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AuthorTopic: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"  (Read 19926 times)

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Offline Heiroglyph

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2016, 11:52:55 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;815261
you do have changelog right there. not much to read. think twice whom actually to reward for a honest support all these years.

At this point, I really don't care.

If they want to sell 68k software, I'll give anyone a second chance.

Maybe they will do something with it, if not, I'm no worse off than I was yesterday.

Edit: That said, that's a really weak list of version numbers.
 

Offline SnkBitten

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Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2016, 12:11:32 AM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;815257
I'm all about supporting 68k development, so I'm buying them.

I would like more details on what is in here though. IDE and SCSI changes especially. FFS version would be nice to know too.

Did the layers.library update make it in?


Same here.  I didn't expect much based on the press release so it's no big deal to me what was updated.  I just want to see some continued development in the 68k 3.x series.  

However, I'd be nice if the interest in this generated the desire for them to do a more robust update next.

Offline Heiroglyph

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2016, 12:15:46 AM »
Agreed. Voting with my $$$ on 68k.

I wonder why they sat on this since February and why now?
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2016, 01:18:45 AM »
It's a nice gesture, but...

The most important thing that could be done to polish up 3.1 would be 4GB+ support for scsi.device, FFS, and HDToolbox. Other nice things would be additional datatypes, additional BOOPSI gadgets, restoration/update of narrator.device/translator.library/speak-handler/Say, font sensitivity in Prefs editors and other system utilities, and completion of specialfx.library.

I hope we see some more development in the 3.1 line. A SuperKickstart image for 3000s with 1.4 chips would be nice, too.
 

guest11527

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Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2016, 03:49:22 AM »
Quote from: eliyahu;815258
same here. it sounds like olaf barthel was the one driving this set of updates. i hope he's able to respond to this thread to give us some more background, if there are any additional changes not mentioned in the press release, and if this is a one-off, or if hyperion is planning on making additional updates in the future.

-- eliyahu

What we have here is a straight recompile from the last 3.1 sources, so nothing else has been updated and no code from 3.9 has been integrated here. It is just a straight compile of the kickstart sources in the subversion.  Some of the fixes here are actually superfluous with 3.9. For example, the bug in the exec memory pools is typically patched over by SetPatch which replaces the rather simplistic pool algorithm in the ROM by a completely different and smarter algorithm.  Nevertheless, we have to see whether there will be a follow-up update. I still have a couple of fixes in the drawer, along with the newer shell and the newer layers.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2016, 04:22:25 AM »
That they had to shrink workbench.library only to give space for new copyright text says a lot about their priorities. Anyways, my kickstart says 3.10, the next will be 3.11 for Workgroups, haha :D
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2016, 04:25:37 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;815271
What we have here is a straight recompile from the last 3.1 sources, so nothing else has been updated and no code from 3.9 has been integrated here. It is just a straight compile of the kickstart sources in the subversion.  Some of the fixes here are actually superfluous with 3.9. For example, the bug in the exec memory pools is typically patched over by SetPatch which replaces the rather simplistic pool algorithm in the ROM by a completely different and smarter algorithm.  Nevertheless, we have to see whether there will be a follow-up update. I still have a couple of fixes in the drawer, along with the newer shell and the newer layers.

I am wondering why didnĀ“t Olaf Barthel include the already available 68k binaries that Hyperion had developed for OS4. There are a lot of components of AmigaOS 3.1 which could have been updated this way:

cpu 50.4 (that can detect  68060 and ppc processors)
iconedit 44.20 (that can edit glowicons)
playcd 50.5 (that can access cd databases online to identify discs)
ContextMenus 51.3 (a kind of non blocking configurable magicmenu clone)
Atapiismajik 52.1 (a kind of idefix97 clone)
 
And of course there are, between other things a couple of math libraries and scsi.devices that could have been pretty usefull.

So why didnt he include them if they are already compiled, tested, released, and property of Hyperion?
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2016, 04:30:35 AM »
Updated scsi.device and fastfilesystem is not only "useful", but rather crucial. Without that I don't see the point of this "update" at all, other than Hyperion going toe-to-toe with Cloanto over "who has copyrights".
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline polyp2000

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2016, 07:57:43 AM »
Quote from: kolla;815276
Updated scsi.device and fastfilesystem is not only "useful", but rather crucial. Without that I don't see the point of this "update" at all, other than Hyperion going toe-to-toe with Cloanto over "who has copyrights".


We are currently enjoying some wonderful developments on the Amiga scene, both hardware and software.  It saddens me that were not talking to each other. Vampire will ship with a whole host of features that "could" be supported in new ROMs . There are new motherboards on the horizon from Jens and Apollo Team and other options (FPGA Arcade + friends) .
We also have A-Eon taking a different direction with the PPC Boards.

Wouldnt it be great if we could unify all these developments that eliminated the worry about finding hard to find parts both custom chips  (can be implemented in FPGA) or other components (replace a1200 edge connectors with something future proof).

Will A1200 reloaded and Vampire/Alone Standalone share common i/o interfaces? - historically the likelihood is not. Its time to realise that strength is in collaboration.

Offline Pgovotsos

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2016, 08:58:17 AM »
Shouldn't Hyperion be spending their time finishing OS4 instead of things like this? And I thought it was settled that Cloanto had OS3 and Hyperion had OS4. Does anyone really want to go through another round of Hyperion getting into another pissing match? Leave this stuff alone and finish the work you should have finished a decade ago!
 

Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2016, 09:07:30 AM »
Quote from: kolla;815274
That they had to shrink workbench.library only to give space for new copyright text says a lot about their priorities.
You make this sound less weird than it actually is ;)

The copyright text had to be updated, but due to how the Kickstart ROM layout works out, this required changes in the fixed-size area of the ROM which precedes the exec coldstart code. The copyright text sits within what's called the "manufacturing pattern" area, which is quite clever because it's right at the beginning of the ROM. There is just enough room for the copyright text, too.

Now there's a problem: the new copyright text was a bit longer than the old one, and it would no longer fit into the "manufacturing pattern" area. My solution to this problem was to place it in the coldstart code, with a branch instruction skipping over the text.

Well, that was some kludgy hack work, if I say so myself, but my troubles were only beginning...

This change made the exec module a bit larger because the copyright text now used up space which was not needed before. The consequence of this being that the A1200 ROM no longer had enough space left for everything to fit into it.

This is why there is a "workbench.library" in the ROM which was rebuilt using SAS/C 6.59 rather than Lattice 'C' 5.04, which was used in the original 1993/1994 build. The SAS/C version is quite a bit smaller than the Lattice 'C' version, and everything would fit.

Quote
Anyways, my kickstart says 3.10, the next will be 3.11 for Workgroups, haha :D
I'm still very much in favour of the TeX and Metafont version number schemes. Kickstart 3.1 is closer to Pi than to e, so maybe we're going to get Kickstart/Workbench 3.14, followed by 3.141, then 3.1415, etc.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2016, 09:44:40 AM »
Quote from: eliyahu;815258
same here. it sounds like olaf barthel was the one driving this set of updates. i hope he's able to respond to this thread to give us some more background, if there are any additional changes not mentioned in the press release, and if this is a one-off, or if hyperion is planning on making additional updates in the future.

-- eliyahu

From what gunnar said in public he negotiated with Hyperion and the answer was very honest that they are not interested in 68k. So either they changed mind since that or they just want to make some easy money without investing to much efforts in it. Before I do not see anything different I would bet on the second.
 

Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2016, 10:13:59 AM »
Quote from: OlafS3;815286
From what gunnar said in public he negotiated with Hyperion and the answer was very honest that they are not interested in 68k. So either they changed mind since that or they just want to make some easy money without investing to much efforts in it. Before I do not see anything different I would bet on the second.
I do not often comment on issues such as these, because there's enough trouble either way if you say something. Not saying anything proved to be less troublesome.

So anyway... I would like to add that business negotiations do break down for any number of reasons, and the parties involved are usually very reluctant to explain in public as to what went wrong. This in itself is a tactical decision.

Sometimes negotiation tactics fail because the negotiating parties are unable to make their respective points and find common ground.

The short term tactics may have no direct relation to long term strategy.

This is "normal" in this business, in any business.

Things change, and the change is not a indication of poor performance or lack of confidence on the side of any party involved.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2016, 10:44:10 AM »
Quote from: olsen;815287
I do not often comment on issues such as these, because there's enough trouble either way if you say something. Not saying anything proved to be less troublesome.

So anyway... I would like to add that business negotiations do break down for any number of reasons, and the parties involved are usually very reluctant to explain in public as to what went wrong. This in itself is a tactical decision.

Sometimes negotiation tactics fail because the negotiating parties are unable to make their respective points and find common ground.

The short term tactics may have no direct relation to long term strategy.

This is "normal" in this business, in any business.

Things change, and the change is not a indication of poor performance or lack of confidence on the side of any party involved.

I am not sure what you are wanting to say without saying it (almost politician like)

they want to make some quick bucks in "classic market" because they see that there is movement at the moment, jump the train so to say. But if Gunnars comments are not totally wrong there is no interest in really investing in this market, for them the "classic users" obviously always were a resource for potential 4.X buyers, not a real market on its own. I doubt that this suddenly has changed. If they are really offering new software and improvements they can proof me wrong. For a start they could lift artifical ram limitations on "4.X for classics" that causes problems on UAE. By that they would show signs of customer orientation. Until that I do not believe that. Here some start to become euphoric and buy to "support development". For such a conclusion it is much too early.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 10:46:12 AM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline gregthecanuck

Re: Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2016, 11:28:58 AM »
Quote from: olsen;815287

Things change, and the change is not a indication of poor performance or lack of confidence on the side of any party involved.


Wearing my decoder ring I am choosing to interpret this as "We see there may be a decent market for OS 3.1 updates after all."

Could you elaborate on any future plans for this new 3.1 distribution? Is this a one-shot release? Is there any sort of roadmap? Are you testing the waters for demand before making that decision?

I also don't see the issue with any "conflict of interests" with Hyperion maintaining both OS3.1 and OS4.x distributions. The OS 4.x camp (which is basically A-EON) is creating OS3 software so surely they would be happy to see OS 3.1 updates.

Myself I have feet in both camps, owning both classic and PPC systems. Very happy to see updates on both.