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Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #134 from previous page: May 01, 2008, 02:44:52 PM »
@stefcep2

But I suppose you are comparing the A4000 to a more recent PC with a more recent motherboard.  Even if you don't, I suppose that the difference of processing power may only be explained by Motorola's or the graphic card's slower processor, which too are a consequence of the PC being in favour with the public, as it has been delaying the Amiga's inheritances and slowing down the hardware's improvements since the late 80s.  And last but not least, as you say it, PC software was better coded, as it was coded for the most powerful setups while Amiga software (especially games) was usually coded for the least powerful setup, which again was a consequence of the public's favour and in turn fueled the hardware factor.  But originally, this favour was independant of processing power.
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2008, 04:03:22 PM »
I just don't get how some people are so passionate about this argument.  I mean look how long this thread is, about something that is very subjective and personal and not easily quantified.  Also I don't understand why they care.

Emulation is a great thing, at least I think so, but I would not give up all my real Amigas and only use emulation until they all die from old age.  And with the invention of the CloneA project, it will likely be true that some day, brand new hardware will be available that is a cycle exact duplicate reproduction of any model Amiga you want.

As we all know the MiniMig already is available as a close hardware recreation of an OCS A500/A1000 and may soon be able to emulate ECS as well. And with NatAmi and other potential new projects, we may have a new AmigaLike computer that is better than any original Amiga model ever produced.

It is all good!  I see a future where the Amiga experience will continue indefinitely in one manner or another, long after the last original Amiga computers stop working.

Truly "Amiga Forever"!
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline Damion

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2008, 04:30:45 PM »
Quote

Hammer wrote:
 :-)
Quote

-D- wrote:
Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
If I understand well, such an interpolation is usefeul in films or wholly moving screens because it suppresses the "pauses" that occur when a frame is repeated.

But if it only adds frames it can't improve 2D animation, especially for objects that moves on the screen without changing shape, because in it motion must be regular. Every added frame will just slow animation down instead of stopping it, so instead of getting jerky animation you will just get wavy animation : it won't make the motion regular. In order to reproduce 2D animation accurately on a different refresh rate, you would need to redraw every frame to make it correspond to what the eye would see at the same moment if the display's frame rate was right..

The whole point about "motion interpolation" is to avoid judder issues e.g. playing 24FPS video on 60hz/120hz display.


Actually, the point is to reduce judder, nothing eliminates it entirely. You'll notice film aficionados generally prefer certain scaling techniques over others for this exact reason. From your wiki link:

Quote
According to CNET.com executive editor David Carnoy, with Sony's MotionFlow objects look more stable when the feature is turned on. This is sometimes accompanied by a glitch in the picture.[1] Not everyone likes the effect and some complain that it gives film a "video" look.[6]


Ermm, it’s a Sony....

This is not Philips Trimension middleware.
http://www.trimension.philips.com/

"Philips Trimension software for PCs ensures stunning image quality − even on the biggest, most demanding HD flat screens. No judder, no artifacts, just superb images and razor sharp video."

WinDVD7 is shipped with Philips TrimensionDNM middleware.

According to http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1449/smooth-operator.html


"To eliminate judder, Trimension calculates enough interpolated frames between the actual frames recorded on a DVD to be able to show them all at 60 fps. Good frame interpolation is a technically difficult and sophisticated process, and it's impressive that Trimension runs smoothly on a PC (a 2.8-GHz Pentium 4, at minimum)."


Not a problem with today's multi-core CPUs and video accelerators. Brute force computation performance can be applied at this problem.


"Smooth is also the word to describe the results. Old or new, B&W or color, animated or live action — if the original film was made at 24 fps, Trimension makes nearly all moving objects cross the screen with an almost surrealistic smoothness. While images containing no motion look precisely the same with the system on or off, it takes only a very slight movement — a turn of a head, the raising of a hand, a single step — to make the image look more lifelike than normal film. The effect is so pronounced that the latest version of WinDVD, v.7, includes a toned-down mode that introduces an even-rhythm, cinema-like judder ("2:2 pulldown")."


Latest WinDVD is at 9th release.


Nice (I think it looks OK), but quoting from the marketing literature doesn't change the fact that the process isn't 100% flawless, do some research around the video forums. Losing the "film-like" look of the video is a common complaint with Trimension, as are artifacts (like halos) in certain situations. By its nature, scaling/processing modifies the video content in some way or another, so far there is no method that everyone is happy with. That's why the wiki article (which mentions Trimension) sez "reduces", and not "eliminates". Might be a better argument to compare dedicated image processing hardware anyway, an $80 copy of WinDVD hardly compares to multi thousand dollar scaling hardware.

Anyhow... regardless, you can't use it to play Superfrog via WinUAE. :-) The video you posted (while not terrible) absolutely isn't showing flawless scrolling, but as I said above, most people would be content with it. It would be better to just record it at 60Hz (if it works without glitches at 60Hz, or find an NTSC version if one exists). Fire up some Slamtilt at 60Hz, with your emulator configured for PAL/50 FPS and let me know how smooth it looks. ;)

--edit-- BTW, Just thought I'd add Trimension software decoder doesn't even require "today's multi-core CPUs", requirements are a P4 and 256 MB RAM.
 

Offline amigaksi

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2008, 07:02:44 AM »
>...I mean look how long this thread is, about something that is very subjective and personal and not easily quantified...

True in many cases, but some things are not just limited experience of someone but logical deductions or common sense.  I mean if you know the Amiga hardware and the target platform hardware, you can draw certain conclusions without ever having to run an emulator (like in my case).  Processing speed is just one aspect of the computer.  Peripheral I/O speed, timing accuracy, type of ports, etc.  If you wanted to control some external device with parallel signals, obviously an Amiga with a parallel port cannot be emulated (in software) with a machine without a parallel port but only USB, SATA, or other serial-based I/O.
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2008, 08:43:25 AM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
@stefcep2

But I suppose you are comparing the A4000 to a more recent PC with a more recent motherboard.  Even if you don't, I suppose that the difference of processing power may only be explained by Motorola's or the graphic card's slower processor, which too are a consequence of the PC being in favour with the public, as it has been delaying the Amiga's inheritances and slowing down the hardware's improvements since the late 80s.  .


Not really.  The classic Amiga graphics software such as DPaint, Brilliance, functioned differently to the "24 bit in a window" packages such as Photogenics and Art Effect.  Brilliance could work in 24 bit but the way it went about things was very different.  Those 24bit in a window programs were trying to imitate the Photoshop way of working, with the use of layers: this type of graphics software didn't originate on the Amiga.

Similarly the 3D first person shooters such as AB3D and Gloom where attempts to copy what the PC was doing with Doom.

I wonder: was there any plan for Amiga to have a native chunky 24 bit display:  does anyone know how AAA would have worked?
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2008, 08:57:06 AM »
Quote




But that isn't how it works...

The software, UAE, actually pretends to be the hardware... there is no re-targeting of calls (except in the RTG emulation)... the Amiga display is built entirely in software and then simply displayed via the host OS.


I am not sure I understand the difference:  At the end of the day, the host's hardware has to display the images that are created by the software.  Access to the host hardware has to go through some sort of API on the host OS eg DirectX.  How accurate the end display is will depend on how well and how quickly the emulator can recreate the images and how well and quickly the host OS and hardware can display this recreated image.  The emulator is one bottle neck, and the OS and hardware are another.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #140 on: May 02, 2008, 10:30:43 AM »
@stefcep2

Quote
Not really. The classic Amiga graphics software such as DPaint, Brilliance, functioned differently to the "24 bit in a window" packages such as Photogenics and Art Effect. Brilliance could work in 24 bit but the way it went about things was very different. Those 24bit in a window programs were trying to imitate the Photoshop way of working, with the use of layers: this type of graphics software didn't originate on the Amiga.

Similarly the 3D first person shooters such as AB3D and Gloom where attempts to copy what the PC was doing with Doom.


I'm not denying that some of these programs have imitated PC programs.  You said that "the PC's processing speed and superior graphics display speed made all the difference" : what I mean is that these software were born on the PC because of the latter's popular favour rather than any power advantage.  Favour is also the reason why similar concepts were not developed on the Amiga at the same time : from that point of view there was no imitation, just delay.  As software quality has influenced success hence hardware development, eventually this favour also led to hardware advantage.  But originally this mighty favour was only driven by psychology and marketing : it was not justified by any power advantage, except to my knowledge the small advantage Intel had over Motorolla processors.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2008, 11:20:18 AM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
@stefcep2

Quote
Not really. The classic Amiga graphics software such as DPaint, Brilliance, functioned differently to the "24 bit in a window" packages such as Photogenics and Art Effect. Brilliance could work in 24 bit but the way it went about things was very different. Those 24bit in a window programs were trying to imitate the Photoshop way of working, with the use of layers: this type of graphics software didn't originate on the Amiga.

Similarly the 3D first person shooters such as AB3D and Gloom where attempts to copy what the PC was doing with Doom.


I'm not denying that some of these programs have imitated PC programs. You said that "the PC's processing speed and superior graphics display speed made all the difference" : what I mean is that these software were born on the PC because of the latter's popular favour rather than any power advantage.  Favour is also the reason why similar concepts were not developed on the Amiga at the same time : from that point of view there was no imitation, just delay.  


The Amiga was developed with planar graphics, as due to high memory prices in the early to mid 80s, it made sense to allow programmers to chose their colour depth and make a trade off between graphical quality and memory usage.

But the time PCs started to use bit mapped graphics, the late 80s and early 90s, memory prices were much lower and more CPU friendly (ie faster) packed pixel format was used. When people wanted to move beyond 256 colours, palette based gfx were no longer practical... and the chunky pixel formats could easily hold the colour component data within the actual pixel itself.

The Amiga was stuck with the graphics system that made great sense in the mid 80s... but really kinda sucked by the 90s, lets not even talk about the horrifically slow bus that these chips were bolted onto...

Commodore squandered the Amiga for 6 years... and the AGA chipset was only just acceptable by the time it was released (being little more than an upgrade to the Denise chip)...

The PC graphics subsystems were suited to large resolutions with high colour depths, They were simply better. That is why these applications were developed for the PC and not the Amiga... which already had a history in the graphics field!


Quote

As software quality has influenced success hence hardware development, eventually this favour also led to hardware advantage.  But originally this mighty favour was only driven by psychology and marketing : it was not justified by any power advantage, except to my knowledge the small advantage Intel had over Motorolla processors.


By the early 90s when people started to demand better Graphics... The PC was not lumbered with a 5 year old graphics system, for which compatibility had to be maintained... Motorola were not developing the 68k as fast  as intel were pushing the x86 (I imagine resources were starting to drift to the PPC teams... or at least the 88K teams...)... hell, by 1990 almost every PC had an MMU as standard... often they had FPUs...

The PC was expensive but offered more power and better graphics, that is where it's popularity stemmed from.

Had Commodore kept up R&D budgets... the world today would be somewhat different.

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2008, 12:53:06 PM »
@bloodline

Ah, I prefer this to your insults.

I don't quite follow you, but my technical knowledge is poor.  Do you mean that Amiga graphic cards too are stuck in this planar system ?  In order to compare a 1990 PC with a 1990 Amiga for example, you have to compare machines that both have a graphic card, or it makes no sense to me, as the PC had no custom chips on the motherboard.

If you want to compare the Amiga's custom chips to what corresponds to them in the PC world, you have to compare two portable computers (because portable PCs had built-in graphic devices on the motherboard), and then you have to compare an A500 to a 1986 portable PC, as "portable" Amiga availability around 1990 was already negatively influenced by the PC's sucess.  And from this only comparison you have to conclude that the Amiga had better graphics than a PC, and that the PC's success was independant of graphic processing power.

So you can't compare the PC's graphic devices to the AGA chipset since the latter is a consequence (not a cause) of the PC's supremacy, which began as soon as the late 80's when most journalists chose to ignore the Amiga 2000 and 3000, in other words the Amiga's power and evolution, especially video gaming magazines.

Consequently, in the early 90's it's already too late to attribute the PC's success to a power advantage.  That's why, to my knowledge, the PC's sucess and power advantage are both the consequence of journalism.

However I agree that Commodore's reaction was inadequate.  But I'm pretty sure that Apple with the same reactions would have survived because Apple did not suffer from journalism (I am caricaturing to make short but I can illustrate).
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2008, 01:41:54 PM »
Quote

-D- wrote:
Quote

Hammer wrote:
 :-)
Quote

-D- wrote:
Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
If I understand well, such an interpolation is usefeul in films or wholly moving screens because it suppresses the "pauses" that occur when a frame is repeated.

But if it only adds frames it can't improve 2D animation, especially for objects that moves on the screen without changing shape, because in it motion must be regular. Every added frame will just slow animation down instead of stopping it, so instead of getting jerky animation you will just get wavy animation : it won't make the motion regular. In order to reproduce 2D animation accurately on a different refresh rate, you would need to redraw every frame to make it correspond to what the eye would see at the same moment if the display's frame rate was right..

The whole point about "motion interpolation" is to avoid judder issues e.g. playing 24FPS video on 60hz/120hz display.


Actually, the point is to reduce judder, nothing eliminates it entirely. You'll notice film aficionados generally prefer certain scaling techniques over others for this exact reason. From your wiki link:

Quote
According to CNET.com executive editor David Carnoy, with Sony's MotionFlow objects look more stable when the feature is turned on. This is sometimes accompanied by a glitch in the picture.[1] Not everyone likes the effect and some complain that it gives film a "video" look.[6]


Ermm, it’s a Sony....

This is not Philips Trimension middleware.
http://www.trimension.philips.com/

"Philips Trimension software for PCs ensures stunning image quality − even on the biggest, most demanding HD flat screens. No judder, no artifacts, just superb images and razor sharp video."

WinDVD7 is shipped with Philips TrimensionDNM middleware.

According to http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1449/smooth-operator.html


"To eliminate judder, Trimension calculates enough interpolated frames between the actual frames recorded on a DVD to be able to show them all at 60 fps. Good frame interpolation is a technically difficult and sophisticated process, and it's impressive that Trimension runs smoothly on a PC (a 2.8-GHz Pentium 4, at minimum)."


Not a problem with today's multi-core CPUs and video accelerators. Brute force computation performance can be applied at this problem.


"Smooth is also the word to describe the results. Old or new, B&W or color, animated or live action — if the original film was made at 24 fps, Trimension makes nearly all moving objects cross the screen with an almost surrealistic smoothness. While images containing no motion look precisely the same with the system on or off, it takes only a very slight movement — a turn of a head, the raising of a hand, a single step — to make the image look more lifelike than normal film. The effect is so pronounced that the latest version of WinDVD, v.7, includes a toned-down mode that introduces an even-rhythm, cinema-like judder ("2:2 pulldown")."


Latest WinDVD is at 9th release.


Nice (I think it looks OK), but quoting from the marketing literature doesn't change the fact that the process isn't 100% flawless, do some research around the video forums. Losing the "film-like" look of the video is a common complaint with Trimension, as are artifacts (like halos) in certain situations.

WinDVD 7 "includes a toned-down mode that introduces an even-rhythm, cinema-like judder ("2:2 pulldown")."

Quote

 By its nature, scaling/processing modifies the video content in some way or another, so far there is no method that everyone is happy with. That's why the wiki article (which mentions Trimension) sez "reduces", and not "eliminates". Might be a better argument to compare dedicated image processing hardware anyway, an $80 copy of WinDVD hardly compares to multi thousand dollar scaling hardware.

One should realise that multi-thousand dollars and  dedicated image processing hardware doesn’t automatically equal performance.

The computation performance from ATI and NV GpGPUs makes some multi-thousand dollar solutions a joke.

Any cost values must factor in the economic of scale.

Quote

Anyhow... regardless, you can't use it to play Superfrog via WinUAE. :-) The video you posted (while not terrible) absolutely isn't showing flawless scrolling, but as I said above, most people would be content with it. It would be better to just record it at 60Hz (if it works without glitches at 60Hz, or find an NTSC version if one exists). Fire up some Slamtilt at 60Hz, with your emulator configured for PAL/50 FPS and let me know how smooth it looks. ;)

I don't have Slamtilt, but I do have  Pinball Illusions AGA.

My WinUAE settings for playing PI-AGA

Model: A1200
ROM:KS ROM v3.0 (A1200) rev 39.106 (512k)

Settings
_Filter:
___PAL/50
_Display:
___FullScreen+VSync
___Render Every Frame
___FPS adj:50

_Chipset
___Cycle-exact
___Sound Emulation, 100 percent
___NTSC: FALSE
___Collision Level:FULL
___Faster RTG: FALSE
___Chipset Extra:A1200

The scolling is smooth (i.e. no judder) on
ASUS G1S laptop with Windows Vista Ultimate 32bit
Intel Core 2 Duo T7500 @2.2Ghz,
Dual MCH mode PC5300 4GB RAM,
NV Geforce 8600M GT GDDR3 @1.4Ghz VRAM 256MB.
Displayed on Samsung made built-in TFT 15.4" screen.

Quote

--edit-- BTW, Just thought I'd add Trimension software decoder doesn't even require "today's multi-core CPUs", requirements are a P4 and 256 MB RAM.

Without video co-processors such as PureVideo HD or Avivo HD, multi-core CPUs would be required to decode Blu-Ray or HD-DVD HD content.

BTW, Trimension middleware is not the decoder i.e. it's post processing.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2008, 01:46:01 PM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
@Hammer

Quote
It's fine for SuperFrog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZfX-EvDeNc


Animation in this video is quite ugly, you know.


Well the encode quality is poor..  
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2008, 01:49:50 PM »
Quote
The software, UAE, actually pretends to be the hardware... there is no re-targeting of calls (except in the RTG emulation)... the Amiga display is built entirely in software and then simply displayed via the host OS.

Don't forget AHI, Warp3D, Midi.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2008, 02:01:43 PM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
@bloodline

Ah, I prefer this to your insults.


I can do both.

Quote

I don't quite follow you, but my technical knowledge is poor.  Do you mean that Amiga graphic cards too are stuck in this planar system ?  


No Amiga graphics cards are built using the same chips as PC graphics cards.

Quote

In order to compare a 1990 PC with a 1990 Amiga for example, you have to compare machines that both have a graphic card, or it makes no sense to me, as the PC had no custom chips on the motherboard.


The Amiga was a little bit cheaper than the PC at the high end of the Market. But for the little more that you paid with the PC you got better Graphics. With the Amiga you had to pay the price of the Base machine and the graphics card, this pushed costs to far more than the PC. Plus the Amiga Operating system offered little support (ie none) for these graphics cards. This support had to be added by third party and were often buggy and incompatible.

Quote

If you want to compare the Amiga's custom chips to what corresponds to them in the PC world, you have to compare two portable computers (because portable PCs had built-in graphic devices on the motherboard), and then you have to compare an A500 to a 1986 portable PC, as "portable" Amiga availability around 1990 was already negatively influenced by the PC's sucess.  


But in the time frame we are looking at, neither the A500 or the "portable PC" would have been used for serious graphics work.

Quote

And from this only comparison you have to conclude that the Amiga had better graphics than a PC, and that the PC's success was independant of graphic processing power.


The Amiga had better graphics at the low end of the market, fine for the type of games available in the 80s and early 90s.

At the top end of the market the Amiga was considerably more expensive to achieve the same results.

Quote

So you can't compare the PC's graphic devices to the AGA chipset since the latter is a consequence (not a cause) of the PC's supremacy, which began as soon as the late 80's when most journalists chose to ignore the Amiga 2000 and 3000, in other words the Amiga's power and evolution, especially video gaming magazines.


AGA should have been included in a minor 1988/1989 update to the A500. It is after all little more than a new 24bit Denise chip.

The A2000 is just an A500 with ZorroII slots... the A3000 offered more CPU power, but at considerable cost and with the reason I mentioned above interms of gfx power.

Quote

Consequently, in the early 90's it's already too late to attribute the PC's success to a power advantage.  That's why, to my knowledge, the PC's sucess and power advantage are both the consequence of journalism.


The advantage was economic. Amiga's stopped being value for money at the high end graphics market in about 1991... and the low end of the market by 1993. This was Commodore's fault. They assumed that the Amiga like the C64 would just sell, without the need to constantly innovate.

Quote

However I agree that Commodore's reaction was inadequate.  But I'm pretty sure that Apple with the same reactions would have survived because Apple did not suffer from journalism (I am caricaturing to make short but I can illustrate).


Apple had a better marketing team, and were more prepared to take risks with innovative devices. Commodore's only achievement was to get the Amiga from the original prototype to market... The A500 was also brilliant, but late... that should have been on the cards with the original Amiga release... certainly within a few months.

Offline Hammer

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2008, 02:05:11 PM »
Quote
I don't quite follow you, but my technical knowledge is poor. Do you mean that Amiga graphic cards too are stuck in this planar system ? In order to compare a 1990 PC with a 1990 Amiga for example, you have to compare machines that both have a graphic card, or it makes no sense to me, as the PC had no custom chips on the motherboard.

One can treat Amiga’s custom chips as PC's IGPs.

Anyway, my laptop’s GPU (Geforce 8600M GT) and audio chips are mounted on the motherboard. I preferred a MXM-II gfx card btw…
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #148 on: May 02, 2008, 02:09:40 PM »
Quote

Hammer wrote:

 don't have Slamtilt, but I do have Pinball Illusions AGA.

My WinUAE settings for playing PI-AGA

Model: A1200
ROM:KS ROM v3.0 (A1200) rev 39.106 (512k)

Settings
_Filter:
___PAL/50
_Display:
___FullScreen+VSync
___Render Every Frame
___FPS adj:50

_Chipset
___Cycle-exact
___Sound Emulation, 100 percent
___NTSC: FALSE
___Collision Level:FULL
___Faster RTG: FALSE
___Chipset Extra:A1200




I can confirm that these settings also give perfect video on my MacBook Pro runing WinXP SP2 using WinUAE.

Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
The software, UAE, actually pretends to be the hardware... there is no re-targeting of calls (except in the RTG emulation)... the Amiga display is built entirely in software and then simply displayed via the host OS.

Don't forget AHI, Warp3D, Midi.


I did not wish to confuse the issue and was referring only to Graphics which seems to be the major concern of posters in this thread.

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2008, 03:19:25 PM »
@bloodline

[/quote]No Amiga graphics cards are built using the same chips as PC graphics cards.[/quote]

None ?  And were they significantly less powerful than the PC graphic cards of the same technological generation ? -- I don't mean the same "era" as the delay between PC and Amiga hardware, at the time of the Amiga graphic cards, may be attributed to other factors than power difference between the two standards.

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The Amiga was a little bit cheaper than the PC at the high end of the Market. But for the little more that you paid with the PC you got better Graphics. With the Amiga you had to pay the price of the Base machine and the graphics card, this pushed costs to far more than the PC.

At the top end of the market the Amiga was considerably more expensive to achieve the same results.


I agree, but the price factor depends on success, and success is not only the consequence of price, but reputation, and the reputation was mainly made by journalists, the majority of which never considered the desktop Amiga models, making price increase and condemning the Amiga to death (as if it was a game console).  Since graphic cards were (almost) only designed for desktop models, it may be enough to explain their rarity and the technological delay.

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Plus the Amiga Operating system offered little support (ie none) for these graphics cards. This support had to be added by third party and were often buggy and incompatible.


I hadn't thought about that.  Yet again I can't remember any journalist complaining about this problem, while even any video game journalist would any time criticize MS-Dos and Windows, hence encouraging progress.

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But in the time frame we are looking at, neither the A500 or the "portable PC" would have been used for serious graphics work.


Then we must only compare PCs to Amiga with graphic cards.  Yet most journalists were only interested in the "portable" Amiga.  Open any game magazine of that era : all talk about the Amiga 500, and later 600, CDTV, CD32 and 1200, but most act as if they ignore the existence of the A2000, 3000 and 4000, to such an extent that they were comparing 486 or Pentium PCs to the Amiga 500 or 600 - and nobody realized it was absurd.

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AGA should have been included in a minor 1988/1989 update to the A500. It is after all little more than a new 24bit Denise chip.

Thee A2000 is just an A500 with ZorroII slots...


Yes but the AGA chipset was not upgradeable anyway, so the Zorro slots hence desktop models had to be the key of Amiga evolution, which they couldn't be because of public disinterest forced by journalism.

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The advantage was economic.


You see, power did not make everything.

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Amiga's stopped being value for money at the high end graphics market in about 1991... and the low end of the market by 1993. This was Commodore's fault. They assumed that the Amiga like the C64 would just sell, without the need to constantly innovate.


But as I say I think it was already too late in 1991, as journalism had already been sending the A2000 (and later 3000 and 4000) - hence indirectly the whole Amiga range - into oblivion for five years.  Commodore has only accelerated the demise.  A computer can't sell if nobody talks about it.

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Apple had a better marketing team, and were more prepared to take risks with innovative devices


Yes indeed, but people were not acting as if the only Apple on the market in 1992 was the '84 Mac or the Apple IIc.