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Author Topic: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)  (Read 2191 times)

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Offline mr_a500Topic starter

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #14 from previous page: January 28, 2007, 11:42:51 PM »
@koaftder

You obviously didn't read the linked article. Read it, then tell me that it's "nothing new". :roll:

Quote
Point 2 is childishly phobic.


No, I agree with point 2. Anyone who has ever personally seen American missionaries at work outside of the US (like I have) or who has done consulting work for a US corporation knows that this is 100% true. (I quit the job in protest, by the way)

Offline klesterjr

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2007, 11:43:53 PM »
Quote

countzero wrote:
ask that to John Buscema and Ernie Chan.


John Buscema -- my all time favorite artist.  :-)
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2007, 11:59:20 PM »
Quote

mr_a500 wrote:
@koaftder

You obviously didn't read the linked article. Read it, then tell me that it's "nothing new". :roll:


I did read the article. The specifics are new, but the concept and affect on the users is not.

And the article is not right on the highlight about Hollywood driving all these aspects. its multifaceted. You think Microsoft likes random companies pushing code in ring 0 without checks? Of course not. Thats bad for MS and bad for the users, and it's bad for small developers ( bad for them the limits, this also affects users). Everybody gets screwed.

Software companies have tried to control the users of the content since software was ever developed. It is only an issue now because it affects main stream public now. Before then it was not news.
 

Offline MASACREWILL

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2007, 12:54:19 AM »
1. it is going to be hacked sooner or later

2. HDTV quality movies are not "a must" for me as a PC user

3. no one needs such OS anyway
..A1200/ElBOX Tower/Blizz1240-40/64 MB/Mediator LT4/VooDoo3/4xEIDE/80GB HDD/Realtek 8xxx/Samsung 17\\" SM711MP LCD TV monitor with SCART-IN for 15kHz stuff.. OS 3.5 + A600 HD new!  
Old things can not get obsoleted.. ;-)
 

Offline DonnyEMU

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2007, 03:38:24 AM »
This is all just envious horse hockey, I can do things with Vista that I have never EVER been able to do before even on the Amiga.. I have been using vista for nearly 2 years in one form or another it's protection has kept me virus and malware free (unlike XP), none of the things that you guys are complaining about has a shread of reality that renders the OS unusable.

You guys are just anti-microsoft and don't want them to win. I think if you actually tried to be less "religious" about computers you'd find a lot of reasons to be happy about it.

Either way it's your choice. I'd rather see posts about people and what they are doing with their Amiga's than the anti-Microsoft garbage. Isn't this what it's all about. I could point by point knock down every post and the points made about it and argue otherwise, but it's a waste of time. I prefer to enjoy my Vista Ultimate computer (which runs WinUAE just fine).. Than to waste time on this thread. You should think about what you are saying and how it sounds before posting..

Can't we all get along and do something more productive here..

Oh and this comment about "Bill Fleecing Customers".. You probably never worked for a Commodore store when the brought out 2.0 and 3.0 of the Amiga workbench and the complaining and moaning about upgrading, the costs, installing  the upgrade and the general chaos that normally goes along with that stuff. I did it's not any different than what I am reading about people considering the vista upgrade. Time seems to change peoples memories and make them more rosey.

I loved the guy who came in and grabbed me by the neck because his A1000 C-Ltd hard drive controller didn't automatically work with his 2.04 update pack.. So don't talk to me about IRATE customers and how Amiga owners had it soo much better.

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Offline InTheSand

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2007, 03:47:46 AM »
Hey, we all know Commodore was no angel!

But I'm curious to know what you're doing with Vista that couldn't be done before...

 - Ali
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2007, 03:50:28 AM »
Given that I have to re-activate Windows every time I change my hardware, I'm not a fan of DRM.

However, commercial companies are responsible for proliferating standards by supporting them.  A non-DRM standard is not going to become popular by default, because content providers will not support it.

To fix the problem, you have to understand the problem.  DRM is here to stay, like it or not.  I wish open-source developers were working as hard as the companies to develop a "good" DRM standard.  Blindly bashing DRM because it is "bad" is not going to help.  People need to bash formats for the right reasons.

Oh yeah, and Vista is not alone when it comes to DRM.  So, if you're going to bash something, make sure you bash the right people, too.

From the anti-DRM article:

"Disabling of Functionality"
The biggest problem, and valid.  I don't want content to stop working in the future, and I definately don't want it to stop working should I move it to another device that I own.

Supposedly, we license the right to use software.  However, DRM seems to stick to the physical media model, or at least the keys model.  By default, the actual usage conflicts with the license specification.

"Decreased Playback Quality"
Depends on the scaling technique.  This varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and it not caused directly by DRM.  The real question is how well Vista handles scaling, not whether it does it at all.  Almost everything does scaling, really.  Even [good] SDTV DVD players do some form of filtering because raw DVD signals look like crap.

"Elimination of Open-source Hardware Support"
This is all about licensing and documentation availability.  Documentation for drivers is the manufacturer's responsibility.  If they feel the open source market is too small or an IP risk, that's their call.  No different than it is today.  Having some trouble getting documentation from ATI to make a Linux driver?  Well, that's obviously because of Microsoft's driver model.

"Elimination of Unified Drivers"
I don't know much about unified drivers, but I do recall that when SATA was not built into chipsets, manufacturers had to make all their own drivers for each OS, and hell was the result.  Today, everything is integrated, so we have a unified driver, and all OSes do it the same way.  Only the early adopters got screwed.

"Denial-of-Service via Driver/Device Revocation"
Isn't this part of Decreased Playback Quality?  I find the TNT2 chipset example they provided as weak, partly because nVidia is responsible for keeping drivers up to date, and that chipset probably won't have a Vista driver at all.  That's not Microsoft's fault.  Also, I doubt Vista would try channeling premium content through an old graphics card in the first place (content is not actually written directly to the frame buffer in most cases), so decreased playback quality, not denial-of-service, would be the result.

"Decreased System Reliability"
BUNK.  If manufacturers don't follow specifications, that's not the fault of the spec, no matter how complex it may be.

Reliabilty follows commitment.  If driver developers are trying to cram in too many features and are sacrificing quality control to get their products to market as quickly as possible, no standard is going to help.  I recall ATI has had a wide variety of quality control issues with their drivers in the past.  They are going to take the easy way out and blame Vista?  Maybe they should dump "Catalyst Control Center" first.  Who on earth needs customizable skins for a friggin' driver?

"Increased Hardware Costs"
The same thing was said when USB was introduced.  I remember when USB printers and scanners had a $30 price premium over those that used the parallel port.  Anyone want to go back to RS232?  Didn't think so.

Quote from ATI:  "This increases motherboard design costs, increases lead times, and reduces OEM configuration flexibility. This cost is passed on to purchasers of multimedia PCs and may delay availability of high-performance platforms."

In other words, new hardware costs more than old hardware.  I supposed prices won't come down and budget hardware will cease to exist and all manufacturers everywhere will go bankrupt?

This sounds more like Nintendo whining that they can't afford to use anti-aliasing, HD graphics, and DVD playback, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to make a $60-$80 profit on every Wii they sell, while the rest of the competition makes money on 3rd-party royalties, instead.

The real question is whether any one company has an unfair competitive advantage.  If everyone has to do the same thing, it all balances out.  Somehow, I don't think ATI and nVidia will go to the poorhouse because they have to support DRM.  Don't these companies thrive on HD technology?  Don't they have all kinds of options for turning computers into movie players and media centers?  They complain about it because they would rather reap the benefits but not spend money making the hardware, which is odd since they specialize in video hardware.  So long as everyone else in the same boat, there really shouldn't be any unfair competition -- except by older standards which have fewer features.

"Increased Cost due to Requirement to License Unnecessary Third-party IP"
The key word is "unnecessary."  This is a valid concern, but you can thank the broken patent system for this.  Even JPEG2000 can't gain widespread acceptance because people are worried that somebody might suddenly and mysteriously claim they own a patent on it at some point.  You have to pay for technology.  If you don't like it, ask the open-source guys to make a decent DRM standard.  Companies are going to use DRM no matter what.  The public must influence corporations to use the right one.  It just so happens that the choices are bleak.

"Unnecessary CPU Resource Consumption"
ATI is complaining about this, while at the same time their GPUs have hardware-based decoders for DVD playback, vertex shaders, texture compression, and physics -- tasks that were all once handled by the CPU.

Doesn't ATI now belong to AMD, a CPU company, and together they are working to consolodate CPU and GPU design for greater efficiency?  Perhaps people should be complaining more about the lack of tools to utilize these interesting new hybrid architectures, rather than complain that the CPU has to do everything, which these days, it certainly doesn't.

Not that Amigans would know anything about custom hardware replacing the CPU, of course.

"Unnecessary Device Resource Consumption"
Refer to FLV files, or playing MPG movies in an Adobe Flash wrapper.  That's unnecessary resource consumption, but do companies complain about that?  Everybody has their own Flash MPG movie player these days.  In fact, there's too many damn incompatible formats because companies love them so much!

Quote
koaftder:  "Not any different from back in the day. We have always had DRM, even back in the 80's. Those discs that had purposly bad sectors that couldn't be copied, serials and dongles, etc. Nothing new. The only thing that is new is that the average guy deals with this crap now instead of us 'geeks'."


Indeed.  Oh, and don't forget typing in codes from manuals.  I remember games with copy protection so aggressive, half the time the games didn't boot at all.  The result?  After buying a legal copy, I got the cracked version so the damn thing actually worked!

Talk about disabling of functionality!
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2007, 03:56:49 AM »
Quote
1. it is going to be hacked sooner or later

I'll take the sooner.

Well ok, this only takes care of the "Decreased Playback Quality" point.
 

Offline alenppc

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2007, 04:21:33 AM »
Quote

The fact that Canada is included doesn't mean the US companies respect Canada. They just look at Canada as if it's part of the US - ignoring the fact that we don't use "US English" and use metric. The only time they ever modify their products for the Canadian market are when there are specific laws forcing them to. Apple is just as evil. They invented something they call "North American English" (which is US English) and you can't buy an Apple Computer or product in Canada with proper English. They won't even let you buy UK versions.


I've got quite a lot to say on the subject. One of the things that drive me nuts is that Windows copies sold, for instance, in the UK default to UK regional settings when you install them. Those sold in Canada default to US regional settings. Both versions use the US English (even those sold in the UK).

I know it's not the end of the world, but the fact that they can't even set the default regional setting properly is really annoying. Ok, I know it's no big deal to change it manually but the fact is that lots of big companies use automatic installation scripts, ghosts, pre-installed copies, or just don't pay any attention during installation and just click "Next" all the time. What this leads in the end is that roughly at least 80% of PCs configured in various workplaces nowadays are set up with the wrong regional settings. No big deal you might think, what's the worst that can happen? A couple of dates printed wrong, a couple of incorrect measurement units...? Unfortunately, businesses that provide services to outside clients lose millions of dollars every year because of this stupidity. I worked in more than one company that offered services to other clients, and the same problem would inevitably crop up few times a year in every workplace.

When you finish processing the product on a computer, which might be of any type you like, data, documents, images, software... It will inevitably end up with something being wrong. For instance, one of the projects I worked on for months for the Government of Canada got rejected because the data on the final product was printed with a wrong date format! In Canada for instance, the official date format is either "Jan 2, 2007" or "02/01/2007". When we sent the product to the client, which in this case was the Government, the dates printed were all wrong, bearing stuff like "01/2/2007"!! At this point we had to redo months of work just to correct this mistake and obviously we could not charge the client twice, because it was OUR mistake in the first place. But it's the same with legal firms or pretty much anything else where the strict adherence to official standards or laws is required.

All these companies should actually sue Microsoft for the money they lost because of them, maybe then they'll implement a proper default regional setting to Windows copies sold in Canada.

This is but a tip of the iceberg, as lots more could be said about this whole business. It becomes even funnier when you get American locale settings mixed up with documents printed in French... let's not even go into the subject of keyboards. I mean I could go on for hours...

EDIT: Oh, and btw Amazon.ca lists "Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic English Upgrade [DVD]" at CDN$ 129.99.

 

Offline mr_a500Topic starter

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2007, 05:15:51 AM »
Quote
DonnyEMU
I prefer to enjoy my Vista Ultimate computer (which runs WinUAE just fine).. Than to waste time on this thread.


It's funny that you say you don't want to waste time on this thread and yet you posted the single longest post so far. (now surpassed by Waccoon)

Quote
You should think about what you are saying and how it sounds before posting..


You should take your own advice. Not one of your points is relative to the linked article. Your post is the standard "you guys are just anti-microsoft" clichéd mindless response.

Do you even know what we're talking about here? We're not saying we can do more with Amiga Workbench than with Vista. We're not saying Commodore was a friendly corporation. We're not saying the Vista upgrade is a pain compared to Workbench upgrades. The whole frigging point of this thread is to warn people that Microsoft will use Vista DRM to create an even tighter monopoly than they ever had and there will be no escape no matter what OS you use. "So not only will Microsoft be able to lock out any competitors, but because they will then represent the only available distribution channel they'll be able to dictate terms back to the content providers..."

This is not just anti-Microsoft ranting and Microsoft is not the only evil company. Sony is going overboard with DRM (my Sony videocamera refused to allow me to copy my own recordings to my Sony VCR!). Apple is trying to create a music monopoly. If Commodore was alive today, I'm sure they'd have their share of evil.

Now, maybe you like your OS to check many times per second to make sure you're not stealing anything - using up resources. Maybe you like your OS to actively prevent you from doing things and deciding on its own what you can or can't do. Maybe you like your OS to arbitrarily decide that your hardware doesn't have enough protection and disables it for you or revokes its drivers. That's good for you. I think it's crap and I feel free to tell others about it whether you think it's "horse hockey" or not.

Offline mr_a500Topic starter

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2007, 05:28:48 AM »
Quote
I know it's not the end of the world, but the fact that they can't even set the default regional setting properly is really annoying. Ok, I know it's no big deal to change it manually but the fact is that lots of big companies use automatic installation scripts, ghosts, pre-installed copies, or just don't pay any attention during installation and just click "Next" all the time.


Ah, I see you've had problems too. You're right about it being "the tip of the iceberg". Part of the problem is that in Microsoft Word, dictionary is document based - meaning even if you change the many OS and application settings to have Canadian or UK English on your own computer, just about every document you receive from co-workers or other Canadians is in US English and you have to select every word in the docmument (including Header&Footer) and change it. Then of course, settings would occasionally go back to default US English for unknown reasons. It's almost like they made it difficult on purpose to force US spellings, formats and methods on Canada.

Offline DonnyEMU

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2007, 06:18:50 AM »
Quote
Now, maybe you like your OS to check many times per second to make sure you're not stealing anything - using up resources. Maybe you like your OS to actively prevent you from doing things and deciding on its own what you can or can't do. Maybe you like your OS to arbitrarily decide that your hardware doesn't have enough protection and disables it for you or revokes its drivers


Let's face it an era has ended of drm-free world has ended mostly because the abuses against creative folks by MP3 sharers who didn't pay their fair share to buy the music and creative works being produced. For every action there is a reaction.. You can choose just not to buy DRM protected files and buy that which is not protected. That will show your economic power and show as a consumer what you can accept or not accept. Blaming Microsoft and Vista (and even Apple) for peer sharing things like LimeWire, Napster and others actions is not really fair. They are just reacting to market conditions.

I have many files on Vista that are NOT DRM encoded and I'd just say that the stuff you are complaining about really doesn't effect daily usage. If I want to buy DRM I can, you still have choice even with Vista.

As far as signed drivers, on the PC it's a good idea because people are installing malware and viruses on them, making sure you are getting the real deal with a driver is a good thing..
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Offline Waccoon

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Re: Windows Content Protection (pure evil)
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2007, 06:39:20 AM »
Quote
Mr. A500:  Ah, I see you've had problems too. You're right about it being "the tip of the iceberg". Part of the problem is that in Microsoft Word, dictionary is document based - meaning even if you change the many OS and application settings to have Canadian or UK English on your own computer, just about every document you receive from co-workers or other Canadians is in US English and you have to select every word in the docmument (including Header&Footer) and change it. Then of course, settings would occasionally go back to default US English for unknown reasons. It's almost like they made it difficult on purpose to force US spellings, formats and methods on Canada.

Or maybe it's just lack of foresight.  Well, of course things like this never happen on other OSes.

Quote
DonnyEMU:  You can choose just not to buy DRM protected files and buy that which is not protected. That will show your economic power and show as a consumer what you can accept or not accept. Blaming Microsoft and Vista (and even Apple) for peer sharing things like LimeWire, Napster and others actions is not really fair. They are just reacting to market conditions.

Exactly.  Sometimes I think the whole reason why laws exist is to compensate for the fact that people have no willpower whatsoever.

How about all those people who want to sue McDonald's because the food makes them fat?  If a restaraunt is supposed to post nutrition information as per company policy, and they don't, you can file a proper complaint.  If you just sucked down a 900 calorie Big Mac, and then ordered an apple pie for desert, well...