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Author Topic: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews  (Read 3548 times)

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Offline JoannaK

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Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #29 from previous page: March 29, 2006, 06:28:50 AM »
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2006, 11:23:44 AM »
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itix:  True and false. Selling an OS product in x86 world is extremely difficult when it is saturated by good, efficient and free OS choices. You get compared to OS'es with better driver and hardware support.

Linux is free.  I don't use it.  Why?  Because I hate how it works.  Again, the OS is judged by its features.  The hardware only matters if it has special features, and AmigaOne doesn't have anything on even a budget x86 board.  Neither does PowerVixxen or whatevertheotherboardiscalled.

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Bloodline:  Something I rather like is that Piracy is cited as a method that will "kill" AOS4... I really fail to understand how people using an OS kills it... since the sucess of an OS is defined by the number of users!!!!

I seem to recall a lot of people blame piracy for killing the original Amiga, as if Commodore's inability to properly update the chipset had nothing to do with it.

Fun fact:  I have originals for all my favorite Amiga games, but I have the cracked versions, anyway.  Why?  Copy protection on the Amiga has to be the most aggressive I've ever seen on any platform, to the point where A500 games didn't always run on an A500 (not to mention the fact that floppies sucked, so making copies was pretty much mandatory).  The horrible copy protection is what made the Amiga piracy scene so popular to begin with, in my opinion.  Copy protection shouldn't really be that aggressive, because these days it's only effective on people that are too lazy to do a few google searches.  :roll:

Look up "Starforce".  *shudder*  Oh yeah, let's all have low-level drivers installed as background services on our computers, and have a different one for each game.  Blue Screens of Death waiting to happen, and they'll run even when the game isn't!  Will that thwart piracy?  It'll probably just make both legal and illegal users mad, but take a guess as to which of those two groups will be hurt more.

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wonea:  Port to a pc architecture, support ONLY mainstream quality components say Intel boards only, Radeon graphic cards, soundblaster, etc. I'd be very very happy with this.

I'd have no problem buying one of, say, three or four boards (rather than one chipset spanning several dozen boards).  I just won't pay $800 for it if it can't beat my current P4 setup, which is worth about $180.

Value is important to the whole world.  Why Amiga companies think this rule doesn't apply to them is beyond me, especially if they really want to go beyond the hobby market.  Even Apple could not sell computers this way, and you know how extrememly loyal Mac users are.  Hell, look how much Mac people complained after the x86 announcement.  There were hardly people setting fires to cars and throwing bottles on the streets.

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Floid:   As much as x86 makes all sorts of sense financially (and perhaps even thermally, these days), I don't see it making a lot of sense technically, especially after the horrendous investment made to actually Do Neat Things on PowerPC.

What neat things?

Porting to different CPUs requires developers to look for a baseline of commonality, and develop abstraction layers as appropriate.  There's no need to hard-code for VMX (IBM's version of Altivenc).  I think Hyperion is being stubborn about this either to save themselves some work (ie, from actually doing it properly), or they just don't have enough experience outside the 68K and PPC communities to really know what they have to do.  This kind of development would be unacceptable in the "real" OS market, and will probably give Hyperions some major problems down the road.  I see this all the time when tryint to get UNIX Perl scripts to work on Windows.  Most of the time, the UNIX-specific features are completely unnecessary, but people use them anyway because they don't know better, and that makes it tough to get them working on Windows servers.  When I write scripts, they work perfectly on IIS or Apache, on either Windows or Linux, because I'm familiar with both types of servers.  In the long run, that makes things much, much easier for everyone, and reduces a lot of unexpected behavior.

Always keep your options open.  Hardware is a very unpredictable market.

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JoannaK:  Opensourcing is out, cause Hyperion don't *own* rights to old 3.X code and they have publicly admitted using it while making 4.0 ... So they are forever stuck to whoever happens to own 3.X rights ..

That's the other major problem with AmigaOS.  Too many different companies claim ownership over certain parts.  If everything were to go bust tomorrow, it's hard to say how long it would take to unify all the properties, legally.

I do a lot of refactoring, and no matter what, there comes a time when you really need to start over from scratch.  If Hyperion has something in mind for OS5, let's hope they survive long enough to actually work on it.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2006, 01:15:17 PM »
Gee, all this talk of supporting cheap hardware and porting to platform xyz...

...
makes me think
...

maybe they current Amiga owners have it right with the Amiga Anywhere virtual machine philosophy!

...AND...

you've all been to blind to accept it!

:flame:
 

Offline Lando

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Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2006, 02:11:40 PM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Gee, all this talk of supporting cheap hardware and porting to platform xyz...

...
makes me think
...

maybe they current Amiga owners have it right with the Amiga Anywhere virtual machine philosophy!

...AND...

you've all been to blind to accept it!

:flame:


AmigaDE was simply useless.  It served no purpose.  I don't see what this has to do with AmigaOS porting?  AmigaDE was a bunch of API extensions for TAO Intent.  As far as I can tell their main use was for drawing alpha-blended rectangles on a Windows desktop.

Five years of AmigaDE's existence and there currently exists 13 titles at ShopAmiga.com, the vast majority of which barely on a par with an Amiga 500 PD game circa 1988.  There seems to be about 1 new title a year.

And if it's 'run the same binary anywhere' why do you have to choose between a separate Pocket PC and Windows Mobile Smartphone versions when you download Casino?  And why does gobbler have separate versions for Pocket PC and Windows? And why do most of the other say that they only work on Pocket PC?

Surely if you download a supposedly _portable_ 'AmigaAnywhere' binary, you simply take the memory card out of your pocket PC PDA and plug it into your Windows laptop or Symbian phone, or Windows Mobile Smartphone and carry on playing?  Apparently not.

Amnyway, people still want to use AmigaOS.  I haven't seen *any* posts asking about progress on AmigaDE - in contrast to the hundreds of threads or forum posts asking about OS4 progress / release date.
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2006, 02:11:50 PM »
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maybe they current Amiga owners have it right with the Amiga Anywhere virtual machine philosophy!

The virtual machine philosophy is flawed.  It's more like having an OS on an OS, and as Java has shown, version control is a huge problem.  Virtual processing is a better way of thinking, but there's less opportunity to "lock in" the end-user.

Also, there's too much emphasis on making VP code work everywhere.  Some people just want to use special features of hardware.  Whether a program is universal, it isn't at all, or simply uses optimizations for a specific platform, should be entirely up to the programmer.  Forcing universal compatibility doesn't really work, especially on proprietary embedded devices where features differ considerably.  No wonder there's so many cheezy puzzle games for AA.

I was very interested in DE when it was announced, and bought the SDK, but it's obviously going nowhere at this point.  That's a real shame.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2006, 06:20:31 PM »
Even though the implimentation maybe bad, the ideal is a good one.  Fine, let's just all support AROS as it seems to have the potential everyone is looking for.

Why not define a new Amiga reference platform?  To heck with backwards compatibility, we have UAE for that.  Why do people still expect software written 20 years ago to work today on modern and completely different hardware?

The look & feel of AOS is what people appreciate.  Who cares what hardware is behind it?  What is an OS?  Is it a kernal?  Is it a filesystem?  Is it a gui filemanager?  The only thing I see the Amiga doing today that Windows still doesn't is screen dragging.  It's not that Windows can't be programmed to do so, it's just what's the point really.  Not much use these days.

Hardware is a cheap comodity, look & feel is what matters to most.
 

Offline Floid

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Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2006, 02:32:05 PM »
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Waccoon wrote:

Linux is free.  I don't use it.  Why?  Because I hate how it works.  Again, the OS is judged by its features.


You should suck it up and try Ubuntu sometime; I've finally found something as decent as OS/2 from a user's standpoint.  Once Xgl and its ilk properly appears (is that slated for 6.4?), some rather interesting "features" will be there.

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Floid:   As much as x86 makes all sorts of sense financially (and perhaps even thermally, these days), I don't see it making a lot of sense technically, especially after the horrendous investment made to actually Do Neat Things on PowerPC.

What neat things?

Petunia, which may be of limited utility due to the 'small' library of RTG software, but still plays a role in keeping continuity and satisfying what real legacy users remain...

Per Álmos, "Changing to other type of processor which is not PowerPC machine code compatible is pointless and almost impossible, because all the emulation code were made of PowerPC assembly and tied closely to this architecture."

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There's no need to hard-code for VMX (IBM's version of Altivenc).


...Unless you've got a fairly complicated chunk of platform-emulation code that needs to 'compete' on performance with whatever MorphOS has got.  Of course, you could always ditch it...

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I think Hyperion is being stubborn about this either to save themselves some work (ie, from actually doing it properly), or they just don't have enough experience outside the 68K and PPC communities to really know what they have to do.  This kind of development would be unacceptable in the "real" OS market, and will probably give Hyperions some major problems down the road.


I think you've missed something; everything points to OS4 being pretty portable, but PowerPC has been the main target for all the obvious reasons (presumed better 68k emulation performance, the fact that hardware was supposed to be available)...  Still, with the PowerPC version wrapped up and running, I imagine it'd be cheaper and more profitable to go out and design some PPC hardware and sell it 'immediately' than to shelf everything and declare x86 the new standard just in time to delay things even longer.
 

Offline dammy

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Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2006, 03:27:12 PM »
Problems are:

1. New hardware would still need to be licensed by Amiga Inc and as such, someone needs to cough up alot of cash up front.
2. Front loading the costs of R&D and then production means someone is going to cough up a lot of money.
3. Performance of previous sales of the A1s show there is no significant market to recoup licensing, R&D and production costs.

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Opinions on AmigaOS4 from OSNews
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2006, 01:59:00 PM »
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Floid wrote:

Still, with the PowerPC version wrapped up and running, I imagine it'd be cheaper and more profitable to go out and design some PPC hardware and sell it 'immediately' than to shelf everything and declare x86 the new standard just in time to delay things even longer.


That makes no sense!! you basicly just said it's easier to fix something in hardware than it is in software!

Which do you think is easier and cheaper?

1) Get a standard PC, any PC, no special requirements... just get the cheapest POS from Dell. Write a new HAL, just use parts of AROS, change a compiler option... hit enter. Spend a couple of weeks getting AOS4 to compile.. sell.

2) Choose a memory controller chip that is compatible with one of the current PPC compatible chips... the 7447 looks like a good option. Design a Motherboard around this memory controller, run out a detailed spec of the components you want to use,do some prototyping. Spend the next few weeks reworking and making a few more prototypes. Once that works, get an FCC licence... go back to the design rework it to meet the FCC... run a few more prototypes, and work out a few more bugs, ensure that the suppliers can meet the quantities you need at the specification for all the components you use. If not, go back to the design stage and rework it... more prototypes... once that's done. Find a manufacturer that will be able to meet your order within a resonable timeframe, at a price which you can still sell and make a profit... rewrite the AOS4 HAL to usethe new memory controller... spend a week or so getting it to work... sell.