Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Franko on May 05, 2011, 05:36:58 AM
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As it turned out, this thread was a waste of time... :)
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I hate to cross-post, but here's my suggestion from one of the other threads:
Now, here's a question for CLOANTO if they're readying this thread. Why not update their distributions and include the following and make everyone happy (and boost their sales):
#1: An easy way to use Amiga Explorer to transfer a version of the WB3.x environment from the PC to a real Amiga via a serial cable.
#2: An easy way to make a boot floppy from an ADF that will allow a real Amiga to install their WB3.x environment from their CD.
#3: HDF images of their WB3.x environment which can be used on UAE and also happen to work on FPGA type "Amigas" such as the FPGA Arcade or a 68000 friendly version for the Minimig v1.1.
If we had something like that then nobody would need pirate disks and they could use Amiga Forever on real Amigas with ease.
Come on Cloanto, can you do it and if not, why not?
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The best way to get them is to buy Amiga Forever, the ultimate Amiga Virtual Machine. Cloanto has different prices to meet everyone's budget.
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Not really though... Amiga Forever only includes complete ADF sets for Workbench 3.1 and 1.3. For the other versions it only includes the initial 'Workbench' ADF, not Extras, Locale etc.
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The best way to get them is to buy Amiga Forever, the ultimate Amiga Virtual Machine. Cloanto has different prices to meet everyone's budget.
If you know the Cloanto guys then can you ask them about having HDF images and a version of their WB3.x that will run on real Amigas? After all, they don't have to advertise them as "for real Amigas" because they can market them as "for use in UAE configurations" (I create my Minimig HDFs on AmigaForever and I've made one for the FPGA Arcade too).
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I vaguely remember something about Cloanto only have license for use with emulator.
I have no idea from whom they've gotten their licenses for lately though, like for the 3.X stuff where they have an 3.9-ish kickstart file.
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The best way to get them is to buy Amiga Forever, the ultimate Amiga Virtual Machine. Cloanto has different prices to meet everyone's budget.
Amiga Forever is okay.......but come on....why so much product placement?
I just want new copies of Workbench, and it doesn't work fully on my Mac so it isn't ideal for everyone!
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If you know the Cloanto guys then can you ask them about having HDF images and a version of their WB3.x that will run on real Amigas? After all, they don't have to advertise them as "for real Amigas" because they can market them as "for use in UAE configurations" (I create my Minimig HDFs on AmigaForever and I've made one for the FPGA Arcade too).
How did you get on trying AROS68k?
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Hopefully this can be a sensible discussion on peoples ideas & thoughts on how to make it simple and easy for folk to get hold of Workbench Disk Sets either free or paid for without us all fighting with each other about the legalities of copyright etc... and descending in silly name calling and all that malarky... :)
There was a post to Petro Tyschtschenko's facebook. http://de-de.facebook.com/people/Petro-T-Tyschtschenko/1365691299 (http://de-de.facebook.com/people/Petro-T-Tyschtschenko/1365691299)
I have messaged him a few times and he has stated 3.1 and prior was released back around '96 for "free distribution". He said it was known back then that the OS was released on cover disks and made available for anyone and everyone. I have asked if either he would himself or at least allow for permission to put the disks on Aminet. I guess we will see.
I asked if he had any documents as well. I mentioned the readme on the cover disks which predates Amiga Inc. and Cloanto. (I didn't mention AI or Cloanto), and if there was any similar documentation from back then.
Seems pretty clear the the OS was available for free distro before AI came along. Hell, I even have the CD with the complete Workbench 3.0 disk set on it and the readme myself from Petro saying it's been released free. This is ridiculous!
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We are expecting more NOS AmigaOS 3.1 Disk Sets due in the next two weeks if this helps. These were manufactured by Amiga Technologies.
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The situation is actually worse than you guys describe it. The ROM:s and Workbench disks provided in the Amiga Forever package are licensed for emulation purposes only and according to Cloanto you are not allowed to use them in real Amigas.
Source:
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145
This leaves the few vendors still selling physical ROM:s and WB floppy disks as the sole legit way of getting hold of them. Truly ridiculous.
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This leaves the few vendors still selling physical ROM:s and WB floppy disks as the sole legit way of getting hold of them. Truly ridiculous.
And there is no guarantee that what they are selling is legitimate.
Maybe it's because I bought the 3.1 upgrade for my a500 when it came out & I bought an Amiga Technologies 1200 that came with 3.1 that I don't see this as a huge issue. Also by allowing someone to legally produce new disks it will actually decrease the value of my property.
What is ridiculous is that nobody wants to pirate the disks, but they don't want to spend money on them either. If I offered my 3.1 upgrade for the price I paid plus inflation then I don't think I'd get any offers, but that is what it basically cost me.
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@psxphill
I can assure you that the Workbench disks and ROMs we sell are legitimate and genuine. Our ROMs are Mask ROMs, not EEPROMs which we have paid significant costs to obtain this surplus stock:
(http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/images/amiga-roms.jpg)
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I bought OS3.9 from Vesalia in 2004 and it is a CDR with a printed label.
Same goes for my Developer CD too, but I can't remember which retailer I bought it from.
Edit:
Correction, the OS3.9 CD is a genuine CD, it's the dev cd which is a CDR.
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My os3.9 cd was a genuine CD, so was my dev cd
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How did you get on trying AROS68k?
I'm on a business trip at the moment, so I'm stuck in a hotel in New Mexico with no Amiga in sight. I should be home in 3-5 weeks and I'll give it a whirl then.
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Some one gave me a CD full of Amiga Data.
On it is a complete set of Workbench disks in DMS format.
WB13_1.DMS P 367524 15-04-95 ---Workbench 1.3 + Extras
WB13_2.DMS P 362411 15-04-95
WB20_1.DMS P 401411 15-04-95 ---Workbench 2.0 + Extras
WB20_2.DMS P 515150 15-04-95
WB20_3.DMS P 341909 15-04-95
WB21-1.DMS P 377912 30-12-95 ---Workbench 2.1 + Extras
WB21-2.DMS P 335240 30-12-95
WB21-3.DMS P 366180 30-12-95
WB21-4.DMS P 194009 30-12-95
WB21-5.DMS P 521655 30-12-95
WB30_1.DMS P 385728 15-04-95 ---Workbench 3.0 + Extras
WB30_2.DMS P 402709 15-04-95
WB30_3.DMS P 312044 15-04-95
WB30_4.DMS P 324191 15-04-95
WB30_5.DMS P 129453 15-04-95
WB30_6.DMS P 233418 15-04-95
WB31-1.DMS P 403238 30-12-95 ---Workbench 3.1 + Extras
WB31-2.DMS P 392396 30-12-95
WB31-3.DMS P 237098 30-12-95
WB31-4.DMS P 360901 30-12-95
WB31-5.DMS P 42403 30-12-95
WB31-6.DMS P 122594 30-12-95
I don't know where he got it from but he gave up all his Amiga stuff and some of it came to me.
Mike.
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I'm on a business trip at the moment, so I'm stuck in a hotel in New Mexico with no Amiga in sight. I should be home in 3-5 weeks and I'll give it a whirl then.
That's a monager Business Trip! What on earth do you do? Secret Rock Star? ;)
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Some one gave me a CD full of Amiga Data.
On it is a complete set of Workbench disks in DMS format.
Workbench 1.3 + Extras
Workbench 2.0 + Extras
Workbench 2.1 + Extras
Workbench 3.0 + Extras
Workbench 3.1 + Extras
.....
good find :), i think we have a winner here! I would gladly host these in a future with no copyright bs :mad: ...
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@psxphill
I can assure you that the Workbench disks and ROMs we sell are legitimate and genuine. Our ROMs are Mask ROMs, not EEPROMs which we have paid significant costs to obtain this surplus stock:
What guarantees can you make that you legally have a right to distribute these disks and roms? Is this from a stolen or seized stock? Is their documented proof? Just because they are "orignal" doesn't mean AI say you can distribute them.
I half joking and am half serious. How can we be certain what you are selling is legal? Do you have some documentation? Where do the pirate reporting nazis stop?
At least there is documentation from Petro that 3.0 can be distributed free.
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That's a monager Business Trip! What on earth do you do? Secret Rock Star? ;)
LOL. I'm a petroleum engineer. Last week I was in Texas, this week is New Mexico, next week is Wyoming, week after is back in Texas, then New Mexico for another week (possibly back to Texas and then return to New Mexico again) and then... 3 weeks off!!!
Prior to this trip I had 6 days off after 2 weeks in Texas and 2 weeks in New Mexico.
Unfortunately, I own my own company and the owner is a slave-driving bastard. :D
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@psxphill
I can assure you that the Workbench disks and ROMs we sell are legitimate and genuine. Our ROMs are Mask ROMs, not EEPROMs which we have paid significant costs to obtain this surplus stock:
What guarantees can you make that you legally have a right to distribute these disks and roms? Is this from a stolen or seized stock? Is their documented proof? Just because they are "orignal" doesn't mean AI say you can distribute them.
I'm half joking and am half serious. How can we be certain what you are selling is legal? Do you have some documentation? Where do the pirate reporting nazis stop?
At least there is documentation from Petro that 3.0 can be distributed free.
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@psxphill
I can assure you that the Workbench disks and ROMs we sell are legitimate and genuine. Our ROMs are Mask ROMs, not EEPROMs which we have paid significant costs to obtain this surplus stock:
(http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/images/amiga-roms.jpg)
Sure - but they are unmodified stock 3.1 kickstarts. What people really want today is to be able to distribute updated ROMs without facing legal whackaboo, both images and actual chips - at least that is what I would want.
BTW - What are these - EPROMs?
(http://amiga.erkan.se/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/pic3-amiga-3000-kickstart-31.jpg)
I ask since I also have some kickstarts that I have bought, that I suspect are really EPROMs, the stickers on them look even more glossy 3.1 if I remember correctly.
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*whistles "A Pirate's Life for Me"*
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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@Franko
I did not close the other thread. If you have suggestions for feature improvements to the excellent Amiga Forever 2011 Premium package please contact the developers with you feedback and requests.
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@Franko
I did not close the other thread.
Well, the other thread was closed with yours as the last post, so that was a fair assumption.. ;-)
As for AmigaForever, it is (IMHO) a great product.
I think people should support Cloanto and I do belive Cloanto helps the Amiga community, so it's a great situation.
However, it sounds like, from the licensing, Cloanto is a solution for a virtualized Amiga and not a "legal" way to acquire Workbenches and kickstarts for your physical Amiga.
As a result, Cloanto isn't the answer, unless you are saying, "Out of the solutions that aren't fully legal, Cloanto is the best choice."
(Which I might agree with, but I am hearing that the images on the Cloanto distribution might not be true originals????? :confused::confused: and might not work on a real Amiga??? :confused:)
desiv
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Workbench Disk Sets... What Would Be The Best Way To Obtain Them...
Google!
...might be worth attempting to get whatever site is hosting them up in the ranks.
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@psxphill
I can assure you that the Workbench disks and ROMs we sell are legitimate and genuine. Our ROMs are Mask ROMs, not EEPROMs which we have paid significant costs to obtain this surplus stock:
(http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/images/amiga-roms.jpg)
I wasn't making a specific accusation, although if you want some examples of eproms being sold on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AMIGA-600-Used-Kickstart-Rom-3-1-version-40-63-/270741781951?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0977bdbf
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AMIGA-500-kickstart-Rom-3-1-mother-board-rev-6A-/220762490258?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3366784592
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AMIGA-500-kickstart-Rom-3-1-mother-board-rev-3-5-/270734867677?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f090e3cdd
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AMIGA-1200-KICKSTART-ROM-3-1-VER-40-68-USED-WORK-/220771996982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3367095536
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AMIGA-2000-kickstart-Rom-3-1-VER-40-63-USED-WORKING-/270745000825?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f09a8db79
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AMIGA-3000-kickstart-Rom-3-1-Ver-40-68-used-working-/220743599028?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33655803b4
and this is where they are "honest" and posting a picture of an eprom.
I'm half joking and am half serious. How can we be certain what you are selling is legal? Do you have some documentation? Where do the pirate reporting nazis stop?
I might still have the original receipt from the 90's, I'd have to check. It's boxed with all manuals, disks, mask rom etc.
If someone wants to go to the hassle and expense of getting the manuals, boxes, disks printed & mask roms created then it's going to be difficult to tell unless you buy it & get an expert to identify it. I can't imagine that anyone would bother.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Nothing to see here.
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@Franko
We are not motivated by anything financial to support Cloanto. We support them because they sell and continue to update an awesome Amiga Virtual Machine. Should it be upgraded to also be just as nice on Mac OS X and Linux as it is on Windows. Of course it should, we hope over time that happens. Amiga OS should run on as many environments as possible.
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We are not motivated by anything financial to support Cloanto. We support them because they sell and continue to update an awesome Amiga Virtual Machine.
There's a big difference between supporting them and playing cheerleader for them, and the Aorg staff seems to be way on the other side of it. I don't bear any ill will towards Cloanto, but what they offer is manifestly not a simple way to get Workbench disks for classic Amigas, and whether they're supporting Aorg or not, you're quite blatantly shilling for them when it's not even relevant to the thread.
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@Transition: This is just stupid. The files Clanto distribute is both useless and illegal to use on a real Amiga.
we might just end up deleting this entire thread outright
@SilvrDrgn: Yea that seems sensible, NOT. And since Transition did not cloce the other thread I assume it was you; based on your statement in my quote.
@AO mods generally: Freedom of speech anyone??
Well I guess you use the American variant of the concept: Freedom of speech for everyone that agrees with the powers to be.
And let me pleas remind you that the legal status of AI so called IP-ownership is highly questionable and never tested in court. And that even long before the Amiga Inc Washington to KMOS transfer (http://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/).
We are expecting more NOS AmigaOS 3.1 Disk Sets due in the next two weeks if this helps. These were manufactured by Amiga Technologies.
@amigakit: Nice to know that 3.1 can be bought but that is just a very temporary solution (that stock will run out; what then?) and only for Amiga owners with KS3.0 and higher. And assuming this is legal disks manufactured by Amiga Technologies; how old would this stock be? About 15yrs or something like that? How much lifetime can we expect form them if we buy them today? I'd had floppies fail after much shorter storage time than that.
@Franko:
Keep up the good work, about time someone did what you seem to be up to. If no-one challenged the ownership of the IP our OS would for sure be stuck in limbo for eternity.
-Edit- On topic, if Franko wants to challenge Amiga Inc's claim to the AmigaOS IP, then he needs to do it properly, not through piracy but through the legal system!
@bloodline: Hmm, as far as i understand the legal system this is not an option at all; What right does Franko have (or anyone of us for that sake) , as a private citizen with no previous legal interest in the IP in question, to challenge the ownership in court? The only option any of us have to get this issue to a court of law, is to force the (self-acclaimed) owners to initiate the legal proceedings one way or another. Do you have any better suggestions on how to do that than what Franko is doing right now?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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@Franko: I totally agree with you, and you have my full support. Were it not for the fact that my servers have a physical location with a internet-link at the courtesy of my former employee I would have done the same earlier, or at-least mirrored your files at this point. I would be happy to be able to face the alleged owners of the Amiga IP in a court-of-law. But I am sorry to admit that I would not risk loosing my free server location and hi-speed internet-link, as I could never afford renting a location for them with even a low-speed link.
@Thread: And if anyone believes that my last two sentences contradict each-other; Being dragged to court wouldn't cost me anything, deference-lawyers are paid by the state in Norway.
Edit: Small correction: In light of the info from amigakit I would have mirrored the 1.3 trough 3.0 as long as their arriving stock of 3.1 last., Then I would have mirrored all. Then there would have been no way any alleged IP-owners could have won a case against me in a Norwegian-court-of-law, even if the court would agree to their claim of ownership; which I very much doubt they would.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Just wanted to voice my support, as I believe what you are doing is the only right thing to do, and should have been done a long time ago.
Good to hear that you got experience.
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Yep, me too - I reckon it's a great idea. Keep up the good work!
Cheers,
Mike.
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Seems I've opened a big can of worms here with my wee quest to find out who actually owns the rights to distribute or sell Workbench Disk sets... :)
All I can say is Im glad I only got round to going on the net last summer as if this bury your head in the sand BS and you can't mention that here crap has been going on for all these years then I'm glad I missed it... :)
Strange place Amigaland these days for the few of us remaining and who just want to get on with using our Amigas because we actually enjoy them. We seem to be thwarted at every turn by a bunch of hypocrites and to be honest just plain wankers who think that their ignorant opinions on copyright laws and even more bloody annoying holier than thou attitudes should be imposed on the rest of us... :madashell:
Now setting aside all the politicking and behind the scenes stuff that happens on these forums, it's becoming more and more clear just who & what the owners think is more important to their sites. It's clear that Amiga Emulators and therefore PCs are more important than genuine Amiga Hardware users and members, sad but there you have it and we now know where we all stand... :(
Perhaps a rename of the site to AmigaEmulator.org might be more appropriate... ;)
As for me whether it upsets the site owners or not because they value Cloanto more than their members, then sorry but I won't be stopping my wee quest to put this issue to rest once and for all. If that means I am not allowed to do so here or am banned for doing so, then so be it, I have to admit it would be a shame as I really love this site and the vast majority of its members with whom I've had great fun and had the pleasure of interacting with... :)
Whether I do so partially from this site my own or numerous other options I have, then I simply won't be stopping nor be stopped by anyone in my attempt to answer this question once and for all... ;)
It high time everyone who cares stopped for a moment and takes in the reality of just how asburd, stupid and petty all this nonsense is and we all put our efforts together and force this issue to a point where whomever it is who claims to hold these rights is challenged in a court of law to prove it so. This has been going on long before I came along and will continue to do so unless we take a stand and force the issue once and for all... :)
At the end of the day all these years of nonsense has done nothing but harm to the image of the Amiga Community and will just continue to make us a bigger laughing stock than we already are in the world of computers... :(
So I ask all who are willing, think about it carefully and if like me you want to end all this nonsense then please stand up and be counted and express your thoughts and opinions on it here and anywhere else you can loudly and proudly and for once together we can finally achieve something good for the Amiga Community... :)
Thank you very much sir! Vitriolic, but accurate. I wholly support legitimate copyright holders rights. But the illegitimate restraints placed on WB/AOS definitely need to be tested.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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The easiest way it purchase 1.3 and 3.1 is exactly how Transition as alluded to:
Step 1 buy Amiga Forever,
Step 2 buy a Catweasel Mk4 or Mk4+.........
In my opinion if you are a classic amiga user the Catweasel (on a PC) is worth every penny.
Would you really what or need any of these version of amiga OS: 1.0, 1.1, or 1.2 1.4, 2.0, 2.04, or 2.1?. I can maybe see wanting a version 1.0 or 1.2 roms to boot some old games but probably not the OS
As for 3.5, 3.9, and 3.9withBB2
Unless you are in a special situation, with a 68020 one would probably not want os 3.5
or 3.9
just OS 3.9with bb2 and is that not still available?
As for a HDF file, one can use WInUAE/Amiga Forever to make any HDF file they wish, out of the Amiga Forever's files.adf and/or AmigaOS Cdroms.
@hceline, I don't remember signing any CUDA saying that I can only use the .ADF files with an emulated amiga. This sounds more like a distribution agreement Amiga Forever made with Amiga, Inc.
Anyway, don't just about all of use have at least original copies of amiga os 1.3 and 3.1 and maybe 3.5 and 3.9?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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The easiest way it purchase 1.3 and 3.1 is exactly how Transition as alluded to:
Step 1 buy Amiga Forever,
Step 2 buy a Catweasel Mk4 or Mk4+.........
In my opinion if you are a classic amiga user the Catweasel (on a PC) is worth every penny.
Would you really what or need any of these version of amiga OS: 1.0, 1.1, or 1.2 1.4, 2.0, 2.04, or 2.1?. I can maybe see wanting a version 1.0 or 1.2 roms to boot some old games but probably not the OS
As for 3.5, 3.9, and 3.9withBB2
Unless you are in a special situation, with a 68020 one would probably not want os 3.5
or 3.9
just OS 3.9with bb2 and is that not still available?
How many times must it be said??!!??!!!!
They do not work on a real Amiga!!! And it is still equally illegal!!!
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145 :rtfm::rtfm::rtfm:
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The easiest way it purchase 1.3 and 3.1 is exactly how Transition as alluded to:
Step 1 buy Amiga Forever,
Step 2 buy a Catweasel Mk4 or Mk4+.........
In my opinion if you are a classic amiga user the Catweasel (on a PC) is worth every penny.
You seem to have missed that you only are legally allowed to use the WB disks and ROMs included in Amiga Forever for emulation purposes and not on a real Amiga. I even doubt that you are allowed to use the ROM image files for running WHDLoad or softkicking on a real Amiga.
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145
Edit: a few minutes late, drat :)
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The easiest way it purchase 1.3 and 3.1 is exactly how Transition as alluded to:
Step 1 buy Amiga Forever,
Step 2 buy a Catweasel Mk4 or Mk4+.........
In my opinion if you are a classic amiga user the Catweasel (on a PC) is worth every penny.
First off, it seems from what others are saying that the system images on Amiga Forever don't even work on a real Amiga - that's a deal-breaker right there, unless they're mistaken. Second, any solution for getting an Amiga up and running that involves buying a software package and then buying $70 worth of hardware just to get the software package onto physical media is sub-optimal - the Catweasel is a fine piece of hardware for what it is, but some of us have no need for such a thing and no desire to spend $70 on something we'd never use again.
Would you really what or need any of these version of amiga OS: 1.0, 1.1, or 1.2 1.4, 2.0, 2.04, or 2.1?. I can maybe see wanting a version 1.0 or 1.2 roms to boot some old games but probably not the OS
Maybe, maybe not, but if nobody's going to make them legitimately available then I don't see how people can complain when they're pirated...
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A lot of people fail to realize the reason that Cloanto has not posted in these threads since Franko started:
They have no legal option to present; just like Franko they got no license for distributing WB for use on real Amiga hardware, and they probably got no way of obtaining one. And if they posted here they would have to admit so, which would strengthen Frankos case.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Wow!
I didn't realize my comment cause such a stir.
@hceline
I know that amiga forever roms do not work, as they need a key file, but the two original 1.3 .adf disk and 6 original 3.1 .adf disks also? I did't know that and to be honest it is a bit surprising.
I actually have never try putting the workbench adf on disk, though I might try the one, the 3.1 workbench disk, just as test. I am usually doing the opposite, putting my games disks on WinUAE. Luckly for me, I still have original working copies of 1.3, 2.04, 2.1, 3.1, 3.5, and 3.9withbb2. I should think about making a couple back ups of them all up now.
@Franko
It is cool that you are using so many versions of the OS still.
Though I like the idea of releasing the OS to the public domain or at least make them available for purchase, it may be a pipe dream. Many formerly commercially available OSs out there are still not released, and in many cases unavailable.
like
MSDOS , windows 1.0-3.1, 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000,
MacOS after 7.5.5
I bet classic mac users would love 7.6.1, 8.1, 9.1, and 9.2 to be available.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I think that only 1.3.4 and 3.1 are the 2 and 6 disks respectively like the original disk based distros.
The others 1.00, 1.1, 1.2, 2.0, 2.04, 2.1, 3.0 are boot compilations for Amiga Forever.
@ commodorejohn
Here's list of the ADF directory taken from my copy of Amiga Forever Premium Edition 2008 which cost me £59 from Vesalia...
af-boot.adf
amiga-os-100-workbench.adf
amiga-os-110-workbench.adf
amiga-os-120-workbench.adf
amiga-os-134-extras.adf
amiga-os-134-workbench.adf
amiga-os-200-workbench.adf
amiga-os-204-workbench.adf
amiga-os-210-workbench.adf
amiga-os-300-workbench.adf
amiga-os-310-extras.adf
amiga-os-310-fonts.adf
amiga-os-310-install.adf
amiga-os-310-locale.adf
amiga-os-310-storage.adf
amiga-os-310-workbench.adf
16 files - 7056 blocks used
as you can see it only has the Workbench 3.0 disk (no extras, install etc) but also they have been changed especially the StartUp-Sequence from what you would find on a real Workbench disk and include Cloanto copyright notices... :(
You can judge for yourself if this is value for money, if say for example you were just needing to replace one faulty floppy disk... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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@Franko
I stand corrected
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I have asked many times before, all these nah sayers and arm chair lawyers, do any of you actually use CLASSIC AMIGA'S??? becuase if you did you would shut the hell up. I have ORGINAL 1.3, 2.04 and 3.0 and 3.1 WB Disks (Franko i will check if my 1.3 disks are alright, if so i will make them into adf's for you), BUT i know for sure the 3.0 and 3.1 disks have errors where am i suppose to get new one?
as for Amiga Forever that's not an option as
1. They don't work on real amiga's
2. Why would i spend money on something i can do for free, WINUAE is not that hard to set up using a real Hard drive as an amiga drive.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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No problem mate I actually have the adf's already But i would rather give you my originals just hope the disk are OK as i haven't tried them in ages. i will know tonight.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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And it is still equally illegal!!!
Your argument doesn't get any more valid by adding more exclamation marks, you know.
Especially if it's bullshit - not doing what a software license wants you to do might be a lot of things, but it would certainly not be "illegal" in this particular case.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I have asked many times before, all these nah sayers and arm chair lawyers, do any of you actually use CLASSIC AMIGA'S??? becuase if you did you would shut the hell up. I have ORGINAL 1.3, 2.04 and 3.0 and 3.1 WB Disks (Franko i will check if my 1.3 disks are alright, if so i will make them into adf's for you), BUT i know for sure the 3.0 and 3.1 disks have errors where am i suppose to get new one?
as for Amiga Forever that's not an option as
1. They don't work on real amiga's
2. Why would i spend money on something i can do for free, WINUAE is not that hard to set up using a real Hard drive as an amiga drive.
I have the AF 3.1 Disks and that with CWBv26 is whats on my A1200. So It does work on real hardware. Not that I don't agree with getting them from where ever you need too.
Just so you know theres a site called piratebay dot org and I don't recomend you go there and search for the word TOSEC. I double don't recomend you download the 22.61Gig Amiga one they have there.
;D
It does contain EVERY OS disk ever made for the amiga and several versions of each version. So you defenatly want to stay away from that as its most likey not leagle.
Just sayin
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I think murdering someone is always the best and most interesting way to aquire "things". Especially Workbench Disks and Kickstart roms! I can't tell you how many bodies of Dead Amiga users are hidden under my house. It's a gas!
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Who owns the C64 rom rights? Why are those included in every emulator?
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I think murdering someone is always the best and most interesting way to aquire "things". Especially Workbench Disks and Kickstart roms! I can't tell you how many bodies of Dead Amiga users are hidden under my house. It's a gas!
say while your out there wahken slashin and hackin peopl up get me a pal a1200 and a replacement a4000 board whil your at it. oh could use a sx-32 aswell. ill send you address of more amiga owners in exchange.
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Who owns the C64 rom rights? Why are those included in every emulator?
santa owns 1/2 the rights and the other 1/2 is split among the seveb dwarfs.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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therefore it appears to be illegal... :)
I know "illegal" sounds very cool and dramatic, but it's simply not the proper term. But why care about facts or reality if all that seems to matter is generating attention by spamming this board with useless drivel?
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I know "illegal" sounds very cool and dramatic, but it's simply not the proper term. But why care about facts or reality if all that seems to matter is generating attention by spamming this board with useless drivel?
What would you call it then?
You take an AF CD and make Workbench floppies from it, no legal right.
You take ADF from Internet and make Workbench floppies from it, no legal right.
That is what everyone keeps saying. How are the two different? Are they both illegal or not illegal?
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santa owns 1/2 the rights and the other 1/2 is split among the seveb dwarfs.
I'm serious. C64 emulators include the C64 rom and OS and no one cares. Why? That even includes MS software in it. Pretty soon I'm sure Dammy will be spamming the boards with his pirate CommodoreOS C64 ROMs then.
If someone includes links to C64 emulators are they going to get reported as a pirate?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Just voted on your site for free WB release :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I have the AF 3.1 Disks and that with CWBv26 is whats on my A1200. So It does work on real hardware. Not that I don't agree with getting them from where ever you need too.
Just so you know theres a site called piratebay dot org and I don't recomend you go there and search for the word TOSEC. I double don't recomend you download the 22.61Gig Amiga one they have there.
;D
It does contain EVERY OS disk ever made for the amiga and several versions of each version. So you defenatly want to stay away from that as its most likey not leagle.
Just sayin
:D my Friend would it shock you to know that i have about 150GB of amiga "disks.." not including all of aminet... :D quite frankly i love to pirate it good for what ails you... :lol:
and although i have EVERY Amiga OS there is (even some of it legal... GASP) it's the point that most of these people who claim to speak for the WB IP holder (using the term loosely because who ever it is wouldn't know them for a dog dodo on the road.. :D) don't actually use a Classic Amiga.
P.S. i always stayed away from demonoid (not that i would have an account mind you..... :D), isohunt and BTJunkie and i would for sure not search for the Ultimate Amiga collection all 9 DVDs........ :D
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P.S. i always stayed away from demonoid (not that i would have an account mind you..... :D), isohunt and BTJunkie and i would for sure not search for the Ultimate Amiga collection all 9 DVDs........ :D
Why would anyone waste time downloading 18Gbs of the ADF part of that collection when you can download the 7zip 3.5gb identical collection of all ADFs? :roflmao:
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:roflmao:
I really hope you meant to say "Whackin" or "Whacking" cos the way you spelt it, it sounds like Xdelusion is going about masturbating people to death... :eek:
i spent my skewl days not learning to spell. :D i spent more of that time learning computers and gameing. i can read well. and really i dont care how he kills them just dont get any on my new amigas!
:)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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:roflmao:
I really hope you meant to say "Whackin" or "Whacking" cos the way you spelt it, it sounds like Xdelusion is going about masturbating people to death... :eek:
Ya sorry, no hand jobs, at least not for the fellows.
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I'm serious. C64 emulators include the C64 rom and OS and no one cares. Why?/QUOTE]
Because at a certain point someone at Commodore gave the right to distribute them.
Staf.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Be nice if you could provide some evidence to back up that statement... :)
I was surfing for it but don't seem to find a reference, I think it was still from my usenet days. So mark it illegal until I find a reference.
greets,
Staf.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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@Franko
Actually lawyers tend to make Trademarks. "Windows" is not really possible to trademark, it's generic and describes a part of a GUI. But try naming something computer related "Windows" and you'll be hit seven ways to sunday by MS lawyers.
Also once the Trademark is officially in the Trademarks database it's far harder to dispute it. Really, you are fighting a fight that would be difficult to win. AsiaRIM (who say they own the Commodore name) are incorporated in the EU. Pick your battles carefully.
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Upload the files here so your provider doesn't complain! https://rapidshare.com/
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Good luck, Franko.
Perhaps you should follow tone007's suggestion.
And BTW, Persia, in the 80's and 90's my company sold a GUI for OS9 68K called G-Windows.
We were never sued.
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Interesting...
Just received this email from my site hosts for AmigaUK.com ...;)
I've sent an email back enquiring just who owns the copyright or indeed if someone has made a complaint who claims to be the the copyright holder and if so they need to provide proof of ownership as I would like to contact them to discuss this matter... :)
Or indeed if they wish to take this matter up in a court of law and settle it there... :)
Just need to wait again and see what answer I get this time... :)
Someone here on this site has obviously reported you. Some self-righteous, petty, little self-appointed Internet policeman. You can probably guess who just by reading the replies to your suggestion of making the disks available in the other thread.
Rather than hosting them on your site, just host them on Rapidshare and post a link to Rapidshare on your site (you will probably have to change the link every week as Rapidshare deletes the files and you have to re-upload them) or even better, bittorrent.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Cloanto is in a dubious position considering that AF2008(?) shipped with at least one game that they most likely didn't have proper rights to. The version of Arkanoid that came with my friend's copy was only licensed for distribution in Europe (we're in Canada), so even if the original publisher was ok with it, the North American publishing rights belonged to a different company entirely. I very much doubt that either the European or North American publisher's original licensing deal with Taito is even valid anymore to begin with, and I would be very surprised if Cloanto has any formal arrangement with Taito.
And then there's the issue of using cracked versions of software. I wonder if they have permission from the crackers to profit from their work.
If Cloanto has actually managed to sort out the tangled mess of rights and licenses, then holy shit, you better watch out.
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Rapidshare is just tedious anyways.
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Rapidshare is just tedious anyways.
Or you could use buy Amiga Forever 2011 and not share. If users want more features added like other versions of Workbench disks then ask for them. Software developers love to keep developing and upgrading great Virtual Machine software.
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Or you could use buy Amiga Forever 2011 and not share. If users want more features added like other versions of Workbench disks then ask for them. Software developers love to keep developing and upgrading great Virtual Machine software.
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145
Using Amiga Forever as a source for disks for real Amiga hardware is illegal and likely to get Cloanto into trouble. It may not be wise for Cloanto's sake for you to keep suggesting this illegal behavior.
This thread is about Workbench disks for real hardware. Amiga Forever is not an option. See the link above.
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Or you could use buy Amiga Forever 2011 and not share. If users want more features added like other versions of Workbench disks then ask for them. Software developers love to keep developing and upgrading great Virtual Machine software.
Do you actively ignore what people are writing?
This is NOT about getting "great Virtual Machine software".
This is about getting legal replacements for Workbench disks suitable for installation on REAL Amigas.
Using Amiga Forever contents for that purpose is illegal according to Cloanto.
What is unclear?
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http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145
Using Amiga Forever as a source for disks for real Amiga hardware is illegal and likely to get Cloanto into trouble. It may not be wise for Cloanto's sake for you to keep suggesting this illegal behavior.
This thread is about Workbench disks for real hardware. Amiga Forever is not an option. See the link above.
Maybe your right, Cloanto should chime in on this one and give some clarity.
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Maybe your right, Cloanto should chime in on this one and give some clarity.
That's what Franko has had on his site. No ROM images at all which is essential to run an emulator, and would hurt Cloanto, but Franko has no ROM images.
He simply has the Workbench images and install disks etc, for people that need replacements for disks that have died. With just these disks and no ROMS you can't actually emulate anything anyway.
These disks are of no use by themselves unless you have an Amiga anyway. (or unless you pirate a ROM in which case you will pirate the disks somewhere else anyway, but that is another story)
Anyway that is all that is going on here.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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PS:as It's obvious Cloanto has been reading these posts then there is no need to contact them, perhaps it's time they spoke for themselves, how about it Cloanto... :)
And...total silence.
Any more word about who "the software company" is, Franko?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Interesting.
I can't wait to see how they respond to that question.
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Some self-righteous, petty, little self-appointed Internet policeman.
I don't hide when I do something. I find the no-piracy TOS part of amiga.org important and I ask the admins to enforce when it is violated. But that is all I did.
greets,
Staf.
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I don't hide when I do something. I find the no-piracy TOS part of amiga.org important and I ask the admins to enforce when it is violated. But that is all I did.
greets,
Staf.
+1
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I dug this up out of the usenet archives circa 1993. Not legally binding, but I thought it interesting anyway. Check out the bit I have in bold underline and the apparent CBM official posting....
Plaz
Carolyn Scheppner - CATS Mar 2 1993, 9:54 pm
In article crys...@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crysta|) writes:
>Hello,
>We are having a bit of a war on a BBS over whether or not Kickstart 1.3 is in
>the public domain (in its floppy-based form) or if copying the floppy from a
>friend is considered copyright infringement.
This is Carolyn Scheppner, Technical Mgr. of Commodore Applications
and Technical Support (CATS).
Kickstart 1.3 is not in the public domain. None of our Kickstarts or
Workbench disks are in the public domain.
No company other than Commodore should be distributing it unless
they are buying the Kickstart disk from Commodore. It may be possible
for Commdore dealers to still order 1.3 Kickstart replacement disks.
However, if you have an A1000 and copy a friend's Kickstart because
yours went bad, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.
>It was stated that a company called "Slipstream" distributes it as Public Domain. Non-Commodore people have been debating this to death because 1.3 is "dead"
>and they say it can not be purchased any more.
If anyone has the address and phone number of this company, please
email it to me so I can forward it to our legal department.
>Apparently the 1000 cannot use 2.0 ROMS? The debate started when someone said
>that a friend acquired a 1000, but no Kickstart 1.3 software for it and can't
>run the machine without it.
I believe you can buy third-party ROM-Your-A1000 things that will
accept the 512K 2.0 ROMs. Try DKB's "KwikStart II" 313-960-8750.
It lets you put in 1.3 AND 2.0 ROMs.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
/\/\ /\/\ Carolyn Scheppner - Technical Manager - CATS U.S.
( ^^ ) ( -- ) CATS - Commodore Applications and Technical Support
`--' `--' uunet!cbmvax!carolyn caro...@commodore.com BIX:cscheppner
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It'll be interesting to see what happens..
My guess is that Cloanto is just trying to bluff your ISP into removing the files, as I would doubt they own the rights.
I believe (could definitely be wrong) that they have the rights to distribute Workbench, and probably only for use in their emulation distribution.
If that's the case, they wouldn't be the ones to get you to stop.
It would be like Amazon telling you to remove Harry Potter from your website (assuming you had the book to DL) because they also sell it.
Wouldn't happen. It would have to be the copyright owner (or whomever the copyright owner has delegated those rights to) to issue that statement.
Especially with all the "grey area" involved in the ownership..
Now, that doesn't mean your ISP won't cave and remove the files.
That type of thing (not the owner sending cease letters) happens all the time, and frequently works..
desiv
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Very interesting. It seems that Commodore's own Tech support didn't know for sure whether they could supply 1.3 Kickstart discs in 1993, ("It may be possible for Commodore dealers ..." - Note "may", rather than "is") & that they didn't have a problem with someone acquiring them from a 'friend', although they DID appear to have issues with WorkBench discs being copied & offered publicly.
Does anyone know if they ever took action against "Slipstream" ?
Of course, it's up to any business how it protects it's copyrights (or not, as the case may be) but it seems to me that Cloanto might be heading up a blind alley if they are trying to block the copying of REAL WorkBench discs with a license that would appear only to cover an emulated environment, especially as they are offering no practical (or legal ?) alternative.
Quite simply, if no one is going to offer a legal route to obtain WB discs then there seems to be no alternative but to obtain them illegally. Whoops ! I mean "from a friend" ;-)
If C= couldn't supply the discs 18 years ago, what chance of it happening now ?
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It has become quite clear to me, that for years now there has been some very dubious claims by certain parties about the ownership of Workbench 1.3 to 3.1 and it would seem that just because certain parties have claimed this that folk have taken it as the truth...
Unfortunately, that's all it takes in a lot of these situations - just make enough noise, and an ISP will jump at your say-so whether you actually own the rights to something or not (or even when it's protected by fair-use laws, as with a lot of parody material.)
Quite simply, if no one is going to offer a legal route to obtain WB discs then there seems to be no alternative but to obtain them illegally. Whoops ! I mean "from a friend" ;-)
If C= couldn't supply the discs 18 years ago, what chance of it happening now ?
But Fraggle! Don't you know, you can simply buy Amiga Forever! It's a high-quality emulation package! Who cares if it doesn't actually fit your needs at all!
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"But Fraggle! Don't you know, you can simply buy Amiga Forever! It's a high-quality emulation package!"
Indeed I could, commodorejohn, but it doesn't appear to contain anything I can't get elsewhere for free. Whoops again ! I mean "from a friend" ;-)
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I think this is a good question. If I need Amiga OS discs for may A1200 due to mine going bad, where or how would I get replacements? ADFs don't really help when a floppy is needed.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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No further mention of Slipstream related to Workbench disk on usenet or other internet searches. I suspect Slipstream may have been the handle of a user uploading workbench "binary" text files to usenet back in the day.
CBM may have been relaxed back in '93 about sharing your disks, but if they'd lasted to see today's current mass internet sharing I bet they would have taken on a whole different attitude.
Franko if you'd been around here back during the AInc/Hyperion battles, your mischeif making sure would have given things an interesting twist. Still could I guess. :)
Plaz
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All this is just crap. I take the position that if someone wants a Kickstart or Workbench disk for a machine that originally shipped with said disk, they should be able to get a working copy. Period. Just like what commodore said about the Amiga 1000 kickstart disk. You have to view it as this. The machine came with a license for those disks. Does that mean that you can make a copy of Workbench 3.1 for a person with an A500 or 2000? No. They should buy a Workbench 3.1 set with ROM from any available dealer (Amikit) But an A1000 or A500 user looking to get a working set of Workbench 1.3 disks for an old machine that was in the closet for 20 years, should be able to get a copy with no BS. Even with Amiga Forever!! Period. Just my 2 cents.
I actually own all of the OS's in original disk format, and I also have the complete Workbench TOSEC on CDR ;)
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All this is just crap. I take the position that if someone wants a Kickstart or Workbench disk for a machine that originally shipped with said disk, they should be able to get a working copy. Period. Just like what commodore said about the Amiga 1000 kickstart disk. You have to view it as this. The machine came with a license for those disks. Does that mean that you can make a copy of Workbench 3.1 for a person with an A500 or 2000? No. They should buy a Workbench 3.1 set with ROM from any available dealer (Amikit) But an A1000 or A500 user looking to get a working set of Workbench 1.3 disks for an old machine that was in the closet for 20 years, should be able to get a copy with no BS. Even with Amiga Forever!! Period. Just my 2 cents.
I actually own all of the OS's in original disk format, and I also have the complete Workbench TOSEC on CDR ;)
I agree. I've owned machines with running WB1.2, 1.3, 2.0, 3.0, 3.1, 3.5 and 3.9 over the years all with original Workbench disks and all either supplies with the correct ROMs or upgraded with genuine replacement ROMs.
Now the question is, how "right" is it for me to transfer a copy of a ROM and Workench onto one of my FPGA Amigas (C-One, Minimig, Chameleon64 and FPGA Arcade)?
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So now it's a case of waiting to see if Cloanto can produce legal proof to back up their complaint... :)
I don't really see what Cloanto has to do with this. I was under the impression they had a license to distribute the ROMs from someone other entity. Are they trying to stop you on someone else's behalf?
So what if they have a something showing they can distribute ADFs? OK. Yeah. What has that got to with anyone else? Maybe a 1,000,000 other people have a license to distribute ADFs as well.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/Pages/index.aspx
Look I am a registered OEM, with MS. Anyone can register. I can sell systems and distribute Windows as part of my computer packages. Like Cloanto includes ADFs as part of their emulation packages.
Can I go into BestBuy and tell them to stop selling Windows because I have an agreement with MS to distribute Windows? Can I sue other people that are selling Windows because I have an agreement with MS to distribute Windows?
Is Workbench now owned by Cloanto or something? I guess maybe that is what the documents will show if they provide anything at all. Very strange Cloanto.
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From what I gather, Cloanto has been playing freelance copyright police for Amiga, Inc. out of some misguided Stockholm syndrome or something. Which raises the further question of just what kind of action they could even take, beyond making noise at Franko's ISP, since they're not even the alleged rights-holders...
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Now the question is, how "right" is it for me to transfer a copy of a ROM and Workench onto one of my FPGA Amigas (C-One, Minimig, Chameleon64 and FPGA Arcade)?
Legally:
Depends on where you live. In the US it's completely legal for you to dump a rom and disks and then use it in an fpga amiga, it would come under fair use. You would have trouble distributing it so others could do the same, if someone noticed who held the copyright.
In the UK it's different, we don't have laws that allow such behavior at all. However you don't get the police knocking on your door if you're making a copy of something you own for personal use. If you ended up in court then the case would get dismissed for time wasting.
Morally:
Yes, why not?
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This thread went from horrible to interesting in the last few pages. If it turns out that Cloanto doesn't have shit to back their IP claims up, something good will come out of it! As for me, I'll continue sourcing disks and rom images from TOSEC sets or using google.
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... If it turns out that Cloanto doesn't have shit to back their IP claims up, something good will come out of it!.
Well, all that would really prove is that Cloanto would be overstepping their license, and they might be in trouble for filing false takedown claims, but that's unlikely.
Someone still owns it, of course, it's all so muddled, it's possible that whoever it is doesn't realize that they own it. ;-)
desiv
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Sorry for following one of Franko's posts yet again, I don't want it look like we're becoming a double act, lol. ;-)
The way I read it is that Cloanto have a license to distribute WorkBench for use in emulation, but not for use on real Amiga hardware.
I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that if they don't have the right to distribute original WorkBench discs, then they don't have a mandate to prevent anyone else from doing so - It would be no different to ME telling Franko to stop doing it.
As desiv says, it looks very much like they are overstepping their license by filing a takedown claim against Franko - Only the true copyright holders can do that, I believe.
This raises further questions, because users of genuine Amiga hardware must surely have a right to possess the software that was originally supplied with the machine & which is vital to the machine's operation ? Are the copyright holders obliged to make the discs available at a reasonable cost ? Are they interested ? (I think we all know the answer to that one, lol ;-)
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Workbench for everyone! wheee
"Affanculo, non abbiamo nulla!" -Cloanto
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Or you could use buy Amiga Forever 2011 and not share.
Already got Amiga Forever, got it for free even, by Cloanto themselves. I'm just saying that Rapidshare and the like are tedious stuff.
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Workbench for everyone! wheee
"Affanculo, non abbiamo nulla!" -Cloanto
Actually, the thing on Amiga Forever that interests me the least is the software. What I really like is all the extra fluff, videos, interviews etc.
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In 2006 Cloanto claim they got an extended license to be able to create the 3.X kickstart, which in all essence is a 3.9 kickstart. I'm curios on who it was that gave them license for this.
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Someone still owns it, of course, it's all so muddled, it's possible that whoever it is doesn't realize that they own it. ;-)
desiv
My theory now is that Franko actually does and he's just leading us on a merry little chase. :D
Plaz
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My theory now is that Franko actually does and he's just leading us on a merry little chase. :D
Plaz
Imagine if Franko actually turned out to be Barry Altman under a second account! :eek:
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I don't think Cloanto is that big of an organization. I would be quite surprised if they had even one in-house lawyer.
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Update?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Gee, it's almost like they don't actually have legal grounds for complaint...
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I may not see eye to eye with Franko on a lot of things, but, this is a good thing he is doing. I don't think the situation is nearly as muddy as it is made out to be. Just like many complex problems, breaking it down into simple components makes it simple.
We know who originally owned the Kickstarts. We know who claims to own them now. So, start with the current claimants, and work your way back. The problem is that no one wants to take the risk involved in that endevore.
If Franko is willing to be the champion for the job, then good for all of us. I suspect that we will find that either a liquidated company dissolved without transferring the rights, or it is actually owned by someone that just doesn't care.
Who, knows. If Franko can track down the actual owners, it might have a little enough value that it could be bought out by the community. I do wonder what happens if it is determined that it was never transferred away from a company that has been dissolved.
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The interesting Saga continues :D
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I may not see eye to eye with Franko on a lot of things, but, this is a good thing he is doing.
We haven't agreed in the past but on this topic, we are in complete agreement :)
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Since I told my site hosts (NamesCo) to provide me with details of who complained and why, which turned out to be Cloanto on the grounds of copyright infringement and I then asked their legal dept to demand Cloanto provide proof of an legal claim they may have, there hasn't been a dicky bird out of Cloanto... :)
Cloanto have failed to back up their complaint or provide NamesCo with any legal documentation that would validate their complaint so the Workbench Disk Sets will remain free to download on my site until the actual copyright owners complain and can back up their complaint... :)
If whomever does own the copyrights complains and an agreement cannot be reached for a distribution licence then I have made up my mind that I will challenge any future complaints with legal action... :)
Time this farce was put to rest once and for all I reckon... :)
They're not the copyright holders! Only Gateway, Amiga Inc or Hyperion could possibly challenge you.
Cloanto have as much shit coming out of their mouth as out of their crap overpriced DVDs
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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http://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/
1997-1998: Patents and Trademarks, But No Copyrights?
On April 20, 1995, after a number of iterations, and bidding in agreement and with the backing of some Asian companies, ESCOM AG acquired certain assets from the liquidation of the Commodore-Amiga companies. These same Asian companies in return received from ESCOM certain rights (including that to publish the Amiga operating system) over certain Asian territories [7].
In 1997, intersecting Gateway's acquisition of certain Amiga-related assets from ESCOM, a German appeals court (Oberlandesgericht Celle, judgment 13 U 97/97), after a review that included the contracts between the "Commodore-Amiga Group" and ESCOM AG, and while recognizing that for example patents were transferred between Commodore-Amiga and ESCOM, also concluded [72][73][14] that there was no indication that any copyrights for the Amiga operating system itself had been transferred to ESCOM.
In 1998, possibly in an attempt to "repair" the situation that had been exposed by the 1997 Celle judgment, ESCOM's trustee Mr. Bernhard Hembach signed three "$1" contracts [205][206][207] that first assigned the copyrights of the late Commodore Business Machines, Inc. (Delaware) and Commodore-Amiga, Inc. (California) to ESCOM, and then transferred the same again to Gateway's Amiga company. On November 3, 1998, the three contracts were signed by Mr. Bernhard Hembach on behalf of all parties, after which they were filed at the US Copyright Office [203].
According to these documents, with three signatures by one and the same person (a recurring pattern in "Amiga" matters), and for the total amount of three US dollars, the copyrights over the Amiga OS (and some other publications) changed hands twice on the same day.
The German notary public who notarized the procedure also noted in the documents that he recognized the authority of Mr. Bernhard Hembach to enter into the Copyright assignment agreements on behalf of the (defunct) two Commodore companies on the basis of the 1995 "Trademark Assignment" agreement [199] between the Commodore companies and ESCOM. This would seem to reinforce the Celle judgment, as it confirms that in spite of another year having passed by, both ESCOM and Gateway still had nothing more in their hands than references to patents and trademarks (but not to copyrights).
The statement by the notary public exposed a potentially troubling detail: how could a trademark assignment contract be used to assign the copyrights?
Did the German notary public understand the difference between a trademark and a copyright?
Did the US Copyright Office understand what the German notary public had written?
Did the US law firm who made new assignment filings in 2007 [203] understand the German documents it was relying on?
Would a transfer out of two already-defunct companies [204][208] have been permissible in the first place?
One of the contracts [206] even referenced and incorrect company, mentioning a Delaware entity instead of the California [204] copyright owner.
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So although there is still time yet, it's looking like anyone who want's too, can put Workbench 1.3 to 3.1 up on their sites for download as whomever does own the copyright doesn't seem to care about it anymore... :)
Why isn't WB 1.3 on your site yet Franko?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Simple my 1.3 disk are knackered... :)
I have asked if anyone still has the original 1.3 disks that I could use but so far everyone who's sent me ADFs have sent the ones from Cloantos Amiga Forever (which I already own) and I wouldn't want to upset Cloanto by putting their disks on my site.. :)
How do you make ADF? I'll give it a go
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How do I check if mine are from Cloanto?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Wow Franko, I think you may be getting somewhere in unravelling things. I do hope that no trouble arises in any of this. Namesco? As in internet domain name hosting? , or is it something else?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I think you may be getting somewhere in unravelling things.
Just to get this straight: forcing Cloanto - which is the private Amiga hobby of two long term Amiga supporters who released their major commercial application (PPaint) for free on Aminet before Franko could even walk - into a legal battle just because they happen to disagree with his bullshit is a good thing now?
Way to go.
I'll go and sue amiga.org now, because I dislike Franko. Give me a minute, I'll open a thread where my supporters can post how much they adore me.
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Well, if they have the rights and can back it up, all is well.
If they don't, then they've been ripping people off on false premises.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Just to get this straight: forcing Cloanto - which is the private Amiga hobby of two long term Amiga supporters who released their major commercial application (PPaint) for free on Aminet before Franko could even walk - into a legal battle just because they happen to disagree with his bullshit is a good thing now?
Why should they get to say who can or can't download something they don't even own, and even if they had the rights to, have decided to not make available? I personally find their available products useless, not wanting to go with the "Amiga-on-a-PC" thing, and the fact that they would prevent other people with real Amigas from using them due to their old disks getting corrupted only lessens my respect for them. Profiteering control freaks!
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Just to get this straight
er.. No, you missed the point... :confused:
Perhaps you should re-read the thread..
desiv
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Just to get this straight: forcing Cloanto - which is the private Amiga hobby of two long term Amiga supporters who released their major commercial application (PPaint) for free on Aminet before Franko could even walk - into a legal battle just because they happen to disagree with his bullshit is a good thing now?
Oy, more "worship Cloanto, for lo, they are our only true friend" tripe? They're not even the alleged owners, they're just playing freelance copyright police for them out of some misguided sense of obligation. I don't have any particular ill will towards them, but if they're going to go badgering people with takedown notices, they damn well ought to have something to back it up, or it's just empty sound and fury.
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And to point out something, it doesn't have to be Franko vs Cloanto.
To me, it's "Franko's idea about Workbench disk images for real Amigas" vs "Cloanto's idea about his distribution of said images."
What I mean by that is:
I like Cloanto..
I like Amiga Forever..
I like PPaint...
I think Cloanto is a net positive for the Amiga community..
AND
I think Franko might be right about disk images for Workbench for real Amigas.
desiv
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Wow ! AmigaHeretic's post is VERY informative & shows what a mess the whole thing is.
The way I read it, it's perfectly possible that the copyrights were never part of the deal. This would make a certain amount of sense, because the patents & trademarks may (at that time) have been seen as carrying a value due to the Commodore brand, which was still fresh in the public's memory, & might have been profitably revived, while the copyrights may have been seen as representing little or no value - Even at that time it was obvious that (if it were to be a serious contender) the Amiga needed a major hardware & OS upgrade, so why spend money on buying copyrights to something that would soon be left behind ?
Naturally, if the copyrights were not included in ESCOM's purchase, then they could not have been transferred from ESCOM to Gateway or anyone else later.
Further transfers, which may or may not have been properly concluded, & particularly that in 2007, appear to throw even more doubt upon the current ownership of CBM's copyrights.
@ cgutjahr
Your post makes no sense at all. Being long term Amiga supporters & releasing free software does not give Cloanto ownership of the relevant copyrights. If they choose to make a takedown claim against Franko based purely on their over-zealous interpretation of their license terms, then upon their own heads be it.
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Let me say I have nothing against Cloanto, I bought one copy of Amiga Forever and was gifted a newer one by a friend.
I have to agree, Cloanto is on shaky ground.
Just because they have a license to distribute, I don't believe that gives them the ability to file DMCA claims for instance. That is a right the copyright holder has and (I think) it's legally punishable to file a DMCA notice on copyrights you knowingly don't own.
If they are just reporting to your ISP that you are making pirated software available, that's legal, but kind of a dick move given the current state of things.
I'd like to see who really has the copyright, it's a shame you almost have to bait people into court to prove it.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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As the disks Franko is concerned with only have application in 'legacy Amiga's, AND there are no other machines that could use the (discounting the MInimig). it only seems far to allow legacy users to obtain backup of thier software.
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1) Lots of people have contributed free apps, games or contributed to amiga bounties. It does not give any of those people the right to hold amiga roms and workbench disks hostage forever.
2) Amiga forever is nice, but if the amiga grave robbers like cloanto didn't hold on to 20+ year old roms and disk sets, no one would need it.
3) Cloanto does not own anything. They have or had a liscence from the other amiga grave robbers to distribute the roms and disk sets. Of course they have a vested financial interest, which is why they are complaining about franko's site. They wish to continue to hold these things hostage for their own profit forever apparently.
4) Kudos to Franko for standing up to the amiga grave robbers. Make them prove ownership or tell them to golly off. Its about time someone did that. I think we should ALL host these files and let them try and stop everyone. They can't. The graverobbers have made enough money off the corpse of amiga. Lets take these things back.
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I found an old web page that might help if you have a copy of Amiga + magazine from 3/2000. All WB disk to 2 were on the cover disk. I do not have a copy.
# Zurück zur Hauptseite #
· ATTENTION · ACHTUNG · ATTENTION ·
home.t-online.de/home/rbenda/xxx.html
Because of reactivated copyrights of the new AMIGA owner, this file is no
longer available on this website. If you need support for defective
diskettes etc., please contact "http://www.amiga.de" or "http://www.cloanto.com".
All OS and WB files till version 2.0 are released on the new Amiga+ (3/2000)
magazine cover cd with permission of Amiga International (Germany). CD32 developer
files are released with the permission of Amiga International on the first
"CD32 Outside" magazine cover cd. You can also find UAE with OS 1.3/3.0 and
workbench 3.0 files on the "PC-Magazin" cover cd, march/2000.
Cloanto has now also realeased a cd called "Amiga forever plus pack" which
contains the os versions 1.0 - 2.04.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aufgrund der Reaktivierung der verschiedenen Copyrights des neuen Inhabers der
Marke "AMIGA", ist diese Datei auf dieser Webseite nicht mehr zu finden. Bei
Problemen mit Disketten etc. wenden Sie sich bitte direkt an
"http://www.amiga.de" oder "http://www.cloanto.com".
Eine installierbare Version von UAE mit Kickstart 1.3/3.0 und der Workbench 3.0
finden Sie auch auf der Heft-CD der Zeitschrift "PC-Magazin", Ausgabe März 2000.
OS-Dateien bis zu den Versionen 2.0 sind mit Genehmigung von Amiga International
(Deutschland) auf der aktuellen Heft-CD der Amiga+, Ausgabe 3/2000 zu finden.
CD32 Entwickler Dateien befinden sich auf der Heft-CD zur ersten Ausgabe des
"CD32 Outside" Magazins, ebenfalls mit Genehmigung durch Amiga International.
Inzwischen hat Cloanto auch eine CD mit dem Namen "Amiga Forever Plus Pack" auf
den Markt gebracht. Sie beinhaltet Kickstart und Workbench 1.0 - 2.04.
© 10.12.2000 by Rainer Benda, Computer & Zubehör
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I'm impressed ! However, I feel that some questions need answering.
Can a copyright really be "reactivated" ? How is this possible ? You see, as I understand it, if a copyright lapses, then it's subject becomes Public Domain, & if something is Public Domain for even ONE second, then it's Public Domain forever afterwards, & no one can claim it as belonging only to themselves.
Can't contact Amiga International (Germany) as this was a division of Gateway, who no longer own any Amiga property, & why, if Cloanto have a license to distribute genuine WB discs, have they not made this apparent ?
They've obviously been watching this thread & know what the issues are, so why not speak up & let everyone know that the discs are (or should be) available from them ?
What does their silence tell us ?
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Just to get this straight: forcing Cloanto - which is the private Amiga hobby of two long term Amiga supporters who released their major commercial application (PPaint) for free on Aminet before Franko could even walk - into a legal battle just because they happen to disagree with his bullshit is a good thing now?
Way to go.
I'll go and sue amiga.org now, because I dislike Franko. Give me a minute, I'll open a thread where my supporters can post how much they adore me.
For the record, I bought my own 3.1 disks from an Amiga dealer. And have purchased multiple revisions of Cloantro products. As far as people learning to walk; It is possible that when I was actively programming on a Pet4032 that there were many people in the world not walking yet.
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Yup the company who hosts my site is called NamesCo, even their legal dept is finding this whole Amiga copyrights thing interesting as from what they can make of it so far it's a complete and utter mess... :)
But then all of us Amiga users already knew that... :D
It's even better if they are outsiders waiting for the right paperwork legally speaking, if it isn't technically up to scratch that's all they need to know.
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To me, it's "Franko's idea about Workbench disk images for real Amigas" vs "Cloanto's idea about his distribution of said images."
There are two possible outcomes for this whole bullshit:
1. Cloanto can convince Franko's hoster to take down the ROMs and cut off his balls. They will have wasted their own time and ressources to deal with him, I doubt Franko's going to pay their expenses. Is there anything positive about this particular outcome?
or
2. Cloanto can not convince Franko's hoster. We will still not know who really owns the copyright (we already know Cloanto doesn't), Workbench disk images will still not be Public Domain and you'll still not be allowed to post links to them on amiga.org. You will still be able to ask Google and download them anyway. Perhaps I'm missing something, but where's the big achievement here?
Perhaps somebody can try to explain this to me, because I don't get it. Not to mention the fact that the consensus here seems to be: "Research sucks, let's behave like twelve years olds".
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1. Cloanto can convince Franko's hoster to take down the ROMs and cut off his balls. They will have wasted their own time and ressources to deal with him, I doubt Franko's going to pay their expenses. Is there anything positive about this particular outcome?
Yes: petty freelance copyright police will have wasted time and money on a pointless activity, as they deserve.
2. Cloanto can not convince Franko's hoster. We will still not know who really owns the copyright (we already know Cloanto doesn't), Workbench disk images will still not be Public Domain and you'll still not be allowed to post links to them on amiga.org. You will still be able to ask Google and download them anyway. Perhaps I'm missing something, but where's the big achievement here?
The small achievement would be getting Cloanto to admit to having no grounds for this takedown notice. The larger one would be if it attracted the attention of whoever does hold the copyright, so that they can be dealt with, as Franko has stated all along is his intention.
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cgutjahr , basically Cloanto is trying to dictate to us on how we can get our replacement disks (by being quick to state that people should take off the workbench disk when they actually don't have any rights to do so) i have Original 1.2,1.3,1.3.3,2.04,2.05,3.0 and 3.1 Disks BUT most of them are not working you trying to tell me i am not allowed to get these disk even if i have bought them and still have them BUT they are not working? i bought a copy of amiga forever 2006 long ago waste of money if you ask me. They don't have anything that interests me or do anything that i can benefit from as a classic Amiga user quite frankly i don't give a flying F*** about them all i want is my disk working so i can boot up my system (yes i know you can get them from anywhere but i want originals that work).
You talk high and mighty but do you actually use a classic amiga at all??
All these copyright mafia i actually wonder if they even have classic Amiga's or actually use them on a daily or weekly basis because if they did they wouldn't open there mouths so much citing useless garbage.
Anyway go Franko GO!
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Perhaps somebody can try to explain this to me, because I don't get it. Not to mention the fact that the consensus here seems to be: "Research sucks, let's behave like twelve years olds".
What is your point, cupcake? You seriously can't be bothered to read this thread from the very beginning? If you are too stupid to open your eyes, perhaps you shouldn't open your mouth.
But there is an easy solution. Go to the first post in this thread. Read it. Then read the second post. Then read every { x | x ∈ ℕ } posts until finished.
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What a massive sense of entitlement some folks around here have.
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and you'll still not be allowed to post links to them on amiga.org.
That's all this was ever about.
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What a massive sense of entitlement some folks around here have.
Yeah, Cloanto are being such pricks about this, thinking that because they paid a license fee they're supposed to be the only game in town...but hey, whatyagonnado?
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What a massive sense of entitlement some folks around here have.
You better believe it buddy....
I am entitled to use my Amiga's without having to rely on faulty disks if that means downloading or buying them so be it.
Without some smartass who hasn't touch a classic Amiga for ages or copyright mafia sprouting rubbish.
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Yeah, Cloanto are being such pricks about this, thinking that because they paid a license fee they're supposed to be the only game in town...but hey, whatyagonnado?
Pricks? Little harsh don't you think? They state that they're legally and contractually obligated to do something about piracy. Have you read the private agreement between Colanto and the copyright owner? It could very well be that they forfeit their license to the material if they overlook piracy, or worse.
Having a license to distribute copyrighted material does not make a company "the enemy".
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That's all this was ever about.
Really? That's all you see? You've missed most of the fun.... :lol:
(nuance)
desiv
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Personally, I think cloanto has taken advantage of the whole situation for years and years too long. I think they LIKE the fact that amiga ip has changed hands so many times. This makes it very hard for anyone to prove that their claims to the roms, disk images and so forth are no longer valid.
Its obvious they do go to extremes to try and protect their own selfish financial interests. Franko's site is not the first one they made complaints about. They complain to service providers EVERYTIME someone posts a rom or disk image relating to amiga OS.
I think its kind of funny they report people for copyright infringement when they have no proof of ownership. Franko is lucky, many webspace providers would just force the user to take down any content someone complains about.
Open challenge to cloanto : Post legal proof in word document or pdf format that proves you have a right to sell the roms or disk sets.
They will never do that. The entity they made the original agreement with no longer even exists. They have no legal right to sell roms or disk sets, let alone stop someone else from doing so (or giving it away as free downloads)
A side note, I will be selling my new emulation dvd entitled "Fucking amiga fans forever". The set will include roms, disk images and pictures of the corvette I'm going to buy by robbing every amiga fan that wants to run amiga in emulation for 15+ years.
I will never provide anyone with proof I have the right to do so, but since it worked for cloanto, I should be fine.
Steven
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Pricks? Little harsh don't you think? They state that they're legally and contractually obligated to do something about piracy. Have you read the private agreement between Colanto and the copyright owner? It could very well be that they forfeit their license to the material if they overlook piracy, or worse.
They certainly aren't legally obligated to do so, and while I would have some sympathy if they've signed themselves into a stupid agreement that deputizes and burdens them to do Amiga, Inc.'s work for them, the fact remains that they're still taking (vague, groundless) action against actual Amiga users on behalf of one of the vulture companies that have been the Amiga community's biggest source of problems since Commodore bit it.
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@Franko
I did not close the other thread. If you have suggestions for feature improvements to the excellent Amiga Forever 2011 Premil
um package please contact the developers with you feedback and requests.
I am realy enjoying reading this thread, however I use AmiKit and OS3.9 runing on WinUAE. I did purchase Amiga Forever 2011 because I neded those rom images hehe. I tried some of the images available on the net, but most do not work right. Now back to this thread - interesting stuff :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Those -=Moderated=- are at it again i really hope they get bankrupted useless products for people to lazy to work out how to use winuae. They can't prove anything to your Domain host so they go for easy target like mediafire.
This is really showing how petty and stupid they are, hmmm can't but imagine will not look good for the people who actually buy their crap to be associated with such a small time company.
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What a massive sense of entitlement some folks around here have.
Yes, I totally agree.
Their understanding of the laws (or lack thereof) is amazing too.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I wouldn't have anything to do with Cloantos even pirating their crap would be a waste of bandwidth and time.
Do you get the last email i sent you hope it helps.
P.S. The whole DVD is easily downloaded from anywhere anyway and if you have any problems then "don't" contact me because I "can't" help you.
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And Amigadave i like you and all BUT what law??
Do Craptos own the rights to workbench??? If so why haven't they made them available to buy or as a free download for classic Amiga users, everyone keeps forgetting we are not talking about setting up WINUAE on a PC or Mac, we are talking about CLASSIC AMIGA'S and i for one want to have original WB disks.
Remember i have the originals but a few of the disks don't work anymore so i do have a RIGHT to have a replacement if they are claiming ownership then as a business they have to honour the disk and software that was already bought and provide me with a means to get new WB sets.
P.S. But we all know they can't do that as they have no rights to anything except the useless crap for windows (which anyone with a brain can do after all most of us HAVE Classic Amiga and can copy YOUR Kickstarts to the PC for your own use and if you don't have them, then it will be cheaper to buy the relevant kickstarts from an Amiga retailer.)
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You know, I didn't start following this with any ill will towards Cloanto, but nothing says "sniveling brown-noser" like switching targets when you're called on to produce evidence...
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You know, I didn't start following this with any ill will towards Cloanto, but nothing says "sniveling brown-noser" like switching targets when you're called on to produce evidence...
Actually believe or not me neither BUT they are starting to really bug me I find what they are doing petty like a bully boy trying to argue with a smart kids but being dumb has no come back or eloquence to argue so they resort Threats or violence knowing full well they aren't bright enough to argue and have no leg to stand on.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I have now been in touch with MediaFire to inform them that later today my Solicitors will be demanding from them proof of the legitimacy of Cloantos complaint and if no proof has been provided then I shall instruct my Solicitors to begin taking legal action against all parties involved here... :)
Franko... are you just using the free MediaFire service, or do you have a paid contract with them? If it is the free service (and even if it's not) are they actually obliged to host any legal file? Perhaps they're within their legal rights to decline to host specific files, even if said files haven't been proven to be illegal?
Just thinking that this could be a loophole, perhaps to get round it you'd need to be hosting the files on your own webspace?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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It's a sorry and very sad state of affairs when a company like Cloanto who produces PC software goes to all this bother to prevent remaining Amiga users from being able to enjoy their hobby in relative peace. Obviously just for the sake of making money from PC users and are quite happy to tread all over genuine Amiga hardware users in the process, all this just to make a quick buck despite the damage it causes to real Amiga enthusiasts... :(
You sir are talking out of your -=Moderated=-. Cloanto has been contributing to Amiga since 1986. They even have their own directory in aminet. They've released their Amiga software for free (including the excellent Personal Paint). Just the cloanto web page alone is an invaluable source information, say for example http://www.amigaforever.com/tutorials/migration/
Your attempts to paint them as some evil PC guys is laughable.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Why thank you sir for your usual laughable trite remarks... :D
You didn't refute any of those remarks. Why not?
As for Cloanto trying to prevent your copyright infringement.. They're protecting their investment. I would do the same.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Some points:
1. I would like little more than to see Amiga Inc. F'ked over.
BUT
2. The TOS of this site clearly state "No Warez", and we have all abided by these rules for over 10 years!
3. Cloanto have done nothing wrong.
4. Cloanto have helped the Amiga community far more than Franko and his extremely selfish, "If I don't care, it doesn't matter" attitude.
5. The "Copyright Police" as they are being refered to in this thread, are probably the last people to actually contribute anything to the Amiga platform.
I have to say I think Franko is being a -=Moderated=-, he could have worked with Cloanto and figured out how to resolve this (as I have stated many times already), but no, he decides to use the very method that he criticised C=USA for using.
Why are you being such a-=Moderated=-? Eh?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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@Franko
Oh?! You seem offended?! Yet state no reason why...
And I'm not sure why you think it is Cloanto's responsibility to come to you about your IP theft, they have a publicly available statement that details what actions they are obligated to take.
If you want to illegally distribute IP for which they have a licence, then it is your responsibility to contact them if you feel it is within your rights to steal this IP. I have stated on numerous occasions what you need to do.
You choose to take the course of action which you have made great pains to express your displeasure over, regarding Commodore USA... I don't ask for much, but some consistency would be nice.
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and there is nothing in your statement for me to comment on that I didn't already know.
From this we can conclude that you intentionally try to demonize them.
Cloanto being exposed for what they really are
Exposed for being a sensible business? I knew that already. It would be stupid for Cloanto not to defend their rights.
Now I know some of you seem to regard yourselves as some kind of legal experts in all fields mentioned on this site
Copyright is quite simple topic. What you're doing is deliberate copyright infringement in an attempt to get attention. Now that you got it, you started a deliberate smear campaign against whoever tried to defend their legal rights. You don't need to be a legal expert to see though your hypocrisy.
but the fact is you are nothing more than idiots who think your holier than though morals should be imposed on the rest of us... :lol:
Forums have rules that are not necessarily related to any laws or morals. As far as I am concerned you can be as stupid as you like outside amiga.org, I couldn't care less.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Once again you're wrong as usual, I have tried to contact everyone who may own the legal rights to Workbench or the ability to issue of a distribution licence with no response
Anyone with an understanding of the copyright law would conclude that they do not have the right to distribute the content then.
No-one is obliged to answer anyone regarding licensing requests. Not answering does not make it legal to distribute the content.
This isn't rocket science.
I fail to understand what CUSA has to do with any of this... :confused:
CUSA used the very same tactic you use. They redistributed copyrighted material without proper license. When confronted with the fact they used the very same excuse you now use.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Where you're concerned then that doesn't matter one bit to me personally and where I choose to be (in your opinion) as stupid as I like is my business not yours... ;)
Most certainly. I'm just a user here, and you can certainly ignore my wish that you'd take this nonsense (and yourself) somewhere else.
In my humble opinion this site would do better without your contribution.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I am not in this to make money from anyone...
Right, you're doing it for the attention. And for you it doesn't matter that in the process you smear one of the last remaining active amiga software companies (lets not kid ourself: cloanto would have been long dead had they not evolved to retromarket like they did)
Anyone owning a classic hasn't had any moral problems downloading the WB adfs before. They didn't need you as their white knight.
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To all, ONLY AMIGA MAKES IT POSSIBLE ;-)
Relax dudes, I think it must be possible to replace a corrupt disk at any time.
When C= / ESCOM sold your Amiga the OS disks where included so you payed for it already.
Real Amiga hardware users must have the right to replace the disk (just keep your originals save, you also can show the labels on the disk that there originals)
It’s the same when you buy a laptop with windows installed.
When your windows partition fails and you have not made a dvd factory backup from your windows then your laptop is dead FOREVER ?
No people just install from a friend's DVD or a illegal version of windows and uses their original key that’s on the laptop MS sticker, so then is’s regged again and uses windows again without problems
Windows came with the system so no problems , just like with the amiga disks.
So the real -=Moderated=- at is the company Cloanto , why not go in discussion or show there IP claim out into the open so all can see.
Just like a company !! walking over all peoples to make a few quick bucks out of the amiga community, and leave the real hardware Amiga user for dead, greedy spaghetti eaters.
I’m not taking sides here but I’m with Franko here all the way, We all have been pushed all over the place with companies that take our money after almost 3 decades the workbench must be free for all ;-).
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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a pitiful and shambolic mess that Amiga users have had to put up with for all these years from ... ignorant folk like yourself who are more interested in PC's than the Amiga
You certainly have the gift of clairvoyance. I salute thee, Nostradamus of our time...
Or not. If you're trying to make a fool of yourself you're doing quite well.
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Why did I not contact Cloanto... simple. they do not own the copyrights for Workbench or have the ability to sell or issue me with a legal distribution licence...
They do however hold the trademark for 'Workbench' in relation to a computer OS however, at least in the US where I think Mediafire is based?
http://aminet.net/package/docs/misc/Amiga-Trademarks So it seems you're infringing their trademark, even if not their copyright?
Anyone owning a classic hasn't had any moral problems downloading the WB adfs before.
On the other hand, they might well prefer not to have to resort to illegal sites in order to have to do so.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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So either their claim to this trademark is false/wrong, they don't have a claim for the Workbench trademark here in the UK or the UK Governments Intellectual Property Office is wrong... :)
I suspect it's not registered in the UK, however the company hosting your files (MediaFire) are based in the US where it is (apparently) registered. Won't that be an issue? (I'm not a legal expert so I don't know...)
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Well so that you can understand it NamesCo's legal dept who I believe have more knowledge than you or I in this department would disagree with you on that in this particular case... ;)
There isn't much to know about copyright. If you don't have a license then you can't distribute a copyright work. Just because you can't find someone to give you a license is no excuse.
If they know more than that, then what they know is probably wrong.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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There isn't much to know about copyright. If you don't have a license then you can't distribute a copyright work. Just because you can't find someone to give you a license is no excuse.
If they know more than that, then what they know is probably wrong.
You are wrong:
There is much more than that. For example there is copyright expiration, fair use, orphaned worK, etc.. And, the fact that law regarding copyright varies from country to country.
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There isn't much to know about copyright. If you don't have a license then you can't distribute a copyright work. Just because you can't find someone to give you a license is no excuse.
How does Cloanto know Franko doesn't have a license to distribute them? Did they ask? Or just complain?
Does CLoanto "own" the Copyright so do they even "have" the right to complain?
Flip side:
How do we know Cloanto have a license?
We don't own the copyright, so do we have a right to complain to Cloanto's ISP because we suspect they do not have a license to distribute and demand proof they do?
Second of all regarding Franko and a license for distributing copyright, I think you are missing the point. I think basically Franko is distributing these Workbench disks under "Public Domain".
Who's burden is it prove these are public domain?
Franko's that they are, or Cloanto's that that just have a license to distribute, or the "Unknown" copyright holder that they are still copyrighted?
I think the problem is here, it's possible Cloanto has a license to distribute Kickstart images and disks, but at the same time the license is either made by ill-intentioned crooks from AI that know they don't hold the copyright or just ignorant of the fact that the disks went into the public domain 15+ years ago.
Either way, worst case scenario, if the Workbench is still copyrighted, I fail to see how a third party that just a has a license to sell a product can act on a copyright holders behalf.
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While examples, lets go thru them in the context.
copyright expiration
That's typically 70-90 years after the death of the author, and thus doesn't apply here.
fair use
Clearly doesn't apply here.
orphaned work
This one doesn't exist in copyright law.
And, the fact that law regarding copyright varies from country to country.
Berne convention applies in most countries. There aren't any major differences I'd say.
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"Fucking amiga fans forever" My new amiga emulation package will soon be available. I'll never provide proof I have the rights to sell roms and disk images. I will however, cry like a bitch when someone posts them on their website for free download. I'll threaten those people but still never provide proof I have the rights to sell anything, or prevent others from giving the stuff away.
POST your proof you own the rights. I challenged you before to do it.
If you actually have the rights to sell the roms and disk images, why not provide proof when asked? Because its bullshit, you made a deal with some version of amiga ages and ages (and ages) ago.
They don't even have the rights to sell their product anymore. They just don't want anyone to know that because they like having a strangehold on the roms. Anyone wanting to run amiga os in an emulator is forced to buy from them. Thats bullshit.
Amiga grave robbing fucking slobs. Get a job and leave amiga classic users alone you fucking selfish self righteous cowards who won't even post here in your own defense. COWARDS.
Come on man, no one owns any rights to anything amiga at this point. Its a fucking quagmire of bullshit at this point. Cloanto, let it go and let people have the fucking roms and disk images if they want without paying you for the NOTHING. Especially if they want to only use it on classic.
Steven
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How does Cloanto know Franko doesn't have a license to distribute them?
The most obvious way would be to ask from the licensor.
Does CLoanto "own" the Copyright so do they even "have" the right to complain?
Most (if not all) contracts drafted by Amiga Inc appear to contain a clause that requires the other party to protect the rights of Amiga Inc. This could be seen in case of Amithlon for example (see http://www.amigamccc.org/journal/0206amit.htm). While pure speculation it's not far fetched to assume similar clause in the Cloanto contract.
We don't own the copyright, so do we have a right to complain to Cloanto's ISP because we suspect they do not have a license to distribute and demand proof they do?
You can always try, but in the end your claim won't have any legal merit.
Second of all regarding Franko and a license for distributing copyright, I think you are missing the point. I think basically Franko is distributing these Workbench disks under "Public Domain".
He has no right to place them in public domain.
Who's burden is it prove these are public domain?
Franko's, of course.
I think the problem is here, it's possible Cloanto has a license to distribute Kickstart images and disks, but at the same time the license is either made by ill-intentioned crooks from AI that know they don't hold the copyright or just ignorant of the fact that the disks went into the public domain 15+ years ago.
Either way, worst case scenario, if the Workbench is still copyrighted, I fail to see how a third party that just a has a license to sell a product can act on a copyright holders behalf.
If workbench or kickstart would be in public domain it would need to be clearly stated as such by the copyright holder. Since this is not the case they are not.
If there's no valid license then no-one can distribute the work, except the copyright holder. The default is to protect the rights of the author(s).
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While examples, lets go thru them in the context.
Problem is we don't know WHO the copyright holder is. Original Commodore? They don't care if we distribute disks. So problem for Franko there?
Petro Era Amiga? He gave Workbench away anyway! Written documented proof. It's PD anway! No problem there.
So who is the Copyright holder or is there one? Where these given to Public Domain as some suspect by Petro? Is Copyright still with original dead Commodore so, basically free to distribute anyway.
I feel bad for Cloanto that they probably got tricked by AI (like so many others) into thinking they "bought" a legit license or something, but we all know deep down that Amiga Inc., probably has NO claim to Kickstarts and Workbench.
I REMIND PEOPLE again. CLOANTO even if it is VALID, Cloanto's license is for EMULATION ONLY. Cloanto on their website states it is ILLEGAL to use those images on REAL HARDWARE.
So again I don't really see why Cloanto even give two shits about this anyway. This is legit hardware users just want 1 Fracking resouce to source all their old disks as the floppies go tits up. Who the FRACK reall cares for F sake?
My GOD!
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Please note that this is not about ROM image files, or anything else it simply about what would you consider the fairest and best way to be able to obtain Workbench Disks that you may need...
Two questions:
1) If it is not about ROMs, why are you offering ROMs for download on your site?
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z406/analogfiles/Piracy/commodorescotland-com-amiga-rom-download.png
2) If it is about helping honest Amiga owners who lost or damaged their original floppy disks, why are you not setting up a service where you ship actual Amiga floppy disks? You can't write an Amiga floppy disk from a Pc from the files you offer download, so what use are they if you cannot startup the Amiga?
Considering both 1 and 2, your whole proposition looks more like an excuse to attract attention, and for amiga.org to make some Google advertising money.
Copyright is not so difficult to understand. Even if Commodore lost the copyrights for some reason, it would have reverted to the authors, wouldn't it? There is no "public domain" here, except for you and all the ROMs, games, and the movie artwork and music files that you seem to "freely" use on your sites.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Franko's, of course.
I guess that's why we have lawyers.
If workbench or kickstart would be in public domain it would need to be clearly stated as such by the copyright holder. Since this is not the case they are not.
Well, it's been pointed out and linked to that Petro gave all 3.0 disks to PD basically (ask the lawyers not me for clarification) the readme and docs have been posted a dozen times already. There are other arguments for the rest.
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From the above policies of MediaFire then if Cloanto have failed to provide such evidence then MediaFire or myself can if we wish take the appropriate legal action. I have now instructed my Solicitors to contact MediaFire for the legal proof Cloanto would have had to provide for such a complaint and now await the results...
I wouldn't hold your breath. Thanks to all the scare-mongering about piracy in the early 2000s, mass-upload sites tend to jump like rabbits at the mere scent of a cease-and-desist, whether grounds are provided or not. They probably don't know any more about Cloanto's claims than you do.
As for Cloanto trying to prevent your copyright infringement.. They're protecting their investment. I would do the same.
Whether they paid for a license or not is their business - it has nothing whatsoever to do with their pissing on people who want actual Workbench disks for their actual Amigas, given that they don't even distribute working Workbench disks. People run off their mouths about how great Cloanto are and how they've been such a longtime friend of the community, but you know what? I don't care. They could be carrying the lovechild of Jay Miner himself and it still wouldn't make this action not petty and reprehensible.
There isn't much to know about copyright. If you don't have a license then you can't distribute a copyright work. Just because you can't find someone to give you a license is no excuse.
Fuck that. If they can't be bothered to give so much as one token response to an honest inquiry about the status of their copyright, then I don't see why anybody should care about stepping on their toes.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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registered the Trademark "WORKBENCH" on the 19th of April 2011... ;)
Cloanto Register the Trademark Workbench on 19th April 2011...
Go here to the United States Patent and Trademark Office
http://tess2.uspto.gov/
And they are going after you?
I wonder who they will see first? Hmm.. how many companies use the term "Workbench" as it relates to computers???
Well there's:
-Hyperion! Watch out guys!
-mysql has Workbench 5.2.33 (latest version)
-Amiga Inc. has Workbench 5 (yet to be release though) :roflmao:
-Workbench Software http://www.workbenchsoftware.com/ Hell better go after these guys for sure!
- Workbench Soft And these guys! http://www.workbenchsoft.com/ How dare these guys infringe your copyright 10 years before you think to register it!
Doesn't Maya call there UI Workbench? Haven't used it in a while? I'm sure there are a dozen others.
:laughing:
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Ah yes, forgot all about this excellent FAQ cloanto has set up. See this:
Distribution of Amiga ROM and OS Files (http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-122)
And while we're at it, I think this confirms that Cloanto indeed has a license:
(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9630/screenshot20110518at180.png)
Source: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BxlY9g_OfLqDZTQyNGFkYzEtZDI5Zi00YzcxLThhODYtODcyZTg0M2I4MzQ1
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Originally Posted by psxphill (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=638630#post638630)
There isn't much to know about copyright. If you don't have a license then you can't distribute a copyright work. Just because you can't find someone to give you a license is no excuse.
Fuck that. If they can't be bothered to give so much as one token response to an honest inquiry about the status of their copyright, then I don't see why anybody should care about stepping on their toes.
__________________
I definitely agree. Come on cloanto, chime in and defend yourself.
Provide proof of why your acting like utter assholes. They have no reason other than pure GREED.
How much money are you going to make off the corpse before you just let people have free access to the roms or disk images?
I'm going to go find 3000 free hosting sites and post the roms and disk images everywhere.
Steven
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Well, well, well seems Cloanto have been lying to us all along, just received some very, very interesting information that Cloanto have been pulling a fast one on the Amiga community for years...
What "lies"? If you accuse someome of lying you could at least back it up with some evidence...
Besides, do you know the difference between a copyright and a registered trademark?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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in order to try and dig themselves out of the very large hole they now find themselves in Cloanto registered the Trademark "WORKBENCH" on the 19th of April 2011... ;)
Strange how they only got round to registering it on that date after trying to have us all believe they had owned such things for years previously.
They've only just registered the trademark 'Workbench' because it has only just been awarded them as part of the Amiga Inc vs Cloanto settlement.
http://www.commodore-amiga.org/forum/2-welcome-mat/1924-amiga-inc-vs-cloanto-uspto-proceeding-91183272?lang=en
It was for this reason that Commodore USA were unable to call their Amiga-themed Linux distro 'Workbench 5' as they had planned.
Don't think this is as much exciting news as you seem to think it is Franko.
EDIT: When did they ever try to convince anyone they held the trademark for Workbench in the past?
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I feel bad for Cloanto that they probably got tricked by AI (like so many others) into thinking they "bought" a legit license or something
This is part of the problem: You (as in: most of the Robin Hood types in this thread) don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Cloanto is distributing these files commercially since 1997. That's three years before McEwen-AmigaInc even existed. AFAIK, the only time they tried to get a license from AmigaInc was when they wanted to include OS 3.9 with Amiga Forever. That failed, so they licensed individual components from their respective authors and called the result "OS 3.X".
There's no evidence that they licensed anything from AmigaInc.
I REMIND PEOPLE again. CLOANTO even if it is VALID, Cloanto's license is for EMULATION ONLY. Cloanto on their website states it is ILLEGAL to use those images on REAL HARDWARE.
Don't use the term "illegal" in this context. It's bogus.
Who the FRACK reall cares for F sake?
Nobody cares, which is why the stuff is easily available for anybody who heard of this brand new search engine called Google.
The difference in this particular case is that it is Franko's stated goal to prove that the Workbench disks are PD. Cloanto simply have to react to this. Or as Piru put it: They're a sensible business, so they have to protect their investment.
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Why did I not contact Cloanto... simple. they do not own the copyrights for Workbench or have the ability to sell or issue me with a legal distribution licence... :)
So you are now admitting that you started all of this without even asking them? This is not what you said in your first post: "Ok... as I reckon after trying to contact the various companies that allegedly hold the rights to distribute the various Workbench Disk Sets and not receiving one dicky bird or even one iota of a response from any of them..."
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IANAL, but it's nice to see so many here.. ;-)
Most (if not all) contracts drafted by Amiga Inc appear to contain a clause that requires the other party to protect the rights of Amiga Inc.
That's a funny one, because when you break it down, it's legally questionable.
It doesn't appear that actual ownership or even legal rights to "protect on behalf of" have been transferred in these cases, just the phrase that they are required to...
So, problems? Yes..
How do they do that? Complain (as Cloanto has done). Yes, but the problem there is that "take-down" letters have been challenged quite a lot recently (thank you RIAA), and it appears that you really have to be the legal owner or have been specifically transferred the rights to do so.
It's seriously doubtful that this is the case.. It's much more likely that the above type of wording is all that there is..
So, what would they be expected to do to "protect the rights" legally if they shouldn't send notices themselves? Why, I would think they would be required to notify the legal owner so that they can send said letters.
So, just because something is in an Amiga contract, that doesn't necessarily mean much...
Contracts frequently have things in them that aren't legally viable.
That's why we have contract attorneys.. :roflmao:
Also, Thanx Piru for providing that image.. It shows that Cloanto does in fact have rights specific for AmigaForever.
So, anyone providing the files specifically for emulation should have reason to give pause..
desiv
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Cloanto Register the Trademark Workbench on 19th April 2011...
1. That's not news for those of us who use our brains occasionally.
2. It's a trademark, while you were ranting about copyright until now
3. Cloanto never claimed to "own" anything.
4. Cloanto actually registered "Workbench" in 2006, it's just the ongoing trademark dispute with AInc that was settled now
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Don't use the term "illegal" in this context. It's bogus.
What would you call it then? I am of course referring to this? http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145
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Gawd... you really are an anus aint you... or can't you read very well... :rolleyes:
Cloanto do not own the copyrights to Workbench nor do they have the power to issue/sell/give away/gift/ or out of the goodness of their hearts allow anyone to obtain distribution rights to Workbench... :rolleyes:
So why the frig would I contact them in the first place when the question has nothing to do with them whatsoever... :rolleyes:
Are you really this dumb or do you get up early and practice... :lol:
How do you know what rights Cloanto have regarding the AmigaOS IP? Have you asked them, oh, no wait you didn't bother... Bit rich calling others dumb...
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Ah yes, forgot all about this excellent FAQ cloanto has set up. See this:
Distribution of Amiga ROM and OS Files (http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-122)
And while we're at it, I think this confirms that Cloanto indeed has a license:
(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9630/screenshot20110518at180.png)
Source: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BxlY9g_OfLqDZTQyNGFkYzEtZDI5Zi00YzcxLThhODYtODcyZTg0M2I4MzQ1
First off that is no legal proof what so ever. It's something some one typed up as an example listing. That is not a Cloanto contract or anything. So don't try to confuse people by posting some snippet of something. That has no legal anything. I could type something showing "AmigaHeretic has the right to distribute since 1993" and it has the same 100% legal weight as what you show there.
Again, if anything it just again shows, that Cloanto supposedly has a license to distribute stuff ONLY for emulation since 1994. Ok, great.
First, how does that have anything to do with physical disks?
Second, if stuff was given to PD, ie, Petro gives Workbench 3.0 to PD in 1995, then so what if Cloanto has a agreement a year prior to distribute disks? They can still distribute them fine. We can still get 3.0 free per Petro. Where is the conflict?
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A decent read (and this, being a legal discussion, means it's just a decent opinion, there is no right/wrong until it's gone to court, and even then it's questionable. ;-) is:
http://www.artquest.org.uk/artlaw/copyright/using-other-artists-work/orphan-works.htm
I found this bit relevant:
...the responsibility is placed on any prospective user of a copyright work to prove that they have undertaken duly diligent enquiries to trace the copyright owner in order to have reasonably concluded that the author died 70 or more years earlier. Such research must be undertaken before embarking on their copying or merchandising venture.
Now, whether or not anyone feels Franko has "undertaken duly diligent enquiries" is up for discussion...
desiv
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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All this is just crap. I take the position that if someone wants a Kickstart or Workbench disk for a machine that originally shipped with said disk, they should be able to get a working copy.
Nobody seems to disagree with this, not even Cloanto. Maybe someone should contact them and ask if such a service (using real floppy disks!) can be set up?
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Ah yes, forgot all about this excellent FAQ cloanto has set up. See this:
An interesting read. At the very least, it lets us know (in the absence of Cloanto having ever made any posts in this thread) that they're very, very sorry:
or, more regrettably, it could escalate all the way to the ISP and to local computer crime authorities. When this happens, we consider this a failure, and we feel very badly about this.
See, Franko? They feel really bad about it.
We believe that ROM and operating system piracy hurt emulation. Please consider what happened to so many emulators for other systems,
You mean the emulators that are now free and unmolested because companies without such a burr up their ass realized it wasn't actually the end of the world? Has this page been updated since 1997?
It does not cost much to ask
but you may never get any reply at all, in which case you should avoid ever taking any action, even if you have to wait until the end of time.
The difference in this particular case is that it is Franko's stated goal to prove that the Workbench disks are PD. Cloanto simply have to react to this. Or as Piru put it: They're a sensible business, so they have to protect their investment.
Do they? They don't distribute Workbench disk images for actual Amiga hardware, nor are they licensed to do so. What possible investment could they have in this?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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An interesting read. At the very least, it lets us know (in the absence of Cloanto having ever made any posts in this thread) that they're very, very sorry:
or, more regrettably, it could escalate all the way to the ISP and to local computer crime authorities. When this happens, we consider this a failure, and we feel very badly about this.
See, Franko? They feel really bad about it.
We believe that ROM and operating system piracy hurt emulation. Please consider what happened to so many emulators for other systems,
You mean the emulators that are now free and unmolested because companies without such a burr up their ass realized it wasn't actually the end of the world? Has this page been updated since 1997?
It does not cost much to ask
but you may never get any reply at all, in which case you should avoid ever taking any action, even if you have to wait until the end of time.
Do they? They don't distribute Workbench disk images for actual Amiga hardware, nor are they licensed to do so. What possible investment could they have in this?
And Franko didn't bother to ask them, as they have requested in their FAQ... Have you contacted them?
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Nobody seems to disagree with this, not even Cloanto. Maybe someone should contact them and ask if such a service (using real floppy disks!) can be set up?
There's the problem. The smart thing to do, and I'm sure Cloanto would love to would be to put the ADF's up for like 50 cents a disk DL. Pick any disk pay $0.50. Get a whole OS for like $2.50. Everyone is happy!! :) Wouldn't have to even deal with Franko and his ISP.
Why don't Cloanto do this?
Dum Duh Dummm!!!!
Because there is no COPYRIGHT holder!! Cloanto have no license to do this type of service AND they have no way to get a new license to do this because no one exists any longer that can give new licenses.
My guess is a last ditch effort to keep this a secret? That is the only thing I can think of.
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And Franko didn't bother to ask them, as they have requested in their FAQ... Have you contacted them?
It's fair use.
Don't agree it's fair use? Well, have Cloanto tried to contacted him to speak about it?
EDIT:
And second of all why, would you think to even contact Cloanto? I mean they are not the copyright holder. That would be one of the last people I would have thought, maybe Amiga Inc though. But if you contact Cloanto, then you have to contact AmigaKit and so on.... where does it end? But Cloanto? They don't even sell disks for real Amigas.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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@ commodorejohn
I've been over that site many times now and it never fails to make me laugh... :)
@ Bloodline
You just don't get it do you... sigh... :(
Obviously not! While I'm struggling to understand, I simply don't!
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It's fair use.
By which definition? Commentary? Criticism? News reporting? Research? Teaching? Parody?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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By which definition? Commentary? Criticism? News reporting? Research? Teaching? Parody?
Oh look you asked! Did Cloanto?
;)
That was the point in my reply.
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And Franko didn't bother to ask them, as they have requested in their FAQ... Have you contacted them?
They don't have the rights to it! Why would you contact them?
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They don't have the rights to it! Why would you contact them?
They DO have rights to it, and that appears to be the problem most people have with them!
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By which definition? Commentary? Criticism? News reporting? Research? Teaching? Parody?
Based on this thread, I'd say all of the above...
desiv
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2) If it is about helping honest Amiga owners who lost or damaged their original floppy disks, why are you not setting up a service where you ship actual Amiga floppy disks? You can't write an Amiga floppy disk from a Pc from the files you offer download, so what use are they if you cannot startup the Amiga?
This is the proper way to handle it. Anyone in possession of an actual Amiga computer is licensed for the use of Workbench (the version the computer came with) for that machine. They are also allowed to make and use backup copies.
I, for one, would be happy to provide a full set of physical copies to anyone that needs them, provided they pay for or supply the media.
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They DO have rights to it, and that appears to be the problem most people have with them!
They have the rights to "distribute" it just like a 10,000 stores have the right to distribute MS Windows.
If I want to distribute Windows why would I contact Wal-Mart?
I wouldn't, I would contact MS. That is who Franko should have contacted.
The problem is WHO IS MS in this case? That IS the question Franko trying to answer. Do you get that?
Now, it's sad if Cloanto feel their toes are being stepped on (personally I don't think they have lost a single $ in sales over this. Roms are not uploaded and the whole AF can be dl'ed anywhere anyway, go after those guys).
The whole point was to see if the "Copyright" holder even exists and would come out of the wood work.
So far this has not happened. How is this so confusing?
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They DO have rights to it, and that appears to be the problem most people have with them!
They are a licensee, not a licensor. Is that so very difficult to understand?
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I, for one, would be happy to provide a full set of physical copies to anyone that needs them, provided they pay for or supply the media.
I agree with this, and I've sent copies of WB on floppy to people to get them started before, but there was some discussion of this on another forum and someone found the original legal wording that came with the disks and it basically said you couldn't do that..
(Sorry, can't remember the specifics, but it's not uncommon to include that type of wording..)
So, someone (Cloanto or whomever) would have to have a license to do that.
Currently, it appears Cloanto's license is too specific (to AmigaForever usage) for them to do that..
(and currently they are apparently distributing modified disk images for use with their emulation, not the original disks, which further muddles the issue)
I still think that would be great, but it begs the whole original question, "who own's that?"....
desiv
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So if I want to distribute Workbench disks who should I contact?
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So if I want to distribute Workbench disks who should I contact?
Good question. It is however beside the point. There's no obligation for the licensor to advertise themselves.
Even though you don't have this information or valid license due to lack of it it doesn't mean Kickstart or Workbench would somehow become Public Domain or distributing them "Fair Use".
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They are a licensee, not a licensor. Is that so very difficult to understand?
I think it is for most of the continental Europeans responding in this thread, which to me says their objections are less about the facts and more that they dislike Franko, OR that their understanding of what is piracy (ironic, considering that all the great torrent sites are European) and ownership is different. Koft, Piru, and others have made it pretty clear that they see Franko as simply an attention-grabbing whore, so whatever Franko does or doesn't do is going to be met with disinterest at best and caustic retort at worst.
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Good question. It is however beside the point. There's no obligation for the licensor to advertise themselves.
Even though you don't have this information or valid license due to lack of it it doesn't mean Kickstart or Workbench would somehow become Public Domain or distributing them "Fair Use".
Technically true, but I don't see why, in the absence of anybody willing to actually lay claim to being the appropriate licensor, we shouldn't make do - I damn well ain't going to wait 69 years for the copyright to expire!
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Good question. It is however beside the point.
How is that beside the point!? People are chastising Franko for not contacting Cloanto.
So if a person wants to distribute Workbench disks are they are they not suppose to contact Cloanto? Are we changing the story now?
So to get a license I do or I do not contact Cloanto? I'm soooo confused now.
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Cloanto do not own the copyrights to Workbench nor do they have the power to issue/sell/give away/gift/ or out of the goodness of their hearts allow anyone to obtain distribution rights to Workbench...
How do you know?
And why would you expect them to be kind and contact you ("they have had neither the decency or guts to approach me themselves" in post #89), when you created this big public mess without even asking first? I would not have acted any different. Someone who asks deserves an answer, but in my opinion all you deserve is to be ignored. For these cases it should be enough to have quick and standard procedures apply, whatever they are (ISP takedown notice...)
Possibly they meant nothing bad to you personally, but it's a sad reality in a software company these days that you have to send dozens if not hundreds of DMCA takedown notices every week. Companies like YouTube built their entire multibillion-dollar business model around this. Download sites have an economic incentive (advertising and subscriptions) to host all types of content, even from dubious sources. It is up to the small guys like Cloanto to do all the work in the form of DMCA filings. Cloanto probably just pasted some links that somebody else reported into some automated tool. And if they hadn't done this, it would have been them who was in breach of some obligation.
You seem to have chosen this annoying approach instead of a more friendly and personal one. But apparently it was all your choice?!
It was also your choice to put some files for download instead of offering a floppy-based approach that would help all users (as per your thread subject!!). Now the only answer we are going to get from this is that online piracy is not good, but we already knew that! What benefit does the Amiga community get from this? We need real Amiga-formatted disks, not downloads.
One good side of this that I see here is that your NamesCo ISP is investing some of their own legal resources to actually verify if you have a right to distribute these copyrighted files. Speculating a little bit, that might be the reason why Cloanto hasn't asked for the 3.0 and 3.1 files to be taken down from MediaFire (yet): they only tested the waters with MediaFire, but they want your UK web site to continue to be "infringing", so the situation can be answered in full, rather than covered up.
Which leads me to an even bigger question: what if "Franko" was actually Cloanto itself? :roflmao:
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So if I want to distribute Workbench disks who should I contact?
And THAT is the question.
Franko is trying to "force" someone to step up.
Technically, you should "undertake duly diligent enquiries to trace the copyright owner."
For me, I'd probably start by sending certified, notarized, stamped, signed, sealed, delivered (did I just break into song there?) legal documents (Yes, I'd run it by a real lawyer) to some of the more obvious people:
Hyperion
Amiga Inc
In fact, on their web page, Amiga.com has:
For information on licensing, or sales of any Amiga Operating System, please use our Contact form (http://www.amiga.com/about/contact/?contact_department=techlicensing).
I'm not saying they are the ones, but that's probably where you'd start..
There is no real legal grounds for abandoment, as Piru has mentioned, unless it is specified. That is, a company can "choose" to abandon their copyright, which most often when it happens (which isn't often) is that they release it publically themselves.
desiv
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I agree with this, and I've sent copies of WB on floppy to people to get them started before, but there was some discussion of this on another forum and someone found the original legal wording that came with the disks and it basically said you couldn't do that..
At least in the US, anyone is allowed to make and use a backup of any software they are legally entitled to, regardless of what it says in the packaging.
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Blah Blah Blah
And who are you? You joined this month, my guess a few days ago. I feel you are more likely to be representing an interested party than Franko, who, while being a loud obnoxious scotsman, at least has the balls to be open and honest about who he is.
So, either you are a Cloanto rep, or you are a regular on here without the stones to post under an account that people know. Either way, you are a coward.
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At least in the US, anyone is allowed to make and use a backup of any software they are legally entitled to, regardless of what it says in the packaging.
Even that isn't always clear legally..
Although I do it personally.. ;-)
desiv
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They are a licensee, not a licensor. Is that so very difficult to understand?
One does not exclude the other. A license may grant a right to sublicense.
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Even though you don't have this information or valid license due to lack of it it doesn't mean Kickstart or Workbench would somehow become Public Domain or distributing them "Fair Use".
That's the second part of the issue. I don't think Franko was claiming Fair Use, I was just throwing that out there as a "who knows" because Cloanto never bothered to ask apparently on what grounds Franko was putting the disks up.
Honestly I don't know what grounds Franko put them up. I do know, that as far as Workbench 3.0 goes there is a strong case to be made it was put into Public Domain by Petro. I didn't just "somehow" happen as you keep saying, the man did it while in control of the company. It's documented and all over the Internet now for a decade and a half.
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One does not exclude the other. A license may grant a right to sublicense.
Yes, but based on the document Piru produced, it appears that Cloanto is the licensee in this case..
desiv
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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So if a person wants to distribute Workbench disks are they are they not suppose to contact Cloanto?
I don't know.
Are we changing the story now?
Who?
So to get a license I do or I do not contact Cloanto?
Beats me.
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And why would you expect them to be kind and contact you ("they have had neither the decency or guts to approach me themselves" in post #89), when you created this big public mess without even asking first?
So, uh, did you actually read at the start of the thread when he said he'd already tried to get in contact with the various parties that might conceivably hold the copyright?
It is up to the small guys like Cloanto to do all the work in the form of DMCA filings. Cloanto probably just pasted some links that somebody else reported into some automated tool. And if they hadn't done this, it would have been them who was in breach of some obligation.
Oh, pity the poor little Cloanto, forced to do battle with Big Bad Franko because nobody else would do it! After all, if nobody stopped people from distributing Workbench disk images, that would [strike]harm sales of Amiga Forever[/strike] [strike]harm sales of Commodore USA's upcoming OS[/strike] [strike]harm sales of OS4[/strike] um...make Bill McEwen sad?
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I don't know.
Who?
Beats me.
So you contact AI from links/email their webpage for 6 months and no replies.
You contact Petro from his facebook, and get bad translations that says, "I give free long time ago."
You find no other records.
You put the disks up on a site for people with old rotting disks for some obsolete turd machines to DL to make backups from.
You get crapped on.
Hmmmm..... seems fair.
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So you contact AI from links/email their webpage for 6 months and no replies.
You contact Petro from his facebook, and get bad translations that says, "I give free long time ago."
You find no other records.
You put the disks up on a site for people with old rotting disks for some obsolete turd machines to DL to make backups from.
You get crapped on.
Hmmmm..... seems fair.
Yes. It's a fair response for such stupidity.
Seriously though, morality and legality hardly ever meet. It sucks, but such is life.. unfair.
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Yes. It's a fair response for such stupidity.
?????? Brilliant!
I ask you repeatedly who to contact, and you go, "uhh, err..."
Then even when pointed out people were contacted just to be nice, you say, STUPID!!
Again then, if I want to distribute Workbench disks Piru, who should I contact?
3rd times a charm?
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if I want to distribute Workbench disks Piru, who should I contact?
I don't know.
Again I should point out that regardless what you might consider moral thing to do might not necessarily be legal.
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Yes. It's a fair response for such stupidity.
Seriously though, morality and legality hardly ever meet. It sucks, but such is life.. unfair.
Do you know if there is a legal problem Piru?
The Copyright holder has made no claims and has not come forward. FACT.
Maybe the copyright owner approves of Franko posting the images for all you know. Maybe before your chastise you should "Contact the copyright holders". Have you done this?
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Again then, if I want to distribute Workbench disks Piru, who should I contact?
I answered that question two weeks ago.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=635372&postcount=114
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I don't know.
Again I should point out that regardless what you might consider moral thing to do might not necessarily be legal.
Maybe what you think is immoral by Franko may not be illegal.
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I answered that question two weeks ago.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=635372&postcount=114
I assume that is a joke. Try emailing that asking for a license to Workbench 3.1 and prior. You will get no response. Ever. Emails don't bounce, so I assume it goes somewhere.
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Maybe what you think is immoral by Franko may not be illegal.
Does Franko have permission from the copyright holder to distribute Workbench disks?
If he doesn't, it's illegal.
It's really as simple as that.
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I assume that is a joke. Try emailing that asking for a license to Workbench 3.1 and prior. You will get no response. Ever. Emails don't bounce, so I assume it goes somewhere.
It's no joke. They have no obligation to reply if they have no interest in giving you a license.
The problem is that you want a license to give away Workbench disks and there is no money to be made in doing that. Come up with a viable business plan in which Amiga Inc can profit from it and they might be willing to listen.
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Does Franko have permission from the copyright holder to distribute Workbench disks?
If he doesn't, it's illegal.
It's really as simple as that.
I think he would say yes. I think he bases it on documentation from various Commodore sources, up to and including Petro. There is various source supporting that Commodore basically considered the Workbench free to distribute and ended up letting anyone include the files on disks and eventually CDs. The thought being, you already own OUR machine and OS, so you aren't copying anything anyway! Duh! They sold ROMs and they sold physical disk and manuals, but distribution and copying was fine. The entire disk themselves were released for some versions to public domain as well.
So yes, I believe Franko "believes" he has permission and "legal" right to have the disk available for legal owners of the OS to download and make backups.
Does he have the legal right? I DON'T KNOW? Do you know. No you don't.
The only one that would know may be the Copyright holder! If they disagree. (Which as this point they haven't said they do). Then they could either tell Franko, or his ISP, or just take him to court.
So far it appears the Copyright holders agrees that Franko does have a right to distribute the disks. Who are you to say otherwise exactly?
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Does Franko have permission from the copyright holder to distribute Workbench disks?
If he doesn't, it's illegal.
It's really as simple as that.
I think he would say yes. I think he bases it on documentation from various Commodore sources, up to and including Petro. There is various source supporting that Commodore basically considered the Workbench free to distribute and ended up letting anyone include the files on disks and eventually CDs. The thought being, you already own OUR machine and OS, so you aren't copying anything anyway! Duh! They sold ROMs and they sold physical disk and manuals, but distribution and copying was find. The entire disk themselves were released for some versions to public domain as well.
So yes, I believe Franko "believes" he has permission and "legal" right to have the disk available for legal owners of the OS to download and make backups.
Does he have the legal right? I DON'T KNOW? Do you know? No you don't.
The only one that would know may be the Copyright holder! If they disagree. (Which as this point they haven't said they do). Then they could either tell Franko, or his ISP, or just take him to court.
So far it appears the Copyright holders agrees that Franko does have a right to distribute the disks. Who are you to say otherwise exactly?
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Does Franko have permission from the copyright holder to distribute Workbench disks?
If he doesn't, it's illegal.
It's really as simple as that.
That is definitely not true..
This is copyright law. Nothing is simple.. ;-)
It's most likely a violation of the copyright, but even that could be questionable.
In fact, it could be a legally recommended step if he has already taken appropriate actions to try to contact the legal copyright holder...
I'm not saying he has or hasn't.. Just saying..
desiv
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In fact, it could be a legally recommended step if he has already taken appropriate actions to try to contact the legal copyright holder...
I fail to see how. Regardless whether the copyright owner reacts or not, it still is and will remain an infringement.
Trademarks need to be defended, however.
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I fail to see how. Regardless whether the copyright owner reacts or not, it still is and will remain an infringement.
Trademarks need to be defended, however.
I didn't say it would alleviate the infringement in and of itself.
I said "it could be a legally recommended step"....
That step would be in trying to get the copyright holder to come forward.
It's not uncommon, however you have to go through the process of making serious attempts to contact the copyright holder first.
The "endgame" would be the contact of the copyright holder to get rights, or a specific deny.
I'm not talking trademarks at all here..
As I said, there is no "simple" in this, and those who think it is, on either side, are likely to be wrong..
desiv
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There is various source supporting that Commodore basically considered the Workbench free to distribute and ended up letting anyone include the files on disks and eventually CDs.
Workbench and Includes Licenses
Developers who wish to distribute files/commands from Workbench
or C/Asm Include files on their commercial product MUST have
a license to do so. Distribution of the items in PD or freely
redistributable form is not allowed. Licenses may be requested
through your local Amiga support organization, or through
CATS - Licenses, 1200 Wilson Drive, West Chester, PA., 19380.
Licenses are available for Workbench 1.3, Workbench 2.0, Includes
1.3, and Includes 2.0. Be sure to specify which license(s) you
require and include your full PAPER MAIL address including country.
Licensing generally costs $100/year for workbench, $25/year for
Includes/Libs.
Current 1.3 Workbench licensees may also request a special
"IFFParse" amendment for distributing the 2.0 iffparse.library
with 1.3.
We expect to have some additional amendments available for
non-registered developers soon for Installer and AmigaGuide
(currently only available to regsitered developers).
http://ftp.back2roots.org/padua/text/CATS-Materials
So yes, I believe Franko "believes" he has permission and "legal" right to have the disk available for legal owners of the OS to download and make backups.
It doesn't really matter what Franko believes.
So far it appears the Copyright holders agrees that Franko does have a right to distribute the disks. Who are you to say otherwise exactly?
The copyright holders haven't stated any opinion on the matter. Don't assume that means they agree.
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You make me laugh, some of you make me sick!
So anal you are about if it is legal or not!
Are you telling me you have never driven over the speed limit? Never downloaded a film, software or music? Never done drugs?
Your that honest? You have NEVER broken the law, any law? Even a little bit? Get a f£$king life! I speak also as a musician, download my music for free, doesn't worry me one bit, it saves me the cost of burning the CD's!
And come on Franko doesn't believe he has the legal right. If anything I would say he is calling the owner out!
Up the revolution! Fight for your right as a CLASSIC Amiga user!
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You make me laugh, some of you make me sick!
So anal you are about if it is legal or not!
Are you telling me you have never driven over the speed limit? Never downloaded a film, software or music? Never done drugs?
Your that honest? You have NEVER broken the law, any law? Even a little bit? Get a f£$king life! I speak also as a musician, download my music for free, doesn't worry me one bit, it saves me the cost of burning the CD's!
And come on Franko doesn't believe he has the legal right. If anything I would say he is calling the owner out!
Up the revolution! Fight for your right as a CLASSIC Amiga user!
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I've also had a thought - I like the idea of NatAmi, so don't take this the wrong way - but how are NatAmi going to get along with software? It can run original OS, so are they going to release it with original OS and if not where do we get the copies?
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I've also had a thought - I like the idea of NatAmi, so don't take this the wrong way - but how are NatAmi going to get along with software? It can run original OS, so are they going to release it with original OS and if not where do we get the copies?
We have sourced quite a few NOS Workbench 3.1 packages to supply with the Natami.
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We have sourced quite a few NOS Workbench 3.1 packages to supply with the Natami.
Nice, a like your style! :)
To change the subject a little bit - is Natami gonna cost mega bucks, and when can we buy it?!!!!!! :laughing:
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It is going to be quite reasonably priced considering the production quantity and component costs.
We will announce the price of the Natami when we feel comfortable doing so considering the state of the project.
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Regardless whether the copyright owner reacts or not, it still is and will remain an infringement.
Trademarks need to be defended, however.
+1
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It's occurred to me... most of the time posters have been talking about a 'copyright holder' in the singular, with the assumption that Commodore was the copyright holder of Workbench/AmigaOS and it got somewhat murky after 1994.
But I'm not sure Commodore WERE the only copyright holder. For certain aspects of Workbench they were a licensee... for example, Commodore's license for the Narrator library expired in 1991 - which is why it wasn't included in later versions of Workbench. Cloanto had to license that independently, which they did for the first time in 2002. I think there were other components of Workbench for which Commodore was a licensee, e.g. ARexx and Memacs?
So to get the original Workbench disks released into the public domain, you'd probably need to get a whole list of copyright holders to contact, not just the entity which has inherited all of Commodore's copyrights. I get the impression Cloanto have done this.
Otherwise, even if you did work out who has inherited Commodore's copyrights, you'd only legally be able to distribute specially modified disks (or ADF images) which removed any component for which Commodore had only been a licensee, and not a copyright holder.
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Nice try... :roflmao:
But such a page doesn't exist on my site, that is a very old screen grab you have there and the link on it never even existed as I was still at that point in time trying to track down the rights to the ROMS... :lol:
A page that "doesn't exist"? It was a public link! Of course now you conveniently removed it...
Are you or are you not "theamigacollector" on MediaFire?
Amiga ROM files like the following are linked to from your "Commodore Scotland" site (this grab is not "very old", it was taken yesterday!):
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z406/analogfiles/Piracy/mediafire-com-amigacollector-amiga-rom-download.png
The real Robin Hood at least didn't lie...
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cowardly drivel
Who are you, again? That's right, a shill account.
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But I'm not sure Commodore WERE the only copyright holder. For certain aspects of Workbench they were a licensee... for example, Commodore's license for the Narrator library expired in 1991 - which is why it wasn't included in later versions of Workbench. Cloanto had to license that independently, which they did for the first time in 2002. I think there were other components of Workbench for which Commodore was a licensee, e.g. ARexx and Memacs?
So to get the original Workbench disks released into the public domain, you'd probably need to get a whole list of copyright holders to contact, not just the entity which has inherited all of Commodore's copyrights. I get the impression Cloanto have done this.
You make a very good point here. Several components have had their licensing issues, like you point out, at least ARexx and narrator. Later on Haage&Partner did their own share by including an illegal copy of Genesis TCP/IP stack to AmigaOS 3.9.
Cloanto were very careful to sort out these issues in their distributions. Here are some details: http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/15-107
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(Strange how if Copyright laws are so simple that court cases can drag on for years before being resolved...) ;)
Actually I'm the UK. Our copyright law is much simpler than the US. We have no such thing as fair use in law, if you don't have permission then it's wrong. However you just don't end up in court for minor infrigement.
Copyright cases drag on when the defendant claims they created the copyright work. This is not that type of case.
You are wrong:
There is much more than that. For example there is copyright expiration, fair use, orphaned worK, etc.. And, the fact that law regarding copyright varies from country to country.
It hasn't expired, it's not fair use. Internation copyright is generally consistent. However yes it would be legal in china.
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Second, if stuff was given to PD, ie, Petro gives Workbench 3.0 to PD in 1995, then so what if Cloanto has a agreement a year prior to distribute disks? They can still distribute them fine. We can still get 3.0 free per Petro. Where is the conflict?
There is no way that Petro would have had the authority to release it in the public domain. Besides he'd have had to release the disks in such a way that they didn't assert copyright. As all of the disks I've ever seen claim that commodore or amiga technologies assert their copyright, I can't see how they are in the public domain.
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It's occurred to me... most of the time posters have been talking about a 'copyright holder' in the singular, with the assumption that Commodore was the copyright holder of Workbench/AmigaOS and it got somewhat murky after 1994.
Which is indeed what Amiga Forever explains on their site:
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-122
They also have a page where they explain how they re-licensed some things found on the original floppy disks, the rights of which had expired (like the speech), but I can't seem to find that now.
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Which is indeed what Amiga Forever explains on their site:
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-122
They also have a page where they explain how they re-licensed some things found on the original floppy disks, the rights of which had expired (like the speech), but I can't seem to find that now.
Really? Can't find information on your own website?
Who are you?
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At least in the US, anyone is allowed to make and use a backup of any software they are legally entitled to, regardless of what it says in the packaging.
Yes, you are entitled to backup your disk and keep it safe. You can't copy someone elses disk and you can't give the disk to anyone else.
But I don't see how thats relevant to someone wanting to distribute adf's on a web site.
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Yes, you are entitled to backup your disk and keep it safe. You can't copy someone elses disk and you can't give the disk to anyone else.
But I don't see how thats relevant to someone wanting to distribute adf's on a web site.
If they own the original also, its irrelevant who's fingers actually pushed the copy button. They are entitled to use a backup, period...
Also, if you read the whole thread, you would see why it's relevant.
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Does he have the legal right? I DON'T KNOW? Do you know. No you don't.
The only one that would know may be the Copyright holder! If they disagree. (Which as this point they haven't said they do). Then they could either tell Franko, or his ISP, or just take him to court.
So far it appears the Copyright holders agrees that Franko does have a right to distribute the disks. Who are you to say otherwise exactly?
If you don't know if you have the legal right, then you don't.
You require express permission, saying you couldn't contact the copyright holder is not good enough.
Otherwise you could say you tried asking Microsoft whether you could copy Windows but when you went to the local bus station they didn't have a representative there to ask & when you stood there with a sign around your kneck all day nobody told you that you couldn't. A bit extreme, but Franko has been just as effective.
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Yes, you are entitled to backup your disk and keep it safe.
Not always..
Just ask RealNetworks...
DMCA...
desiv
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I'm sure EU law dictates you are allowed to make a backup and use a backup of ALL software and this right supersedes all other rights a seller may impose on you.
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I'm sure EU law dictates you are allowed to make a backup and use a backup of ALL software and this right supersedes all other rights a seller may impose on you.
Are you sure? There is a version of the DMCA in Europe.. (EUCD??)
No idea how it compares to the USA version..
desiv
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SCREWING amiga fans forever...
Come on thats funny.
And by the way, personal paint blows. I'd rather be forced to use microsoft windows paint than that trainwreck.
I suppose I do just wonder, how long will the amiga community allow cloanto to have this stranglehold on roms and 3.1 disks?
I like thier explanation on their own website, where they basically say "We can't prove you can't post roms on websites, but we'll bitch about it anyway."
And I think it says alot that although cloanto or its representatives won't publicly post here in this thread to defend their probably illegal actions taken against franko, they will sign up a shill account. -=Moderated=- cowards.
Steven
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Ahhhh! The copyright mafia so knowledgeable about crap they are the true legal expert that the whole world looks to.... i used to have a measure of respect for some people here (not talking about Franko btw) but now i see them as sheep and morons regurgitating the same things over and over again how every sad.
Craptos only have right when it come to their stupid EMULATION package (that i have said elsewhere you can do better in 5 secs and for free). They have no right on REAL CLASSIC AMIGA hardware. Funny that all these copyright mafia don't actually use classic amiga they have gone over to Apples and PC good luck to you if you like that sort of thing but i rather use my I7 six core for everyday stuff. But as i love to mess around with my CLASSIC Amiga it kind of hard when your disks are corrupt...
Anyway since only idiots buy craptos i can understand why some of you protest so much, don't like to be shown up as fools for buying such crap.
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And by the way, personal paint blows. I'd rather be forced to use microsoft windows paint than that trainwreck.
Don't forget that TVPaint for Amiga was released for free by NewTek. That's still one of my favs. I use the PC version, Aura, every day and other than Aura having animation it's very similar.
NewTek also released the source to the VT, CG, Flyer and DigiPaint when there was no more money in it as a nod to the community that got them where they are today.
THAT'S how it's done.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Cloanto's false claim that their trademark was infringed upon ie: "WORKBENCH" has nothing to do whatsoever with the claim they have made for the deletion of my Workbench V2.04 files from Mediafire and was issued knowingly or not under false pretences... ;)
On the basis of what you have just copy-and-pasted, Cloanto are not talking about trademarks being infringed, but copyrights.
You see Cloanto's only legal claim to the term "Workbench" being used as a tradmark, was issued under the word Workbench being written entirely on it's own
So are you saying they don't have any trademark rights over the phrase (for example) 'Workbench 2.04'? Only 'Workbench'? Bizarre if true (again I'm no legal expert so can't really comment). But in any case this now doesn't seem to be about trademarks...
The above is the only way Cloanto would have had a genuine legal complaint for infringement of their trademark but as Cloanto are in no manner whatsoever the Copyright holders of Workbench 2.04
They may not be copyright holders of Workbench 2.04 (I don't know) but it seems they are co-copyright holders of Workbench 3.1 (which I think you were also hosting?). According to Michael Battilana of Cloanto here (http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_amigaforever.html):
In the early 1990s we had also done some operating system improvements, e.g. to printer drivers and DataTypes, among others. This resulted in our code being included in the 3.1 release. So, technically (and legally), we are co-authors of 3.1.
They do not contain the HP Deskjet printer drivers that Cloanto registered for copyright in 1993...
Although presumably the Workbench 3.1 ADFs you put up for distribution do?
So you see Cloanto you made these claims under false pretences whether knowingly or not and should have checked first, so now I'll leave it up to my Solicitors to put together a nice wee legal case for you to look forward too, like I said before Cloanto I really hope you think this was worth it... ;)
It is interesting that (from what you have copy-and-pasted) Cloanto have not made any reference to the Workbench 2.x ADFs you uploaded. As your copy-and-paste suggests that they say Amiga Inc are the (primary) copyright holders of Workbench 3.1, I guess they'd also say Amiga Inc are the (primary) copyright holders of previous versions of Workbench?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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If they own the original also, its irrelevant who's fingers actually pushed the copy button. They are entitled to use a backup, period...
Also, if you read the whole thread, you would see why it's relevant.
Actually it is relevant who's finger pushes the copy button in US fair use law.
I have read the whole thread, the reason it's not relevant is that in no way can you class distributing copyright works as fair use. Fair use covers you being able to make a backup of your own disk for yourself, it doesn't cover you making a backup for others. If you think I'm wrong then go read the law and show me.
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Look it's very obvious that yourself and "Steino" are associated in some way with Cloanto so I'm not going to even bother commenting on your flawed and pointless remarks here, for the simple fact that both of you strangely enough have only recently joined and your only posts on this site have all been made in this thread..
Well...
(a) my join date was Mar 2010;
(b) I am much more active over on EAB (same username), but have been reading Amiga.org as well more lately;
(c) I have commented a few times on this thread because I find what you are doing very interesting. In fact in my first post in this thread I stated :
I have every sympathy for what you're doing, it is absolutely ludicrous that they are not distributed for free.
I admit I have become a little less sympathetic in your demonisation of Cloanto, but I still respect that you are trying to get to the bottom of a very murky copyright maze, and I hope we all have a little more clarity as a result of what you're doing.
So I'm not really sure why you're getting personal with me...
So read this carefully and try and understand the Cloanto clearly tried to make the only part of their complaint that had any chance of being valid as being based on an infringement of their trademark "WORKBENCH"...
I've read that email from MediaFire again (with Cloanto's email pasted in), and it reads to me that they are saying:
(a) they claim your ADFs infringe on (at least) three US copyrights which are either owned by, or licensed to, them;
(b) they claim that your ADFs ALSO infringe on their 'Workbench' trademark.
In the other stuff you copy-and-pasted (at 10:52am today) it only talks about two specific copyrights, and doesn't mention trademarks, granted.
But it's not true that in the e-mail you've just re-pasted now (at 11:40am) that they only refer to their 'Workbench' trademark.
Anyway, will watch with interest as to what happens next...
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Ahhhh! The copyright mafia so knowledgeable about crap they are the true legal expert that the whole world looks to.... i used to have a measure of respect for some people here (not talking about Franko btw) but now i see them as sheep and morons regurgitating the same things over and over again how every sad.
Craptos only have right when it come to their stupid EMULATION package (that i have said elsewhere you can do better in 5 secs and for free). They have no right on REAL CLASSIC AMIGA hardware.
I'm not a legal expert, but seriously the amount of crap in this thread is ridiculous. Referring to cloanto as "craptos" is about as moronic as referring to microsoft as "micro$oft" or "microsucks" (don't forget the equally inane "winblows" instead of windows). Yeah your lack of intelligence really scares me.
So cloanto has a right to protect workbench disks used for emulation and not real amiga hardware? Well my real amiga can't boot off adf's, only emulators can. So does it really come as a suprise that they would want to stop you distributing adf's?
If you were selling floppy disks with pirate copies of workbench on then cloanto wouldn't care.
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Well my real amiga can't boot off adf's, only emulators can. So does it really come as a suprise that they would want to stop you distributing adf's?
Tools for writing ADF images to real floppies on a real Amiga have been around as long as the format has existed.
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Well...
(a) my join date was Mar 2010;
(b) I am much more active over on EAB (same username), but have been reading Amiga.org as well more lately;
(c) I have commented a few times on this thread because I find what you are doing very interesting. In fact in my first post in this thread I stated :
I admit I have become a little less sympathetic in your demonisation of Cloanto, but I still respect that you are trying to get to the bottom of a very murky copyright maze, and I hope we all have a little more clarity as a result of what you're doing.
So I'm not really sure why you're getting personal with me...
I've read that email from MediaFire again (with Cloanto's email pasted in), and it reads to me that they are saying:
(a) they claim your ADFs infringe on (at least) three US copyrights which are either owned by, or licensed to, them;
(b) they claim that your ADFs ALSO infringe on their 'Workbench' trademark.
In the other stuff you copy-and-pasted (at 10:52am today) it only talks about two specific copyrights, and doesn't mention trademarks, granted.
But it's not true that in the e-mail you've just re-pasted now (at 11:40am) that they only refer to their 'Workbench' trademark.
Anyway, will watch with interest as to what happens next...
+1
Totally agree, the old Operating systems should have been released for free years ago. But I don't see why attacking Cloanto for providing a legal route to get them makes them a bad company!
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Look it's very obvious that yourself and "Steino" are associated in some way with Cloanto
Hey you forgot me! Certainly Cloanto must be paying me or something because I don't agree with you.
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Hey you forgot me! Certainly Cloanto must be paying me or something because I don't agree with you.
He also forgot to include C=USA!
;)
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ADF's are just a way of making backup copies of you're floppy disks just like DMS was, they weren't created just for the use on a PC running an Amiga emulator... comphrehende... :)
No, but I suspect the problem may be that if you put copyrighted ADFs up to download for people who legitimately have a right to them, i.e. owners of actual Amigas like yourself, then how would you prevent people who don't have the right to download them from doing so (e.g emulator users)? A service in which actual floppy disks are posted out, however, would be useless to anyone who doesn't own the hardware.
Now admittedly:
- it's pretty petty that anyone should get upset about sharing 15-25 year old software which hasn't been on sale for years (and which doesn't look likely to be sold for this purpose ever again);
- even more ridiculous that there is no legal way for genuine owners of Amiga hardware to get hold of Workbench disks or disk images.
Nevertheless, from a technically legal perspective I am not sure you're going to get anywhere with this.
And realistically, does anyone who needs a Workbench ADF, for whatever purpose, really have that much difficulty in acquiring it for free with Google's help?
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Tools for writing ADF images to real floppies on a real Amiga have been around as long as the format has existed.
You forgot to mention that there is the HXC floppy emulator which makes it possible to boot, use, and install amiga software using adfs.
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EULAs have never been properly tested in court. Even the US, with it's strong connection to the software manufacturers has no court cases that actually give legal standing to EULAs, only a few that comment on certain policies within EULAs. Most other countries have less than that.
So basically, until someone can prove in court in your country that EULAs are legally enforceable, it's all in the realm of legal theory. It gets back to that old chestnut, when I buy a copy of software am I getting the software or just a license or something in between.
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Totally agree, the old Operating systems should have been released for free years ago. But I don't see why attacking Cloanto for providing a legal route to get them makes them a bad company!
When did Cloanto start providing a legal route to get them? If there's one point that's been absolutely hammered into the ground in this thread, it's that the Amiga Forever disk images do not work on a real Amiga.
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If you think I'm wrong then go read the law and show me.
Not going to argue grey areas with you, I simply don't care.
I'll offer physical copies via mail for anyone who requests them, and I'll never hear a word from Cloanto or Amiga Inc. or anyone else.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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I wasn't being personal with you I was just telling you what I thought about that particular post you made
No, you claimed I was associated with Cloanto, and that I had specifically joined Amiga.org to defend them against you.
A point you really need to take notice of in regard to quoting posting times, it's ruddy pointless due to the simple fact of things called "Time Zones" the post you gripe about and give a time of 11:40am doesn't show up here as 11:40:am it shows up as 04:40 am. So quoting posting times is useless it's much simpler to type the actual post number or quote the post or provide a link to the post... ;)
Fair point, I should have used the post #, although in my defence when you actually go to create a new post on Amiga.org, the post # doesn't appear on the 'review' of recent posts.
Between your fetish for "Copying & Pasting" giving exact time of posts and stating the bloody obvious, I can only come to one conclusion... you're weird man... :)
Can we keep to the actual topic and stop with all the ad hominem attacks?
I still don't understand what your legal case against Cloanto consists of, when their complaint about your file hosting consists of:
(a) they claim 'Workbench' is their trademark (I understand your argument that you don't believe 'Workbench 2.04', 'Workbench 3.0' or 'Workbench 3.1' to be a trademark, but find that hard to believe - although willing to be corrected)
(b) they claim that they are one of several copyright holders for Workbench 3.1 (as co-authors)
(c) they claim that Amiga Inc are copyright holders for Workbench 3.1 (and I assume Workbench 3.0 and Workbench 2.04 as well)
Out of these, (a) would seem to be a fact, (b) would surely be very easy for them to prove. The only slightly questionable aspect is (c) - http://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/ raises the possibility that perhaps Amiga Inc have not legitimately inherited Commodore's copyrights for Workbench, as they have been claiming all these years. But given that even the recent ruling in the US in favour of Cloanto against Amiga Inc seemed to suggest that Amiga Inc DO hold these copyrights, it seems that Cloanto are acting in good faith in requesting these copyrighted materials be taken down.
So what, exactly, are you legally accusing Cloanto of?
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You see Cloanto's only legal claim to the term "Workbench" being used as a tradmark, was issued under the word Workbench being written entirely on it's own ie: "WORKBENCH" or being used as a graphic image of the word Workbench produced in a certain font/image style. For example think of the way McDonalds use their name to distinguish it from any other company that happens to be called McDonalds, ie: the big curved "M" the colours used the style/font used for the name McDonalds...
You are probably not very familiar with trademarks. That trademark is not for a logo, it is for the word in any shape, font, color, etc. You also cannot embed a registered trademark into a composite term, for example by adding a version number to "Workbench". "Workbench 2.04" if used for an operating system name (and not something else, like the other UK marks you found, which are not for an operating system, but for other types of software), would infringe on Cloanto's US trademark, so their claim is valid as I can see it.
but as Cloanto are in no manner whatsoever the Copyright holders of Workbench 2.04 and their trademark was not infringed upon, then as of yesterday I instructed my Solicitors to begin putting together legal proceedings against Cloanto in this matter...
You are probably not very familiar with copyrights either. They don't need to be the "holder", all they need to be is an "authorized agent".
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(a) they claim 'Workbench' is their trademark (I understand your argument that you don't believe 'Workbench 2.04', 'Workbench 3.0' or 'Workbench 3.1' to be a trademark, but find that hard to believe - although willing to be corrected)
(b) they claim that they are one of several copyright holders for Workbench 3.1 (as co-authors)
(c) they claim that Amiga Inc are copyright holders for Workbench 3.1 (and I assume Workbench 3.0 and Workbench 2.04 as well)
First, I'd like to say that I've seen antonvaltaz on eab and such for a while.
There does seem to be a proclivity to assume that when someone disagrees with someone else here, they are part of some group/conspiracy. Not from anyone in particular, this happens often..
Its kind of silly, distracts from the discussion and never makes the accuser look good.
OK, enough of the preaching... ;-)
a) I'm lost again.. Did Cloanto's complaint to Franko's hosting mention trademarks at all? I thought that was just a side-note that was mentioned when someone came across it? I lose track.. ;-)
b) Part of the discussion is whether or not someone who has the right to distribute also has the legal right (regardless of some comment saying they are required to) send cease and decist letters?
c) I think that's the issue, and Amiga Inc might be the ones who are expected to answer..
desiv
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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+1
Totally agree, the old Operating systems should have been released for free years ago. But I don't see why attacking Cloanto for providing a legal route to get them makes them a bad company!
They ARE NOT a legal route to get them --for people with REAL hardware--
read -->http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145
They have made themselves and impediment.
You have to have ROMs to have an emulated environment right? The disk alone do you no good. Franko has no ROMs up. He is not providing an alternative to Cloanto's product. The disks do nothing if you want an emulator. You still need to pirate the ROM's If you are going to pirate ROM's it will probably already come in a torrent called "amiga_forever_craxord-2011-torrent-blah blah".
I could definitely see Cloanto being pissed if the ROMs were being offered with the disks. But, 1, they are not. 2, as has been stated, the ADF disks they are offering are not licensed to use on real Amiga's and some images "differ" from the REAL Commodore disks.
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I'm sure EU law dictates you are allowed to make a backup and use a backup of ALL software and this right supersedes all other rights a seller may impose on you.
Nope
Not always..
Just ask RealNetworks...
DMCA...
desiv
DMCA is not a copyright law, it's an anti DRM circumvention law. As there is no DRM to circumvent then DMCA is not applicable.
You forgot to mention that there is the HXC floppy emulator which makes it possible to boot, use, and install amiga software using adfs.
I didn't forget it. As the word "emulator" is in that sentence then I would expect that it falls within Cloanto's emulator use.
Not going to argue grey areas with you, I simply don't care.
I'll offer physical copies via mail for anyone who requests them, and I'll never hear a word from Cloanto or Amiga Inc. or anyone else.
I don't care what you do in real life. I don't think that Cloanto will care either as it doesn't have anything to do with emulation and Amiga Inc (or whoever turns out to own the copyright) will have better things to do. However the discussion is about the legality of offering adf's for download, not whether anything bad will happen if you do.
And realistically, does anyone who needs a Workbench ADF, for whatever purpose, really have that much difficulty in acquiring it for free with Google's help?
That doesn't solve Franko's problem, but it is the best way of obtaining adf's.
It doesn't solve the problem of people who need real disks, however that is a completely different situation with it's own pitfalls. While one would imagine that it's safe to offer the disks as they would have been licensed already, how do you make sure someone isn't upgrading their machine?
Providing someone with a set of workbench 3.1 disks and a kickstart rom is piracy & will steal sales from the few remaining dealers.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Wow finally someone who knows where I can legally purchase Workbench 3.1 disks, this is good news, please share this with the rest of the community for future reference... :)
PS: I know I can purchase 3.1 ROMS from AmigaKit but not the Workbench 3.1 disks... :(
Here I'll say it before someone else does for the 1000th time.
Just by Amiga Forever from Cloanto and get the ADF's for your real Amiga!
What? They are licensed for emulators only!!?!? --> http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145
Oh, maybe we should have a repository when you can get original "UN-moddified" Workbench disks only (no ROM images so people still have to buy Amiga Forever for emulation purposes) so people that need disks can find them.
People that pull their old molded Amiga's out of their attic and try to find a Working floppy image to play around with 15 or 20 years later must think it's bat shit insane that there are a few crazy people holding on to a hundred Kilobytes of dead IP with such a death grip.
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Workbench... Oops Blatant Trademark Infringement
Would love to drink a cup of tea with you!! Since we can't, let's continue with this distance education program....
There is no trademark infringement by simply writing "Workbench" in a signature.
But if you offer an unlicensed operating system product and stick the "Workbench" label on it, then yes, that becomes a trademark case too, for more than one reason.
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Would love to drink a cup of tea with you!! Since we can't, let's continue with this distance education program....
There is no trademark infringement by simply writing "Workbench" in a signature.
But if you offer an unlicensed operating system product and stick the "Workbench" label on it, then yes, that becomes a trademark case too, for more than one reason.
Does that mean Hyperion are going to get sued? Or do they have a license from Cloanto now?
Or has Cloanto gone after their ISP just like they have gone after Franko's
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DMCA is not a copyright law, it's an anti DRM circumvention law. As there is no DRM to circumvent then DMCA is not applicable.
The DMCA has several parts. The one that was used to take down the MediaFire files is the same one that applies to take down copyrighted videos from YouTube, etc. There is no DRM involved in this part.
The other problem that Franko has with his UK provider relates to the terms of service. He placed Amiga ROMs and disk images online for which he had no license, and the terms of service say he can't do that. It's as simple as that.
However the discussion is about the legality of offering adf's for download, not whether anything bad will happen if you do.
Yes and no. The discussion turned into Franko whining about Cloanto shutting down his sites/files. But Franko here is conveniently "forgetting" that the majority of items in the long list of files that were in the DMCA takedown request that he posted were not floppy disk images, but Amiga ROMs like this one:
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z406/analogfiles/Piracy/mediafire-com-amigacollector-amiga-rom-download.png
I know what I am talking about because I have a user name on the "Commodore Scotland" site, and I saved a few pages and took screen grabs before they were taken down.
--
Franko 'n' Steino virtually drinking tea together, how does that sound? ;-)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Does that mean Hyperion are going to get sued? Or do they have a license from Cloanto now?
Or has Cloanto gone after their ISP just like they have gone after Franko's
No, because Hyperion have a license. Lots of companies have a valid license. Now don't make me search on the Amiga Forever site, because being whoever I am I should know the KB number by memory ;), but I know the page is there, and it lists at least a dozen of companies who have legal licenses...
As for Cloanto "going after" the ISP, maybe they did so after I emailed them, or somebody else did. Did they have a choice to not do so? I don't know!
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Forget it. The Amiga deserves its fate. I have never met a bigger group of backstabbing children in my entire life.
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DMCA is not a copyright law, it's an anti DRM circumvention law.
er.. yes it is copyright law...
It's the Digital Millenium Copyright Act... From Wikipedia:
"The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law.."
As there is no DRM to circumvent then DMCA is not applicable.
That is true..
I didn't say it was applicable; it was a bit of a side conversation.
I know this thread is tough enough to follow already.. ;-)
desiv
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Look numptie I've known right from the start exactly who you are...
OK, tell me my "Amiga Scotland" username, and if that's right I will admit it. :)
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And of course DMCA doesn't apply to Franko as foreign laws are not enforceable in Scotland...
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Forget it. The Amiga deserves its fate. I have never met a bigger group of backstabbing children in my entire life.
+1
Ironic I guess. I mean, we all know where to get the disks, we all know where to get the roms.
By "ironic" I mean, I think this only works -against- Cloanto. If we had a legit "Workbench for Classic" repository, it would be place that clearly said it had no roms and could point to Amiga Forever if you want an emulation solution.
How it is now, if some one is only searching for Workbench disks, "Ironically", they are probably going to end up running into an Amiga Forever torrent anyway!
"SLAPS FOREHEAD"!!!!
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By "ironic" I mean, I think this only works -against- Cloanto. If we had a legit "Workbench for Classic" repository, it would be place that clearly said it had no roms and could point to Amiga Forever if you want an emulation solution.
How it is now, if some one is only searching for Workbench disks, "Ironically", they are probably going to end up running into an Amiga Forever torrent anyway!
"SLAPS FOREHEAD"!!!!
+100 :)
desiv
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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er.. yes it is copyright law...
It's the Digital Millenium Copyright Act... From Wikipedia:
"The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law.."
If you read further:
"It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to circumvent measures (commonly known as digital rights management (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management) or DRM) that control access to copyrighted works. It also criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself."
Neither of the two things it criminilizes is copyright infringement.
It does also create a safe harbour for sites that remove infringing files if removed after receiving a DMCA takedown notice. If they ignore the request then they aren't covered by the safe harbour and will be liable to prosecution under normal copyright law. This is why sites outside the US honour DMCA take down notices, if they ignore it then their local law applies anyway. However it neither adds or removes anything to copyright law about what constitutes an infringement.
So it's not actually a copyright law. The act wasn't very well written.
And of course DMCA doesn't apply to Franko as foreign laws are not enforceable in Scotland...
No, but EUCD does apply to Franko & it's worse than DMCA.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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Wow finally someone who knows where I can legally purchase Workbench 3.1 disks, this is good news, please share this with the rest of the community for future reference... :)
PS: I know I can purchase 3.1 ROMS from AmigaKit but not the Workbench 3.1 disks... :(
I think AmigaKit have said that they are expecting some NOS 3.1 disks, is that right?
AH
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@ Cloanto
You'll be pleased to know that I have removed and actually deleted myself all links and ADF files in relationship to Workbench.
You're probably asking why the sudden change of heart or was I forced to delete them, well no I wasn't forced to delete them, I chose to do so for the very simple reason that... Upon reflecting what I was trying to do here on behalf of myself and for the Amiga Community then I have decided (and sorry to all the decent guys out there who supported me on this to one degree or another) that there are too many -=Moderated=- in this so called Amiga Community that make such an endeavour a total waste of my time & money.
There are more decent folk who post on this site than the -=Moderated=- who also post here, but these -=Moderated=- who like nothing better than making anything anyone tries to do that may benefit the Amiga Community just not worth it.
Mostly they are the usual suspects who have never owned or used a real Amiga in years (if ever they ever did at all) and even worse are the ones who because they have written some crap piece of software that has nothing to do with the real Amiga hardware, somehow think they should automatically be respected and everyone should bow down before them and pat their over inflated egos and boost their idiotic feelings of self importance, then as I say It's just not worth me caring about any longer.
So feel free to continue with any legal action you may wish to take or have started to take already against me, I'll deal with that when it comes.
As of now I've removed everything you wanted and if there are any more you think I should know about then feel free to contact me and I will remove those too.
As for me I'm out of this whole farce of a subject as I really couldn't give a -=Moderated=- anymore about it or the so called Amiga Community... :)
Yours Sincerely
Frank Spiers
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As I say both of them are very badly written pieces of legislation but at least with EUCD you get the opportunity to defend yourself first... :)
EUCD doesn't come into it, it doesn't offer any safe haven.
This part of the DMCA is like a plee bargain, it's a get out of jail free card for the site. It's in their interest to blindly take it, if they fight it then the consequences for them are significantly higher than just deleting your files (where the consequences are nothing).
Basically whether they ask you or not is irrelevant. You can't really contest it either, you knowingly infringed on copyright. All you are whinging about is how unfair it is that you can't get away with breaking the law. I won't lose any sleep over that.
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Neither of the two things it criminilizes is copyright infringement.
You're arguing semantics..
It's a law involving the right to copy certain copyrighted material..
You know how silly it sounds to say its not a Copyright law, given it's definition as a law involving copyrighted material (albeit a subset that are encrypted)?
Must just be me.. :roflmao:
desiv
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I really couldn't give a -=Moderated=- anymore about it or the so called Amiga Community
Does this also mean that you will be leaving this site? I can't claim I'd miss you if you did.
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Does this also mean that you will be leaving this site? I can't claim I'd miss you if you did.
+1
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You're arguing semantics..
It's a law involving the right to copy certain copyrighted material..
It's not semantics. Copyright law allows the copyright holder to control when copying takes place.
DMCA covers removing DRM, even if you haven't infringed on anyones copyright. Your copying might be fair use, but you still can't bypass the DRM.
DMCA doesn't give or take away any copyright rights. The safe haven doesn't give anyone a right to copy either, it just says that if they take down copyright infringing files then they won't be prosecuted. This is completely different from them having any rights.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
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It's not semantics.
I disagree..
According to the government, it is:
http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
But you know best... :)
desiv
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I disagree..
According to the government, it is:
www.copyright.gov/legislation/ (http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/)dmca.pdf
But you know best... :)
Thanks for acknowledging that, it's the first intelligent thing you've said.
The copyright office is involved in it, circumvention of access control to copyright works is covered by it. However the only part that is involved with copyright infringement is the safe haven, which limits liability and doesn't give any rights to copying.
So it doesn't give or take away any right to copy, therefore it is not a copyright law.
If you don't get it after I've repeatedly explained it, then there is no hope.
Maybe you could try reading the pdf, but it says the same things with more words.
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@ Piru - Clonato
Frank may want to stop hosting the Amiga OS ADF's.....but I may start.....in fact I think everyone who agrees with this and wants to keep the memory of the Amiga alive should join in.....which should be EVERYONE on this site seems it is an AMIGA forum!
If not.....go and buy yourself a Windows PC and be happy.......
Does this also mean that you will be leaving this site? I can't claim I'd miss you if you did.
*Coughs* - Oh did I say that aloud?
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Actually, most of us don't need to host images of the Amiga OS disks. I made copies of them when I got my first Amiga with a hard drive pre 1990 because I didn't trust floppies. Then DMS images, then ADF images.
So don't know how hosting copies of disks keeps the memory of Amiga alive. I bring Amigas to Gaming conventions in the area and let people play games on them in order to do that.
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So it doesn't give or take away any right to copy, therefore it is not a copyright law.
That's where I think you are wrong..
You are assuming that a "Copyright Law" is ONLY the part of the law that involves copying..
I believe it is any law handled by the Copyright Office that involves Copyrights, not just the actual copying..
Which is why I said it's semantics..
If you don't get it after I've repeatedly explained it, then there is no hope. Maybe you could try reading the pdf, but it says the same things with more words.
So, if someone disagrees with you, they can't read and have no hope..
Interesting...
I just think you're being silly, but probably fairly intelligent..
desiv
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Does this also mean that you will be leaving this site? I can't claim I'd miss you if you did.
In an imperfect world healthy debate it good. How loathsome a place where everyone thinks exactly alike.
I'll agree some insults around here making me question the average maturity level though.
Plaz
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I'll agree some insults around here making me question the average maturity level though.
Yeah. Franko's hardly the only offender in that department, though.
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originally posted by franko (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=638989#post638989)
i really couldn't give a shit anymore about it or the so called amiga community
does this also mean that you will be leaving this site? I can't claim i'd miss you if you did.
+1000
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Yeah. Franko's hardly the only offender in that department, though.
No I'm not singling out anyone. Besides, Franko gives me laugh more often than not.
But Franko, you're last few comments about the "community" you've come to join are off base.
Yeah, I know... you probably don't care what I think. If you did you wouldn't be Franko. ;)
Plaz
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Methinks Franko got royally and legally buttfucked and removed disk images :roflmao:
As for pirating Amiga Forever.....lol don't make me laugh....there are far better pre-installed setups that run better and simpler.
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You know my respect for some people here has really disappeared (not talking about Franko) i never knew you were such brainless zombie mouthing the same thing over and over again and your childish remarks and behavior has me baffled even my 6 yo wouldn't do some of the things you people do.
I like a good argument as much as anyone but this is plain stupidity, reminds me of a school yard where there is always one chump head and his little followers trying to bully everyone else.
But since your all legal experts earning millions a year then you must be right.......
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Methinks Franko got royally
Seems instead he found this group wasn't worth the effort of an argument.
How about an edit on the rest of that mess before someone warms up the report button?
Plaz
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@ Cloanto
You'll be pleased to know that I have removed and actually deleted myself all links and ADF files in
(pointless pathetic drivel)
Ha ha!
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Who really gives a -=Moderated=- about workbench disks? Serisously...talk about outdated, outclassed museum pieces. One would think that the original sources were being distributed. May Aros 68K get ironed out and put all of these issues under. May Aros x86 continue to thrive. And may any two bit copyright holder of whatever burn in the face of open sourced Aros derivatives. What a joke.....And I say this as a workbench floppy disk purchaser from dealers and Amiga Forever purchaser up to version 2011. I say it as a multiple 68K machine operator, a WinUAE operator. What a joke... Back in the day when Commodore was still alive, there was no thought of lawyers. Now the prime directive in post Commodore Amiga-land is all legalese -=Moderated=-. What a joke. Does one see this in the post Commodore 8bit world? Nope. How about the post Atari world? Nope. How about the post MS-DOS world? Nope. Go into Amiga land and one can traverse mountain upon mountain of defecation. What a joke. Amiga is not that great. It isn't. Even all modern attempts at resurrecting it means to eventually be limited by the API, or whatever... What the hell is so great about Amiga anymore? Seriously.... What a joke. Talk about taking any and all fun out of things. Amiga is old school, it will never ever come back beyond the legalistic hobby market it tries living in. It is dead. I operate these blasted machines and I am almost getting sick of it all. It is almost time for a mega ebay auction... What a joke..... This is the most -=Moderated=- operating system from a political standpoint that exists. Lawyers are -=Moderated=-. Is this hard to comprehend? Courts are the same. Is this such a stretch of the imagination? It is almost time to create a new Amiga. Its own code. Its own trademarks or copyrights. A bozo staff of 100 lawyers can work 24/7 fighting all of the legal battles sure to ensue. What a joke.
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Ha ha!
Damn. I was going to quote your schadenfreude for posterity so you couldn't edit it away.
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Who really gives a -=Moderated=- about workbench disks? Serisously...talk about outdated, outclassed museum pieces. One would think that the original sources were being distributed. May Aros 68K get ironed out and put all of these issues under. May Aros x86 continue to thrive. And may any two bit copyright holder of whatever burn in the face of open sourced Aros derivatives. What a joke.....And I say this as a workbench floppy disk purchaser from dealers and Amiga Forever purchaser up to version 2011. I say it as a multiple 68K machine operator, a WinUAE operator. What a joke... Back in the day when Commodore was still alive, there was no thought of lawyers. Now the prime directive in post Commodore Amiga-land is all legalese -=Moderated=-. What a joke. Does one see this in the post Commodore 8bit world? Nope. How about the post Atari world? Nope. How about the post MS-DOS world? Nope. Go into Amiga land and one can traverse mountain upon mountain of defecation. What a joke. Amiga is not that great. It isn't. Even all modern attempts at resurrecting it means to eventually be limited by the API, or whatever... What the hell is so great about Amiga anymore? Seriously.... What a joke. Talk about taking any and all fun out of things. Amiga is old school, it will never ever come back beyond the legalistic hobby market it tries living in. It is dead. I operate these blasted machines and I am almost getting sick of it all. It is almost time for a mega ebay auction... What a joke..... This is the most -=Moderated=- operating system from a political standpoint that exists. Lawyers are -=Moderated=-. Is this hard to comprehend? Courts are the same. Is this such a stretch of the imagination? It is almost time to create a new Amiga. Its own code. Its own trademarks or copyrights. A bozo staff of 100 lawyers can work 24/7 fighting all of the legal battles sure to ensue. What a joke.
Well said.
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That's where I think you are wrong..
You are assuming that a "Copyright Law" is ONLY the part of the law that involves copying..
I'm not assuming anything. DMCA doesn't cover copying. Using DeCSS is a DMCA violation even when you are using original DVD's.
It's no hope as you're purposefully misunderstanding what the act says because you want to win an argument.
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Back in the day when Commodore was still alive, there was no thought of lawyers.
I guess you don't know about all the pirates that were busted in those days. It wasn't the people who copied games who got raided, it was the ones operating pobox numbers who were involved in large scale piracy.
Putting adf's on a web page isn't the same as two kids swapping games and copying them at home. One nobody even knows about, while putting prominent links on a public site is going to get noticed real quick.
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This thread turned out to be a waste of time... :)
Only this one? Take a moment to reflect upon all your other threads too :roflmao:
AH
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Have we learnt who owns anything? If Clonato have the license to release Workbench in AF and are so well loved by whoever owns Amiga OS, then it would be easier for them to release Amiga OS Floppies, and I mean floppies, for us classic users with broken discs that didnt make a backup or lost it! Clonato would be happy at making £5 / £10 an OS. We would be happy that we could buy a new copy! Simples!?
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I disagree that this thread has been a waste of time.
It has at least shown that there are those willing to speak up against the 'grave robbers' who are ripping off REAL Amiga users. My regards to those people, & thankyou.
As for the rest ? Well, they have nothing to say & they're damned well going to say it.
Make a statement - ANY statement - & there are those here who will pick it apart because they are experts in EVERYTHING & they know better. If it's 100% technically correct then they'll make a huge issue about some minor mistake of grammar. Or anything, in fact.
I tell you, if God were a member of this forum, there'd be those who tell him they could have designed the Chaffinch better, that the sky doesn't work properly, or that under certain, artificially engineered lighting conditions, (that can only exist for 1000th of a second) the colour of fruitflies infringes US patent #32460787841743509679646 (1903).
Screw 'em.
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@thread
Pfft.
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I guess you don't know about all the pirates that were busted in those days. It wasn't the people who copied games who got raided, it was the ones operating pobox numbers who were involved in large scale piracy.
Putting adf's on a web page isn't the same as two kids swapping games and copying them at home. One nobody even knows about, while putting prominent links on a public site is going to get noticed real quick.
This is very true. I normally try to avoid the piracy talk but I will say there's a difference between kids swapping games that are being sold, and people downloading said game 20 years later for a platform that has been dead for who knows how long.
I know it's copyright infringement either way, but they'd be damn hard pressed to show what losses were incurred because you downloaded Shadow of the Beast for the amiga.
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I know it's copyright infringement either way, but they'd be damn hard pressed to show what losses were incurred because you downloaded Shadow of the Beast for the amiga.
What about if it was available on virtual console/xbox live/psn?
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What about if it was available on virtual console/xbox live/psn?
That wouldn't help a hell of a lot for those of us who don't have a current-gen console, now, would it? Certainly VC and the like are cool services for console owners, and it's neat that the manufacturers are finally starting to cotton to the idea that gamers might like to play stuff that's older than five years, but some of us would just like to play our games on the real thing, thankyoumuch.
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What about if it was available on virtual console/xbox live/psn?
Easier to prove a loss I imagine as there's now an actual product involved.
Now, Im not sure how many xbox downloads they could show are lost because you downloaded the floppy version of a 20 year gone computer.
But at least we're sort of closer
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Seems instead he found this group wasn't worth the effort of an argument.
How about an edit on the rest of that mess before someone warms up the report button?
Plaz
Almost correct in your assumption but not quite... ;)
You see this thread became nothing more than the usual armchair experts in all things copyright and legal experts in their own minds, posting the usual repetitive drivel on their own "expert" (but highly flawed) interpretations of the various copyright/ trademark laws, as usual they failed to even comprehend the original topic and question... :(
It also became nothing more than certain folk who haven't owned or used a real Amiga in years doing their best (for whatever strange reason they have) of trying to prevent genuine Amiga hardware users from being able to obtain easily some very old software that no-one who allegedly owns it could care less about... :(
The only good that came of this thread was the revelation that Cloanto, despite not being the copyright holders are the only party guilty of preventing this 20 odd year old software from being made easily and legally available to those who still wish to obtain it... :(
So I removed all my posts as a) I had found part of the answer I was looking for (all be it unexpectedly) and b) to make the the pathetic drivel of the armchair lawyers look even more pathetic and ridiculous than they really are (if that is at all possible)... :)
So there you have it, the thread partially served its purpose and provided me with some of the answers I was seeking and now I can carry on quietly with my original intention of getting to the bottom of all this without the distraction of the loony copyright mafia squad... :)
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The only good that came of this thread was the revelation that Cloanto, despite not being the copyright holders are the only party guilty of preventing this 20 odd year old software from being made easily and legally available to those who still wish to obtain it... :(
Maybe it isn't Cloanto's fault if they only hold the license for emulation.
But all maybe not lost, there maybe a solution to keep everyone happy.
Bare with, watch this space and we will see if anything happens.
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Almost correct in your assumption but not quite... ;)
You see this thread became nothing more than the usual armchair experts in all things copyright and legal experts in their own minds, posting the usual repetitive drivel on their own "expert" (but highly flawed) interpretations of the various copyright/ trademark laws, as usual they failed to even comprehend the original topic and question... :(
I would say the opposite is true. You are the one who didn't understand the legal aspects and had to back down, not the "armchair experts."
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trying to prevent genuine Amiga hardware users from being able to obtain easily some very old software that no-one who allegedly owns it could care less about... :(
At least I personally have absolutely no problem with someone downloading a Workbench disk ADF to replace a dead one. In my view they can consider the download as being a "remote backup" of their original disk.
I don't fit your description though. I have two amigas at home and I do use the A500 occasionally.
Cloanto, despite not being the copyright holders are the only party guilty of preventing this 20 odd year old software from being made easily and legally available to those who still wish to obtain it... :(
They're both obliged to take action (see http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-122: "When we receive reports about web sites which are claimed to provide such files, we are obliged by law and by contract to take some action.") and it's sensible course of action to protect their investment.
I can carry on quietly with my original intention of getting to the bottom of all this
Good luck with this endeavour. I hope you'll use less controversial methods in the future though.
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@ Dammy
Stick to MooBunny Dammy, at least over there your babblings are a bit more entertaining (not much but a bit)... :)
That reminds me I'd better nip over and see what insults you've come up with for me today... :lol:
@ Piru
No offence Piru but I don't wish to converse with a humourless android... :)
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We have sourced quite a few NOS Workbench 3.1 packages to supply with the Natami.
the ones BBRV got from Petro? (http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=25715&forum=25&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0#433993)
#6
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Upload the files here so your provider doesn't complain! https://rapidshare.com/
That would be illegal and breaking the GBT of rapidshare.
Markus
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Do you actively ignore what people are writing?
This is NOT about getting "great Virtual Machine software".
This is about getting legal replacements for Workbench disks suitable for installation on REAL Amigas.
Using Amiga Forever contents for that purpose is illegal according to Cloanto.
What is unclear?
They can write what they want, into their EULA. If they sell AF in Switzerland , then you can make with this CDs and their contents what you want. So you can make as many copies for real Amigas as you happened to own.
Markus
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I dug this up out of the usenet archives circa 1993. Not legally binding, but I thought it interesting anyway. Check out the bit I have in bold underline and the apparent CBM official posting....
Plaz
Carolyn Scheppner - CATS Mar 2 1993, 9:54 pm
In article crys...@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crysta|) writes:
>Hello,
.....
However, if you have an A1000 and copy a friend's Kickstart because
yours went bad, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.
.....
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
/\/\ /\/\ Carolyn Scheppner - Technical Manager - CATS U.S.
( ^^ ) ( -- ) CATS - Commodore Applications and Technical Support
`--' `--' uunet!cbmvax!carolyn caro...@commodore.com BIX:cscheppner
That 100% the way Commodore Switzerland handeled the case of copying Kicks and WB up to Version 2.1. They changed it somewhat with OS3.1, as you had to have the original disk to get a replacementcopy from the dealer. BUT they never complaint about copying amongst friends.
Markus
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I'm not assuming anything. DMCA doesn't cover copying.
It's handled by the Copyright Office. It involves copying..
I don't see how you don't get this...
Using DeCSS is a DMCA violation even when you are using original DVD's.
True, and when you use DeCSS, you are making a copy from the encrypted version on DVD to an unencrypted version on your hard disk.
It is a copy... You can't decrypt withOUT copying...
Hence, why the Copyright Office is involved in DMCA...
It's no hope as you're purposefully misunderstanding what the act says because you want to win an argument.
And as I have been saying that you are arguing semantics (allowing us both to have valid opinions), I was specifically NOT trying to win the argument..
However, as you can't even understand that, never mind. It's not semantics..
You're just wrong.. :argue: :p:p
Relax...
desiv
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I think the question of whether a EULA is enforceable or not is really still up in the air. No court on the planet has rule on EULAs in general but rather specific wording in specific EULAs. It's going to also vary country to country. I would tend to say that using the ROMs in physical hardware that you own *may* be legal in some countries.
The trouble is that Cloanto could Microsoft a small hobby company, that is overwhelm them with lawyers and make it difficult and expensive to fight and easy to capitulate.
If cars had EULAs they would state the the manufacturer wasn't liable if the breaks failed or the fuel tank exploded, and that you couldn't look inside the engine compartment.
If a sandwich had a EULA the manufacturer wouldn't be responsible for botulism or random bits of rat, and you can't open your sandwich to take a look at what's on it.
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And as I have been saying that you are arguing semantics (allowing us both to have valid opinions), I was specifically NOT trying to win the argument..
You are entitled to your opinion, but you started arguing with me.
While I agree that being involved with the copyright office and the fact copyright is in the name would indicate that it has something to do with copyright, nothing within the act itself has added or removed anything from copyright law.
The saying "never judge a book by it's cover" is appropriate.
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That wouldn't help a hell of a lot for those of us who don't have a current-gen console, now, would it? Certainly VC and the like are cool services for console owners, and it's neat that the manufacturers are finally starting to cotton to the idea that gamers might like to play stuff that's older than five years, but some of us would just like to play our games on the real thing, thankyoumuch.
Well go buy a second hand copy then. There are plenty around & right now with so much piracy people are just putting them in land fill.
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as usual they failed to even comprehend the original topic and question... :(
The answer to the topic is: for real floppy disks buy NOS original sets from amigakit or second hand originals. For emulation in any guise (minimig, mcc216 & natami counts as emulation) then amiga forever.
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Has any one tried to getting anything amiga out of gateway? since they own amiga ip
http://uk.gateway.com/contact.html
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The answer to the topic is: for real floppy disks buy NOS original sets from amigakit or second hand originals. For emulation in any guise (minimig, mcc216 & natami counts as emulation) then amiga forever.
If Minimig, MCC216 and Natami counts as emulation, then something like C64DTV counts as emulation too. The transistors and logic gates are just as real in a FPGA as they are in a industrially constructed ASIC.
If the C64DTV counts as emulation too, then basically every reconstruction of a certain chipset ever is going to count as emulation only, even if one made a carbon copy of an A1200.
I do not think that is going to hold up legally at all. Cloanto has gotten a license for providing software for UAE use only, and that is what they state in their FAQ.
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If the C64DTV counts as emulation too, then basically every reconstruction of a certain chipset ever is going to count as emulation only, even if one made a carbon copy of an A1200.
C64DTV does count as an emulation.
A carbon copy of an A1200 wouldn't be an emulation, however you would be violating copyright by making a direct copy.
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So, a recreation of an A1200 would not be an emulation, but as soon as you start to change or add something like a port or a graphics mode it starts becoming an emulation again? I do not agree.
But very well. No matter what your personal definition of emulation is, Cloanto only have a license to distribute software for use with UAE only and they clearly state that themselves. Therefore, your recommendation of using AmigaForever as a legal means to get operating system software for the aforementioned platforms is not a very good one.
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As it turned out, this thread was a waste of time... :)
Not by a long shot :cool:
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Not by a long shot :cool:
Ahh.. a cryptic message... just what I needed... :rolleyes:
Possibilities are...
A) Someone who genuinely supports what I am trying to do...
B) Someone from Cloanto or a supporter of them, thinks they have found something to make a legal case out of...
C) A nutter...
D) My other self posting under a new name and I haven't told myself about it yet...
Take yer pick... ;)
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http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/woman-arrested-for-driving-in-saudi-arabia/ (http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/woman-arrested-for-driving-in-saudi-arabia/)
This woman was arrested for posting a video on the internet of herself driving!! OMG!
Sounds like some people in here.
Woman are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, so they are trying to get get together through the Internet to teach each other how to drive. They think they should have a right to know how to drive in cases of emergency, such as having having a heart attack, dieing child, etc.
Cloanto follwers....err I mean men of Saudi Arabia claim this is ridiculous and that the law is clear--- you can already buy AmigaForever and get ADFs.....err I mean, "women both Saudi and foreign, are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia; women must hire a driver for $300 - $400 a month. "
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@ AmigaHeretic
I suppose these women could get an emulator to drive the car for them (all done virtually of course) and that way they wouldn't be a danger to society, unless the emulator happens to crash due to running a dodgy version of WorkBench on it or worse one download from my site... :)
Pretty sure there's a site out there selling such an emulator or failing that they might find something on AmiNet for free... :)
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The answer to the topic is: for real floppy disks buy NOS original sets from amigakit or second hand originals. For emulation in any guise (minimig, mcc216 & natami counts as emulation) then amiga forever.
It seems that the answer is now for Floppies, use Google and pirate them, and for emulation, download the free WinUAE or UAE and either grab ROMS from your own computer or trusty Google again. This whole thread has soured me terribly on Cloanto.
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It seems that the answer is now for Floppies, use Google and pirate them, and for emulation, download the free WinUAE or UAE and either grab ROMS from your own computer or trusty Google again. This whole thread has soured me terribly on Cloanto.
I agree. I've been a big fan of Cloanto's Amiga Forever package and bought several copies over the years. I won't "buy" another.
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"This whole thread has soured me terribly on Cloanto."
Me too. I used to support them, because at least they bring a product to market, (whether you find it useful or not is your own concern) but they've handled this whole affair very badly indeed.
They could have explained themselves right here, so that everyone understood their position, or they could have PM'd Franko & explained it. I'm sure he would have listened to their point of view if it was put to him in a level, reasoned way.
Instead they chose a route that makes them look very poor indeed without answering the question originally posed in this thread. The resulting "discussion" (I use the term loosely, lol) has probably alerted a large number of potential customers that a similar (if not better) package to their own can be put together for free.
If the intention was simply to 'protect' their own interests, then I'd say they just scored a beauty of an own goal.
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and for emulation, download the free WinUAE or UAE and either grab ROMS from your own computer
The resulting "discussion" (I use the term loosely, lol) has probably alerted a large number of potential customers that a similar (if not better) package to their own can be put together for free.
Like this hasn't already been common knowledge for the last 15 years...
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"Like this hasn't already been common knowledge for the last 15 years..."
Typical amiga.org smartass facecious comment. Not everyone has been here for 15 years. Comprende ?
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"Like this hasn't already been common knowledge for the last 15 years..."
Typical amiga.org smartass facecious comment. Not everyone has been here for 15 years. Comprende ?
+1
I guess all the new folk who post here asking where can I find this or that must be lacking in this "common knowledge" and therefore not worthy of an answer in some folks eyes... ;)
@ Damion
There are new folk to the Amiga scene all the time (as this site proves) who have never owned an Amiga in their lives, you can't expect them to have some miraculous knowledge about where to find things or does passing on this knowledge not sit too well with you... ;)
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Like this hasn't already been common knowledge for the last 15 years...
Well, if you would look on the main page, there's a gentleman who just dug his A1000 out of his mom's basement and has no kickstart or workbench disks. He's looking for one, but I'm pretty sure just asking for one violates the sites TOS for "NO WAREZ." He would prefer not to steal. As would I. So, if you are saying that owning a classic Amiga forces your hand, well...that sucks! This is the reason Franko started this thread, not because he is an attention whore, as Koftader stated here and on Moobunny, but because people deserve to be able to legally obtain proper disks for their classic machines. So, to answer your question -- it is not common knowledge, and even if it were, does not make it right.
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@ Damion
Just to help show you that your idea that this is "common knowledge" isn't quite true, then please read this post from just a few days ago... ;)
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=638124&postcount=7
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Well, if you would look on the main page, there's a gentleman who just dug his A1000 out of his mom's basement and has no kickstart or workbench disks. He's looking for one, but I'm pretty sure just asking for one violates the sites TOS for "NO WAREZ." He would prefer not to steal. As would I. So, if you are saying that owning a classic Amiga forces your hand, well...that sucks! This is the reason Franko started this thread, not because he is an attention whore, as Koftader stated here and on Moobunny, but because people deserve to be able to legally obtain proper disks for their classic machines. So, to answer your question -- it is not common knowledge, and even if it were, does not make it right.
I don't get it, how will Franko offering pirated wares going to help this guy when he obviously needs Amiga formatted disk with WB on them? Some how I can't Franko offering to send people Amiga formatted disk with WB on them that too many people would be complaining about it because:
1. Only an Amiga would be able to use it (minus catweasle or other floppy controller/emulator owners).
2. It that format, pirates wouldn't be interested in it.
Too much work for Franko and he doesn't get the instant gratification of having his name talked about a million times, hence no ego stroke. Quick PM to the user looking for it for an address to send the disk to, and it's all done and finished. Can't have that, no one would be talking about Franko that way.
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Hi Dammy
What's the matter with MooBunny today too scary for you... ;)
Plenty of PMs go back and forward each day along with private emails so no worries on that score, got that side of things well covered... :)
PS: I only help out folk with real Amiga hardware not pretend stuff like you use, so I wont be sending you any freebies... :)
Strange how you're the person who uses my name the most be it here or over on MooBunny, awful nice of you to go to all the bother of stroking my ego... ta very glad for always thinking of me... :)
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I don't get it, how will Franko offering pirated wares going to help this guy when he obviously needs Amiga formatted disk with WB on them? Some how I can't Franko offering to send people Amiga formatted disk with WB on them that too many people would be complaining about it because:
1. Only an Amiga would be able to use it (minus catweasle or other floppy controller/emulator owners).
2. It that format, pirates wouldn't be interested in it.
Too much work for Franko and he doesn't get the instant gratification of having his name talked about a million times, hence no ego stroke. Quick PM to the user looking for it for an address to send the disk to, and it's all done and finished. Can't have that, no one would be talking about Franko that way.
Well, in a proper world it wouldn't be Franko at all, it would be the actual copyright holders or retailers (Vesalia, AmigaKit), and the gentleman could buy it properly. I get that you and red and many others just hate Franko. Apart from that, I believe Franko was genuinely trying to get a hold of the proper copyright holders whether you approve of his methods or not (who were a no-show), and that if given the opportunity, would love to buy actual floppies or ADFs of the actual software.
There is so much retarded hate in this community over stuff decided 15 years ago. Amiga LOST. It is barely a market. If you want it even to be a barely thriving niche hobby, the issue of classic OS needs to get resolved. Stealing should not be an option. Forking out money for AF should not be an option. The option should be to plunk down some moolah to Vesalia or AmigaKit to download or purchase floppies and ROMS from 1.0 to 3.1 of the classic OS. Hell, most of it could be made to order (in the case of ROMS).
When AROS is 1.0 Final, there may be a different landscape. It's time to stop letting stupid pride get in the way of the thing that brought us all together.
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+1000
Are you talking about Franko or Piru? :confused:
I'm sorry you weren't specific... :)
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WinUAE isn't common knowledge within the community? Are you serious?
As far as passing on knowledge, here ya go Franko (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&biw=1059&bih=641&source=hp&q=amiga+configuring+WinUAE&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=6af0f014ae16db6c)... I hope you and your pals accept my great offering to the community! :P
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When AROS is 1.0 Final, there may be a different landscape. It's time to stop letting stupid pride get in the way of the thing that brought us all together.
Nobody hates the amiga more than the amigans
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OK i have just read this thread for the first time starting from this last page all the way to the first (why do i always do this?) and i have made my own opinions as follows:
1 - This thread is complete crap. Most of it is not worth reading and i think the only purpose it has is an excuse for users to have a bitch slap with other users :bitch:
2 - I think the reason why Franko never got a response was because they know better. If the contact was a legitimate approach of a business nature they no doubt would have responded but otherwise why waste time answering silly trolling messages? They no doubt would be familiar with the behaviour and mannerisms of Amigans so they would have dismissed any "formal" contact for what it really was/is, an elaborate attempt at a hoax and just trolling in general. I wonder if Franko would have got a response from Apple? I doubt it.
I don't think this thread is enough reason to start bashing Cloanto so please stop.
3 - Franko constantly repeating "this thread was a complete waste of time :)" all the time is really annoying!
Is it a coincidence that him repeating this has kept his green activity bar at 100%? Franko stop cheating! If want the distinction of a 100% activity bar you have to do it properly! :hammer:
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It's time to stop letting stupid pride get in the way of the thing that brought us all together.
Yes, and that would be:
Making fun of Atari ST owners for being so stupid that they even made 68K Mac owners looks slightly less stupid themselves??
:)
desiv
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Yes, and that would be:
Making fun of Atari ST owners for being so stupid that they even made 68K Mac owners looks slightly less stupid themselves??
:)
desiv
Yes! :lol:
Although I wonder if Atari users have to deal with the BS surrounding their OS....
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Opps i get it now. He has been posting "this thread was a complete waste of time :)" because he edited all his posts. My bad. He had better hurry up and make a post or his green bar will hit 99% :eek:
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Opps i get it now. He has been posting "this thread was a complete waste of time :)" because he edited all his posts. My bad. He had better hurry up and make a post or his green bar will hit 99% :eek:
You're quick aint ya... :lol:
Methinks that bump on the noggin has taken effect... :)
(Just topping up to 100% again...) ;)
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Yep! That's what happens when you read from the back to the front. You get confused. I read books like that too. Why is everything so confusing? :confused:
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Yep! That's what happens when you read from the back to the front. You get confused. I read books like that too. Why is everything so confusing? :confused:
You cheat... :(
I bet you read the last page of any murder mystery book to find out who dunnit... :)
In which case you could have just gone to the last page here at the start of all this and found oot who dunnit, then you could have told us all and saved everyone typing all these posts over so many pages the bother... ;)
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Hey! I didn't think of that. Great idea! :)
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WinUAE isn't common knowledge within the community? Are you serious?
As far as passing on knowledge, here ya go Franko (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&biw=1059&bih=641&source=hp&q=amiga+configuring+WinUAE&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=6af0f014ae16db6c)... I hope you and your pals accept my great offering to the community! :P
Well As I've said plenty of times before, I've been an Amiga user since day one and I only discovered this thing called WinUAE in 2008 so there you go now you can check out this, (http://www.lifesciences.napier.ac.uk/smaefiles/wlinton-broughton/wlinton-broughton.htm) my small offering to the fake Amiga community... :)
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Although I wonder if Atari users have to deal with the BS surrounding their OS....
No, they went the AROS route a long time ago with MiNT to provide a free and open alternative OS. It went so well that Atari just as well dropped their own TOS and shipped their last systems with MiNT instead.
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Breaking News.... :)
Old Mrs Johnstone across the road has just exploded in a puff of green smoke... :eek:
There are bits of her all over me front lawn... :eek:
Methinks she shouldn't have ate all them Brussel Sprout I stuffed through her letterbox... :)
Oh well better get me shovel... :)
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Franko's dancin' with Mrs. Johnstone
She's been knockin', she won't leave him alone
(http://pop.wizbangblog.com/images/2006/06/AxelRose.jpg)
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Franko's dancin' with Mrs. Johnstone
She's been knockin', she won't leave him alone
(http://pop.wizbangblog.com/images/2006/06/AxelRose.jpg)
Me camera's not working right now, so I guess this picture and a bit of imagination will have to do... :)
(http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=108&pictureid=770)
PS: I think she'll be all right once I scrape all the bits up and dig out me superglue... :)