wonder how many people feel like you do... :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: TCMSLP on December 20, 2011, 10:22:59 AM
I agree with the others.  You've proven you can make quality cases, so teaming up with one of the FPGA based solutions (ie Natami) and delivering a nice looking case (A1/3/4000 copy, plus keyboard or case to house an a1200 keyboard) seems like a realistic and achievable project with a reasonable expectation to make your minimum order.  Perhaps a changable rear plate could enable the case to be used for more than just the Natami.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Daedalus on December 20, 2011, 11:24:32 AM
Quote from: TCMSLP;672026
You've proven you can make quality cases,


Have they? There seemed to be a lot of noise about people having overheating issues with their first attempt. Maybe they've learned from that however...

To answer the question: A machine which runs AmigaOS (with whatever CPU you like), and runs OS4 and 68k software 100% transparently. That doesn't mean skinned or adapted Linux running UAE instances in windows, but means AmigaOS running natively on the machine. Fully cohesive and transparent, just like OS X is (or was) with PPC software and OS4 is with 68k software. Keyboards are already available with Amiga keys so that's taken care of, but feel free to do your own take on them.

I'd buy one anyway once price and performance were reasonable.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: gizz72 on December 20, 2011, 11:39:52 AM
@CUSA
Why not recreate the original A1200/A4000 boards for starters what commdorejohn has posted here (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59885), or make accelerators which would implement PPC upgrades to make use of AOS4.1. If you've proven you can do that, then what everyone else have said in this thread would follow suit.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: haywirepc on December 20, 2011, 11:57:58 AM
So after lying to the community, getting caught with your pants down stealing text of one of your early websites direct from apples website, stealing graphics without the authors permission, insulting the community and its various camps, posting fake pictures of your "factory in asia" claiming the amiga community is not your target audience, hyping vaporware products and announcing how many computer models that never arrived? Announcing then hyping new computer models that then mysteriously disappear from your website,NOW you come and dictate terms and expect 500+ people to prepay for one of your products?

What happened to the tens of thousands of c64's you were supposed to have in big box retails stores? I would think thats enough to keep you busy, but then that was probably just more bull**** and hype, cause I sure haven't seen any in any stores.

So after hyping this c64 thing for what almost 2 years and selling what TENS of units, now whats this a last act of desperation before you throw in the towel?

After telling everyone to basically **** off because your doing things your way you can't come back to the community and expect its support. You've been an arrogant ******* claiming your plans of x86/linux are so much better for the amiga community, so why not stick to those plans and show us why you were so right? Oh wait thats right, no one cares about you putting a theme on mint linux and calling it commodoreos.

If you really wanted to make right, how about following through with your one time claims and announcments of heavily supporting AROS financially? Oh thats right, that was just more bull**** you retracted as soon as it didn't fit in your plans. Another lie along the way. I'd think 10,000$ contributed to the bounty system would go a long way towards making people trust what you say again.

Until then, your just a bull****ter, and no one here can trust anything you or your "company" says.

Steven
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Jose on December 20, 2011, 12:15:10 PM
Well, since this is about writing nonsense anyway, I'd like a Pegasus like PPC motherboard with CPU processor card capable of holding latest PPC processors (Freescale and IBM) and memory included on the processor card for easier upgrade without having to buy new motherboard. I also want 2 PCIe X16 slots, 3 PCIe 1x and 2 or 3 PCI, USB3 and Gigabit ethernet. Basically a modern PPC motherboard with drivers ready to run AOS4 and MOS.

This can't be serious, the 6 months time line is completely unrealistic. Then there are probably more than 500 users interested but community is divided. Sounds more like coupon + TShirt part 2 if you ask me. The project would also have to be split in 4: AROS/OS4/MOS/Classic (OS4+MOS hardware are the same of course), cause that's how the community is split right now.

Besides, noone is gonna put their money on an Escrow account, at least I hope they don't! Just make the product and people will buy it, heck they are buying AmigaOneX1000's, which reminds me, you would have to make yours cheaper and you'll never get a license from Hyperion or MOS guys....

Forget it....
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Everblue on December 20, 2011, 12:21:38 PM
One can dream, no?

Recreate an A4000D with real hardware (not FPGA or x86 emulation) including custom chipsets and a fast 680x0 processor as well as a 1ghz+ PPC and of course, Amiga OS. Also, replace Zorro slots with PCI/PCI-E, IDE with Sata3, etc.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: A6000 on December 20, 2011, 12:54:44 PM
The NatAmi team want a manufacturing partner so if CUSA can finance a production run of 500 then that will bring the NatAmi to market sooner rather than later, and if "enough" NatAmi computers are sold then Hyperion will port OS 4.x to 68k purely because it is profitable to do so.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: skurk on December 20, 2011, 01:07:28 PM
Don't expect anything.  This is just a cheap flirt towards the "hardcore" community.

What they *want* to hear is what kind of PC do you want the next Amiga label on?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spihunter on December 20, 2011, 01:15:53 PM
Does final challenge mean that you guys will finally go away if nothing is worked out?.

Like others have said, If it doesn't run AmigaOS/MorphOS/Aros native then it's just another X86 sticker box.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 20, 2011, 02:21:05 PM
If you want my support, I would say only this:
Negotiate with Hyperion, MorphOS, support AROS and/or deliver a machine with an Amiga-like OS. I don't care which as long as you deliver a computer with an Amiga-like OS. Preferably affordable with a chance of a future. (Sorry guys, but that pretty much eliminates 68k or PPC.)

I also would not be against the Natami case option that others are suggesting here... but I'm less likely to buy into that.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Magitius on December 20, 2011, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: EDanaII;672047
*snip* Preferably affordable with a chance of a future. (Sorry guys, but that pretty much eliminates 68k or PPC.)

The upcoming N68050 and N68070 cores from the NatAmi team are hardly expensive...?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 20, 2011, 02:49:16 PM
And limited, ultimately, to 500 mhz, if I recall correctly. I'm not against Natami as a possible option, but in order for this to succeed, especially for the community's sake, it has to have a future. PPC and m68k are, effectively, dead ends. ARM or x86 would be better, but commodity hardware is your best hope and the further you move away from that the more that chance of success diminishes.

Now, I wouldn't mind a "fusion" project that uses Natami's architecture as a foundation, but, once again, the less commodity components it uses the smaller that future becomes...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Magitius on December 20, 2011, 03:05:33 PM
From the NatAmi questions & answers:

"How much can be gained by transferring the FPGA to a custom fixed function chip ?
Oversimplified answer:

A - Medium price FPGA ~ 100-200 MHz
B - Very expensive FPGA ~ 250-500 MHz
C - Custom Chip based on little reworked FPGA code ~ 500 MHz
D - Custom Chip complete redesigned 500 MHz - Several GHz

But creating custom chip  (ASIC) does cost a lot of money.
Option C costs some money but less than a million.
Option D is too expensive for the Amiga market.
For the best price/performance mis we target solution (A) for now. "
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Matt_H on December 20, 2011, 03:21:15 PM
@ BigBenAussie

Keep it simple, you say? I'm interested in a new keyboard that looks exactly like this (http://www.amiga-resistance.info/download_photos/a4000keyb_us_big.jpg) (or in black; branding not necessary) that I can plug into my Amiga's keyboard port or a USB port.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: wawrzon on December 20, 2011, 03:50:26 PM
áccording to this news item on aw.net
   
   http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6175
   
    ive opened an attempt on a dediacted poll as to investigate the common groud the amiga scene would agree as a contemporary solution if such was not available or not satisfactionary.
   
  http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34807&start=0&post_id=643972&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=44#643972
   
 note that the poll doent appear on the aw front page.
   
    supporting natami and other 68k fpga solutions like fpgaarcade as well as custom amiga case design are an option. feel free to choose.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 20, 2011, 04:13:46 PM
Specification is simple.

I want a machine that costs no more than a PS3, but has superior abilities to a £1200 i7 PC gaming rig.

And it must not run on Mac OSX/Linux/Windows of any kind.

How you implement this is up to you, I don't care.

As for people asking for 68k based machine are you also stipulating such a low powered PoS system must cost less than £30? If not then are you on drugs?

Why would I want to run games at the speed of a 386/486 PC in 2011 you loonies! :roflmao:
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 20, 2011, 04:25:24 PM
They aren't being received much better on AW than they are here.

Perhaps the community got the hint when we were told by C-USA for a year now that "we aren't their target market" and insulted us, lol.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: anglosaxonusa on December 20, 2011, 04:46:08 PM
Quote from: save2600;672000
Pretty much was going to be my response. I'd like to see all that jammed into an original A1000 case. A1000 keyboard and tank style mouse could be wireless too. CF and SD card slot could be hidden discretely behind a panel, where the 1050 normally sat.  :)

Yes.  Here's how that could be done cheaply:

Commodore USA buys Model-M clone keyboards from Unicomp.  The stock keyboard enclosure is jettisoned.  Commodore USA designs a replacement enclosure that is extended in the rear similar to the A1200 or A500.  Natami or other 68k hardware is integrated in the same enclosure as the keyboard.  The end result is that the new Amiga looks similar to a classic Amiga *and* has a bulletproof buckling spring keyboard mechanism.  In other words, it has the look and feel of a well built classic machine.  As a bonus, Model M parts are widely produced and readily available for repairs, etc.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: anglosaxonusa on December 20, 2011, 04:49:24 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;671999
Is he serious? Just in case he is, here's a 100% serious answer:

This "Numiga" project or whatever it winds up being called should be 68k-based. Whether that means an FPGA reimplementation like Natami or if there's some particular ColdFire model that doesn't have the existing ColdFire incompatibilities, or even a plain-old-silicon 68k CPU, I don't care. Just give me an 030/040 with an MMU and FPU running at a peppy clock speed.

It should feature audio and video hardware designed in the spirit of the Amiga chipset, i.e. providing capability through general openness and flexibility. I'm not going to get anal about whether it's truly custom or simply an array of existing parts, as long as it provides a similarly flexible-but-friendly approach to use. An OCS/AGA compatibility mode would be ideal, but if that's not possible, then it can be done in software, I guess.

It should not simply be "a Linux box." If CUSA is (as I've heard) legally prevented from bundling AROS with an "Amiga" branded product, they should at least provide the AROS devs with full hardware documentation so it can be easily ported, and direct buyers to check it out on their website and in the manuals (to whatever extent this is legally feasible.)

Above all, it should not be either a PC clone or an attempt to be a "modern" non-PC clone that puts keeping up with the Joneses ahead of being an interesting, elegant, and affordable system.

Give me something that fits those criteria, and I'll be first in line. I mean that.

+1

If you want the community's help, help the community bring back the 68k.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: XDelusion on December 20, 2011, 04:54:30 PM
The ONLY way I will support the PC route is if Amithlon is somehow magically resurrected and allowed to develop upon the road map that was planned for it before it was killed off.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 20, 2011, 04:57:55 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672063
I want a machine that costs no more than a PS3, but has superior abilities to a £1200 i7 PC gaming rig.
And while we're dreaming, I'd like a pony.

Quote
As for people asking for 68k based machine are you also stipulating such a low powered PoS system must cost less than £30? If not then are you on drugs?

Why would I want to run games at the speed of a 386/486 PC in 2011 you loonies!
No, I'm willing to pay a moderate sum for it. As for why, I don't care why you would want to, I want it because I find the idea a million times more interesting than some generic x86 box.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Middleman on December 20, 2011, 05:18:27 PM
I applaud Leo for coming out and asking this question. At least it is allowing everyone to vent their views and opinions (barring the negativity etc). As even I have my thoughts. If we can get past this…. :)

As I have said before, I have come to believe the Amiga line-up maybe should be split into two parts - a Classic Amiga (to please all retro fans) and a new x86 futuristic-looking Amiga PC either with native AmigaOS functionality built-in to the kernel for the mainstream market (lookup the latest Amithlon Revival Project with Linux kernel). Giving both choices to the market allows people to choose. But most importantly, makes the Amiga brand unique again and not just some 'clone'.

Personally I am in favour of two things. One system that is something akin to a retro A1200 AIO with a Natami/FPGA board or maybe a A1000 replica/A4000T replica - this is something I'd like to buy. An A1000/A4000T replica with a fully working X1000 based board could even be a neat idea.

For the second an x86 system, a new A500 based on the RG Marett designed casing with DVD slot loading drive would be a great model to have - that is something I seriously would like on my desk! If not, one based on your A1000 retro black unit would be ok, complete with the Model M keyboard and black optical wireless 1351 mouse, barring the open sockets on the bottom and huge Amiga logo (which should be shrunk). These would be great additions.

As for software for running these new 'old' machines esp. the Natami versions, I would suggest as companies you try to collaborate on some way where we as users could 'digitally download/buy' all the old games online to transfer them to the new systems (since disk drives are used less nowadays). Architecture is important but so is delivery. And we can't work our machines without software…

As for the x86 system, the bog standard Commodore OS is fine. But if there is a way for Amithlon/Umilator, AROS or AmigaOS to work on the x86 system then all the better….
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 20, 2011, 05:27:49 PM
IMO If we are going to have rice pudding performance it must be cheap, ie as cheap as buying a crappy 4000/030 on ebay today (about £250).

As for the OS it has to have an option to look either like Workbench 1.x and Workbench 2.x
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 20, 2011, 05:30:03 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672063
Specification is simple.

I want a machine that costs no more than a PS3, but has superior abilities to a £1200 i7 PC gaming rig.


I think it's been made clear enough, total cost divided by number of orders (minimum of 500 total) is what the final cost is going to be.  You want exotic never been seen before hardware, expect to pay actual costs for it.  If you want the cost lower per unit, get more then 500 people to put their money where their mouths are.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vox on December 20, 2011, 05:33:28 PM
9. If Commodore USA does not perform the required work in 6 months of the project commencement date, then the 500+ customers have the option to withdraw immediately for a full refund of their prepayment.
14. In the meantime, Commodore USA will potentially continue with its current x86 based Commodore AMIGA plans, that will co-exist with the community's desired Commodore AMIGA branded product/s.


Six months you play, while they conquer with the "clone wars"
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 20, 2011, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;672070
And while we're dreaming, I'd like a pony.


No, I'm willing to pay a moderate sum for it. As for why, I don't care why you would want to, I want it because I find the idea a million times more interesting than some generic x86 box.


Why not just buy a £200 A4000/030 from ebay then? Why bother.

As for the other comment, if I was paying i7 prices and essentially the entire dev cost is guaranteed via 500+ minimum pre-payments held in Escrow I expect something amazing. So if they did a machine costing £400-800 thats £200,000 to £400,000 waiting to be collected on day one, and that's ignoring future sales.

You know what, I think the best thing is if they just build reasonably priced replica cases for use with ATX/Micro ATX and sell them for a reasonable profit (ie max price £100 for the cases) and we can make our own Amiga's inside be it Natami or x86 + WinUAE.

Cases I would like recreated are A600, A1000, A1200, A3000. I can live with never seeing an A500 or A2000 case for the rest of my life.

(Commodore 486 PCs used Amiga 4000 cases anyway so not bothered).

My personal opinion though, apart from making cases and selling them to us, is Commodore USA just don't have the kind of talent in their employment to make a new Amiga. And seeing as this thread exists they don't really have the imagination either as we are being asked to tell them what they should make :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 20, 2011, 05:38:24 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672077
Why not just buy a £200 A4000/030 from ebay then? Why bother.
Because A. I'd like to get actual new hardware that has a potential longer lifespan, and more importantly B. it doesn't have to be just what an A4000 is; NatAmi has already exceeded the capabilities of old Amiga hardware, and they're not even finished yet.

Quote
My personal opinion though, apart from making cases and selling them to us, is Commodore USA just don't have the kind of talent in their employment to make a new Amiga. And seeing as this thread exists they don't really have the imagination either as we are being asked to tell them what they should make :)
Probably not, but as long as we're talking hypotheticals, I'll give a straight (hypothetical) answer.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: lsmart on December 20, 2011, 06:18:33 PM
Quote from: Transition;671998
1. The community must definitively decide, through polls or whatever, what exactly it wants a Commodore AMIGA from Commodore USA to be.

I don´t think this is ever going to happen. It´s hard enough to get two Amigans to agree on anything. You might get 500+ orders from them, if you present them with something nice, but I don´t think you can let them decide what it will be.

Being from germany myself I have refrained from ordering the new Commodore 64 and got something else instead, because there is always trouble with international shipping, so I wouldn´t buy anything unless it is distributed in the EU. I however run CommodoreOS (linux mint) on my laptop - exclusively at the moment, because the installer was buggy and deleted Windows from it, even though I selected to install in the other partition (which was the bigger one anyways and therefore preselected).

I wouldn´t make a product for the community - especially not on Amiga.org where you get funny flamewars between red / blue / Natami. The only thing the community agrees on, is that some time in the past, somebody at Amiga definitively got it right. But there is no consensus as to who or when - but Jay Miner is a strong candidate...

So if you really want to play it safe: Build an Amiga 1000 like machine with AGA & RTG in an A2000 tower case with a keyboard garage, let it run on a quad core G5 PPC and be binary compatible to Amiga OS3.9 in hardware and support Amiga OS4.1 and OpenGL and make it play HD 3D Video from BlueRay.:razz:

Oh and sell it for 500$ or below as most of us don´t have as much pocket money as we used to.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vox on December 20, 2011, 06:29:26 PM
Quote from: TheDaddy;672025
Straight to the point, not messing about! :D

I wonder how many people feel like you do... :)


+1

Its interesting that people DO BELIEVE what ..?
That CUSA can:

-  actually develop system?
- Order from their factories in China if get 500 preorders
- Improve existing  OS4 / AROS-Natami / MOS products?
- Have alliance wih Hyperion/Acube based on joint product Hyperion
   was never asked for?
- Buy existing Amiga product and rebrand it? Which product? And you would again pay more for re-brand?

Its not only a problem that "Community" is not single minded with the plan,
seems neither CUSA is.

The magic question is "what product is"

At the other hand, don`t mind that CUSA will NOT change its way on making its own Amiga line and advertising it.

Making community project secured by community is nothing to lose tactics, while you will not be able to object their main product line that meanwhile goes for advertising, while this project gets NDA. If 500 preorders fails, its the community "is wrong". As CUSA is company that neither designs hardware or software, what  can we believe is that they can rebrand existing products as usual.

Short - many obstacles, little chances of success, win-win of CUSA

* * *

Without this:
Natami is closer then ever
MOS 3.x supports more Macs
AmigaOS 4 gets low end and high end hardware next year

Where would be place for new products?

Would it have any effect beside "healing relations wits CUSA"
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: rdolores on December 20, 2011, 06:35:25 PM
My vote is for a NATAMI based new Amiga running AOS3 or AROS-68k.  It should be able to use all the latest technologies, USB, SATA, DDR3 RAM, GIG Ethernet, 802.3N Wireless.  Whatever OS is chosen should have a future map including 64-bit, multi-core, Tablet capability etc...  I know this is a tall order, but one can only dream.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vox on December 20, 2011, 06:42:11 PM
Quote from: lsmart;672083
I. I however run CommodoreOS (linux mint) on my laptop - exclusively at the moment, because the installer was buggy and deleted Windows from it, even though I selected to install in the other partition (which was the bigger one anyways and therefore preselected).


Thanks for sharing the experience.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: SysAdmin on December 20, 2011, 06:46:53 PM
Quote:

"Originally Posted by lsmart  
I. I however run CommodoreOS (linux mint) on my laptop - exclusively at the moment, because the installer was buggy and deleted Windows from it, even though I selected to install in the other partition (which was the bigger one anyways and therefore preselected)."


It gave you a free software upgrade.

:)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 20, 2011, 06:58:23 PM
Quote from: vox;672084
Making community project secured by community is nothing to lose tactics, while you will not be able to object their main product line that meanwhile goes for advertising, while this project gets NDA. If 500 preorders fails, its the community "is wrong". As CUSA is company that neither designs hardware or software, what  can we believe is that they can rebrand existing products as usual.

Short - many obstacles, little chances of success, win-win of CUSA
Quite, and that's exactly what I imagine the plan is: make the offer, counting on it not going anywhere, and then go "oh, well, you guys had your chance" any time someone complains about the rest of CUSA's behavior.

Just for the record, Leo & Barry, if that is what you're hoping for, don't bet on it. I'm willing to go along with the thought experiment here, but to the people you've spurned and insulted for the last couple years, it's not going to be enough for you to offer one product - you're going to have to change your entire direction.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: anglosaxonusa on December 20, 2011, 07:13:20 PM
Quote from: rdolores;672085
My vote is for a NATAMI based new Amiga running AOS3 or AROS-68k.  It should be able to use all the latest technologies, USB, SATA, DDR3 RAM, GIG Ethernet, 802.3N Wireless.  Whatever OS is chosen should have a future map including 64-bit, multi-core, Tablet capability etc...  I know this is a tall order, but one can only dream.

Once fast(er) 68k hardware is available the community really needs to focus on developing a decent standards-complaint web browser for AOS3 and/or AROS-68k.  I'd say that would take precedence over 64-bit processors or even some of the more commonplace performance hardware in circulation.  Whether that can be taken care of by programmers in the community or through bounties will need to be determined.  Netsurf looks promising.

Once a user can surf the web and play streaming media from the workbench there will be more incentive for a user to use a "Numiga" in the first place.  

If we're looking for a maxim here, it's this:  "Create 68k Amiga hardware that enables one to use the Amiga as their main *personal* computer today"

Most of the people posting on here are Amiga diehards.  They run Amigas partly for the pleasure of saying they still do so.  Projects like Natami will allow the Amiga diehard to die-harder.  It's like putting another water-tight bulkhead in the Titanic.  

Natami will buy the Amiga time, especially with the web transitioning to the resource-hungry HTML5.  If Commodore USA wants a part of the market they should produce decent cases for Natami.  This will require them to get involved in the Natami project and get input from the fanbase ...something they have not had a sterling track record of.  If Commodore USA can produce a quality case for Natami, people will buy them.  It really is as simple as that.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: TheDaddy on December 20, 2011, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: Transition;672088
Quote:

"Originally Posted by lsmart  
I. I however run CommodoreOS (linux mint) on my laptop - exclusively at the moment, because the installer was buggy and deleted Windows from it, even though I selected to install in the other partition (which was the bigger one anyways and therefore preselected)."


It gave you a free software upgrade.

:)


That is the best quote of the day! :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: tone007 on December 20, 2011, 07:54:57 PM
Quote from: spihunter;672043
Does final challenge mean that you guys will finally go away if nothing is worked out?.


Nah, it means "final shot at doing something worthwhile, since our other ideas failed miserably."

I hear death-knell!

edit: wait, I guess that's kind of the same as what you said, spihunter.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 20, 2011, 08:15:11 PM
Quote from: tone007;672094
Nah, it means "final shot at doing something worthwhile, since our other ideas failed miserably."

I hear death-knell!
That's my theory :D
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: eb15 on December 20, 2011, 08:33:52 PM
Pre-pay? :roflmao: :lol:  
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :laughing:
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vox on December 20, 2011, 08:44:16 PM
Quote from: TheDaddy;672093
That is the best quote of the day! :)


Truly, a Windows killer. With Intel inside!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: tone007 on December 20, 2011, 08:47:21 PM
[youtube]9jK-NcRmVcw[/youtube]
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Thorham on December 20, 2011, 08:48:13 PM
I think these guys simply can't deliver what 'we' want. These guys are completely out there: Multi K$ 'Amiga' peecees aimed at the pros? Best joke I've ever heard :lol: Overheating C64 peecees? Now that's some quality merchandise :lol: Commodore skinned linux OS? Great :lol: What is it exactly that makes that company even interesting in the first place? Peecees with Amiga stickers :lol:

And on top of that they want 'our' money before even having anything at all? Ha ha ha, what a bunch of nut cases :roflmao:

These people need to go away :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 20, 2011, 08:56:56 PM
Quote from: Thorham;672102
And on top of that they want 'our' money before even having anything at all? Ha ha ha, what a bunch of nut cases :roflmao:


That's because you are wrong.  Money goes to a third party escrow account until the units have shipped.  C=USA doesn't ship, customers get their money back.

Quote
These people need to go away :)


That's not going to happen.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: A1260 on December 20, 2011, 09:04:03 PM
Quote from: Thorham;672102
I think these guys simply can't deliver what 'we' want. These guys are completely out there: Multi K$ 'Amiga' peecees aimed at the pros? Best joke I've ever heard :lol: Overheating C64 peecees? Now that's some quality merchandise :lol: Commodore skinned linux OS? Great :lol: What is it exactly that makes that company even interesting in the first place? Peecees with Amiga stickers :lol:

And on top of that they want 'our' money before even having anything at all? Ha ha ha, what a bunch of nut cases :roflmao:

These people need to go away :)


...and dont forget this is a company that have a $30 Million ad budget!!.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vox on December 20, 2011, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: A1260;672105
...and dont forget this is a company that have a $30 Million ad budget!!.

That is just for advertising alone.

But there is a free solution!
http://www.mintppc.org/

Mint 11 PPC could be CommodoreOS Special Edition :afro:

And iy would make us feel equal
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ShapeShifter on December 20, 2011, 09:14:24 PM
I can understand the anger and frustration here, but it's based on the fact that Commodore USA haven't delivered on what the community want, correct? So, leaving aside the past for a second, I have to commend the fact CUSA at least are asking the question, and seem to be indicating that if it's something they're able to do, they will do it.  So whether it'll happen or not, I'm just going to post what I'm looking for as a 'dream system' and what I  think a lot of others are looking for, too.

@ BigBenAussie
Take something like the FPGA Replay, with full 68K + AGA chipset support in hardware (not emulation), and put this inside a stylish case, with an Amiga 4000 style keyboard (perhaps in black?).  On the SD card/hard disk, install a heavily enhanced AmigaOS 3.9 with all the trimmings (with AmigaSYS, or AmiKit etc. installed.)

For added brownie points, work with a skilled engineer like Mike Johnson, or the NatAmi team, and see if you can design a 'Super Amiga' which can meld the Classic and NG Amiga systems together.  My dream machine would have a fully 68K-compatble CPU onboard (soft core) operating at speeds far exceeding what an 040/060 could achieve.  It would have ECS/AGA chipset support in softcore too so that it's able to run Amiga software of the past at maximum velocity.

Then, get an OS4 license and work with the Hyperion team to fully support your new system; add a PowerPC CPU capable of running OS4/apps to the board (you could work with MikeJ or Jakub/Yacubed to design a PPC CPU expansion for the Replay's daughterboard.)  Then, in time, the Hyperion guys could enhance OS4, so that it would utilise the classic HW plus PPC, and all applications - whether 68K or PPC - would simply run as a native application, all within the same environment - no UAE/emulation.  The user wouldn't know the difference.  

Quite simply, everything would run, and would run as fast as it's possible to run - either 68K/ECS/AGA or PPC/RTG -  from the oldest Amiga program to the latest PowerPC release, all from the same OS environment, with no emulation.  That would be my goal; could you work with the players to make all that happen..? THAT would excite a lot of people, I'm sure!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 20, 2011, 09:25:14 PM
Quote from: ShapeShifter;672107
I can understand the anger and frustration here, but it's based on the fact that Commodore USA haven't delivered on what the community want, correct?
Well, it's as much that they've been openly snide and hostile towards anybody who doesn't agree with their direction - Leo has sneered about how "this is the new future of Commodore, and you just need to get over it," and Barry has...well, you can take your pick of things Barry's said. Even people who come in with honest questions and no axe to grind have gotten this treatment.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: djrikki on December 20, 2011, 09:39:01 PM
I'll repost this from Amigaworld.  As clearly here on A.org everyone is talking about hardware opportunities in much the same manner as on AW.

@BigBenAussie

Genuine suggestion amongst the rabble:

No-one has suggested this yet, everyone is purely talking about what hardware they could bring to the table.

What if Commodore USA decided to bring new software to the two major Amiga platforms?

Without scouring the internet for solid examples, it is legal in some instances to charge for Open Source software. So IF this included OpenOffice as a wild example - I think every AmigaOS and MorphOS would buy it in a heartbeat.

Is that an area you could explore?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: motrucker on December 20, 2011, 09:51:18 PM
Here is the first remotely positive reply I have ever offered to CUSA.
In theory, I really like the idea. I will be on the poll. This could actually work out to be a great idea. I guess we'll see....
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ShapeShifter on December 20, 2011, 11:22:44 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;672108
Well, it's as much that they've been openly snide and hostile towards anybody who doesn't agree with their direction - Leo has sneered about how "this is the new future of Commodore, and you just need to get over it," and Barry has...well, you can take your pick of things Barry's said. Even people who come in with honest questions and no axe to grind have gotten this treatment.
Ah, yeah.  I can see how that would rather 'rub people the wrong way'.  

My suggestion remains however.  The Amiga world still needs somebody to put out a modern machine with modern features which nonetheless brings it's history along with it in a seamless fashion.  A machine capable of outperforming any classic model Amiga whilst running classic apps, and yet also capable of running the latest and greatest software via modern CPUs.

I'd like to see a Workbench/OS4 which seamlessly executes classic software alongside NG software without the need for any JIT or UAE emulation.  Double-click an icon, and whether it's a 68K or PPC app, it opens and runs the same - the user can't tell the difference.  The only difference which should be noticeable from e.g. running the same app on an A4000 is that it's running in OS4, and that it's running a lot faster than the fastest 68K classic Amiga. :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: actung_bab on December 20, 2011, 11:30:16 PM
Quote from: BigBenAussie;672006
Don't worry about the Hyperion agreement so much.
If it is relevant to the product, then there will be negotiations with the relevant parties to determine the cost to the project.
If it is too much, then the community could opt for the second most desirable product, until they settle on something in the realm of the possible.
Assume anything is possible....and we will go see if it is....and get back to you.
Am very intrested not to worried about politics or the past
If its at price i can afford and its either got hardware emulation with old amiga chips
or complete new system with good amont of cpu power running amiga os has  to be either
Os 3.1 or amiga os 4.1 licenced from hyperion
then yes i pre order one with money held in safe netural place
Why not work with nat ami people fund them finiish there project or buy the project
save alot devolpment time as people dont want be waiting years
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Thorham on December 21, 2011, 12:21:34 AM
Quote from: A1260;672105
...and dont forget this is a company that have a $30 Million ad budget!!.
If that's true, then what the hell are they doing? Think of what SANE people could do with that money :(
Quote from: actung_bab;672123
Why not work with nat ami people fund them finiish there project or buy the project
save alot devolpment time as people dont want be waiting years
But why would the Natami people want to deal with loonies? These guys first have to solve some other issues, because they ain't flying on all thrusters.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: persia on December 21, 2011, 12:28:44 AM
Let's dare to dream, the worst that can happen is C=USA disappoints us.  If we ask and they don't deliver that's their fault, if we don't ask, then it's our fault.  Natami is almost finished.  What if they could produce Natami in a case for a decent price?  What about a MOS/AOS 4 compatible PPC machine at something closer to Intel price performance ratios?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 21, 2011, 12:29:47 AM
Natami folks would be shooting themselves in the foot getting involved with C-USA, in my opinion.  They don't need them, and C-USA would just be trying to leech onto some credibility.  

They have got this far by getting their hands dirty soldering and testing, and made a good name for themselves and have products upcoming people are really looking forward to.  Same goes for Mike and crew.

C-USA being involved would be a black mark on an otherwise good record for those guys, lol.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ferrellsl on December 21, 2011, 12:47:39 AM
Quote from: Duce;672131
Natami folks would be shooting themselves in the foot getting involved with C-USA, in my opinion.  They don't need them, and C-USA would just be trying to leech onto some credibility.  

They have got this far by getting their hands dirty soldering and testing, and made a good name for themselves and have products upcoming people are really looking forward to.  Same goes for Mike and crew.

C-USA being involved would be a black mark on an otherwise good record for those guys, lol.


I could actually argue that things are the opposite.  CUSA has created and delivered several products.  The Natami team has been at it since around 2005 and they still haven't delivered anything to market.  So as far as credibility goes, I say that CUSA has it and Natami doesn't at this point.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Thorham on December 21, 2011, 01:06:02 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;672134
I could actually argue that things are the opposite.  CUSA has created and delivered several products.  The Natami team has been at it since around 2005 and they still haven't delivered anything to market.  So as far as credibility goes, I say that CUSA has it and Natami doesn't at this point.
But the Natami people are actually trying to make a new product from scratch, without any kind of serious money behind it (as far as I know). That's a lot more difficult then goofing around whith money in your pocket. After all, what kind of interesting products has CUSA delivered that actually have anything to do with Amiga at all?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: gazgod on December 21, 2011, 01:09:11 AM
@CUSA

Don't make the mistake of going down the custom hardware route, its been done and its a just a hole to throw money in.

Choose off the shelf hardware whether that be X86 or Arm, and deliver a custom Amiga OS that fully supports modern hardware, whether this means buying into OS4 or Morphos  or chucking money at Aros and expanding them, or developing a new OS.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 21, 2011, 01:14:16 AM
OS dev costs are probably more than hardware dev costs when it comes to bespoke items.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: gazgod on December 21, 2011, 01:25:25 AM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672138
OS dev costs are probably more than hardware dev costs when it comes to bespoke items.


Indeed, but once the development is done then its done otherwise you end up having to develop new custom hardware to move the OS along ala OS4 which is far from an ideal solution.

And a new OS does not have to be developed from scratch in fact I would say that is also pointless way to go, but rather to base the OS on existing technology ie the Linux kernel. I'm not suggesting that it should be just another Linux distro but to use the kernel would make a great starting point.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ferrellsl on December 21, 2011, 01:31:57 AM
Quote from: Thorham;672136
But the Natami people are actually trying to make a new product from scratch, without any kind of serious money behind it (as far as I know). That's a lot more difficult then goofing around whith money in your pocket. After all, what kind of interesting products has CUSA delivered that actually have anything to do with Amiga at all?


No, the Natami team isn't making a new product from scratch.  They're taking existing classic Amiga technology and extending it thru the use of FPGA technology.  And they've been at it for nearly 7 years without anything to show a prospective buyer. As for what CUSA may deliver, that's the entire point of their survey.  Tell them what you want and see if they will deliver.  When it comes to delivering, at least they have a track record.  Obviously quite a few people have purchased their systems whether you like them or not. Natami hasn't delivered a thing yet.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 21, 2011, 02:04:30 AM
Quote from: gazgod;672140
And a new OS does not have to be developed from scratch in fact I would say that is also pointless way to go, but rather to base the OS on existing technology ie the Linux kernel. I'm not suggesting that it should be just another Linux distro but to use the kernel would make a great starting point.
Why would you start with the Linux kernel if you don't want Linux? It's not like it's made of unicorn concentrate or something.

Quote from: ferrellsl;672142
No, the Natami team isn't making a new product  from scratch.  They're taking existing classic Amiga technology and  extending it thru the use of FPGA technology.  And they've been at it  for nearly 7 years without anything to show a prospective buyer. As for  what CUSA may deliver, that's the entire point of their survey.  Tell  them what you want and see if they will deliver.  When it comes to  delivering, at least they have a track record.  Obviously quite a few  people have purchased their systems whether you like them or not. Natami  hasn't delivered a thing yet.
They have a track record of delivering 1. sticker brandings of  pre-existing products, and 2. other pre-existing products in a  custom case. When it comes to anything further off the beaten path than  that, they have no track record at all. Natami, on the other hand, has  not shipped a commercial product, but they have developed and  demonstrated real tech in a mostly-working state, which for the purposes  of a project like this is much, much more than CUSA can say.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ferrellsl on December 21, 2011, 02:12:32 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;672143
Why would you start with the Linux kernel if you don't want Linux? It's not like it's made of unicorn concentrate or something.


They have a track record of delivering 1. sticker brandings of  pre-existing products, and 2. other pre-existing products in a  custom case. When it comes to anything further off the beaten path than  that, they have no track record at all. Natami, on the other hand, has  not shipped a commercial product, but they have developed and  demonstrated real tech in a mostly-working state, which for the purposes  of a project like this is much, much more than CUSA can say.

I disagree.  The products that CUSA has delivered are real and it didn't take them 7 years.  The Natami team hasn't delivered a single product and they won't even provide a release date for anything they are developing.  Unfortunately you don't see CUSA's survey as an opportunity to develop something Amiga users might want.  All you want to do is complain.  You don't like CUSA.  We get it.  So why do you have to keep harping about it?  No one is forcing you to buy their products or participate in their survey but you seem to be obsessed with bashing them.  We just got rid of that troll Fanko and now you're doing a wonderful job of filling the vacuum he left behind.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 21, 2011, 02:33:23 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;672144
I disagree.  The products that CUSA has delivered are real and it didn't take them 7 years.  The Natami team hasn't delivered a single product and they won't even provide a release date for anything they are developing.
They are real, yes, in the sense that they are physical objects you can purchase with legal tender that do, more or less, work as advertised. What they aren't is anything much in the "not a PC clone" department. Natami has taken a long time, yes, no question about that, but that's because it's a full computer system being developed by a team of hobbyists. And their rationale for not providing a release date (to wit: they want to take the time and make sure it's done right) is, to my way of thinking, perfectly reasonable.

Quote
Unfortunately you don't see CUSA's survey as an opportunity to develop something Amiga users might want.  All you want to do is complain.
That's not true at all. I was the first response in this entire thread, with a completely straightforward and complaint-free answer to BigBenAussie's question. Really, true fact! You can even go back and see for yourself!

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for this to come to anything, but that doesn't mean I'm not intrigued by it.

Quote
You don't like CUSA.  We get it.  So why do you have to keep harping about it?  No one is forcing you to buy their products or participate in their survey but you seem to be obsessed with bashing them.  We just got rid of that troll Fanko and now you're doing a wonderful job of filling the vacuum he left behind.
As I've said many times to everybody who has ever come at me with the "why do you keep restating this" line, when I am on an Internet forum and I come across a (active) thread on a subject I hold an interest in, I enter into the discussion and state my relevant opinions. This is how Internet forums work. If you do not like reading websites wherein people express views contrary to your own, you might try starting a blog and disabling comments, or simply go to the logical conclusion and start a website containing your opinions and nothing else.

Alternatively, you could try the ignore-user facility. But that would just be silly.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: desiv on December 21, 2011, 02:46:08 AM
I tend to agree with what I think (subjective, I know) was the most common suggestion so far....

Natami based.

In an Amiga 1000 case would be great too, it's my favorite design...

Preferably a bit faster than the projected Natami's tho, if you want it to be more widely used....

desiv
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Orphan264 on December 21, 2011, 04:14:43 AM
The Amiga was wonderful for hardware reasons. Even today, I STILL get a thrill from the results of the original design, and would love to see it extended further.

The only Amiga hardware I am currently waiting for is Natami. I love the concept, I wish another company/party/group had already done it years ago.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: MarkTime on December 21, 2011, 05:33:28 AM
I strongly encourage everyone to save their money and not bother even discussing anything surrounding a prepay scheme.

This is a waste of time - and potentially harmful.

I am sick of these types of people in our community and I have zero respect for this type of charade.

CUSA - go away, period.  Shame on you.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Bif on December 21, 2011, 06:05:21 AM
I'd also like to see a Natami or other advanced FPGA type Amiga that brings all the modern conveniences and a bit more more power inside an A1000 case replica, with an Amiga A5000 label on it. It would probably have to ship with classic OS, but long term I might be interested in seeing OS 4.x back ported to it, or likewise AROS 68K might make sense there too, if classic OS is a dead end to continue.

Then in another 3 or 5 years or whatever I'd like to see a refresh using newer more powerful FPGAs that sees an A6000 model brought out, and so on. Meanwhile hopefully both OS and applications have progressed a bit in that time too.

For me I don't see the point in incorporating PPC tech as it doesn't mean much to me in the history of Amiga and seems like a dead end anyway. I've come to terms that we'll probably never see the Amiga OS with proper features like memory protection, SMP, etc., that make it worthwhile running on cutting edge hardware (AROS can try for this anyway it's already on cutting edge hardware). I'd like to see the 68k architecture and the chipset extended and added to as a natural progression, while retaining compatibility with 68k Amiga software. I do realize we'll be 10 to 20 years behind the tech curve but that's OK.

I don't really care who develops or sells it as long as it gets done. If CUSA has some assets and ability to bring hardware, brand, and OS people together great, because nothing much seems to be happening otherwise. I wouldn't be one of the 500 people on a preorder though, I'd only buy this if it was already available and I felt like it that day. But of any Amiga hardware that was to come out, this is what I would buy.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Middleman on December 21, 2011, 06:19:11 AM
How about one based on the Freescale (Motorola) Qoriq T5? That is a 64-bit PowerPC chip, 28nm process, integrated AltiVec and can have multicore support (up to 24 cores) > http://www.freescale.com/files/netcomm/doc/fact_sheet/QORIQOV.pdf
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: gazgod on December 21, 2011, 06:19:57 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;672143
Why would you start with the Linux kernel if you don't want Linux? It's not like it's made of unicorn concentrate or something.

I never inferred its anything magical!!

If you reread the post you quoted I gave the Linux kernel as an example. There are quiet a few alternative OS kernels that could also be used, any of the BSD's, QNX etc. The point is not to try and reinvent the wheel but use an existing OS kernel that can deliver all the hardware support that ANY modern OS should have ie. memory protection, SMP, etc. The kernel can then be used as a basis for an amiga like os, just like Amithlon runs 3.1 on a Linux kernel.

This is the only way move even think about developing an Amiga for the 21 century, OS4, Morphos and Aros will never (without serious investment) appeal to anyone who never owned a classic machine. And Natami whilst a cool piece of hardware is just a classic and should not be considered as a way forward, just a possible replacement for dead machines.

In all honesty after reading the posts in this thread the best thing CUSA should do is play the Bruce Banner walking away music, go their own way and leave the Amiga community to dream of past glories and what could of been.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: lsmart on December 21, 2011, 07:24:38 AM
Quote from: gazgod;672166
I never inferred its anything magical!!

No, you implied it. He later inferred it. SCNR

(This post was written under the bad influence of Dr. Sheldon Cooper. Go complain at Warner Bros. Television if you don´t like it.)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Bamiga2002 on December 21, 2011, 08:08:13 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;672144
I disagree.  The products that CUSA has delivered are real and it didn't take them 7 years.  The Natami team hasn't delivered a single product and they won't even provide a release date for anything they are developing...
WRONG! Several Natami units have been shipped to developers already, read & see here (http://www.natami.net/blog/). Also it's pointless trying to compare Natami & CUSA, another one has made REAL progress over time. I let you guess which one it is :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: skurk on December 21, 2011, 08:52:14 AM
A PC with Amiga stickers and you guys are effin' bedazzled.... it's like you are *running* the downhill.

CUSA was the final nail in the coffin I needed.

This is my last post on Amiga.org, so.. bye!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: OlafS3 on December 21, 2011, 09:28:29 AM
When I read this I have to answer. That is the same as saying Aros or  Morphos or Amigaos are no new product, they are only extending 3.1.

That is simply wrong!

Natami (and other FPGA-Projects) are not using the old circuits and just  add a little, they reimplement the behavior. From the view of OS and  Applications there is no difference, but in reality it is complete new.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: OlafS3 on December 21, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
In other threads i reacted positive to the new offer of CUSA (even if there are still some doubts...) but when I hear "supporters" like you bashing on community projects I again start to doubt. If you want support by the community it would be better to be more politely. CUSA at the moment has nothing right now that justifies to stick "Amiga" on it. Have you read the reactions to the new "C64" in the web, they were devastating (and I do not speak of their own fan-website but from the public sites. So they need support and bad speaking of others (expecially when you obviously have not read much about that projects and no knowledge of hardware and concepts) will not bring much sympathie and no customers!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ShapeShifter on December 21, 2011, 09:51:29 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;672183
Natami (and other FPGA-Projects) are not using the old circuits and just  add a little, they reimplement the behavior. From the view of OS and  Applications there is no difference, but in reality it is complete new.

FPGA implementation is also a bridge to the future.  It allows us to take the older technology (68K/AGA), enhance it (faster blitter ops, better speeds, more CHIP RAM, etc), and implement this onto a motherboard with more modern technology.  This is the whole appeal to me.  We aren't dumping the past to embrace the future, or living in the past by ignoring the future.  

Take a Replay, implement a 060+ speed 68K CPU with AGA+ and RTG fully implemented in soft core.  Now add to that the latest PPC CPU.  Then speak to Hyperion and get them to add support for the Replay soft core, so that OS4 can run legacy programs as native apps under OS4.  

Bingo! You have a modern machine, with a modern CPU, capable of running legacy apps natively (no emulation) at speeds hitherto undreamt of.  Classic Amigans get the best 68K-style 'real' Amiga possible, and everyone gets the latest technology.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: OlafS3 on December 21, 2011, 09:59:29 AM
or just take Natami, there is already all in :-)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: gazgod on December 21, 2011, 12:44:17 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;672184
In other threads i reacted positive to the new offer of CUSA (even if there are still some doubts...) but when I hear "supporters" like you bashing on community projects I again start to doubt. If you want support by the community it would be better to be more politely. CUSA at the moment has nothing right now that justifies to stick "Amiga" on it. Have you read the reactions to the new "C64" in the web, they were devastating (and I do not speak of their own fan-website but from the public sites. So they need support and bad speaking of others (expecially when you obviously have not read much about that projects and no knowledge of hardware and concepts) will not bring much sympathie and no customers!


Was this comment aim at me? If so:-

I'm no CUSA supporter, I think their products and OS are laughable but if this offer is genuine then I'm offering my opinion of the only way forward that may offer a product that may placate the community whilst also offering a solution that could attract customers outside the current Amiga community.

I was not knocking any of the next gen solutions (I'm a registered Morphos user, have a dedicated Aros box and have owned OS4 twice (which I do think is ****)) or the Natami (hell I'll probably buy a Natami if they ever go on sale) but they are all limited by 80's API's and are not going to replace my Windows or Linux boxen EVER and all Migas are relegated to hobby computers in my shack.

I want to go back to the days that the amiga was the only machine I needed but without decent apps and/or the ability to easily port applications to it this will never happen.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: OlafS3 on December 21, 2011, 01:11:25 PM
then i must excuse me...

to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.
Title: off topic fun
Post by: weirdami on December 21, 2011, 01:15:07 PM
Quote from: ShapeShifter;672185
FPGA implementation is also a bridge to the future.  It allows ...


Speaking of bridges to the future (http://adequate.com/bttf/). :-)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Khephren on December 21, 2011, 01:27:32 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;672203
then i must excuse me...

to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.


I agree. The best we can hope for are some old users returning to the fold, and those interested in minority hardware/OS's picking one up. Wishful thinking would be some unification of the market, which is small, and split into even smaller camps.

I'm not sure CUSA are the company to do this. They have been actively antagonistic towards the Amiga communities in the past, and it would need a well priced item to attract the people I mentioned above. It would also need all our hardware/software guru's on board, some of whom they have pissed off.

An Amiga in a small cheap package like the 64DTV might be a better starting point.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Tripitaka on December 21, 2011, 02:38:44 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;672203
then i must excuse me...

to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.


I must agree. The only path to the mainstream I can see for Amiga would be one of the console manufacturers going for an Amiga OS, can't see that happening. I think Dreamcast 2 would be more likely, damn shame, but such is life.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 21, 2011, 04:05:49 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;672203
to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.
Oh, well said. We have to lose this idea that the only acceptable outcome is some kind of mythic return-of-the-king "retaking" of a market the Amiga never owned to begin with. Let's set our sights on something that can actually be achieved, and figure out where to go from there once that's done.

Quote from: Khephren;672205
I agree. The best we can hope for are some old users returning to the fold, and those interested in minority hardware/OS's picking one up. Wishful thinking would be some unification of the market, which is small, and split into even smaller camps.

I'm not sure CUSA are the company to do this. They have been actively antagonistic towards the Amiga communities in the past, and it would need a well priced item to attract the people I mentioned above. It would also need all our hardware/software guru's on board, some of whom they have pissed off.
I dunno, maybe they could unify the community in the sense that they've pissed off pretty much everybody equally. You know, in the same sense that the Saxons unified the Britons.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 21, 2011, 04:25:55 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;672220
Oh, well said. We have to lose this idea that the only acceptable outcome is some kind of mythic return-of-the-king "retaking" of a market the Amiga never owned to begin with. Let's set our sights on something that can actually be achieved, and figure out where to go from there once that's done.


Right, stop that! We'll have none of this sensible thinking round here. This is an Amiga forum, we have no room rational thinking, y'hear?
Now can we please get back to talking about more normal things like beating Apple and Microsoft with a 68030?

Quote

I dunno, maybe they could unify the community in the sense that they've pissed off pretty much everybody equally. You know, in the same sense that the Saxons unified the Britons.


Funny, that exact thought crossed my mind this morning too....
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Rodomoc on December 21, 2011, 05:47:51 PM
OK, a hardware development and limited manufacture proposal here, made to the entire Amiga community. Let's say the community is largely comprised of legacy 68K, OS4 PPC, MorphOS PPC, Aros (on a variety of possible hardware), 68K emulated UAE, 68K emulated Amithlon. And the FPGA 68K crowd (Minimig cores, upcoming FPGA Replay, and eventually Natami) Hopefully I have not left anyone out....
 
The community is so fragmented that I am not surprised by the variety of posts made so far, although Natami seemed to garnish more than a bit of popularity. So anyway from a hardware platform standpoint I would think that MorphOS should be immediately thrown out. Being that they have a more clearly defined and independent path moving forward. OS4 people might benefit from new hardware more than most provided it were more cost effective than current options. At 500 pieces however and the additional need to tweak the OS to run on it, this does not seem like a good fit. I do not see Aros benefitting from a 500 piece hardware release as standard x86 stuff alread exists-is cheap-and is fast.
 
That leaves maybe the 68K FPGA options but even this is not so simple. Building an AGA version of Minimig? FPGA Replay already has its own hardware so this proposal not useful there. Natami maybe but I have yet to hear of any Natami Team comments about this. Besides, they are still working at things and could always do a pre-order scenerio by themselves.
 
Or how about taking the legacy hardware replacement route? Similar to the A1000 reproduction motherboards that are out there. A board that a legacy 68k guy could dump his custom chipset out of his 25 year old leaky battery motherboard into and bolt right into his real Amiga thus keeping his quasi-original hardware alive? The designer of the A1000 board even has some nice little upgrades that could be integrated without really breaking the real Amiga hardware experience.
 
Or how about just doing some support hardware? Like a PS2 or USB keyboard in the Amiga format? This could benefit all of the community in this small way.
 
So not a real clear situation to me at this time. Speaking selfishly, I would love to have a brand spanking new A3000 motherboard to replace my creaky original. I dump the critical chips from my old board into the new one, maybe pick up some enhanced features like more ram or 040-060 cpu, blah blah, and I would be all set.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: TheBilgeRat on December 21, 2011, 08:02:04 PM
Amiga on PCIe card.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: arttu80 on December 21, 2011, 08:06:30 PM
Quote from: olafs3;672186
or just take natami, there is already all in :-)


exactly.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on December 21, 2011, 09:51:18 PM
Natami

+1
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: orb85750 on December 21, 2011, 10:52:12 PM
Why does a company with a "projected $30 million marketing budget" need anyone to prepay for their computers?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 21, 2011, 11:07:21 PM
Quote from: orb85750;672293
Why does a company with a "projected $30 million marketing budget" need anyone to prepay for their computers?

Was sort of my question as well.  Never got an answer, well - because it's all just another attention grab marketing scheme, lol.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 21, 2011, 11:10:49 PM
Quote from: orb85750;672293
Why does a company with a "projected $30 million marketing budget" need anyone to prepay for their computers?
I'm going to hazard a guess that the fee for Disney's much-vaunted "partnership" was somewhere in the neighborhood of $30 mil ;D
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 21, 2011, 11:43:20 PM
Quote from: orb85750;672293
Why does a company with a "projected $30 million marketing budget" need anyone to prepay for their computers?


Because a wise businessman doesn't invest money until he's sure he's got a pretty good ROI? If they can get 500 interested Amigan, they can be more confident of that investment...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: orb85750 on December 22, 2011, 12:46:29 AM
Quote from: EDanaII;672304
Because a wise businessman doesn't invest money until he's sure he's got a pretty good ROI? If they can get 500 interested Amigan, they can be more confident of that investment...


Wise? Maybe they shouldn't have dumped so much money into their current failures.  They could have used *that* money to create something useful and real (i.e. a real Amiga) without any of us having to put our money in escrow in order to see it come to fruition.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: amiman99 on December 22, 2011, 01:21:45 AM
Quote from: EDanaII;672304
Because a wise businessman doesn't invest money until he's sure he's got a pretty good ROI? If they can get 500 interested Amigan, they can be more confident of that investment...
Maybe there needs to be a POLL that asks if there are 500 people who are willing to participate. Lets say you vote "YES" if CUSA will do what you want, it does not matter which solution yet. We just need to find out if CUSA can get 500 people on board.
If you can only get 50-100 to agree then it does not matter what is decided.

 @rodomok said:
"I would love to have a brand spanking new A3000 motherboard to replace  my creaky original. I dump the critical chips from my old board into the  new one, maybe pick up some enhanced features like more ram or 040-060  cpu, blah blah, and I would be all set."
I would love to go this route too, we need new spare parts, maybe more compact or modern design.
I like this project for Amiga 1000: http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/gba1000/gba1000.htm

Another solution is to create faster accelerators FPGA or PPC based.

I personally want to stay Classic, maybe more modern, but classic. If I want powerful PC, I get 8 Core AMD.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: B00tDisk on December 22, 2011, 01:36:04 AM
I think there'd be a viable* market for replacement motherboards** for classic Amiga cases.

A MiniMig II with a few active PCI slots for an A2000 case, with the USB and PS2 and video ports on breakout cables that attach to brackets on the back, or one that fits nicely into an A500 case and has extension cables that reach over to the holes for the various ports along the back and side might be nice.

...

*= a few hundred units
**= for 16 bit Amigas; the MiniMig's TG68 core is fundamentally a 68000 CPU irrespective of clock speed and might leave 030/040 users (a4000/3000) wanting.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: CSixx on December 22, 2011, 02:08:30 AM
I'd like to see a $25,000 pc with an Amiga sticker on it...
How's that for a good idea you brainiacs?  diaf...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: anglosaxonusa on December 22, 2011, 02:23:34 AM
Quote from: amiman99;672316
@rodomok said:
"I would love to have a brand spanking new A3000 motherboard to replace  my creaky original. I dump the critical chips from my old board into the  new one, maybe pick up some enhanced features like more ram or 040-060  cpu, blah blah, and I would be all set."
I would love to go this route too, we need new spare parts, maybe more compact or modern design.

+1

I'd love to see replacement parts for classic Amigas.  Hell, even an *exact* copy of the A1200 wedge case back in production and adapter hardware to mount various motherboards in it (original, Natami, PPC, etc).
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 22, 2011, 03:06:17 AM
@ orb85750

Quote
Wise? Maybe they shouldn't have dumped so much money into their current failures. They could have used *that* money to create something useful and real (i.e. a real Amiga) without any of us having to put our money in escrow in order to see it come to fruition.


So, when somebody else in the Amiga community does a pre-order, it's OK, but when they do it they're dumb-asses?


@ amiman99

Quote
Maybe there needs to be a POLL that asks if there are 500 people who are willing to participate. Lets say you vote "YES" if CUSA will do what you want, it does not matter which solution yet. We just need to find out if CUSA can get 500 people on board.

If you can only get 50-100 to agree then it does not matter what is decided.


I think there will be the "ultimate" poll when the project is decided and costed. It's called a "put your money where your mouth is" poll in which Amiga users pre-pay for their system. 500 people buy in and the "poll" is satisfied.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: orb85750 on December 22, 2011, 04:25:32 AM
Quote from: EDanaII;672326
@ orb85750



So, when somebody else in the Amiga community does a pre-order, it's OK, but when they do it they're dumb-asses?


Others doing pre-orders don't have the purported unlimited capital that CUSA has.  (Of course, their financial situation is likely as fake as they are.)  But to answer your question, CUSA are dumb-asses whether or not they do pre-orders, as they have already proven, IMHO.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 22, 2011, 04:49:54 AM
Well what they are basically saying is "we don't know what you want us to make so we can sell it to you" and "we don't believe you know either and we won't make it unless we can guarantee something like $250,000 to $1,000,000 guaranteed sales of pre-orders paid for in Escrow"

:)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: haywirepc on December 22, 2011, 05:10:45 AM
Since apparently anyone can buy the rights to use the amiga name, I'm going to buy the rights to slap that name on a new computer I'll be making.

I have no idea of what kind of processor, or os it will use, or what it will look like.

(But don't worry the amiga community will LOVE IT!)

I'm not sure what kind of software it will run yet.

Of course before I invest a single penny of my own, I'm going to need 500 pre-orders.

Before I start accepting pre-orders though, first I have to take some time to insult every amiga camp, claim I have a 30million dollar advertising budget, steal my website text from apple, tell you all your not my target market then come back to you and beg for pre-orders for my new amiga dream machine.

Don't worry though, this new computer will go from pipe dream to manufactured product
in 6 months or I'll give you your money back.

"Only amiga makes it possible."
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 22, 2011, 06:11:08 AM
Glad someone else isn't blind to the whitewashing tactics with stuff like this, Haywire :)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 22, 2011, 06:47:58 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;672333
Since apparently anyone can buy the rights to use the amiga name, I'm going to buy the rights to slap that name on a new computer I'll be making.

I have no idea of what kind of processor, or os it will use, or what it will look like.

(But don't worry the amiga community will LOVE IT!)

I'm not sure what kind of software it will run yet.

Of course before I invest a single penny of my own, I'm going to need 500 pre-orders.

Before I start accepting pre-orders though, first I have to take some time to insult every amiga camp, claim I have a 30million dollar advertising budget, steal my website text from apple, tell you all your not my target market then come back to you and beg for pre-orders for my new amiga dream machine.

Don't worry though, this new computer will go from pipe dream to manufactured product
in 6 months or I'll give you your money back.

"Only amiga makes it possible."


So it's not just me then? :roflmao:
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 22, 2011, 07:23:36 AM
I would like to direct you all to the following site to post your feelings on the subject of a new Amiga :)

http://www.the-amiga.blogspot.com
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: lsmart on December 22, 2011, 07:34:21 AM
Quote from: EDanaII;672326
So, when somebody else in the Amiga community does a pre-order, it's OK, but when they do it they're dumb-asses?

Normal preorders can be cancelled anytime and aren´t taken until there is an actual product. It is unusual to take the money, before production is ready to start.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 22, 2011, 07:47:37 AM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672339
I would like to direct you all to the following site to post your feelings on the subject of a new Amiga :)

www.the-amiga.blogspot.com (http://www.the-amiga.blogspot.com)
Well, I would, but as my feelings do not lie in the direction of "take a PC clone and call it an Amiga," it would seem that I am incapable of voting my opinions over there.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: tone007 on December 22, 2011, 10:55:08 AM
Oh, you don't have to vote on every question.  I just scrolled down to the last one and picked "no."
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Kalvan on December 22, 2011, 11:06:59 AM
Well, to hijack this thread, I would like to mention a computer design I have been bulling over for quite a while, on the very off chance that Commodore USA would be willing to make my dream in to reality. Sadly, post size limits on this board prevent me from going into detail on this board.
 
Mind you, back in the day, my first computer was a TI 99-4/A, followed by couple of oddball designs that didn't even make Old-Computers.Com based on the PIC microcontroller series, before finally getting a Gateway PC Clone for college.
 
Today, while I'm not particularly nostalgic about the Amiga itself, (Having never owned one in the first place), I have fallen in love with the philosophy of its design: A programmer friendly machine with components designed to work together and the opperating system tightly coupled to it. So, over the past six months, I've been working out (On paper, in case I win the lottery) a modern day successor to the likes of the Amiga, the Sharp X68000, and the various Atari computer prototypes from 1983-84 that Warner Brothers was too cowardly to pull the trigger on.
 
The latest specification of my design can be found here (http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/191170-my-dream-computer-in-the-spirit-of-atari-computers-of-old/) and here (http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5815) (well, on page 2). To be certain, if this is to be an homage to the Amiga, then the supercharded AMY can be replaced by a PAULA of simmilar width and depth.
 
Anyone else want to comment, or should the moderators and administrators place this somewhere else?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: minator on December 22, 2011, 01:44:13 PM
Quote from: Kalvan;672365
Well, to hijack this thread, I would like to mention a computer design I have been bulling over for quite a while



I used to think up things like that and send them to Commodore..

The trouble is something like that will cost hundreds of millions if not billions to develop and you'll end up with a system that'll has no software and will have it's arse kicked by a modern PC or console.  All those different technologies will mean it'll be a nightmare to program and will very rapidly become obsolete.

The irony is there are many, many chips already remarkably like it already and they are made in vast quantities - mobile phone chips.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Thorham on December 22, 2011, 01:48:48 PM
Quote from: Kalvan;672365
Sadly, post size limits on this board prevent me from going into detail on this board.
Just use multiple posts, not a problem here :)

By the way, your links don't seem to work properly.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 22, 2011, 04:18:50 PM
Quote from: lsmart;672341
Normal preorders can be cancelled anytime and aren´t taken until there is an actual product. It is unusual to take the money, before production is ready to start.


If they get an order for a million dollars and don't make a profit then that is not a wise business decision.  Five percent of a million dollars is $50,000 dollars.  That means there isn't any money to hire a sales person to further sell a line they are developing.  Their business practices don't add up for them being here for the long haul.

Even if we are wrong, a good manager always gives the community something.  They could sell cases for the Minimig and Natami.  They can smooth things over for having a rough start with the community.

Development wise, six months is not enough to develop a product because I look at other larger companies and they don't do business this way.  I say that I don't believe they can keep their promises.

I think everyone should check them out with the better business bureau.  I think you should ask for a credit report on them.  If the Amiga community loans them credit, you have to be sure they are credit worthy.  My boss doesn't place a $50,000 glass order without the supplier doing a credit check on our company and we have sales in the millions of dollars so it doesn't matter; you have to check them out.

The danger is that no one has met these guys.  I don't know who they are and neither do you.  We should start small like buying inexpensive cases for those willing to take a risk.  I'm not going to pre-order anything because the first run of anything has problems, bugs, issues, etc.  What experience do they have with Amiga hardware?  I think the answer is very little if not nill.  Where can you go to get service?  Do I have to drive several states away to get service?

I don't make a deal with everyone because I'm desperate.  My mother said, 'when in doubt, do without' and it just looks too good to be true from some company that doesn't have a track record of being here for the long haul, dedicated to the community, etc.

There are a couple of homeless people near my work who have a sign, "will work for free".  What is the difference if there is no transparency with Commodore USA?  Its not like I want to know trade secrets.  You don't know who these people are, friends.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 22, 2011, 05:26:23 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;672396
If they get an order for a million dollars and don't make a profit then that is not a wise business decision.  Five percent of a million dollars is $50,000 dollars.  That means there isn't any money to hire a sales person to further sell a line they are developing.  Their business practices don't add up for them being here for the long haul.


You are confusing the online Amiga Community with their entire market which is beyond the online Amiga Community.  

Quote
Even if we are wrong, a good manager always gives the community something.  They could sell cases for the Minimig and Natami.  They can smooth things over for having a rough start with the community.


That is an option, depends on what the online Amiga Community decides on.

Quote
Development wise, six months is not enough to develop a product because I look at other larger companies and they don't do business this way.  I say that I don't believe they can keep their promises.


Depends on the hardware that is requested and the six months is when people can honorably with drawl from the third party escrow account.

Quote
I think everyone should check them out with the better business bureau.  I think you should ask for a credit report on them.  If the Amiga community loans them credit, you have to be sure they are credit worthy.  My boss doesn't place a $50,000 glass order without the supplier doing a credit check on our company and we have sales in the millions of dollars so it doesn't matter; you have to check them out.


What credit is the Amiga Community loaning them?  All money is kept in a third party escrow account.  C=USA fails to ship, they get nothing and people get their money back.  What is so dangerious with that?

Quote
The danger is that no one has met these guys.  I don't know who they are and neither do you.


But I have met face to face with Barry couple of times at his home and at C=USA HQ.  

Quote
We should start small like buying inexpensive cases for those willing to take a risk.  I'm not going to pre-order anything because the first run of anything has problems, bugs, issues, etc.  What experience do they have with Amiga hardware?  I think the answer is very little if not nill.  Where can you go to get service?  Do I have to drive several states away to get service?


I don't think you are seeing the big picture.  Cases would only come about if the community choose a particular case and 500 put their money (product is at dead cost) in a third party escrow account until C=USA ships the product.  If it's plastic, you are probably looking around $60K USD for design and a single mold being produced.

Quote
I don't make a deal with everyone because I'm desperate.  My mother said, 'when in doubt, do without' and it just looks too good to be true from some company that doesn't have a track record of being here for the long haul, dedicated to the community, etc.

There are a couple of homeless people near my work who have a sign, "will work for free".  What is the difference if there is no transparency with Commodore USA?  Its not like I want to know trade secrets.  You don't know who these people are, friends.


You don't have to participate in this at all.  You can certainly wait and see if the community can agree on a product and get the 500 users to plunk down their cash to a third party escrow account and see if C=USA delivers.  Tens of thousands of people pre-paid for a C64X and got it a few months later.  So yes, C=USA does have a track record of delivering the product.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Kalvan on December 22, 2011, 06:25:18 PM
Quote from: Thorham;672380
Just use multiple posts, not a problem here :)
 
By the way, your links don't seem to work properly.

So, Well, I placed it in Science and Technology Here (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=672408#post672408).  So how does it look now?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ToddH on December 22, 2011, 07:05:51 PM
For me I'd love a Natami in an A1000 style case. The case would also expand the number of PCI slots from one to 3-4, allowing for greater expansion. Also, a PPC CPU card for the Natami's CPU slot for those that want to run MorphOS or AOS 4 would be nice
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Forcie on December 22, 2011, 07:36:52 PM
Quote from: ToddH;672411
For me I'd love a Natami in an A1000 style case. The case would also expand the number of PCI slots from one to 3-4, allowing for greater expansion. Also, a PPC CPU card for the Natami's CPU slot for those that want to run MorphOS or AOS 4 would be nice

The existing Natami MX already supports 3 PCI slots with a standard PCI riser.
As for PPC cards, that would be a project for 3rd party devs. The Natami Team focuses 100% on ensuring a future development path for the 68k architecture.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Belial6 on December 22, 2011, 07:48:37 PM
The initial and obvious answer is to make an Amiga Case (if the community could decide which Amiga case to make), and have it designed so that it can take two standard micro-ATX motherboards, and has a built in KVM switch.  Finally CUSA should contract with Mike to purchase a bulk of the FPGA Arcades to preinstall in the case.  They could optionally offer the unit with FPGA, x86, or both preinstalled.

This would allow all of the (mostly) Amiga purests to have a classic Amiga that runs all of the old classic software natively.  It would help the FPGA Arcade project by giving a good sized guarenteed initial order.  It would be realistically and entirely doable.  It would allow those that want to run AmigaOS via emulation to do so as well as run x86 software.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: eb15 on December 22, 2011, 08:14:29 PM
Besides the fact, that various niches within the greater amiga community have differing needs, making goals such as a pretty custom case or replacement motherboard, appeal to one group but not to another, nobody really believes Commodore USA is capable of producing the combination of hardware and software that can respect the Amiga past heritage and yet transcend it into something that would be considered desirable in today's more general consumer marketplace.  

The fact they feel the need to ask publicly and take pre-orders, shows us they haven't done their home work and data mined past discussions as they should have...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 22, 2011, 09:41:03 PM
Quote from: eb15;672419
Besides the fact, that various niches within the greater amiga community have differing needs, making goals such as a pretty custom case or replacement motherboard, appeal to one group but not to another, nobody really believes Commodore USA is capable of producing the combination of hardware and software that can respect the Amiga past heritage and yet transcend it into something that would be considered desirable in today's more general consumer marketplace.  

The fact they feel the need to ask publicly and take pre-orders, shows us they haven't done their home work and data mined past discussions as they should have...


You are not following along then.  C=USA is making a peace offering to the online Amiga Community.  If you all do not take advantage of the offer, less unpaid work for Barry to contend with.  C=USA isn't going to make a dime on this venture as it's dead cost for the pre-orders.  Why should C=USA do "homework" when it's totally up to the online Amiga Community to what they wanted to be produced?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: haywirepc on December 22, 2011, 09:48:05 PM
Dammy, your really saying they sold tens of thousands of c64x's just in pre-orders?

Come on dude, If that were even close to true....

Even at really ****ty margins, they would have made a good deal of money on that,and have the money to make whatever product they wanted to make without begging for pre-orders and expecting 500 people to pay for a product that dosn't exist.

30 million dollar advertising budget? Total bull****.

Selling hundreds of thousands of c64x's to big box retail stores? - Total bull****.

Heavily funding AROS's development? - Total bull****.

Factory in china? - Total bull****.

This latest stunt - MORE TOTAL BULL****.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: drwho on December 22, 2011, 09:48:40 PM
It sounds like what would be more useful than having CUSA make anything would just be for a bunch of Amiga users to pool some cash together, come up with some case designs and hire a company that does injection mold stuff to make some cases.

There would be a few technical issues in the final construction with keyboards and power supplies, but, overall, this would get people exactly what they want, I would think.

Maybe I am over simplifying, I don't think so though.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: golem on December 22, 2011, 09:52:17 PM
Just give me something that runs OctaMED and Bars and Pipes like a real Amiga and I would buy it.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 22, 2011, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: drwho;672435
It sounds like what would be more useful than having CUSA make anything would just be for a bunch of Amiga users to pool some cash together, come up with some case designs and hire a company that does injection mold stuff to make some cases.

There would be a few technical issues in the final construction with keyboards and power supplies, but, overall, this would get people exactly what they want, I would think.

Maybe I am over simplifying, I don't think so though.
That's what I'm wondering. I'm no expert on the subject of electronics manufacturing, but I can't imagine that a company whose sole experience with it consists of "get a custom case made and pay a third party to put standard PC boards in it" has all that much to offer in the way of industry connections that a group of ordinary Amigans pooling their resources wouldn't.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 22, 2011, 10:09:15 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;672434
Dammy, your really saying they sold tens of thousands of c64x's just in pre-orders?

Come on dude, If that were even close to true....


Whatever you think.

Quote
Even at really ****ty margins, they would have made a good deal of money on that,and have the money to make whatever product they wanted to make without begging for pre-orders and expecting 500 people to pay for a product that dosn't exist.


Begging? :rofl: Barry is offering, if the online Amiga Community can't handle it, too bad for the online Amiga Community.  500 units to spread the development and manufacturing costs is a reasonable number for most possible projects.

Quote
30 million dollar advertising budget? Total bull****.

Selling hundreds of thousands of c64x's to big box retail stores? - Total bull****.


I never said that but that some how doesn't stop the C=USA haters from repeating it over and over again.  It was a 20K and a 5K (online retail) sale that did not go through.  Had the terms been more to Barry's liking, a C64X would have been in a store near you (or via online retailer).   Still may see it in 2012, that's Barry's call.

Quote
Heavily funding AROS's development? - Total bull****.


After Ben threatened AI over it, I don't see a huge reason at this point in time for C=USA to spend money on a OS they can't use.

Quote
Factory in china? - Total bull****.


Then who's furniture facility is it in the pictures with Barry's vanities rolling off the production line?  

Quote
This latest stunt - MORE TOTAL BULL****.


Then what do you care?  Other then to continue to spew hate, of course.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 22, 2011, 10:11:50 PM
Quote from: drwho;672435
It sounds like what would be more useful than having CUSA make anything would just be for a bunch of Amiga users to pool some cash together, come up with some case designs and hire a company that does injection mold stuff to make some cases.

There would be a few technical issues in the final construction with keyboards and power supplies, but, overall, this would get people exactly what they want, I would think.

Maybe I am over simplifying, I don't think so though.


So why hasn't it been done already?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 22, 2011, 10:20:35 PM
It hasn't been done already because what people want varies massively.

10 guys might want replacement A1000 mobos, 5 others A4000 replacement motherboards, 20 guys want Natami and 20 guys want FPGA Arcade, another 20 might want more affordable OS4 solutions, so on and so forth.  Simply can't make them all, and you'll hit this problem even if C-USA (or anyone else) was a trustworthy company that people would pony up money to in advance, lol.

I wonder how things worked out for this guy:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/kvku9/commodore_usa_has_my_money_i_have_no_computer/
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: TheDaddy on December 22, 2011, 10:44:58 PM
Quote from: dammy;672445
So why hasn't it been done already?


I know what people want...shall I tell you?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 23, 2011, 12:17:14 AM
Quote from: drwho;672435
It sounds like what would be more useful than having CUSA make anything would just be for a bunch of Amiga users to pool some cash together, come up with some case designs and hire a company that does injection mold stuff to make some cases.

There would be a few technical issues in the final construction with keyboards and power supplies, but, overall, this would get people exactly what they want, I would think.

Maybe I am over simplifying, I don't think so though.


It means CUSA gives you an ultimatum to hand over Amiga technology to them so that they will be a major player and you don't get to negotiate with them in the future.  It means any future deals they will lump to you in the way they want because you levered power to come to their favor.  There is no talk or discussion about future relationships but only quest for this technology which they don't posess.

The second thing is that you don't know who they are working with.  You don't know if they are working with friends of Bill Gates or Microsoft whom they could later sell the technology to for a small price.  We don't know because there is no transparency.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 23, 2011, 12:22:09 AM
Quote from: EDanaII;672304
Because a wise businessman doesn't invest money until he's sure he's got a pretty good ROI? If they can get 500 interested Amigan, they can be more confident of that investment...


There is no reason why we can't put $100 down and pay the rest later.  The fact is that I don't even know what I'm paying.  How do you buy a computer you've never seen and how do you set the price for a computer you've never seen?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 23, 2011, 12:29:20 AM
Quote from: lsmart;672341
Normal preorders can be cancelled anytime and aren´t taken until there is an actual product. It is unusual to take the money, before production is ready to start.


I had a car salesman charge me $50 for finding me a car that he said that was there and which wasn't.  I had to go find him to get my money back.  The accountant at work called him a chisler because it is improper to accept work before it is started.

Does HP accept pre-orders?  Apple?  When is this practice normal?  Commodore did this in the early days and it was because they didn't have the money so that tells me something about whom we're dealing with.

When would CUSA be accepted to do business with Best Buy?  I can guarantee you that Best Buy wouldn't pre-order.  They would buy on credit and pay in 30 days.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 23, 2011, 12:30:37 AM
Quote from: orb85750;672293
Why does a company with a "projected $30 million marketing budget" need anyone to prepay for their computers?


Because they don't have the money?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Plaz on December 23, 2011, 12:34:57 AM
Quote from: drwho;672435
come up with some case designs and hire a company that does injection mold stuff to make some cases.

Maybe I am over simplifying, I don't think so though.


Mold making is the part that cost $$$$$. But even getting a case design done to the point it's ready to hand over to a mold maker/Injection operation takes takes certain crafts few around here would be well versed at.

I for one could put you out a nice custom case in 3D cad exported to an STL file ready to go to a mold maker. (not that I plan to), then all you need is the $20k-$100K it would take to start "printing" cases. Concept is simple, execution... not so much.

Plaz
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 23, 2011, 12:38:57 AM
Quote from: ChuckT;672462
There is no reason why we can't put $100 down and pay the rest later.  The fact is that I don't even know what I'm paying.  How do you buy a computer you've never seen and how do you set the price for a computer you've never seen?


They're not offering anything yet, Chuck. They've simply laid out a contract stating "decide what you want, we'll do the project plan, tell you how much and how long it will take... if you want it, pay the cost up front and when we're done, we'll collect your payment." This is a perfectly valid arrangement.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 23, 2011, 12:41:44 AM
Quote from: dammy;672401
You are confusing the online Amiga Community with their entire market which is beyond the online Amiga Community.  





Depends on the hardware that is requested and the six months is when people can honorably with drawl from the third party escrow account.



What credit is the Amiga Community loaning them?  All money is kept in a third party escrow account.  C=USA fails to ship, they get nothing and people get their money back.  What is so dangerious with that?


But I have met face to face with Barry couple of times at his home and at C=USA HQ.  



I am not really confusing their product line with Amiga and it encompasses the rest of their business dealings.

I worked with a guy that was putting rocks in boxes for his record label and covered the tops with LPs.  Once they ship, it doesn't matter what they put in the case.  Who is in charge of quality control?  Is the person a dedicated Amiga user or a Mac user?  Do you now see that it matters who is in charge and you don't know their preferences.


I meet with people all the time and some of them make bad decisions but it doesn't mean that I have to accept their decisions
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 23, 2011, 12:46:27 AM
Ed, it is a take it or leave it ultimatum.-Chuck
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 23, 2011, 12:53:01 AM
Look, I ain't exactly a CUSA fan either. I've even gone so far as to insult Barry over on the Commodore Amiga forum, but this quote from the first post in this thread:
Quote
7. Commodore USA is ONLY paid on completion of the work to the satisfaction of the 500+ first batch customers, when the final product is ready to ship.
8. On project commencement, Commodore USA will provide monthly project updates until completion.
9. If Commodore USA does not perform the required work in 6 months of the project commencement date, then the 500+ customers have the option to withdraw immediately for a full refund of their prepayment.

is not a take it or leave it proposition... no, wait, it is: you can take your money back if you don't like it or you can leave your money with them if you wanna keep their product.

Poor CUSA, they can do no right...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 23, 2011, 01:07:03 AM
EDana:

It's not a "perfectly valid arrangement" from a company with their background.  Not in the least, and it wasn't their place to come in here acting as the savior of the Amiga after treating the entire community like absolute **** for YEARS.  There's reports of them taking pre order payment for current systems (see the Reddit link) and the purchaser hears nothing out of them and has to consider a lawyer or reversing charges on a credit card.  I think that gives people a whole HELL of a lot to keep in mind before any talk of pre payments on some new Amiga system, doesn't it?  Or am I to assume we should just ignore the reports that have been heard, and just take them at face value, lol.  Hard for a guy to get his money back if he is unhappy if he gets no answer on the "support line" like the Reddit fellow, no?

You know what would have went a long way, C-USA?  Saying "sorry" or simply giving real answers that have been asked for a long time.  Sorry for the threats, sorry for the spam, sorry for the fact a lot of promises have gone entirely undelivered, sorry for the fact you made very offbase and prejudiced slurs about people and the community.

Completely unwilling to answer any questions, and you wonder why no one wants anything to do with you.  I'll ask my top ones, again - you come here asking question, but are unwilling to answer any yourself.  The unwillingness to answer any questions simply tells me and others you are trolling for more publicity.  Now...

1 - when and were can I see/buy your product in a large retail chain?  I don't buy ANYTHING sight unseen.  Not from Apple, not from HP, and not from you - valid question, I'd love to see one.

2 - heat issues with the C64x, still an issue or has this been fixed?  Telling the customer "to buy a laptop cooler for it"or to crack the case and install fans is not acceptable, sorry.

3 -  when will your products get into the hands on independent reviewers, such as Engadget and other well known online review sites?

4 - ever consider sending a review machine to someone in the community, like a Mod here at A.org?  Being the big wheels that you are in the PC industry, you know all professional reviews are on a "loan" basis product wise, costing nothing more than shipping.  A company with confidence in their products should have had these machines written up in every mag on the planet by now.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: orb85750 on December 23, 2011, 01:26:56 AM
At least this is their "FINAL challenge," meaning that we won't be hearing from them again in the future? (fingers crossed)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spihunter on December 23, 2011, 01:27:58 AM
Either everyone here has a really short memory or some of them weren't around far all the insults, lies, theft, and homophobia this company has spread so far..

I wouldn't care if they put out something that I really, really, wanted. I would never give a Dime to these people.

Quote from: Duce;672472
EDana:

It's not a "perfectly valid arrangement" from a company with their background.  Not in the least, and it wasn't their place to come in here acting as the savior of the Amiga after treating the entire community like absolute **** for YEARS.  There's reports of them taking pre order payment for current systems (see the Reddit link) and the purchaser hears nothing out of them and has to consider a lawyer or reversing charges on a credit card.  I think that gives people a whole HELL of a lot to keep in mind before any talk of pre payments on some new Amiga system, doesn't it?  Or am I to assume we should just ignore the reports that have been heard, and just take them at face value, lol.  Hard for a guy to get his money back if he is unhappy if he gets no answer on the "support line" like the Reddit fellow, no?

You know what would have went a long way, C-USA?  Saying "sorry" or simply giving real answers that have been asked for a long time.  Sorry for the threats, sorry for the spam, sorry for the fact a lot of promises have gone entirely undelivered, sorry for the fact you made very offbase and prejudiced slurs about people and the community.

Completely unwilling to answer any questions, and you wonder why no one wants anything to do with you.  I'll ask my top ones, again - you come here asking question, but are unwilling to answer any yourself.  The unwillingness to answer any questions simply tells me and others you are trolling for more publicity.  Now...

1 - when and were can I see/buy your product in a large retail chain?  I don't buy ANYTHING sight unseen.  Not from Apple, not from HP, and not from you - valid question, I'd love to see one.

2 - heat issues with the C64x, still an issue or has this been fixed?  Telling the customer "to buy a laptop cooler for it"or to crack the case and install fans is not acceptable, sorry.

3 -  when will your products get into the hands on independent reviewers, such as Engadget and other well known online review sites?

4 - ever consider sending a review machine to someone in the community, like a Mod here at A.org?  Being the big wheels that you are in the PC industry, you know all professional reviews are on a "loan" basis product wise, costing nothing more than shipping.  A company with confidence in their products should have had these machines written up in every mag on the planet by now.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: amigadave on December 23, 2011, 01:48:04 AM
Quote from: EDanaII;672469
Look, I ain't exactly a CUSA fan either. I've even gone so far as to insult Barry over on the Commodore Amiga forum, but this quote from the first post in this thread:

is not a take it or leave it proposition... no, wait, it is: you can take your money back if you don't like it or you can leave your money with them if you wanna keep their product.

Poor CUSA, they can do no right...

I applaud your efforts in trying to talk sense and make the most of an opportunity, but it is a waste of your time arguing with the few CUSA haters that will never accept anything that they do or say.

I am no fan of CUSA either, but if they really want to make amends with the community, I will let them (if they can).  My doubt is that they will never get 500 people to agree to anything.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spihunter on December 23, 2011, 01:57:14 AM
If your just going to ignore what these guys have done up to date here then there is really no sense in trying to argue with you either?. I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish here but so far they haven't really said much......

Many folks here have asked they they either support AROS or the Natami. Neither one is a money maker so I don't see them being interested.


Quote from: amigadave;672477
I applaud your efforts in trying to talk sense and make the most of an opportunity, but it is a waste of your time arguing with the few CUSA haters that will never accept anything that they do or say.

I am no fan of CUSA either, but if they really want to make amends with the community, I will let them (if they can).  My doubt is that they will never get 500 people to agree to anything.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 23, 2011, 03:04:15 AM
Quote from: golem;672436
Just give me something that runs OctaMED and Bars and Pipes like a real Amiga and I would buy it.


I could make that on x86 hardware tomorrow for you!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 23, 2011, 03:08:11 AM
Quote from: drwho;672435
It sounds like what would be more useful than having CUSA make anything would just be for a bunch of Amiga users to pool some cash together, come up with some case designs and hire a company that does injection mold stuff to make some cases.

There would be a few technical issues in the final construction with keyboards and power supplies, but, overall, this would get people exactly what they want, I would think.

Maybe I am over simplifying, I don't think so though.


Actually you are not simplifying anything. The PSU comes with the choice of motherboard, and in the case of X86 Micro ATX or Mini ITX there are laptop style external PSUs.

The cost is for tooling up for production, the actual cases once the moulds are finished are peanuts compared to the C-USA $400 charge for an empty C64x keyboard ;)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 23, 2011, 03:27:33 AM
Quote from: EDanaII;672469
Look, I ain't exactly a CUSA fan either. I've even gone so far as to insult Barry over on the Commodore Amiga forum, but this quote from the first post in this thread:

is not a take it or leave it proposition... no, wait, it is: you can take your money back if you don't like it or you can leave your money with them if you wanna keep their product.

Poor CUSA, they can do no right...


It is a take it or leave it proposition because the title is "Final Challenge" and there is a number associated with the "contract".  The "contract" has little room for negotiation and neither did it originate from the community.  It is kind of like saying we won't have a Commodore 64 with a 6502 chip and we won't have a Commodore 128 with CPM or we won't have a Plus 4 with original chips because they aren't intersted in that.  They imagine this as a marriage with no foreplay; they only want sex to consumate the marriage.  And it is kind of like IBM, Atari, Mac and others were involved in this computer war.  Amiga users wouldn't visit an IBM board to talk about Amiga or download Amiga games because there was this pride that we're Amiga and an IBM board couldn't deliver Amiga graphics.  Then CUSA insults the users by putting IBM hardware in a C-64 like case and I felt insulted.  And instead of being a good manager by giving the community something even though they don't see it our way, they issue a demand in the form of a contract.  Forget the users who want a C-64 with an original SID chip.  Forget the users who want a Commodore 128 and original chips; you're now told what the contract is going to be.  How is that for smoothing relations over for us?  The contract is a hard sell and I don't know these people and based on the contract, I can't see them caring about the Amiga technology and I don't see any R&D or development because ......... it is just a mindless transaction because there is no future development and there is no profit planned on getting a salesman or development for a C-65.  If we look at it as an economic problem, we can graph all the money going to CUSA and none for Natami and none for Minimig development or SAM user development.  So you have to choose whether you want development by people who care or by people who haven't shown they care up to this point by courting us or giving us some transparency.

My co-worker sells jewelry so I asked her how she sells it because I wanted to get involved in sales.  She says she does nothing because jewelry sells itself.  Compare that to CUSA's offer that we have to come up with a number or it won't happen.  That infers their creativity alone can't sell it.  We have to come up with what we want because they're not going to be creative too much beyond what we want which means they're done promoting it in the design phase.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 04:19:43 AM
Quote from: TheDaddy;672451
I know what people want...shall I tell you?


I have a good guess what people want, it's a question if 500 will commit to it with money is the question.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 04:21:05 AM
Quote from: ChuckT;672462
There is no reason why we can't put $100 down and pay the rest later.  The fact is that I don't even know what I'm paying.  How do you buy a computer you've never seen and how do you set the price for a computer you've never seen?


What computer is that?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: drwho on December 23, 2011, 04:29:04 AM
Quote from: dammy;672445
So why hasn't it been done already?


Well, in some ways, it sort of has, right?

Wasn't the minimig just some dude designing an FPGA that could play all of his favorite games?

What about Natami? Looks like just a bunch of guys that had an idea and decided they would make that happen.

MorphOS, another ragtag team of people putting something together because they wanted to.

So, to answer your question, it hasn't been done already because I just said it in my previous post, I don't want to take credit for thinking it up, but, I read the entire thread and no one mentioned it. :-)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 04:41:16 AM
Quote from: ChuckT;672463

Does HP accept pre-orders?  Apple?  When is this practice normal?  Commodore did this in the early days and it was because they didn't have the money so that tells me something about whom we're dealing with.

Microsoft did this with Kinect.

Quote
When would CUSA be accepted to do business with Best Buy?  I can guarantee you that Best Buy wouldn't pre-order.  They would buy on credit and pay in 30 days.

You are acting like profit is the main motive for C=USA to offer this, which isn't true.  You are also acting like there is a significant market left for new products in the online Amiga Community which is simply not true. It's a microscopic market that makes any new product aimed solely at that market doomed to loose money.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 04:55:07 AM
Quote from: spihunter;672478
If your just going to ignore what these guys have done up to date here then there is really no sense in trying to argue with you either?. I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish here but so far they haven't really said much......

Many folks here have asked they they either support AROS or the Natami. Neither one is a money maker so I don't see them being interested.


C=USA's offer is get 500 people together with money in a third person escrow account, and come up with a specific product you all are willing to pay for.   Why should they bother go poking around hoping to find something that will make most people happy?  Far easier for 500 people to tell C=USA what one item will make them happy.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 05:06:57 AM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672487
The cost is for tooling up for production, the actual cases once the moulds are finished are peanuts compared to the C-USA $400 charge for an empty C64x keyboard ;)


Then why don't you gather a few peanuts up and go make a case with a custom keyboard?  I don't understand you all, you make it sound so easy, then why haven't you done it years ago and make a huge profit from it?  If it's that trivial and all.

I'll even answer for you, it's not trivial and it's damn expensive.  That is the reason, and we all know it.  

What is the reason why so many haters are trying to piss all over this proposal?  I find this most amusing actually, that the haters are so filled with rage they rather see nothing new for the community then to make Barry work for free.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 23, 2011, 05:12:04 AM
Dammy, C-USA is not Microsoft.  The idea you'd even remotely compare the two is appalling, regardless of your blind dedication to "the cause".  The Kinect (and your facts are misleading about what you stated about the pre-order factor involving MS directly in a funds down deposit with MS directly) is a completely invalid comparison, and C-USA is not Microsoft.  

MS has a worth of 44 billion dollars roughly, Dammy.  MS doesn't have a pack of insulting, roving fanboys working for free as their ad department.
MS had a revenue of 16 billion dollars, Q4 2011.  

They needed no pre-orders to develop the Kinect on a financial basis, and have never issued cockeyed "challenges" to the community in the guise of "helping".  There's a lot to bitch about when it comes to Microsoft, but the comparison of them and the Kinect and C-USA and this purported project
is insane.  Kinect took pre-orders for Kinect in the same way I can pre-order a video game from a vendor - a guarantee I will be able to obtain one when they become public and nothing more.  I pre-ordered Skyrim, Dammy, via a Best Buy.  Does that somehow imply that Bethesda Software, makers of said game - needed my pre-order to find game development?  If they did, joke is on them, cause all I did was give my name and the retailer saved me a copy for pick-up with no cash down.  Some stores did indeed ask for a deposit on Kinect, but to my knowledge MS themselves never asked for one thin dime to "reserve" one or otherwise fund anything.  I had plenty of friends "pre-order" a Kinect via retailers, which required a deposit in some cases, but never a pre-payment to MS and money going into escrow, lol.  A ridiculous comparison of situations, even for a fanboy, Dammy.

Microsoft has never come onto obscure hobby computer fan sites like A.org wanting to save the day, while simultaneously and blatantly insulting the community wholly at the same time.  I've never got death threats from Microsoft if I stated I disagreed with their business practices.  Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer has never hounded independent journalists, publically calling them homosexuals and asking about their sex lives if said writers gave them bad press.

Your C-USA/MS comparison isn't even as unplausible as an "apples vs. oranges" aspect.  It's like comparing Mars to Earth, entirely irrational and insane, lol.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 05:17:24 AM
Quote from: ChuckT;672494
My co-worker sells jewelry so I asked her how she sells it because I wanted to get involved in sales.  She says she does nothing because jewelry sells itself.  Compare that to CUSA's offer that we have to come up with a number or it won't happen.  That infers their creativity alone can't sell it.  We have to come up with what we want because they're not going to be creative too much beyond what we want which means they're done promoting it in the design phase.


Is your co-worker willing to sell her supply at her dead cost?  That is what Barry is offering to do, is she?  Then restrict her to maybe a possible of  sub 500 customers.  Does that sound like a viable business environment to you?  That is exactly what Barry is dealing with.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 23, 2011, 05:29:21 AM
If nothing else, I have to give CUSA credit for staging a pretty fair reenactment of the Judgement of Paris. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Paris_(mythology))
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 05:35:36 AM
Quote from: Duce;672509
Dammy, C-USA is not Microsoft.  The idea you'd even remotely compare the two is appalling, regardless of your blind dedication to "the cause".  The Kinect (and your facts are misleading about what you stated about the pre-order factor involving MS directly in a funds down deposit with MS directly) is a completely invalid comparison, and C-USA is not Microsoft.  


Microsoft didn't offer it as dead cost either and I doubt a third party was used for escrow either.  

If you don't want to participate with C=USA, don't and stop posting about it.  That's rather easy now, isn't it?  It would have probably kept this thread down to a few pages instead of the 11+ pages filled with haters foaming at the mouth over a really good offer from C=USA.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: haywirepc on December 23, 2011, 05:43:25 AM
Give us a bunch of money and a list of things you like...  Within 6 months we'll go from pipe dream to working manufactured computers.

That sounds like a good deal to you? Your on dope, you really must have drank the cool aid when you visited their "corporate office" which amounts to my garage with a storefront attached.

Steven
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 23, 2011, 06:03:01 AM
You were making comparisons that MS is reliant or otherwise soliciting or taking pre-orders and the associated funds to get products out the door or to otherwise make things "worth their while", Dammy.  That's false, and the "Challenge to the Community" from C-USA and a Best Buy taking pre-order funds to hold a Kinect when it arrives in store vs. a company with an abhorrent track record soliciting funds are two entirely different worlds.  With C-USA's track record, man - you just aren't going to have too many people believe they suddenly changed ways and now solely exist to make low volume gear at no profit.  You'd have better luck selling a glass of water to a drowning man, and all the statements of noble intentions for the community interest will not whitewash the PR nightmare of the past year or two.  But hey, that's why rugs were invented - so stuff can be swept under them, I suppose.  Guess when this doesn't pan out, the "Amiga scene is broken" and we'll once again not be your "target market".

PS:  No one from C-USA is answering the very basic questions that were asked of them.  Consider my mouth sewn shut the day I can read a review on any reputable website of their offerings, until then it's just more smoke and mirrors.  Send one to Engadget, simple enough.  Hell, bill me for the shipping costs on the 2 way shipping on the review unit.

A very simple request of people that otherwise swear their products are the best thing since sliced bread.  BTW, how are you enjoying your new C-USA VIC or 64, Dammy?  I would assume such an ardent devotee would have given his review if he owned one.  You do own one of these new Commodore machines, don't you?  Answer the question please.

And FWIW, I felt the same with the X1000 down payment/ beta tester scheme.

Last time I asked polite questions I was told "Hey guy, we don't owe you any such thing, don't buy our products, ****head" and banned from your forums, like many others were.  If you're going to spam product here, either answer some basic questions or have the decency of paying for ad space where you can preach the gospel to the choir without having us pesky "trolls" ruin your little grab bag of free advertising.  I got no issue seeing C-USA banner ads here, none - at least the ad revenue would help keep bills paid for A.org.

Said it before and will say it again, people using community forums as advertising dropsites and said community forums soliciting donations simply don't work side by side.  I love A.org, but why should I donate a thin dime when "the saviors" just use it for free press?  I'm not the only one in that boat.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 23, 2011, 01:20:45 PM
It's quite obvious people don't want to put down an advance order pre-payment from the poll results, and who can blame them?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: persia on December 23, 2011, 02:18:55 PM
At last, someone with clear vision...

Quote from: commodorejohn;672513
If nothing else, I have to give CUSA credit for staging a pretty fair reenactment of the Judgement of Paris. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Paris_(mythology))
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 03:33:29 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;672515
Give us a bunch of money and a list of things you like...  Within 6 months we'll go from pipe dream to working manufactured computers.


Again, the money goes to a third party escrow account, not to C=USA.  Nor did C=USA say what the item would be, they left that up to the online Amiga Community.

Quote
That sounds like a good deal to you? Your on dope, you really must have drank the cool aid when you visited their "corporate office" which amounts to my garage with a storefront attached.

Steven


Lets see here, they are offering at dead cost to build something the community wants.  That's mighty evil of them huh?  Amazing, you are telling me what I saw when you have never been there.  Who would have thought?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 23, 2011, 03:34:36 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672558
It's quite obvious people don't want to put down an advance order pre-payment from the poll results, and who can blame them?


Less work for Barry, who can complain about that?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: mongo on December 23, 2011, 03:55:53 PM
Quote from: dammy;672579
Lets see here, they are offering at dead cost to build something the community wants.  That's mighty evil of them huh?  Amazing, you are telling me what I saw when you have never been there.  Who would have thought?


This is the same company that sells a $180 Seawor KPC210 for $499 and claim they sell it at a loss. They seem to have an interesting idea about what "cost" means.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 23, 2011, 03:59:03 PM
@ AmigaDave
Quote
I applaud your efforts in trying to talk sense and make the most of an opportunity, but it is a waste of your time arguing with the few CUSA haters that will never accept anything that they do or say.


You are, sadly, correct, Dave. But one has to try. Well, occasionaly, I have to try. =)

Quote
I am no fan of CUSA either, but if they really want to make amends with the community, I will let them (if they can). My doubt is that they will never get 500 people to agree to anything.


And, sadly, I gotta (mostly) agree with you here too. Where I don't agree is that if they were to take leadership of this community, they could get 500 Amigans to agree. Leaving it up to a group which is fairly evenly divided on which way to go is a potential recipe for disaster. Just look at the CPU Poll. It has PPC and x86 nearly evenly divided, with PPC having a 5 point edge over x86.

The problem is, the PPC solution will likely be as expensive as any presented so far and I doubt that they'll get their 500 customer buy-in as a result. Whereas, the x86 solution is likely more affordable and stands a better chance of their 500+ buyer stipulation.

Here's how I expect them to play it, however: they'll do their project planning, come back and say, OK, the PPC solution will take this long and cost this much. How many o' you wanna buy into this? And, I expect, there will be much wheeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth on the price. I also expect that they'll say "the time to put together a new Mobo/PPC combo is longer than the six months we stipulated for this project."

But here's where leadership could come into play. I'm in the x86 camp, but I've also suggested "that if it must be PPC, then XBox, Wii or PS3" and that would be one alternative to bringing the price and time down.

So, I see this polling business as a communication tool. "You want this, it will take this long and cost this much." "OK, how about this, instead?" "OK, here's a third option." "Look, if you don't like the options we got, we can't help you."

Of course, like you, I don't really see Amigan's coming together this way; there will always division in this group, so I would have taken a different strategy than CUSA.

It would have been something like this:
* Fund AROS bounties to move AROS to a professional level.
* Fund AROS bounties to make it ready for a particular set of x86 hardware.
* Created properly branded case and sold it with that hardware and without AROS.
* Informed the Community, "here it is if ya want it, sorry if you don't. You're free to install AROS on it or whatever you prefer."

I'll bet you good money many of the Wheepers, Wailers and Gnashers would buy it anyway... :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 23, 2011, 04:25:50 PM
You didn't tell me how you were enjoying your C-USA products, Dammy....

Come on, the suspense is killing me, give us a review.  Which Best Buy did you get yours at, so I can make sure to go to that one and see one in person.

:roflmao:
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Rodomoc on December 23, 2011, 04:32:55 PM
Alright, again from a community standpoint some camps within it are already independently engaged thus I do not see this offer providing a benefit to those groups. Each of them has its own hardware support scheme and also in the software arena. Let's face it, Amiga-land is most likely permanently fragmented from its original roots / user base. Other than some general software code sharing or porting, these camps will never officially merge back into a single entity. Sorry but that's the way it is...

But from a common factor, the community does share a similar background; 68K hardware manufactured by Commodore and its accompanying operating system. So perhaps a common factor hardware 'something or another' could be accomplished that can go to a multiplatform OS base (AROS-OS4-MorphOS). This is already somewhat accomplished with UAE based software. Everyone incorporates it to some degree or another. This is the approach I suggest only in a hardware format.

So what about a really nice FPGA PCI type card that is stuffable into the various Amiga camp hardware architectures? A fast FPGA that could implement the 68K CPU/FPU's, custom chipset things or other desired features from the Commodore original design. Throw in everything the existing Catweasel does while one is at it. So the idea is - that each individual OS handles its own base functions like mass storage devices-ethernet-usb-whatever, and the expansion card provides an old world hardware experience. I say all of this because in looking at something like Amithlon, it demonstrates that various core hardware functions can be handled by modern hardware without the AmigaOS really breaking. Obviously Amithlon is only a partial solution regarding some features. Therefore take this same approach in an expansion card, and fill in whatever must have Commodore missing blanks you feel the need to have. Stuff it into your next gen AmigaOS hardware of choice and call it a day. The entire community wins and not just one camp. If I am not mistaken, such a similar card was developed already a long time ago. So what is the harm in taking a fresh look at something like this?

Being that FPGA is involved, a large degree of customization should be possible. Let's say Natami releases a killer new CPU core - cool, throw it in. Or the latest and greatest AGA core, etc... None of this work would be wasted or delegated to a single camp. In a small way, some unity could be built with this approach. Maybe there are a few models of this card eventually. A slower PCI based, up to super wicked PCIe-16 model that might have a much more powerul FPGA. While a card like this is built, provide any useful signalling to expansion pins. Any number of card specifications could be invented here.

So each new Amiga camp gets a piece, 68K and original Commodore stuff is retained and at an improved hardware level.

You build something like that, and I'll buy it, it is that simple.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: eb15 on December 23, 2011, 05:00:46 PM
What you're calling an olive branch, I'll call out as simple posturing...
Calling it the "Final Challenge" reminds one of other "final" messages which have no import.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: odin on December 23, 2011, 05:15:05 PM
Holy mackerel, Batman. Pre-orders constructions in Amigaland? Is there even one example since the demise of Commodore where it actually delivered? And it'll work this time around, because...?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: anglosaxonusa on December 23, 2011, 05:39:40 PM
Natami seems to be what most here are waiting for, however, there is still room for a company to create cases to house future Amiga hardware.

Here are some things to consider:







In general, market the Amiga scene in its entirety, not just your company.  Get involved in the community.  Realize that Amigans are looking for hardware, software, *and enclosures* that are in harmony with Amiga's history.  If you have something to offer to the community, offer it.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: slaapliedje on December 23, 2011, 06:40:56 PM
I'd have to agree with the others that suggested working with the Natami developers to make cases and funding for helping the project along.  To me the Natami is the only project out there that tries to follow in the path of the Amiga.

Either that, or dump a ton of funding into AROS for the 68k port, along with the PPC and x86.  At least that way we have a standard OS that is Amiga compatible, Open Source and runs on any of the platforms.  Hell, there could be a port for 68k Atari and Macs as well.  Sadly you can buy 68k Macs for nothing, yet at the same time the Atari and Amigas are rare and expensive.

Making a 68k platform with a faster AGA compatible chipset, like the Natami, is the real future of the Amiga, in my opinion.  Simply because AOS4 and MorphOS simply emulate the old platform.  Then I can't really judge those, since I can't use them on any available hardware.

Which comes to the other suggestion of PPC accelerators for classics, at a price that doesn't feel like I'm being raped from the wallet.

slaapliedje
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 23, 2011, 06:50:22 PM
Unless Natami can delivery 100mhz 060 performance Amiga for £199 I am not interested.

And unless Minimig can undercut an Mini ITX £60 solution again I am not interested.

Amithlon will never come back to life, thanks to the copyright vultures gnawing at the carcass of the Amiga (including ineffectual Hyperion in this group).

So You can see how the community is fragmented forever now? Some people will buy my creations, many won't. And to them I say all the best with whatever choices you go for.

Amiga is dead, it will never return in its true form because the company and engineers who made the magic are long gone (and sadly in the case of Jay Miner are long since departed).

And to be honest asking C=USA to build you an OS4 compatible is a tall order, and the issue is the cost price of the parts being uneconomical in today's billions of instructions per second £400 i7 PCs in shops everywhere.

(I was never really interested in OS4/MOS seeing as all I am doing is running an emulator and using the same pirated ADFs to use the good stuff as on my Windows PC via WinUAE)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Rodomoc on December 23, 2011, 06:52:33 PM
Quote from: anglosaxonusa;672613
  • Defend and market the Amiga philosophy of piles of external devices ("Amiga: the duct-taped computer")

  • Keep things beige, angular, and "80s".  Everyone else is doing glossy, black, and sleek.  Go against the grain.
[/LIST]
 ---

I am quite through with my piles of duct taped/deviced legacy machines thus honestly couldn't defend this past the point of those purists wanting to do it that way for whatever reasons... At best I would be interested in more integrated legacy machine upgrade options. Other than this, then new hardware remains my interest whether it be 68k, or other Amiga hardware flavors. There are numerous really cool legacy machine hardware upgrade gizmos. I say combine them into more integrated solutions or as in my last post, just make a generic pci device everyone could use.

Agree with the idea on casework having legacy type appearances or colors. I am in process on using some old Commodore casework to hold modern Amiga type hardware. I'm not either way about CUSA in general but they did manage to make a new case that did look like a C64, which was a bit of an investment from a mold tooling standpoint. I am not interested in their computing products but if they elected to sell that C64 case/keyboard as parts, I'd buy a couple for sure and do my own hardware games on the inside. And as I mentioned in my first post, give me a ps2 or usb keyboard that is Amiga format. Again, cusa seemed to do the same for their C64 product.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 23, 2011, 07:01:32 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672630
Amithlon will never come back to life, thanks to the copyright vultures gnawing at the carcass of the Amiga (including ineffectual Hyperion in this group).


For the most part, I agree with you, but never say 'never.' CUSA has stated, effectively for us not to worry about issues like that, so I'm not against letting them try.

That said, while I favor an AROS-like solution, Amithlon (then and now) represents the best way forward by offering the best compatibility/speed/price option of them all.

It really is a shame it went down in flames...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Rodomoc on December 23, 2011, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;672630

Amithlon will never come back to life, thanks to the copyright vultures gnawing at the carcass of the Amiga (including ineffectual Hyperion in this group).

So You can see how the community is fragmented forever now? Some people will buy my creations, many won't. And to them I say all the best with whatever choices you go for.

(I was never really interested in OS4/MOS seeing as all I am doing is running an emulator and using the same pirated ADFs to use the good stuff as on my Windows PC via WinUAE)

---

It is too bad about Amithlon. This could have really turned into something if it stuck around and received development. Remind me to resurrect it from a BSD/Workbench 3.1 standpoint mixed with all of the Umilator stuff - if I ever win the lottery that is...While at it, make an integrated 3.1OS software update package taking that thing the whole 9 yards and equal or past next Gen Amiga OS variants. I would surely do it just to make a point.:roflmao:

Agree on fragmentation. It is get on board one of the offspring (or multiple offsprings) and stop thinking as the community as a single thing. For it clearly is not beyond historical source, API similarities or whatever other similarities still exist.

Emulation is cheapest 68K route obviously and offers a good bang for the buck. For legacy gamers I would assume they are relatively happy with this emulation route. The work Toni Wilson has done is quite impressive. For those wanting more modern software stuff out of 68K that competes with windows/linux/whatever stuff of today, probably not realistic... But still, running a full tilt AmigaOS 3.9 under WinUAE is an interesting experience.

I'm ok with the concept of next gen OS such as MorphOS or Aros. I like the overall software product and attitude of MOS developers . Aros is a long term platform sort of thing, in open source, with increasing levels of hardware portability. Plus they provide a feedback loop to other players so many end up benefiting. So I gotta support them forever.:)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Middleman on December 24, 2011, 03:35:55 AM
Quote from: Duce;672509
Dammy, C-USA is not Microsoft.  The idea you'd even remotely compare the two is appalling, regardless of your blind dedication to "the cause".  The Kinect (and your facts are misleading about what you stated about the pre-order factor involving MS directly in a funds down deposit with MS directly) is a completely invalid comparison, and C-USA is not Microsoft.  

MS has a worth of 44 billion dollars roughly, Dammy.  MS doesn't have a pack of insulting, roving fanboys working for free as their ad department.
MS had a revenue of 16 billion dollars, Q4 2011.  

==Duce, would you kindly please refrain from using such language? It is this sort of attitude that is getting us nowhere. I have not insulted anyone here or anyone else on any other Amiga site. I would hope that in the same spirit as fellow Amiga fans I offer this to you, would you please refrain from saying such things (if we are to go somewhere with this thread)?

Honestly I don't know about you, but I could imagine if we at user level, are having such 'heated arguments' about what the next Amiga should be, you could imagine what it was like at engineer level trying to work out the Advanced Amiga. Everyone is running around like a headless chicken. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the issue that caused Commodore to go down.....


Saying that, you have made some valid points earlier about CUSA that I couldn't deny. Yes we had heat issues with our machines…..at least I did with my early C64x Ultimate. And yes certain members who bought CUSA machines didn't have their questions answered, and I was a little bit annoyed by that. I'm not their staff so I do not know what the status of their support is like, but as fellow user I do try to help others when I can when they post something up on C-A.org.

However I will say that regarding the other unanswered questions, is if they are business-related (such as prior agreements/cancellation of projects with other companies) I do know they are not discussed openly by CUSA - this has been mentioned by Barry and Leo before. In this sense I do understand that CUSA has a right (like any other IT company) and acting like any other IT company, from refraining to disclose such information.


Now going back to the issue at hand (the new Amiga), there is certainly one thing I noticed from the recent Amiga Poll that was very startling that I found (amiga-poll.blogspot.com). And that was…..everybody is a PC user. Over 90% of the folks there who answered (including myself), was using a Windows PC for their day-to-day stuff….

Now if you go back to why the Amiga is/was no longer around…..you could say that is your answer. Because as users we have been in a way hypocrites…..we are loyal to the hardware and what it can do (for us), and not the brand. Otherwise why on Earth would so many have a Windows PC as their main machine today? If the Amiga was useful/successful, surely the poll would have reflected this?

Which brings me back to why I think Commodore failed the last time round…..
To be fair it wasn't Commodores fault…..it was because the majority market decided/realised that the Amiga's design was becoming too limited in the face of the x86 design. One thing that users couldn't do for sure was add/change a new graphics card in their system like you do in a PC. This, and the fact that the CPUs could be upgraded. I think these were the two killer points if you will, that killed off the Amiga, in addition to the PC already having an established software support base then…(which added another blow to the Amiga fan base).

Also one thing that differed the Windows PC with Commodore was this. If we look back at the 'success' of the 'Wintel' duopoly, ie. Intel and Microsoft, you will see that they 'built' upon their foundation, year on year. Every year the software or hardware that was produced by the x86 companies would be supporting the same platform. With Amiga however, Commodore first did it as 16-bit, then decided with the AAA/Hombre chipset to scrap its existing software/user base (like it did with the C64) and go onto completely different 32-bit/64-bit designs. This unfortunately I believe was the main reason why Amiga never survived. If you don't have backwards compatibility with your existing software base you lose market share…..

Going back to the question at hand, therefore I see that it is important that for the Amiga of tomorrow, we need to 'build' upon the foundations that is already here, not start afresh. What we do need to decide now on is, which one? At the moment two chipsets stick out for us at the moment, PowerPC and x86. 68k is not valid anymore because noone is making the chips anymore and it'll be hugely expensive to set up such foundaries again, so it is either one of the two. The question now is, what support base shall we work on?

To me, the answer lies with those who answered what machine they are currently using….(you guessed it, the Windows PC). Since it is now our favourite platform, how about going the full hog with developing AmigaOS/AROS on it? That'll clear up the 'decade old' question for good…..
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: persia on December 24, 2011, 04:42:44 AM
@Middleman

I think there's also a fair number of Mac users who chose not to answer your poll.  But of course Mac is Intel too.

As to the failure of Amiga the first go round, that I think was the fault of Commodore, and I think you can easily accept that since Commodore USA has absolutely nothing to do with the original Commodore except the brand name.  Commodore didn't feed money back into Amiga development, Amiga simply fell behind and by the time it shed itself of Commodore's incompetence it was too late.

I also think that the idea of traitors in electronics (or most any other consumer product) is silly.  I like macadamias, whenever I visit relative in southern Queensland/Northern New South Wales I gorge myself on their native nut.  When I get back home I eat cashews or walnuts.  Eating cashews or walnuts doesn't make me a traitor to Macademias.  I have several iOS tablets, I also have several Android tablets, using one doesn't make me a traitor to the other.  Life is too short to waste it on hating some brand because it isn't some other brand, but rather enjoying what you have and exploring the uses of what you have.

Brands come and go, how many companies have worn the Commodore brand in the computer market alone, not counting cars and other things.  Amiga means a certain thing to me, a link to places and times that were good.  An Amiga PC insults those times.  I won't allow one or my desk.  The PCs I use are either virtual or ones I put together out of parts.  I lose nothing by not purchasing Amiga PCs, I can put together a personal machine, with the parts I want.  There nothing unique to an Amiga PC, except a sticker, that, if the Commodore USA stickers are any indicating, I could print better myself.

It simply isn't possible to restart Amiga the way it was, cutting edge hardware, OS and Software, so what I would rather have is something in between, something that give me the ability to tinker and remember the past but also does more modern things  in case.  A PPC Amiga isn't idea, but it's all that can be put on the table at this point in time.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 24, 2011, 05:17:01 AM
Quote from: Middleman;672688
Saying that, you have made some valid points earlier about CUSA that I couldn't deny. Yes we had heat issues with our machines…..at least I did with my early C64x Ultimate. And yes certain members who bought CUSA machines didn't have their questions answered, and I was a little bit annoyed by that. I'm not their staff so I do not know what the status of their support is like, but as fellow user I do try to help others when I can when they post something up on C-A.org.
Is it me, or is this a very roundabout way of saying "CUSA hasn't been any help at all, so the users have had to step in and help each other?"

Quote
One thing that users couldn't do for sure was add/change a new graphics card in their system like you do in a PC. This, and the fact that the CPUs could be upgraded. I think these were the two killer points if you will, that killed off the Amiga
What? Commodore died because you couldn't upgrade an Amiga's video hardware (except that you totally could) and you could upgrade the CPU? How does that make any sense!?

Quote
Since it is now our favourite platform, how about going the full hog with developing AmigaOS/AROS on it? That'll clear up the 'decade old' question for good…..
It's not my favorite platform, or a lot of other people's. The fact that it's the most commonly-used attests only to the Wintel alliance's success in dominating the industry, not personal preference. And any attempt to establish it and "clear up the decades-old question" will do nothing of the sort, it'll only further alienate the non-x86 fans.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Kesa on December 24, 2011, 05:18:50 AM
@Middleman. Has it occurred to you that the reason people mostly use PC's, Windows and x86 is not because they want to but because they have no other choice? I use x86 but it is definitely not my "favourite". People want to use something else other than x86 for their hobby computers. Notice the word "hobby".
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 24, 2011, 09:45:22 AM
I use a PC every day at work.
I sometimes use a PC at home.

If I could run Open Office on my Amigas, I would stop doing so immediately. I long for a Windows-free environment.

There's only one reason I'm using x86 architecture at all, and that's because I have to... and I'm far from alone.
So saying that "we all use Windows/x86 therefore Windows/x86 is our favourite platform" is... somewhat inaccurate, shall we say...

I kind of agree with what Middleman said about there being fewer upgrade options with the Amiga; it's true that the Amiga could have its video and CPU upgraded, but this was mostly ignored by C=. For Wintel, on the other hand, it was forced upon the users.... and that did make a large difference.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: SysAdmin on December 24, 2011, 11:18:51 AM
@spirantho

Stop spinning tales, Windows is the favorite platform of this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo


:)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: jm4n on December 24, 2011, 04:20:51 PM
I stopped reading replies at page 3,  I've read many interesting points but also many who have their heads in the clouds.

Provided the good will (and good faith) of CUSA, I think the most affordable way for everyone is to stick to x86.

I'm really sorry for AmigaOS and MorphOS, but sticking to PPC/esoteric hardware it's a neverending fight against obsolescence.

Come on, AOS is a complete rewrite as AROS is, so which should be the one to be pushed forward? Classic AOS is already an emulated feature on anything more recent than a 680x0.

More than everything, what the Amiga community needs is the support of developers. Improve the hardware compatibility for AROS and make it cheap to be installed on commodity hardware. Make that platform interesting for developers!

Unfortunately, according to the ~800 voters of this poll (http://www.amiga-poll.blogspot.com), my thoughts are not shared :-)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Middleman on December 24, 2011, 06:12:11 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;672696
Is it me, or is this a very roundabout way of saying "CUSA hasn't been any help at all, so the users have had to step in and help each other?"


==I guess you could say that.... :P
Well CUSA are actually quite helpful but are just currently understaffed (sadly). And being an early supporter myself, well why not? Is there anything wrong with that?

Quote from: commodorejohn;672696

What? Commodore died because you couldn't upgrade an Amiga's video hardware (except that you totally could) and you could upgrade the CPU? How does that make any sense!?


==Yes I think so...it ultimately led to its demise (I believe) because the PC architecture became open-ended. 3D cards (in their early phases anyway) from Voodoo/Hercules and the like was already out for PCs by the time the Amiga 1000 was 4 years old (from what I remember). I mean I was running Corel Draw 3D back in 1989 on a 286 PC and by 1993 I had cards which could display 16.7 million colors and systems that could run CD-ROM. The Amiga couldn't and didn't have much then.....

Quote from: commodorejohn;672696

It's not my favorite platform, or a lot of other people's. The fact that it's the most commonly-used attests only to the Wintel alliance's success in dominating the industry, not personal preference. And any attempt to establish it and "clear up the decades-old question" will do nothing of the sort, it'll only further alienate the non-x86 fans.


==Well I believe it is the low cost of the Wintel systems that has ensured its dominance - this is why it is commonly used. But saying that, some of you in the poll could've answered PowerPC Mac or Android Tablet or Linux-based laptop/PC - why just Windows PC? Just sayin'...


BTW Persia it is not my poll.....someone else put it up, not me...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 24, 2011, 06:23:08 PM
Quote from: Middleman;672760
==I guess you could say that.... :P
Well CUSA are actually quite helpful but are just currently understaffed (sadly). And being an early supporter myself, well why not? Is there anything wrong with that?


But why are they understaffed?

A big company that has apparently had a $30m advertising budget, but doesn't have enough staff to answer support questions? Just doesn't make sense....
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on December 24, 2011, 07:08:30 PM
A company that had a sponsorship deal with Disney, a company that has ties to Motorola, a company that was going to have boxes of their systems on Best Buy shelves, a company with 30 million dollar budget.

Now understaffed - why?  Last I was told they were selling tens of thousands of the machines.  Doesn't add up, does it?  And this company that you readily admit is understaffed is coming here, wanting to do all sorts of engineering magic and gee whiz marketing inventiveness to bring what "WE* want via this Challenge, and they don't even have the staff to manage what they have now apparently, while it's being proposed as a pay up front deal?  The guy on Reddit paid up front too.  Maybe he also got threats when he asked questions, too.  Wonder if he ever got his machine, and if he had heat issues and was told to buy a laptop cooler too.  Maybe he was lucky like the other guy, and it arrived and the keyboard wasn't even hooked up and the wifi wouldn't work when it got warm.

Having faith and being "early supporters" are just fine, but 1 + 1 just isn't equaling 2 here on any of this, is it?  Eating the pablum on the spoon they are cramming in open mouths due to wishful thinking is one thing, ignoring the many obvious questions going unanswered and the sheer amount of contradiction is just too much to swallow, lol.

Wonder why the words "deposit" and "support" make people nervous, and why people mention the words "track record"?  Now where do I send my deposit!!?!?!!!  Note the phone number for Homecraft is still the same as Commodore USA.  With 30 million dollars, you'd think an extra phone line would have been doable.

http://www.bbb.org/south-east-florida/business-reviews/bathroom-fixtures-and-accessories-retailing/homecraft-in-fort-lauderdale-fl-23006396
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: persia on December 24, 2011, 07:59:38 PM
@Duce

Add to that the number of posters on their website, something doesn't add up.  Oe of the beauties of being a privately held company is that their are no annual reports, no securities filings, nothing that reveals the actual strength of the company.  From everything I can see or read they look like a company with sales in the thousands not tens of thousands.....
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: CritAnime on December 24, 2011, 08:03:51 PM
One thing I have noticed is the recent Q&A with Barry where he mantioned this.
 
Quote
6. Do you have any plans to make available an 'emulation wrapper', ie what Amiga Inc did with their Cinemaware games, to allow compatibility directly with old Amiga games/applications and Commodore OS?
 
The E-UAE/UAE and VICE emulators are already present in Commodore OS and will soon, perhaps even in the next update, include AROS ROMs allowing ALL Commodore OS Vision users to run Amiga games. Further features that facilitate classic software launching within Commodore OS will be refined over time through updates for a more seamless experience.
 

I thought that they werent allowed to use the AROS roms?
 
http://www.commodore-amiga.org/en/forum/27-commodore-usa/5540-qaa-with-cusa?limit=15&start=45#11148
 
Also I have to agree that something just doesnt seem right with a company that supposidly has massive resources yet can't staff the facility and requires people to put money down first before starting a new Amiga range.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 24, 2011, 08:50:25 PM
All I'm going to say on the matter is this:
1) C=USA have no technical staff, otherwise C=OS would have been more than just a reskin. Also they would be being used to provide support.
2) C=USA have asked for us to provide ideas,  for them to implement in 6 months. That's about 24 weeks. There is no way anything close to what the Amiga commmunity will ask for will be done in this time. They would need this time just for testing alone - ask Trevor. He hired a professional team of experienced designers for the X1000 and it still took nearly two years. How can a company with no technical know-how do it in 6 months?
3) C=USA know full well that the chances of 500 Amiga people agreeing on what they want to the extent of plonking down the cash is close to zero.
4) It is not good business practice to promise something you may not be able to provide. Say 500 people agree to an AOS 4.x x86 port. C=USA take the money, and then Hyperion tell them to take a hike. What then?  Do we have to keep going through polls until we find a solution that they can legally do?

I can't quite work out whether they're being very naive (and being serious), genuinely trying to repair relations with the community they themselves went out of their way to alienate, or just having a laugh.

My gut feeling is that Leo (who I do think is genuine) really does want to repair relations with Amiga users, and that Barry (who has specifically told us where we can go) just doesn't care but is happy to let Leo do what he wants.... but it just comes across as desperation and a lack of a clear focus. This isn't the way to mend relations, this sounds like someone who wants to but doesn't know how to. C=USA need to do their own market research, and then work out if it's possible and how long it will take. They then should speak to the relevant companies (this can take months alone), and work out a licensing deal. After that they need to double the time it'll take, because these things always take longer than expected.

Once they've got:
A popular design of their choosing.
An accurate timescale including time to spare for unforseen hold-ups.
A pessimistic valuation of money required to cope with unforseen costs.
Agreed licensing deals with all parties concerned.
Green light from all lawyers and rights holders.

... THEN they can start taking pre-orders into an escrow service, with a clearly written legal document checked with professional lawyers, ensuring compliance with all regional variations in laws. Remember we're talking about a LOT of money here, maybe up to a million dollars.

Once all that is in place, maybe I'll be interested, but at the moment it's all upside-down, back-to-front and topsy-turvy.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: EDanaII on December 24, 2011, 09:43:41 PM
Quote
2) C=USA have asked for us to provide ideas, for them to implement in 6 months. That's about 24 weeks. There is no way anything close to what the Amiga commmunity will ask for will be done in this time. They would need this time just for testing alone - ask Trevor. He hired a professional team of experienced designers for the X1000 and it still took nearly two years. How can a company with no technical know-how do it in 6 months?


There are a couple of things that are doable withing that 6 month time-frame. One is AROS on a particular set of hardware. I think OS4.1 or MorphOS on x86 are also doable, but less likely, assuming, of course, that either are willing to be a part of that. Beyond that, yes, I think you're correct, anything else in 6 months is highly doubtful.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: haywirepc on December 24, 2011, 10:01:51 PM
"I thought that they werent allowed to use the AROS roms?"

I would think since they are open source anyone can use them for anything provided the authors requirements are met. If I wrote or created those roms I'd object to them using them simply because of the way they have treated AROS, and its developers/supporters.

After first claiming that they would be "heavily funding AROS development" then backing out when it wasn't convienant for them... THEN not offering a single penny to aros bounties... They insult AROS and its community again and again... And Next?

Next they announce they will take parts of AROS to include in their "commodore OS"?

As for their past promises to heavily fund AROS, not a penny so far... Not a SINGLE penny. Here's a "company" thats supposed to have a 30 million dollar advertising budget.
I would think even just kicking AROS bounties 10 or 20 thousand dollars wouldn't be
too hard, to keep a promise you made. Instead, they are fine with everyone knowing
they are liars, braggards and bull****ters.

"Heavily funding AROS development" means not a single penny?

But hey, now that you have something we think we can use (steal really) we'll use it, and you still won't see a single penny from them towards AROS bounties, which actually pay for the tech they are intending to use...

Why would anyone buy ANYTHING from a company that acts like that?

Also, I agree no way in hell anything other than perhaps a custom cased x86 computer could realistically be created in that time frame. Thats a ridiculous timeframe and they hyped this c64x for like 2 years before it was a real thing...

So pardon me if I think they are full of... BULL**** as usual.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 26, 2011, 02:06:43 PM
Quote from: koaftder;672012
Work out an agreement with the Natami project so folks can get that in a properly branded Amiga case.


If the Amiga Community was behind it, I bet they would.  But where are the 500 people wanting it?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Tripitaka on December 27, 2011, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: dammy;672937
If the Amiga Community was behind it, I bet they would.  But where are the 500 people wanting it?


Take a look at the Natami forums if you think we're a hard sell. I don't rate CUSA having any chance of convincing the Natami team.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 07:23:47 AM
Quote from: Tripitaka;673034
Take a look at the Natami forums if you think we're a hard sell. I don't rate CUSA having any chance of convincing the Natami team.


Pretty sad that the online Amiga Community can't get a quick 500 people together on a single project to support.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: haywirepc on December 27, 2011, 08:03:17 AM
Oh so thats what this is about, put this out there so you can blame the community for cusa's failures? After saying we're not their target market then come begging for pre-orders then blame the community when its more BULL**** from cusa and nothing happens.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 27, 2011, 08:36:28 AM
I'm trying to find a nice way of saying "you mean it's taken you this long to figure that out?!"..... :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Krischan76 on December 27, 2011, 09:13:35 AM
Quote from: dammy;673047
Pretty sad that the online Amiga Community can't get a quick 500 people together on a single project to support.


Thanks for confirming my suspicion on how this CUSA scheme was designed to work from the beginning.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 02:26:44 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;673049
Oh so thats what this is about, put this out there so you can blame the community for cusa's failures? After saying we're not their target market then come begging for pre-orders then blame the community when its more BULL**** from cusa and nothing happens.


Come begging to make stuff at dead costs?  No one comes begging to make a new product at dead costs.   Haters have to hate, I suppose.  That is one hell of a deal they offered you all, and you can't come up with 500  votes to call their hand?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: Krischan76;673054
Thanks for confirming my suspicion on how this CUSA scheme was designed to work from the beginning.


So call their hand then.  There is 500 people left in the online Amiga Community, isn't there?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: wawrzon on December 27, 2011, 03:21:38 PM
Quote from: dammy;673072
Come begging to make stuff at dead costs?  No one comes begging to make a new product at dead costs.   Haters have to hate, I suppose.  That is one hell of a deal they offered you all, and you can't come up with 500  votes to call their hand?


you were bashing this or better kind of deals around here long enough, do i have to hint yet? so why are you suprised if now cusa proposition is met with scepticism, even if this is your prefference. if they want to make some product addressing this community then they may want to go ahead and show off as they did with the 64 replica.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: CritAnime on December 27, 2011, 03:47:38 PM
Why is a company like Commodore USA so needy for 500 people to invest in their little project. Surely if they were in the great position they claim to be in they wouldnt need that.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Tripitaka on December 27, 2011, 04:09:24 PM
Quote from: CritAnime;673088
Why is a company like Commodore USA so needy for 500 people to invest in their little project. Surely if they were in the great position they claim to be in they wouldnt need that.


And that of course, is the golden question.

Honestly Dammy, the best thing CUSA could do now is sell on the Amiga name to Hyperion and make Commodore PCs to their hearts content. At least that would save them some hate mail.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vonshep on December 27, 2011, 04:09:38 PM
This post is a joke. Seriously, c'mon!

What does the Amiga community want? You shouldn't even have to ask if you care enough to read these forums.

What we want is a new Amiga. Not a bunch of empty promises. Make a new Amiga, be innovative about it like the original was, make the price reasonable, and put it on the market. Then we'll buy into it.... maybe.

Don't ask 500 members to financially support your joke of a company. That's your responsibility, not ours. We are doing just fine without you. You want to change that? Then get busy and make a new Amiga that we'll want to buy.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 27, 2011, 04:33:17 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;673049
Oh so thats what this is about, put this out there so you can blame the community for cusa's failures? After saying we're not their target market then come begging for pre-orders then blame the community when its more BULL**** from cusa and nothing happens.
A-yup. Make an offer you know you won't be called upon to fulfill, and then you can act like everybody else is the *******...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: persia on December 27, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
After careful observation it would have become apparent that the only way for C=USA to win would be to give the community what it wants.  This would cause the community to collectively spit the dummy and send it off in 30 directions at once.  Just like Tito's Yugoslavia we were united in collective hate of of a common enemy.  Remove the enemy and we would immediately start attacking one another.

This community deserve Amiga branded generic PCs...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;673085
you were bashing this or better kind of deals around here long enough, do i have to hint yet? so why are you suprised if now cusa proposition is met with scepticism, even if this is your prefference. if they want to make some product addressing this community then they may want to go ahead and show off as they did with the 64 replica.


They do have plans for their Commodore Amiga series.  This isn't about what C=USA wanted, this is about offering the online Amiga Community a chance to get something they wanted at dead cost.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: commodorejohn on December 27, 2011, 05:32:41 PM
Quote from: dammy;673105
They do have plans for their Commodore Amiga series.
Would those be the $25,000 workstations built from commodity parts by a company nobody's heard of with zero reputation for end-user support? Yeah, good luck with that.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 05:34:31 PM
Quote from: CritAnime;673088
Why is a company like Commodore USA so needy for 500 people to invest in their little project. Surely if they were in the great position they claim to be in they wouldnt need that.


You have it reversed.  This is not C=USA's little project, this is offering the online Amiga Community a chance to get projects done at dead costs that online Amiga Community wanted.  You don't want the chance of buying something that the majority of the online Amiga Community wanted at dead cost, you most certainly don't have to do a thing.  I find it kinda funny that those who are most vocal on these threads are the most likely to never to participate and just want to throw dung around in a hate fest.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;673091
And that of course, is the golden question.

Honestly Dammy, the best thing CUSA could do now is sell on the Amiga name to Hyperion and make Commodore PCs to their hearts content. At least that would save them some hate mail.


Not at all.  The best thing for C=USA is to ignore the haters and continue on.  There is no reason to yield to a bunch of online haters that total to less then a hundred people.   This offer is a prime example that the haters will never be satisfied and should be ignored entirely because they will always spew their hatred regardless what is done for the online Amiga Community.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: CritAnime on December 27, 2011, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: dammy;673108
You have it reversed.  This is not C=USA's little project, this is offering the online Amiga Community a chance to get projects done at dead costs that online Amiga Community wanted.  You don't want the chance of buying something that the majority of the online Amiga Community wanted at dead cost, you most certainly don't have to do a thing.  I find it kinda funny that those who are most vocal on these threads are the most likely to never to participate and just want to throw dung around in a hate fest.

Dammy lets get this straight. IF Commodore USA where to produce a product that did everything they promised with the communities and IF it was reasonably priced then not only would I hold my hand up and say sorry but I would probably invest in one. But I don't have loads of money laying spare to throw into a escrow for six months for a product that is not even off the drawing board. Once CUSA make their mind up on how much these things are gonna cost then maybe people would be willing to put the money in. But saying 500 people need to put an, as so far, undisclosed amount of money into a random escrow on pure faith to start the project, something that is lacking with CUSA especially when you come along basically calling the community in large cowards because we are not willing to do it, is a bit much.

So again if CUSA are in such a good position to provide these service to the community can they not do like they did with the C64X and produce the machines, say a batch of 500, and then sell them "at cost" to the first 500 people who buy them. Seems to me thats a more reasonable offer.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 05:57:48 PM
Quote from: vonshep;673092
This post is a joke. Seriously, c'mon!

What does the Amiga community want? You shouldn't even have to ask if you care enough to read these forums.


Perhaps what is what the online Amiga Community is willing to actually buy is in serious doubt.   Look at the A1X1K and see if anyone thinks this is going to be a profitable venture for A-EON.

Quote
What we want is a new Amiga. Not a bunch of empty promises. Make a new Amiga, be innovative about it like the original was, make the price reasonable, and put it on the market. Then we'll buy into it.... maybe.


That's really encouraging for a few hundred possible sales.

Quote
Don't ask 500 members to financially support your joke of a company. That's your responsibility, not ours.


That is where you have it wrong, the 500 people are going to be supporting the Amiga Community since C=USA is doing this all at dead costs.  You act like C=USA is going to be making a profit off those 500 sales, they are not.  They are offering this deal as a reach out to the online Amiga Community as a peace offering, and it seems their hands are getting slapped for their effort.  The online Amiga Community wants something, whines about something, and then given the chance to get it, at dead cost, they piss all over the person offering them a hell of a deal.

Quote
We are doing just fine without you. You want to change that?


Reality check for you, the online (and offline) Amiga Community is not doing well.  It is withering away with fewer and fewer Amiga users each year.  If it was doing just fine, Genesi would still be making Pegs and PPC EFIKAs, SAM440/460s would be seeing annual sales of thousands of units.  Look how many active posters on AO have left over the past five years. I doubt you can find a new PPC EFIKA, let alone a Peg anymore.  SAMs are not flying off the shelf and I doubt a total of a thousand have been sold over all the years since SAM 440 was released.


Quote
Then get busy and make a new Amiga that we'll want to buy.


Oh, they are making their own Commodore Amiga series, do out  in the second or third quarter of 2012.  You see they will be selling those for profit, unlike the offer they gave to the online Amiga Community which is at dead cost as a favor to the online Amiga Community.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 06:15:40 PM
Quote from: CritAnime;673113
Dammy lets get this straight. IF Commodore USA where to produce a product that did everything they promised with the communities

C=USA didn't promised anything in this deal other then to hold up their end of the bargain.  They are asking what the online Amiga Community wants as a new product, with exact details, in numbers with the payment to cover the dead costs in a third party escrow account until the product ships.  

Quote
and IF it was reasonably priced then not only would I hold my hand up and say sorry but I would probably invest in one. But I don't have loads of money laying spare to throw into a escrow for six months for a product that is not even off the drawing board.

There isn't even a hint of a given product that the online Amiga Community wants out of this deal.  Before you can get as far as you just said, the online Amiga Community has to get 500 people to agree on a given product, with details and turn it over to C=USA.  C=USA does the research and gives a total number of what 500 units is going to cost them.  Then it's the online Amiga Community's turn to gather the 500 payments, to a mutally agreed to third party escrow account and then C=USA goes into action making the item on C=USA's capital until the product ships to those 500 people.

Quote
Once CUSA make their mind up on how much these things are gonna cost then maybe people would be willing to put the money in. But saying 500 people need to put an, as so far, undisclosed amount of money into a random escrow on pure faith to start the project, something that is lacking with CUSA especially when you come along basically calling the community in large cowards because we are not willing to do it, is a bit much.

See above for corrections to what you think the offer is about.  That's the kicker, at this stage, it's about getting agreement what the first project should be by 500 people, then the next phase is to find out the total cost is going to be.  There isn't even a hint of what the project should be that would be supported by 500 people getting their dream hardware item.

Quote
So again if CUSA are in such a good position to provide these service to the community can they not do like they did with the C64X and produce the machines, say a batch of 500, and then sell them "at cost" to the first 500 people who buy them. Seems to me thats a more reasonable offer.

If the online Amiga Community can't decide what they want of 500 units, at dead costs, how the hell is C=USA going to know for them to take a financial risk on?   You act like C=USA is making this offer to screw you out of money, that isn't the case at all.  If anything, C=USA is taking a huge financial risk because if the project goes forward and if they under estimated the costs because of whatever reason, they are going to be eating the difference on a project that they are not going to see a profit on from the start.  Can you find a better deal then that?

It is the online Amiga Community's ball, do it with what you may.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: eliyahu on December 27, 2011, 06:29:49 PM
Quote from: dammy;673115
Perhaps what is what the online Amiga Community is willing to actually buy is in serious doubt.   Look at the A1X1K and see if anyone thinks this is going to be a profitable venture for A-EON.
i'm sure your arguments pro CUSA are strong enough to stand on their own merit.  please stop dragging A-EON into your posts every time you feel threatened.  whether or not the X1000 is profitable has no bearing on whether any CUSA product will be profitable, nor on whether or not the community will take advantage of CUSA's largesse.  thanks.  :)

by the way, i think the community is treating CUSA unfairly in this instance, actually.  there are plenty of things for us to be angry about with regards their behavior in the past (and present), but people shouldn't be complaining when they offer an olive branch such as this.  one of the biggest complaints was, "they're not interested in the community! they only want to profit off TeH NAmE!!"  it isn't right that those very people should now complain when CUSA are interested in what the community wants, or imply that CUSA offering to produce said desire at cost as somehow evil and malicious.

i may be one of the biggest CUSA detractors around, but the community reaction to their offer doesn't add up.  why not take them up on their offer?  what do we have to lose, exactly?  if it isn't genuine, then nothing will have changed.  and if it is, we can only benefit.  what am i missing here? :confused:

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: CritAnime on December 27, 2011, 06:41:47 PM
My complaint isn't that they are now interested in the community, this is actually a refreshing step forward give the past between the various aspects of the community as a whole. But rather why we need to put money into an escrow for a product that, once the community decides what they actually want, will not be seen for six months. A deposit I can understand to secure the unit. But the full money.

Quote
4. A minimum of 500 customers must pre-pay the entire amount in an independent account at a trusted institution (at the community's discretion) for the project to begin.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 27, 2011, 07:32:23 PM
What I don't understand is why people are bothering to even think about this deal.
I mean, even if we forget the animosity toward C=USA; even if we forget the huge gaping holes in the logic of the offer (like deciding on a project to go with when they've not even got permission for all interested parties); even forgetting all that there is one simple fact that we cannot ignore:

At low volume the price is guaranteed to be at least several hundred dollars: what are the chances of getting 500 people of such a small community to agree to a project, for it to be legally possible and permitted by all parties, and for them to pay up real cash in advance for a project, even just $100?

Then you add in the fact that it'll probably take 10 polls before people agree on something that's feasible in 6 months, and legally possible and permitted.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 27, 2011, 07:38:47 PM
Quote from: CritAnime;673088
Why is a company like Commodore USA so needy for 500 people to invest in their little project. Surely if they were in the great position they claim to be in they wouldnt need that.


I found their PC's overpriced and I would be happy with a Dell or another computer anyday.  If being overpriced is what they pay to slap the Commodore logo onto every machine then Amiga users are going to be gouged by doing business with them and everyone should stop.

If they need our money then why wouldn't they they need to make to make a profit?  If they don't need our money then why do they want it up front?

When people don't want to answer questions or show us their financials then I have to question whether they are involved in organized crime.  Seriously, why wouldn't they want us to know they are honest?  Why wouldn't they want us to know they have nothing to hide?  Would you let me sell your house without a background check?

There are a lot of things I don't know about their plans with the Amiga community and it hasn't been spelled out and since there isn't an Amiga leader here, it makes the future even more murkier.

This is what I hear:  "I have a business plan for the Amiga community.  I'm not going to tell you what it costs.  I'm not going to tell you the specifics but you have an ultimatum to invest in 500 units at costs.  We're going to listen to the Amiga community which doesn't have a leader and not talk to those who are already in business and we're not going to explain to you where we're getting the technology from.  We're not going to tell you who were are or what our track record is.  We're not going to tell you our investment strategies, R&D strategies or any plan for the future.  We're not going to talk a lot for the record."

Excuse me but I wasn't born yesterday because I have been down this road with other con-artists.  Am I the only one who has been lied to and everyone else is gullible?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 27, 2011, 07:54:50 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;673132
Excuse me but I wasn't born yesterday because I have been down this road with other con-artists.  Am I the only one who has been lied to and everyone else is gullible?


Nope, and I very much doubt they'll be able to find 500 people who don't feel the same.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
Quote from: CritAnime;673126
My complaint isn't that they are now interested in the community, this is actually a refreshing step forward give the past between the various aspects of the community as a whole. But rather why we need to put money into an escrow for a product that, once the community decides what they actually want, will not be seen for six months. A deposit I can understand to secure the unit. But the full money.


They have up to six months to ship the unit out, then after six months,  any and everyone is free to pull their money out of escrow.   Mean while, C=USA is using their own capital to fund the production, if not the actual design, and perhaps licenses for a final cost of zero profit.  There is the danger for C=USA to under estimate the final cost (like it a part has to go under an additional revisions) which means C=USA is going to be losing money.  For that reason alone, it's perfectly reasonable to have the full amount sitting in escrow for when C=USA ships.

What I don't understand is why are people so concerned about it when there hasn't been a product been chosen by 500 people to get a price on.  What if the product dead cost is sub $200USD, are people going to be so damning of keeping sub $200USD in escrow for several months?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 08:29:26 PM
Quote from: spirantho;673130
What I don't understand is why people are bothering to even think about this deal.
I mean, even if we forget the animosity toward C=USA; even if we forget the huge gaping holes in the logic of the offer (like deciding on a project to go with when they've not even got permission for all interested parties); even forgetting all that there is one simple fact that we cannot ignore:


You are jumping ahead of things.  If the online Amiga Community can decided on a initial project, then C=USA has to do the research in the costs, which would include any needed license fees, that would go into a dead cost quote.  C=USA would then say what the quote is then it's up to the online Amiga Community to get the 500 order payments into a third party escrow account before C=USA will begin.  If C=USA can't get a license, then they announce the project is not possible because of the license issue.  Where is the gap of logic at there?

Quote
At low volume the price is guaranteed to be at least several hundred dollars: what are the chances of getting 500 people of such a small community to agree to a project, for it to be legally possible and permitted by all parties, and for them to pay up real cash in advance for a project, even just $100?

Then you add in the fact that it'll probably take 10 polls before people agree on something that's feasible in 6 months, and legally possible and permitted.


Why would a project cost $150K USD as a bare minimum?  It would depend on the project.  Remember, this is being done at dead cost, C=USA won't make a dime of profit off of it so it might be under $200USD @ unit, (total of $100KUSD) again, depending on what the project is.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 27, 2011, 08:34:46 PM
Quote from: dammy;673140
What I don't understand is why are people so concerned about it when there hasn't been a product been chosen by 500 people to get a price on.  What if the product dead cost is sub $200USD, are people going to be so damning of keeping sub $200USD in escrow for several months?


It isn't going to be $200 USD.  Their C-64X Ultimate is $999 and their C-64 Extreme is $1495.  Their Vic line costs about $500 unless you want something bare bones.  Lets say out of argument that it costs $500 to $700.  That is a lot of money and it is being spent on nostalgia.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 27, 2011, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: dammy;673141
Why would a project cost $150K USD as a bare minimum?  It would depend on the project.  Remember, this is being done at dead cost, C=USA won't make a dime of profit off of it so it might be under $200USD @ unit, (total of $100KUSD) again, depending on what the project is.


A product has to be able to sell itself or it isn't worth anything.  Getting people together just adds security to them but won't make the unit sellable in the future unless it can already sell itself.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 08:57:31 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;673143
It isn't going to be $200 USD.  Their C-64X Ultimate is $999 and their C-64 Extreme is $1495.  Their Vic line costs about $500 unless you want something bare bones.  Lets say out of argument that it costs $500 to $700.  That is a lot of money and it is being spent on nostalgia.


Did it say somewhere it has to be a full blown computer?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 27, 2011, 09:03:16 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;673144
A product has to be able to sell itself or it isn't worth anything.  Getting people together just adds security to them but won't make the unit sellable in the future unless it can already sell itself.


This is a peace offering to the online Amiga Community and not a new star product for C=USA to base 10K+ unit sales on.  Minimum of 500 is what they are asking for numbers of orders.  After the first batch (at dead cost), they may never sell another unit again if they sold a second batch publicly for profit if they ever decided to make a second run.  I don't see why this is difficult to grasp, what they are offering to do is just for the online Amiga Community at dead cost and not a new line that they are going to make profit on with high sales volume.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Tripitaka on December 27, 2011, 09:05:24 PM
The poll results on blogspot are already showing the direction that this mythical machine would need to go in. That being, a powerful  PPC CPU with OS4, running legacy and next gen apps, in a wedgy case (with a mini tower option too maybe). That's the situation. So all CUSA needs to do is to let Hyperion use the names "Commodore" and "Amiga" and let them get on with it.

What part of that requires 500 people paying $500+ up front ?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 27, 2011, 09:10:31 PM
Quote from: dammy;673147
Did it say somewhere it has to be a full blown computer?


If it is missing stuff like memory, storage and so forth, it won't work for the average user.

I went through all of that with the Amax where I had to buy Apple Roms, an Apple 400K drive and an Amax and then I was scared that I wouldn't be able to buy the roms, etc.  It was a hassle.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 27, 2011, 09:10:51 PM
Quote from: dammy;673141
You are jumping ahead of things.  If the online Amiga Community can decided on a initial project, then C=USA has to do the research in the costs, which would include any needed license fees, that would go into a dead cost quote.  C=USA would then say what the quote is then it's up to the online Amiga Community to get the 500 order payments into a third party escrow account before C=USA will begin.  If C=USA can't get a license, then they announce the project is not possible because of the license issue.  Where is the gap of logic at there?


The gap of logic is that even if a project is agreed upon to a level that 500 people would take part, the chances of ALL of them still wanting to do so after the price is decided, and that the project is deemed possible, and that the project is accepted by all interested license and rights holders is close to nil. Then you have to go through the whole polling process again, except this time the chances of everyone agreeing are even smaller as their first choice has been dismissed. By the time you end up with a project that's permissable, you're talking about a mouse or something.

Quote

Why would a project cost $150K USD as a bare minimum?  It would depend on the project.  Remember, this is being done at dead cost, C=USA won't make a dime of profit off of it so it might be under $200USD @ unit, (total of $100KUSD) again, depending on what the project is.


Show me a project with only 500 units that costs less than $150, and will interest Amiga users sufficiently to cough up....

The whole thing is back to front. You can't as a company ask the public what they want, because people will never agree; this is exacerbated by the fact that most people aren't technical and don't know what's feasible and what's not, so you'll end up with as many crazy suggestions as sensible ones.

Please give me any example at all of a successful company asking the public what they want and then going with it.

The "visionaries" of this world didn't ask the public what they wanted, they showed them the project and made them want it.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 27, 2011, 09:14:11 PM
Quote from: dammy;673148
This is a peace offering to the online Amiga Community and not a new star product for C=USA to base 10K+ unit sales on.  Minimum of 500 is what they are asking for numbers of orders.  After the first batch (at dead cost), they may never sell another unit again if they sold a second batch publicly for profit if they ever decided to make a second run.  I don't see why this is difficult to grasp, what they are offering to do is just for the online Amiga Community at dead cost and not a new line that they are going to make profit on with high sales volume.


Their prices are already high for normal PC computers using the Commodore name.  If "at cost" is the "peace offering" then regular prices are for the upgrade which I can hardly afford.  The real question is why aren't the every day prices more reasonable like other PC companies?  And I thought you said they were nice all the time which means the "peace offering" doesn't matter because I'll get that fair price all the time.  Right?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 27, 2011, 09:20:27 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;673149
The poll results on blogspot are already showing the direction that this mythical machine would need to go in. That being, a powerful  PPC CPU with OS4, running legacy and next gen apps, in a wedgy case (with a mini tower option too maybe). That's the situation. So all CUSA needs to do is to let Hyperion use the names "Commodore" and "Amiga" and let them get on with it.

What part of that requires 500 people paying $500+ up front ?


As long as C=USA stick to what they have experience of, i.e. building cases then that's right. But C=USA have a whelk's chance in a supernova of actually building a new machine in 6 months from start to finish.  A veteran company with a staff of hundreds would struggle to do that.

That's the only way I can see this offer working at all; the Amiga community need to keep their feet on the ground. C=USA have proven they can build cases. Yes there were some mistakes (overheating for example), but they've learned from that. If the Amiga community agree to ask C=USA for a wedge-shaped case for an existing machine (e.g. Sam Flex/460), they might get it, but it'll be a push in 6 months. The problem is that traditionally the Amiga people get carried away and start asking for crazy things like an OS4 machine with the Hombre chipset or something totally impossible in 6 years, let alone 6 months.

This would work very well for C=USA, in fact, because the Sam boards are standard form factor, so they'd fit a PC. So Sam users get the wedge case and are happy, and the C=USA crowd get a wedge case  with "Amiga" written on, running Linux, and they're happy.

I have to say though I still think it's completely academic.... there's no way I can see 500 people plonking down any money into such a venture, escrow or not, even more so in the economic climate we're in.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: eliyahu on December 27, 2011, 09:28:36 PM
Quote from: spirantho;673156
As long as C=USA stick to what they have experience of, i.e. building cases then that's right. But C=USA have a whelk's chance in a supernova of actually building a new machine in 6 months from start to finish.  A veteran company with a staff of hundreds would struggle to do that.

what's a whelk got to do with a supernova? :lol:

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 27, 2011, 09:34:01 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;673157
what's a whelk got to do with a supernova? :lol:


It doesn't stand a chance in one....
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: amiman99 on December 27, 2011, 09:58:39 PM
I would support CUSA if they created one of those:
Amiga Laptop: http://www.osnews.com/story/25251/AmigaOne_X1000_To_Ship_by_Year_s_End_Amiga_Netbook_Announced
A1000 Recreation with 060 card: http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/gba1000/gba1000.htm
http://www.gb97816.homepage.t-online.de/

Click on Projekte tab.

First: The laptop was promised by other vendor, but if CUSA was first to the market with affordable OS4 Laptop, I will support that. The major obstacle would be the drivers.
Second: If CUSA could partner with Georg Braun, the creator of GB A1000 MB, I would support them also. The design is done and working so I don't see any problems with 6mo delivery. Fingers crossed for this one.(Dreaming)
My 2c
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 27, 2011, 10:32:25 PM
But who's going to do it?
Hyperion aren't going to, they have their hands full. C=USA don't have the technical experience of software engineering. Who else is going to code the drivers, who has the experience to write the drivers and test them in 6 months. And if they're just going to pay for the drivers, because that's all you need - i.e. the design is done and working - then what do we need C=USA for at all? We could just pay for the drivers ourselves, or if we really need an intermediary, use a confirmed, reliable one like ACube.

It just doesn't make sense...
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Rodomoc on December 27, 2011, 11:42:53 PM
I wonder if this entire thread is a marketing survey of sorts. 6 months development timeline to develop what exactly? I would be interested in the true resources at play here. Obviously there is some capability to farm tasks out like 3D scanning, 3D cad design, injection mold building, contracting out a keyboard construction. I'm good with all of that and do this sort of crap for a living. But hardware design of any complexity? At best I can see using something that already exists out there and adapting software to it. I think we need the original poster to say something more here.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: danwood on December 28, 2011, 10:05:37 AM
Quote from: dammy;673047
Pretty sad that the online Amiga Community can't get a quick 500 people together on a single project to support.

Had it been a different company sure, but personally I'm not interested in doing business with Barry after his appalling, amateurish behaviour, nor would I trust him to offer any after-sales support.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 28, 2011, 12:53:22 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;673151
If it is missing stuff like memory, storage and so forth, it won't work for the average user.


Let me try my question again, what part of C=USA's challenge says it has to be a mobo?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 28, 2011, 12:56:27 PM
Quote from: spirantho;673152
Show me a project with only 500 units that costs less than $150, and will interest Amiga users sufficiently to cough up....


Wireless Amiga keyboard as an example and I don't mean a cheapo keyboard with boingballs glued to the window keys.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 28, 2011, 01:11:47 PM
That's an interesting idea, true. But I think the polls are going to be a bit more ambitious. After all, Leo kind of made it sound like C=USA would do anything, and a new keyboard isn't really the hopes and dreams of most people, it'd just be nice.

It is a good idea, though, I grant you. :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 28, 2011, 01:44:29 PM
Quote from: dammy;673236
Let me try my question again, what part of C=USA's challenge says it has to be a mobo?


If they want to play games and waste our time then they can do whatever they want.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: BillE on December 28, 2011, 01:50:37 PM
Quote from: dammy;673238
Wireless Amiga keyboard as an example and I don't mean a cheapo keyboard with boingballs glued to the window keys.


That means it will be an EXPENSIVE keyboard with boing-balls glued to the window keys.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 28, 2011, 03:21:21 PM
To be fair,  as long as it's expensive because it's good quality, and if the Amiga logos aren't just glued over the top of Windows buttons but are properly manufactured, I might be interested. But it would have to be a really good keyboard in itself, no way I would pay a big premium for an Amiga sticker.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 28, 2011, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: BillE;673248
That means it will be an EXPENSIVE keyboard with boing-balls glued to the window keys.


It's at dead cost, remember?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spihunter on December 28, 2011, 05:24:20 PM
Why don't we all do ourselves a favor and just let this fall off the front page and forget about it?. Nothing is ever going to come out of this. We have plenty of way cooler projects going on in the Amiga world to be bothered by these yo yo's.
Title: Maybe you should give your coupon back
Post by: ChuckT on December 28, 2011, 05:37:17 PM
Maybe you should give your coupon back:

Quote
States Bill McEwen, CEO/Pres, " We at Amiga are pleased to once again be par t of the great plans and products at Commodore USA. This is just the beginning of something great[Endquote]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/commodore-usa-appoints-korey-kay-102977849.html

I was reading this little part of the news article and it all became clear to me.  Are you ready for Amiga fiasco 2.0?  Maybe you should ask for repairs to your A1 equipment.  Ready for more 2 and a half year lawsuits?  Hahahahahhaha

We're Amiga haters alright.

I ask that the moderators seriously consider banning them.
Title: Re: Maybe you should give your coupon back
Post by: dammy on December 28, 2011, 07:42:38 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;673288
I ask that the moderators seriously consider banning them.


Who, the C=USA haters who keep spamming threads?
Title: Re: Maybe you should give your coupon back
Post by: ChuckT on December 28, 2011, 07:53:13 PM
Quote from: dammy;673300
Who, the C=USA haters who keep spamming threads?


Dammy,

How are you going to get Hyperion to work with CUSA if they are dealing with Amiga Inc?

I saw your username on http://www.commodore-amiga.org/ as a top poster.  Its okay if you want to deal with them.  The problem is, who is going to pay restitution to the rest of the Amiga users?  A lot of us have been waiting and waiting for things to be straightened out in the courts and they're back.

Its kind of like this.  My brother in law is still friends with a salesman who ripped off his sister cause he isn't a hater.  It doesn't matter if it is grand theft because he loves everybody and doesn't stick up for his family.  Is he a good guy?

Here is a proposal.  Amiga Inc. has six months to make things right with the Amiga community or else.  Is that a good deal?

Chuck
Title: Re: Maybe you should give your coupon back
Post by: dammy on December 28, 2011, 08:18:09 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;673301
Dammy,

How are you going to get Hyperion to work with CUSA if they are dealing with Amiga Inc?


It would have been the same as Hyperion working with ACube or A-EON on porting OS4 to those hardware platforms.

Quote
I saw your username on http://www.commodore-amiga.org/ as a top poster.  Its okay if you want to deal with them.  The problem is, who is going to pay restitution to the rest of the Amiga users?  A lot of us have been waiting and waiting for things to be straightened out in the courts and they're back.

Its kind of like this.  My brother in law is still friends with a salesman who ripped off his sister cause he isn't a hater.  It doesn't matter if it is grand theft because he loves everybody and doesn't stick up for his family.  Is he a good guy?

Here is a proposal.  Amiga Inc. has six months to make things right with the Amiga community or else.  Is that a good deal?

Chuck


Go talk to McBill, it's his call since he is in charge of Amiga Inc.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 28, 2011, 08:32:54 PM
Dammy,

I'll let Aeon, Acube, and others speak for themselves.  As someone who is business minded myself, I don't lend credit to whom credit is due.

As a user, I won't buy any Commodore USA products until this issue is resolved and I wouldn't trust a company that deals with Amiga Inc.  I believe that by being a good person, we can do business with other people but if they don't make good to everyone that was hurt here, I believe they would hurt me and you too.  They now have a public relations problem to fix and please let them know to do the right thing.

It is a reasonable request and if Amiga users cave then the problem will never be resolved.  The other issue is that sales people can't be dishonest and I find that computers distributed with missing chips was dishonest.

"August 30 Update - Eyetech is no longer making Amiga One boards of any kind. While there is a few (very few) boards being talked about on some message boards and web sites, these boards are old, were DOA, are missing processors etc.. We will not be selling these as it is not in the best interest of our customers. HOWEVER, we have heard a new company may be making a major announcement on new hardware that is OS 4 compliant."

Chuck
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: haywirepc on December 28, 2011, 10:23:53 PM
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/commodore-usa-appoints-korey-kay-102977849.html

Thats a great example of cusa BULL**** right there. (and remember how long ago this bull**** was released!)

30 million dollar advertising budget, and so far all they've done is post home made videos to youtube. Oh they bought a mention on the tron dvd too.
(Then they stole footage from tron legacy in one of their youtube promo videos)

I guess since they bought a mention on the dvd, so they think they can steal footage from disney if they want.

Now they want to steal your money to fund their latest scheme.
Hey, they spent 30 million on advertising guys, so they have no funds for research and development.

:roflmao:
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Rob on December 28, 2011, 10:46:26 PM
Quote from: dammy;673238
Wireless Amiga keyboard as an example and I don't mean a cheapo keyboard with boingballs glued to the window keys.


I thought they'd be a making Amiga keyboards anyway.  I'll buy one if it has the 'A' keys and the Commodore logo is easily removable.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 29, 2011, 01:03:57 AM
Quote from: Rob;673324
I thought they'd be a making Amiga keyboards anyway.  I'll buy one if it has the 'A' keys and the Commodore logo is easily removable.


I found permanent stick on labels sold at Amazon so everyone just needs Vice and about four dollars for labels.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: haywirepc on December 29, 2011, 02:25:31 AM
Thats a great idea.

I'm going to start commodore america now.

:)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: F1Lupo on December 29, 2011, 05:31:09 AM
Quote from: ChuckT;673308
...As a user, I won't buy any Commodore USA products until this issue is resolved and I wouldn't trust a company that deals with Amiga Inc....

Chuck

+ 1 and well said (especially the second part of the statement);)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: amigadave on December 29, 2011, 06:15:52 AM
Quote from: Rodomoc;673179
..... I think we need the original poster to say something more here.

It is a waste of time for the original poster to write more here, as there are the same few usual suspects that drown every thread that has any mention of CUSA with so much hate and crap that no sane discussion can take place.

I'm not saying that anything useful might happen, but it can't here with all the crap that is added to any thread that mentions CUSA.

I am quite sick of all of it and very tempted to click the "Ignore" button on every CUSA hater on this forum, just to be able to read threads without all of their crap all the time every day.  Their posts outnumber actual CUSA information about 100 to one.

Of course they will now attack me and say it is all CUSA's fault for using this site for their own free advertising site and they are Forced to post in retaliation.  It is all so very silly and childish.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: mingle on December 29, 2011, 06:22:51 AM
@amigadave

++1
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: OlafS3 on December 29, 2011, 11:16:57 AM
I do not want to start a new insulting thread but there are a lot of people in the community who do not trust Hyperion either and even hate them, so we should seperate feelings/emotions and business (and there are reasons to mistrust them too). For me it is the only question if there is a agreement possible that helps/benefits all parties "win-win" or not. I think the sales of their new "C64" are far below expectations so they want (perhaps) make it better with "Amiga". That is only one option, of course it can be a big cheat but if we do not take them seriously we will never find out. As I said CUSA is not the only company in amiga-business who made mistakes, we should make a new start now.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: swoslover on December 29, 2011, 11:33:51 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;673367
I think the sales of their new "C64" are far below expectations


Do you have a source for this or is it just speculation?

An idea like this although great in theory will be difficult to bring to fruition.

The communitry is too splintered.  Too much self interest and ego.

The people constantly trolling with these anti cusa posts are getting tiresome.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: tone007 on December 29, 2011, 11:37:15 AM
Quote from: swoslover;673370
The people constantly trolling with these anti cusa posts are getting tiresome.


It's OK, they won't be around much longer since CUSA won't!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: OlafS3 on December 29, 2011, 11:54:26 AM
it is my personal view. I read the comments/answers after the "News" about the new C64. Almost every comment was negative (price too high, specification too low). Even the most positive comments said that the design is interesting but just for "retro" too expensive. And CUSA did not talk very positive about the community (comments on Aros f.e.) and all of a sudden they start a "Community-project". So something must have changed their minds. But everyone is able to learn :-)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 29, 2011, 12:25:28 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;673308
As a user, I won't buy any Commodore USA products until this issue is resolved and I wouldn't trust a company that deals with Amiga Inc.  


You mean a company that deals with Amiga Inc, like Hyperion or Cloanto?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: eliyahu on December 29, 2011, 01:20:00 PM
@amigadave

+1

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: runequester on December 29, 2011, 02:12:19 PM
Quote from: dammy;673374
You mean a company that deals with Amiga Inc, like Hyperion or Cloanto?


Chance of dammy mentioning hyperion in any given post: 84%.

Chance of dammy having any interest in cusa other than riling up people and starting flamewars: 3%
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vox on December 29, 2011, 03:02:43 PM
Quote from: dammy;673374
You mean a company that deals with Amiga Inc, like Hyperion or Cloanto?


Currently Hyperion and Cloanto are completely independent from Amiga Inc, Cloanto as far older company, and Hyperion as older company that won AmigaOS in court case.

Contrary, CUSA is Amiga Inc licencee that either has funded Amiga Inc or will fund it with each CommodoreUSA "Amiga" sold.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Tripitaka on December 29, 2011, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: swoslover;673370

The people constantly trolling with these cusa posts are getting tiresome.


Fixed that for ya' buddy. ;)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: dammy on December 29, 2011, 04:34:44 PM
Quote from: vox;673383
Currently Hyperion and Cloanto are completely independent from Amiga Inc, Cloanto as far older company, and Hyperion as older company that won AmigaOS in court case.


Sorry, you are wrong.  Hyperion did not win anything in a court case, there was a settlement between AI and Hyperion but the judge did not rule for Hyperion.  Hyperion and Cloanto are both dependent on Amiga Inc for several items.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: ChuckT on December 29, 2011, 04:46:06 PM
Quote from: amigadave;673353
Of course they will now attack me and say it is all CUSA's fault for using this site for their own free advertising site and they are Forced to post in retaliation.  It is all so very silly and childish.


Dave,

I'll pretty much stop unless I hear about more lawsuits and customers being ripped off.

The original Commodore ripped off my college by taking money on a side car and not delivering it the department head who handled it knew Commodore was going out of business and he told me that Commodore wasn't going anywhere business wise and if I wanted a job, you have to learn on an IBM.

My brother in law worked with a guy who bought two Commodore 128's and they both blew smoke in his living room when he plugged them in.

The problem is that even though I grew up on Commodore and I liked them, if you don't have respectable business practices then Amiga will never ever be taken seriously.  There is a difference between having a website to just be in the business or being into R&D and delivering to the customer because you are in the business.  Until they have low prices to compete with Dell, I don't think Amiga will ever be seriously considered.  When you have water cooling for an overclocked Amiga then maybe you have something.

Chuck
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: takemehomegrandma on December 29, 2011, 05:22:07 PM
Quote from: vox;673383
Currently Hyperion ... are completely independent from Amiga Inc, ...  Hyperion as older company that won AmigaOS in court case.


1. Hyperion *has not* won anything in a court case.
2. Hyperion *does not* own Amiga OS.
3. Hyperion *is not* completely independent from Amiga Inc.

Get your facts straight...

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Fats on December 30, 2011, 02:51:08 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;673426
1. Hyperion *has not* won anything in a court case.


OK, let put it differently. Hyperion is happy with outcome of last court case, Amiga Inc. less so. AFAIK Hyperion is still allowed to sell OS4 and no licensing money is flowing from Hyperion to Amiga Inc. Don't think that was the outcome Amiga Inc. wanted.

greets,
Staf.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 30, 2011, 04:15:13 PM
Quote from: dammy;673405
Sorry, you are wrong.  Hyperion did not win anything in a court case, there was a settlement between AI and Hyperion but the judge did not rule for Hyperion.  Hyperion and Cloanto are both dependent on Amiga Inc for several items.


The kickstart roms for Cloanto, although since those days it turns out Amiga Inc have no legal claim to the Kickstart IP :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 30, 2011, 04:16:08 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;673426
1. Hyperion *has not* won anything in a court case.
2. Hyperion *does not* own Amiga OS.
3. Hyperion *is not* completely independent from Amiga Inc.

Get your facts straight...

:rolleyes:


They only own Amiga OS 4.x that's it. They can never make Amiga OS 5 or later as far as I understood it.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 30, 2011, 04:25:09 PM
Quote from: amigadave;673353
It is a waste of time for the original poster to write more here, as there are the same few usual suspects that drown every thread that has any mention of CUSA with so much hate and crap that no sane discussion can take place.

I'm not saying that anything useful might happen, but it can't here with all the crap that is added to any thread that mentions CUSA.

I am quite sick of all of it and very tempted to click the "Ignore" button on every CUSA hater on this forum, just to be able to read threads without all of their crap all the time every day.  Their posts outnumber actual CUSA information about 100 to one.

Of course they will now attack me and say it is all CUSA's fault for using this site for their own free advertising site and they are Forced to post in retaliation.  It is all so very silly and childish.


How is that different to real life. Every new model of Mercedes/Audi/BMW is publicly ridiculed by the competitor. It's no different here. When Commodore USA make the equivalent of a BMW M3 we will have no way to ridicule a product which is so good people buy it despite who it is manufactured by.

If the C64x was better/cheaper it could have made a big difference. The rest of their line up is either a PC with a sticker on it with even worse value for money OR a secret project we all have to fund upfront via 500 sales held in escrow.

Their reputation and treatment here is a direct correlation with the childlike CEO rants and raves and their overpriced/underwhelming products and ideas to date.

Posting here to basically to say "sorry we haven't got a clue what to do with the Amiga name because we are not intelligent enough so please give us a product idea on a plate and pay up front" is never going to help them.

If I come up with the winning idea for what is produced I want my 15% of total gross sales for my efforts.....and that's if I wanted to deal with someone like BS Altman to be honest (which I don't).
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Bishop077 on December 30, 2011, 05:10:19 PM
I want to see a Laptop.....

I honestly don't care if its PPC, X86, Old Amiga hardware, or a hamster with an abacus....

I would love CommodoreUSA, MorphOS, Hyperion, Cloanto, or Natami pick a laptop that is commonly found on the market write drivers for it and let me boot Directly into an Amiga (or Amiga like) OS, and have all the parts work for once.

We've seen the laptop conversion mods, etc... But I'm not that handy with a scroll saw.

Can this all be done by the hobbist.... sure... customize a Linux distro that boots into UAE... Ya got it... All the driver support in the world... Yup, but not my point....

If CUSA wants to do something cool, take the design of an Amiga 500 and make a laptop. That is what I want to see... Even if its just CommodoreOS with UAE.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: spirantho on December 30, 2011, 05:47:06 PM
@Bishop077

That's a handy thing to wish given that's exactly what Hyperion are doing!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Bishop077 on December 30, 2011, 06:40:45 PM
Quote from: spirantho;673646
@Bishop077

That's a handy thing to wish given that's exactly what Hyperion are doing!

Yeah I read an article on them using a LimePC or something a little while ago.... (brb have to re-google it)...

Ah yes, end of 1st Qtr 2012.  I do like this idea and I will buy one if they find a new "Mr. Hardware Computers" that I can get one though... :D They should probably update the vendor section of their website.. I'm sure someone in America sells their products.... I digress...

Thanks for the news.. I still think if CUSA wants a challenge they should make a C64 or Amiga 500 looking laptop. I'd probably by that too just for the case (if it didn't melt...)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Akiko on December 30, 2011, 07:05:36 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;673621
They only own Amiga OS 4.x that's it. They can never make Amiga OS 5 or later as far as I understood it.

Actually Hyperion have exclusive rights to the AmigaOS name, including all subsequent versions including OS5 and beyond. The agreement with Hyperion, Ainc have effetely signed over AmigaOS for good, they can't ever licence the AmigaOS name to any third party companies like Commodore USA,  and I doubt they receive any royalties from current sales of OS4.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Kronos on December 30, 2011, 07:27:25 PM
@Bishop077
Well, just hop over to eBay, invest 150-400$ in a PowerBook 5.6 to 5.9 and wait "2 more weeks".

You'll end up with a computer thats fully useable Amiga-style and has enough power for everyday use (which simple isn't treu for anything based on a 400MHz 603-core).
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Bishop077 on December 30, 2011, 08:15:27 PM
The sad thing is I did that. I wanted to have a dedicated system to use in order to re-launch my old Cnet BBS....  

Since I am not a MAC fanboy It sits here as a paperweight.  I'll sooner or later do what I said in an earlier post. I'll probably install a Linux Distro, and have it launch UAE and call it good from there....

Lovely and True Sig BTW.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: takemehomegrandma on December 31, 2011, 09:30:46 AM
Quote from: Fats;673600
OK, let put it differently. Hyperion is happy with outcome of last court case, Amiga Inc. less so. AFAIK Hyperion is still allowed to sell OS4 and no licensing money is flowing from Hyperion to Amiga Inc. Don't think that was the outcome Amiga Inc. wanted.


True, this is not what *any* IP owner would have wanted, and this is why I think the deal will be challenged as soon as (if) some new entity takes over Amiga Inc or its IP.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: takemehomegrandma on December 31, 2011, 09:39:38 AM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;673621
They only own Amiga OS 4.x that's it.


Exactly, or more specifically, they only own the "OS4 additions" to Amiga OS, and that Amiga OS *is still owned* by Amiga Inc, and without it there can be no OS4! So again – Hyperion *did not* win anything, they *don't* own Amiga OS, and they *are not* independent of Amiga Inc.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Amiga_Nut on December 31, 2011, 12:43:13 PM
Quote from: Bishop077;673629
I want to see a Laptop.....

I honestly don't care if its PPC, X86, Old Amiga hardware, or a hamster with an abacus....

I would love CommodoreUSA, MorphOS, Hyperion, Cloanto, or Natami pick a laptop that is commonly found on the market write drivers for it and let me boot Directly into an Amiga (or Amiga like) OS, and have all the parts work for once.

We've seen the laptop conversion mods, etc... But I'm not that handy with a scroll saw.

Can this all be done by the hobbist.... sure... customize a Linux distro that boots into UAE... Ya got it... All the driver support in the world... Yup, but not my point....

If CUSA wants to do something cool, take the design of an Amiga 500 and make a laptop. That is what I want to see... Even if its just CommodoreOS with UAE.


100% Amithlon compatible PC laptop? There must be one somewhere in the world way back in the distant past of 2000-2011 no?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: SysAdmin on January 21, 2012, 11:51:56 AM
:bump:
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: rayman on January 28, 2012, 08:16:22 AM
Hi,
I dont know anything about cusa.  Didnt even know there was such an animal.  A new machine would be nice.  I dont know why it hasnt been done as yet.  There are lots of clever people about why hasnt it been done yet.

I bought qnx awhile back because someone said it was going to be an amiga os that would run native on a meanie(IBM).  Well I never tried it out but am hanging fire on OE c64 c128 and of course everyones favorite the amiga.

I agree that it cant be a pc and in fact it shouldnt be intel at all.  Wrong chip and wrong mongrelization.  Needs to be the fastest motorola chip Job's used in a mac, 68k or ppc.  I also agree that it should use lots of flash memory.  I also think we shouldnt try to shoe horn the kitchen sink into it.  It should be the zippiest and freshest piece of hardware using the old architecture.  I call it distributive hardware like it was in the old days.  Display had its own ram and was mostly separate.  Cpu had its ram and did what it did mostly alone.  But we need to do it better.  A display in  its own separate world.  All it does is display.  No help from the cpu.  I/O should be in dual mode like a fifo on steroids.  Real print and forget.  Real download while doing other things.  Should also be able to stream video on the fly without bufftering.  Download, display and save all at the same time.  Also should be an airtight net machine that cant be hacked because like in the old days all os was in rom and ram was zeroed out  This can be done now with what motorola has on the shelves while we await their next breakthrough.  Lets give them a kick.

Some clever boots can bread board this right now.  Some other clever boots can cobble up the migaware to make it work.

Jobs made apple in his garage.  Lets do the same with the next amiga.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Duce on January 28, 2012, 08:21:21 AM
Already being done by the Natami and FPGArcade guys.

As grassroots as you're going to get, I'm waiting patiently on the FPGAarcade with daughterboard option to run my BBS.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Tripitaka on January 28, 2012, 12:43:06 PM
Quote from: Transition;676808
:bump:


Why do you keep bumping CUSA threads? Are they paying you or something?
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: SysAdmin on January 28, 2012, 01:05:39 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;677855
Why do you keep bumping CUSA threads? Are they paying you or something?


Nope
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: weirdami on January 28, 2012, 01:59:08 PM
I feel like an administrator type could make a thread sticky if it was important enough to bumpify.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Haranguer on January 28, 2012, 03:41:42 PM
Quote from: dammy;673047
Pretty sad that the online Amiga Community can't get a quick 500 people together on a single project to support.


Oh, but we can.  Heard of the FPGA Arcade board?  That'd get 500 easily.

But I can't see CUSA having anything to do with it, and I can't see 500 people wanting to buy it from CUSA if they did.

I'm even more excited about the Arcade board than I am about the X1000, and I'm excited about the X1000.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Darrin on January 28, 2012, 04:07:53 PM
Quote from: Haranguer;677889
Oh, but we can.  Heard of the FPGA Arcade board?  That'd get 500 easily.


...and MikeJ didn't ask anybody to pay for them in advance either.

Amazing, isn't it.  :)
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Tripitaka on January 28, 2012, 04:15:10 PM
Quote from: Darrin;677895
...and MikeJ didn't ask anybody to pay for them in advance either.

Amazing, isn't it.  :)


Plenty of Amigans have got burnt hands from things like "vouchers", so I agree with Darrin. It's a pretty big thing to ask cash in advance. That requires trust.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vox on January 28, 2012, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;673091
And that of course, is the golden question.

Honestly Dammy, the best thing CUSA could do now is sell on the Amiga name to Hyperion and make Commodore PCs to their hearts content. At least that would save them some hate mail.


This is true. If CUSA kept it to the Commodore 64x and Commodore PCs with no Amiga mention, bet people here would be far more supporative or neutral.

Quote
, I have come to believe the Amiga line-up maybe should be split into two parts - a Classic Amiga (to please all retro fans) and a new x86 futuristic-looking Amiga PC either with native AmigaOS functionality built-in to the kernel for the mainstream market


This was early Middle man post. Generally this is true, where Classic oriented projects like AROS 68k, AmiKit, AmigaForever and Natami go for first option and second is AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS just on PPC not on x86.

In these terms, CUSA ideas fall nowhere and try to reinvent the existing wheel, while pretending there are no either 1) or 2) lines existing, and that is what offends people much.

Stick to the truth - sell CommodoreUSA Computer 2011 or similar UltraGiga
and that is not an offense to anyone. State in the history you are new company that has drawn licence to make Commodore (or Amiga Classic) look a likes, with emulation software, that are generaly, same good PCs.
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: Darrin on January 28, 2012, 04:29:08 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;677900
Plenty of Amigans have got burnt hands from things like "vouchers", so I agree with Darrin. It's a pretty big thing to ask cash in advance. That requires trust.


Yep, I still have my Amiga $50 coupon (well, I don't actually have the physical coupon, but I did eventually get the t-shirt), so paying in advance (especially when you have a company noted for posting fake manufacturing photographs) doesn't really appeal to me.

The last couple of "large" Amiga hardware purchases I made were the Chameleon64 and the FPGA Arcade, both of which were paid for when the product was ready to ship.  I've pre-ordered a X1000, but I haven't even had to pay a deposit on that even though it is several grand.  It seems to me that certain people in the Amiga community are resourceful enough to design and manufacture hardware on limited resources without having to put their hands in other people's pockets.  However, we have another company which is supposed to have millions in advertising budgets alone than seems to have to vision, no focus (no manufacturing of its own?) and wants us to raid the piggy-bank before it even heads to the drawing board?  Something just doesn't seem right.

Plus, assuming I stood up and said that I'd collect the down payments for the agreed hardware then how exactly would that work?  Due to fluctuating exchange rates we would need to collect the agreed amount in a single currency (say Dollars) so everyone outside of the US would also need to pay an exchange fee.  Then, what happens if the project is cancelled or people ask for refunds?  Who pays the additional reverse exchange fee to send the money back?  I bet it won't be C-USA.  What if you get 500 orders, but by the time of delivery 100 people drop out.  Do the remaining 400 have to pay the additional amount owed by the 100 who left, or will the person holding the money be responsible?  Considering the timeline for designing and building new hardware (and not just taking a x86 mobo off the shelf or rebadging someone else's PC and putting a C-USA sticker on it) I can easily 10 of the 500 pre-payers dying of old age before they receive anything!
Title: Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Post by: vox on January 28, 2012, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;673752
Exactly, or more specifically, they only own the "OS4 additions" to Amiga OS, and that Amiga OS *is still owned* by Amiga Inc, and without it there can be no OS4! So again – Hyperion *did not* win anything, they *don't* own Amiga OS, and they *are not* independent of Amiga Inc.


While I agree with your signature (MOS is AmigaOS done right, or done better) this is quite untrue.

Hyperion is independent company from Amiga Inc. and always was. There are no OS 4 additions, but as you know since the recompile and lot of changes, it is considered to be a new version of OS. So yes, Amiga Inc owns AmigaOS 3.1 and Hyperion owns OS 4.1. When we take away emulation purposes, Hyperion owns AmigaOS as something to be developed.

AmigaOS 3.1 was not developed by AmigaInc they just own it as asset of transfers, so there is no direct relevance here either.

Hyperion got a settlement, where AmigaOS belongs to them and Amiga name can be rented (licenced) by Amiga Inc. Direct result of the second is CUSA, which owns its Amiga line existance and Commodore Amiga forum to Amiga Inc licence (in this terms CUSA Amiga line is dependent on Amiga Inc licence) but as we see Amiga Inc will sell the name unlimitedly (as with ICoin).