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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: efrenmgp on September 24, 2009, 12:07:42 AM

Title: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: efrenmgp on September 24, 2009, 12:07:42 AM
Greek company Codex (http://www.codex.gr/) has intentions of bringing new PowerPC-based hardware to the market. Eventually they could even fund AmigaOS and MorphOS support for it.

More information available here (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11) and here (http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system).
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tone007 on September 24, 2009, 02:16:28 AM
Awesome, more overpriced and underpowered (though apparently less so than the SAM) hardware to segment the already small market.

I guess it's a hobby.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Pyromania on September 24, 2009, 06:16:37 AM
Greeks do it better.

:)
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: amigadave on September 24, 2009, 06:41:03 AM
Quote from: tone007;523788
Awesome, more overpriced and underpowered (though apparently less so than the SAM) hardware to segment the already small market.

I guess it's a hobby.

Having new hardware from someone willing to help fund the porting of AmigaOS4.x & MorphOS2.x to it is hardly segmenting the market further, unless you feel that we should ONLY be purchasing SAM and used MacMini computers in the near future to run those OSes on?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tonyyeb on September 24, 2009, 08:35:56 AM
Sent my e-mail :D
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tone007 on September 24, 2009, 10:45:15 AM
Quote from: amigadave;523798
Having new hardware from someone willing to help fund the porting of AmigaOS4.x & MorphOS2.x to it is hardly segmenting the market further, unless you feel that we should ONLY be purchasing SAM and used MacMini computers in the near future to run those OSes on?


If there were fewer hardware configurations to support, more development and support could be put towards a single system, more units could sell, and prices could become more reasonable (dreaming, I know.)  How about the guys that just bought a SAM thinking it was "the new Amiga?"  Then suddenly a fancier new system comes out and everyone wants to switch to that, killing the other boards' sales.  As for MacMini, that seems to not be happening at all for AmigaOS, possibly due to lack of time on developers' parts, when really it would've been the most logical choice of hardware due to availability and price.

It really is lucky this is only a hobby platform.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: DyLucke on September 24, 2009, 12:17:45 PM
Well, i don't think this is a bad idea, but the project shoud be able to handle PCIe video cards, PLUS not have the CPU embedded, being able to be replaced for a more powerful one by the user. To be able to fit a 2ghz dual G4 would provide a more than enough power for all our needs... combined with an efficient video card of course. Specially since G4 Mac Mini, has poor video capabilities and and sort of a short CPU computing power.

However i don't know if after MOS is ported to the macmini G4, the team will head over the rest of the Apple's G4 architectures... If so, i wonder if a new board having same capabilities than these discontinued systems could compete under pricing terms.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: sim085 on September 24, 2009, 12:42:22 PM
Can the PPC architecture ever become better then the x86-64 architecture? If not, then why spend money on it. I would rather spend money so that software currently working on PPC gets ported to the x86-64 architecture then the other way round.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tokyoracer on September 24, 2009, 12:46:17 PM
It's real shame there is no affordable PPC hardware old or new for Amigas. There just isn't the popularity to make them available to all at the right price (usually made to order which doesn't help matters).
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 24, 2009, 01:58:21 PM
Oh wow, Codex must have a serious death wish or cash to launder, nobody gets into PPC development these days without at least one...

Quote from: efrenmgp;523782
Greek company Codex (http://www.codex.gr/) has intentions of bringing new PowerPC-based hardware to the market. Eventually they could even fund AmigaOS and MorphOS support for it.

More information available here (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11) and here (http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system).
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: dammy on September 24, 2009, 03:22:28 PM
Lovely, more vaporware.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: SamuraiCrow on September 24, 2009, 03:58:10 PM
Quote from: sim085;523822
Can the PPC architecture ever become better then the x86-64 architecture? If not, then why spend money on it. I would rather spend money so that software currently working on PPC gets ported to the x86-64 architecture then the other way round.

x86-64 is faster but generates nearly as much heat as the PPC.  PPC doesn't have the financial backing to develop modern memory bus architectures so it will not improve enough to be better.  Also, the density of the code written for PPC is not as good as a CISC architecture and therefore doesn't make as efficient use of the cache.

Personally, I think the ARM is a better choice for new software than x86_64.  Better still, write software in LLVM so it will work on just about anything that supports the Blocks runtime.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: bloodline on September 24, 2009, 04:13:19 PM
I just want to echo SamuraiCrow's comments... anybody designing a desktop system not using an x86-64 based architecture is throwing money into a black pit of nothingness... PPC is dead dead dead... forget about it.

If I was to start a project now... I would probably use an ARM chip, the new Cortex designs are nice and fast and are really low power... but only if I was targeting something more specific than a desktop...
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: jorkany on September 24, 2009, 05:15:59 PM
I was just thinking today, "There's such a huge demand for PPC-based hardware that needs to be fulfilled".
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Golem!dk on September 24, 2009, 05:59:08 PM
Quote from: jorkany;523851
I was just thinking today, "There's such a huge demand for PPC-based hardware that needs to be fulfilled".

I hear there's medication for that now.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 24, 2009, 06:33:59 PM
I think they should concentrate on a Microsoft Bob port for AROS...

(http://www.animationplayhouse.com/green_smiley_monster.gif)(http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-1402.gif)
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tonyyeb on September 24, 2009, 07:28:31 PM
Quote from: dammy;523838
Lovely, more vaporware.


This announcement is not even over a day old and you are already making this call. Give the guy a chance... or is it that it is PPC that you don't like the idea?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 24, 2009, 09:54:32 PM
Quote from: tonyyeb;523859
This announcement is not even over a day old and you are already making this call. Give the guy a chance... or is it that it is PPC that you don't like the idea?


If this guy is genuine and checks the sales numbers for both the A1 and Sam, he will run a mile.

No one outside of serious enthusiasts is going to burn large sums of money developing pretty much from scratch a brand new PPC board for desktop use in the current economic climate, or any climate for that matter.

Perhaps positioning it as a games console for developers/hardware hackers might work, but even then you're still in serious niche market territory.

Given the amount of vaporware products that have been offered to the amiga community in the past 9 years, on balance I have to say that this is probably another iWin.

I hope I'm wrong, but this seems way too good to be true.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: recidivist on September 24, 2009, 09:54:57 PM
Despite the expertise of bloodline or any other person,they can only offer their OPINION.

If someone wants to  make a new PPC  and you don't like it,you could just ignore it.

Too many experts DEMAND all users/customers must follow their advice and opinion;similar to other totalitarians like the globull warming bs.

PPC is dead when no one uses it.Just because the people who drive/restore/show certain old cars/tractors/computers are a tiny percentage of  the market doesn't mean they  can't enjoy  the activity.

And a PPC Mac port of Amiga OS or MorphOS or AROS for Mac will instantly have a huge pool of computers to run on.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 24, 2009, 10:19:03 PM
Quote from: recidivist;523863
Despite the expertise of bloodline or any other person,they can only offer their OPINION.


That swings both ways you know.

Quote from: recidivist;523863

If someone wants to  make a new PPC  and you don't like it,you could just ignore it.


(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q285/the_leander/Picard-no-facepalm.jpg)

It's not about like or dislike.

Quote from: recidivist;523863

Too many experts DEMAND all users/customers must follow their advice and opinion;similar to other totalitarians like the globull warming bs.


Ahh, so people who have a clue about markets, hardware design etc who have commented on this are by implication totalitarian..

Cute.

Quote from: recidivist;523863

PPC is dead when no one uses it.Just because the people who drive/restore/show certain old cars/tractors/computers are a tiny percentage of  the market doesn't mean they  can't enjoy  the activity.


Did you actually bother to read what has been said here? Because nowhere in this thread has anyone said or implied such. What they have said is that PPC for the desktop is dead end. The more cynical (including myself) view this with a great amount of suspicion on the basis of previous trollings of the Amiga community by the likes of iWin, for instance.

Quote from: recidivist;523863

And a PPC Mac port of Amiga OS or MorphOS or AROS for Mac will instantly have a huge pool of computers to run on.


No, it really wont. First there is the driver issue, which thanks to the limited resources would take months to bring up to date, second, of the three OS's you've pointed to, only one (AROS) could actually use the system due to the dualcore nature of the proposed system. The other two would have to leave one core completely idle (so far as I'm aware neither MorphOS nor AOS are SMP capable).

In conclusion:

(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q285/the_leander/3192435737_6d81f4bb88.jpg)
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: recidivist on September 24, 2009, 10:42:33 PM
Look,if the guy is happy just selling a one time break-even  run of several hundred collector's edition PPC boards,then  fine for him.

  I've sent my personal view which is $500  is my limit on buying a new PPC board just to be different and run old Amiga apps.Which is why SAM has yet to grace my desk.Likewise $100 for an OS.
 There is just too much cheap,proven x86 and Mac stuff out there.
 My OPINION is most of the  x86 PCs being bought today are vastly overpowered for the tasks they are doing.
Only the gamers and video enthusiasts push their machines.You don't need  multiGHz for email,bank statements,web browsing is still limited by the ISP more than the user's cpu.But we LIKE driving Ferraris 30mph to the grocery store because they look cool!
It is only we get all huffy because others won't follow our advice that it becomes a problem.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 24, 2009, 10:59:45 PM
Yeah, if every manufacturer listed to the whim of the market where would we be?  Just because nobody will buy it is not a valid reason for not making it.  

Wow, I should be chairman of General Motors!

Quote from: recidivist;523863
Despite the expertise of bloodline or any other person,they can only offer their OPINION.

If someone wants to  make a new PPC  and you don't like it,you could just ignore it.

Too many experts DEMAND all users/customers must follow their advice and opinion;similar to other totalitarians like the globull warming bs.

PPC is dead when no one uses it.Just because the people who drive/restore/show certain old cars/tractors/computers are a tiny percentage of  the market doesn't mean they  can't enjoy  the activity.

And a PPC Mac port of Amiga OS or MorphOS or AROS for Mac will instantly have a huge pool of computers to run on.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: DyLucke on September 24, 2009, 11:04:28 PM
I don't think PPC is dead at all... IBM made a lot of money selling PPC based servers, and it still make money with that... Power 7 is around the bend, and it will catch up with Intel and AMD again. PPC's are cheaper to produce than any X86 architecture...

EVEN, XBOX360, Wii and PS3 do use PPC, and that's nothing new. I bet they will be using PPC still on their next gen consoles. So PPC is not dead at all. If you don't like "fresh air" on the PPC scene, just stick up with windoze and the X86 shit.

X86 are faster? Yeah they are, but that doesn't mean PPC's are lame or something...
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: recidivist on September 24, 2009, 11:31:52 PM
You couldn't be much worse than the current and past chairmen of GM or Chrysler.
Now the politicians are in charge and we have Generally Mandated and Fiasco!

Look,our mythical Greek hero is only testing the waters and evidently NOT expecting mass market appeal.You guys are like someone ridiculing a manufacturer bringing out a new line of buggy whips-he has a ready-made but small market in the Amish.
 
Amigans just might be the Amish of computing,except with poorer manners.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 24, 2009, 11:43:49 PM
Quote from: DyLucke;523872
I don't think PPC is dead at all...


PPC survives in telecoms situations. Even in telecoms (As I recently discovered) it is now in danger of being squeezed out by pure fpgas.

But in the desktop area it's day is long gone.

Quote from: DyLucke;523872

IBM made a lot of money selling PPC based servers, and it still make money with that... Power 7 is around the bend, and it will catch up with Intel and AMD again. PPC's are cheaper to produce than any X86 architecture...


There are niches the PPC fills nicely. Whilst PPC might be cheaper to produce then some X86 chips, the cost of developing it into a chip that can take on X86 in the desktop market and continue to do so generation after generation is an entirely different matter. The only reason PowerPC lasted as long as it did on desktop systems was because of Apple, IBM would have dropped it long before.

Power 7 may well be upon us soon, but Power is not the same as PPC and big iron is a very different market then consumer desktops.

Quote from: DyLucke;523872

EVEN, XBOX360, Wii and PS3 do use PPC, and that's nothing new.


Yes again, a niche product.

Quote from: DyLucke;523872

I bet they will be using PPC still on their next gen consoles. So PPC is not dead at all. If you don't like "fresh air" on the PPC scene, just stick up with windoze and the X86 @@@@.


Oh good gods. (oh and watch your language - kids visit this site)

Quote from: DyLucke;523872

X86 are faster? Yeah they are, but that doesn't mean PPC's are lame or something...


If you're attempting to gain a foothold into the desktop market with one, yes, yes it is.

If you have a niche, then you might get away with it. But this particular board would be an ill fit due to the architectural limitations of AOS/MorphOS/AROS.

If the person behind this is genuine I do wish him luck. But of his targeted OS's, only Haiku would make any sort of sense and given the response by the Haiku board linked to... Well look for yourself.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: BooBoo1200 on September 24, 2009, 11:53:02 PM
Quote from: DyLucke;523872
I don't think PPC is dead at all... IBM made a lot of money selling PPC based servers, and it still make money with that... Power 7 is around the bend, and it will catch up with Intel and AMD again. PPC's are cheaper to produce than any X86 architecture...

EVEN, XBOX360, Wii and PS3 do use PPC, and that's nothing new. I bet they will be using PPC still on their next gen consoles. So PPC is not dead at all. If you don't like "fresh air" on the PPC scene, just stick up with windoze and the X86 shit.

X86 are faster? Yeah they are, but that doesn't mean PPC's are lame or something...


Finaly something that makes scence not to mention cooler cpus and lower power consumption - Ill agrea the prices are to expensive commared to x86
I wish people would stop wingeing about PPC hardware, its oviously not dead the most obvious choice architecture for a console -
niche product and OS4 isnt?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Chieftain on September 25, 2009, 12:12:23 AM
Have to agree with DyLucke, the PPC is far from dead and to be honest, if anything has to be put out of its misery, it's got to be the x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). The only thing that keep it from obsolescence is the bloatware called Winblows, the x86 need to be fast in order to run Winblows at an adequate speed. I'm damn sure the PPC would be a lot faster than it is today if Microshaft had kept supporting it after WinNT 4.0.
There! Now I have whacked a hornet's nest with a stick and set the ant-hill on fire.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: TheMagicM on September 25, 2009, 01:11:49 AM
I dont think ANOTHER motherboard will do anyone any favors.  Nobody cares.


Why not put a pot of $ together for NEW SOFTWARE to be ported or written to OS 4.x and/or MorphOS?

A nice office suite that can read/write Microsoft Office documents, a great multiplayer online game, etc.  Something that shows off what we have NOW.  The hardware is there, the software is not.   Myself, I dont care for another PPC board.  I go where MorphOS goes.  Mac Mini G4? no problem, got 2.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: TheMagicM on September 25, 2009, 01:14:30 AM
Please work on funding NEW SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT for the existing 2 OS's we have (MorphOS and OS4.x)
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 02:19:10 AM
I was pointed to this forum, I didn't know there existed a separate discussion here. Anyway, as noted in:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#509376

I appreciate the noise, but there are a few points I'd like to mention:

* I am not a Mythical Hero.
* This is not vapourware, I do indeed plan to invest on this.
* MorphOS and AmigaOS were not target OSes in the beginning, Linux and Haiku were. Whatever you say, Linux is a huge market for embedded AND PowerPC, and Haiku has a great potential. I would like to think that this effort is not a one-off. That is, I hope to sell enough to fund the next batch and then the next and then an upgrade, and another, etc. Whether AmigaOS/MorphOS are supported that will depend heavily on the number of users that ask this and the dev teams involved. If only 10 people ask for AmigaOS support, then it's not going to happen.
* For those who haven't seen it yet, Haiku is going to do on the desktop what Linux failed to do (not now, in a few years).
* Variety is good. PPC is not dead, and unless something really bad happens -eg. Freescale/IBM close down- it won't really die.

In any case, I'll blog about the mails I receive so far, which are surprisingly enough, given that I posted this thing <24h ago.

So, I understand the sceptiscism, I really appreciate the feedback, I note everything and I will take into consideration all important comments.

About the last comment. I'm sorry, I don't see how investing money into software for the AmigaOS, will be successful. That's for the Amiga Software companies, and IMHO, that would be even more suicidal than investing in hardware, but that's just MHO.

Regards

Konstantinos

PS. Yes it's really me.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: TheMagicM on September 25, 2009, 02:24:05 AM
If Linux and Haiku is your primary goal.. what does your system offer vs. a Atom 330 dual core setup at about $80 ?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: recidivist on September 25, 2009, 02:29:43 AM
Anybody developing products for Amiga market is a hero to some.
It was meant to be compliment.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 02:35:10 AM
Apart from the variety factor, Atom power consumption is in fact higher than the MPC8610 (at least the earlier models, don't know about the 330 to be honest). Also since the speed is similar, and the Atom is not really the fastest Intel chip -nothing to do with C2D or Nehalems, etc- , performance-wise, the PPC chips will be very competitive. The price is another matter, but for that reason I'm looking to include something extra for added value (eg. USB 3.0 host chip). That still remains to be seen.

Anyway, as I said elsewhere, the question is not if there is a market. The market is there. The question is "is the market big enough to sustain itself?"
If I get enough interest I will go forward. If I get 90% mails to deter me from going forward with this, well chances are that I will abide and just invest my money on ARM instead.

Regards

Konstantinos
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 25, 2009, 02:43:47 AM
Haiku ppc?  Isn't that more a dream than a reality?  And Linux?  You have Yellow Dog on PPC and that's about it.  You lose wine and a lot of other pieces of software on PPC.  You gain nothing in return for the losses.  Look at Apple, sales have tripled since the Intel switchover.  

So you have no OS, no laptop support and come in at several times the price of Intel, why would anyone give you money for that?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: TheMagicM on September 25, 2009, 02:50:59 AM
Quote from: persia;523889
haiku ppc?  Isn't that more a dream than a reality?  And linux?  You have yellow dog on ppc and that's about it.  You lose wine and a lot of other pieces of software on ppc.  You gain nothing in return for the losses.  Look at apple, sales have tripled since the intel switchover.  

So you have no os, no laptop support and come in at several times the price of intel, why would anyone give you money for that?


qft
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tone007 on September 25, 2009, 03:01:30 AM
Quote from: persia;523889
And Linux?  You have Yellow Dog on PPC and that's about it.


The newest versions of Ubuntu continue to support PPC Macs, and they actually work fairly well (a whole lot less hardware to support there.)

However, Haiku is funny.  It looks like Linux looked 10+ years ago, I can't see that taking off and being wildly successful.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: gertsy on September 25, 2009, 10:56:34 AM
I think in 10 seconds both my legs will fall off......
......
.....
...
..
.

Nup still there !.


Gertsy
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 25, 2009, 11:06:00 AM
Quote from: markos;523888
Apart from the variety factor, Atom power consumption is in fact higher than the MPC8610 (at least the earlier models, don't know about the 330 to be honest). Also since the speed is similar, and the Atom is not really the fastest Intel chip -nothing to do with C2D or Nehalems, etc- , performance-wise, the PPC chips will be very competitive. The price is another matter, but for that reason I'm looking to include something extra for added value (eg. USB 3.0 host chip). That still remains to be seen.


You should be aware one of the biggest complaints about BeOS and by extension Haiku was it's lack of hardware support, now there are plans to integrate gallium3d but the question remains - does your ppc board offer enough value added to offset the large cost difference? So far as I know most of the development effort for Haiku as been aimed squarely at X86.

Certainly as a desktop offering I think you're walking a very dodgy path.

Quote from: markos;523888

Anyway, as I said elsewhere, the question is not if there is a market. The market is there. The question is "is the market big enough to sustain itself?"
If I get enough interest I will go forward. If I get 90% mails to deter me from going forward with this, well chances are that I will abide and just invest my money on ARM instead.


In all honesty I think you would be better off using ARM if you want a market that'll sustain itself, either that or perhaps you might want to look at the gp2x model and see if you couldn't produce a non portable console for hackers along the same lines. Now that I think has some real potential.

@tone007

Given that Haiku is being designed to integrate some of the next gen *nix architecture such as gallium3d, it's going to be in a position to offer hardware support on a par with linux but offer things like drag and drop application installs (you know, just like OSX and Amiga offered) as well as a number of other things that have long been things accused of holding linux back on the desktop.

Will it go anyhwere... Dunno, but I think it has a fighting chance.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: dammy on September 25, 2009, 01:41:29 PM
Quote

In all honesty I think you would be better off using ARM if you want a market that'll sustain itself, either that or perhaps you might want to look at the gp2x model and see if you couldn't produce a non portable console for hackers along the same lines. Now that I think has some real potential.

@tone007

Given that Haiku is being designed to integrate some of the next gen *nix architecture such as gallium3d, it's going to be in a position to offer hardware support on a par with linux but offer things like drag and drop application installs (you know, just like OSX and Amiga offered) as well as a number of other things that have long been things accused of holding linux back on the desktop.

Will it go anyhwere... Dunno, but I think it has a fighting chance.


ARM would be a much better option as an alternative to x86.  One big question for Hyperion and MOS crew, will there be a follow on or will they be porting to an orphan mobo?  Unless I miss my guess, this is going to be a VERY limited number production run of mobos.  Is it likely to be a follow on, or a cold dead end?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 01:48:59 PM
Quote
ARM would be a much better option as an alternative to x86. One big question for Hyperion and MOS crew, will there be a follow on or will they be porting to an orphan mobo? Unless I miss my guess, this is going to be a VERY limited number production run of mobos. Is it likely to be a follow on, or a cold dead end?

The first production run will be about 500 units. This will be used to fund the next and so on. Well, that's going to be the way, unless I manage to get an investor with huge pockets and order 10k units at once... (unlikely given the current situation).

If you think that porting AmigaOS and MorphOS to ARM would be of benefit just for a single motherboard, then I think you got this on a wrong basis. It would be the start for many nice things, eg. eventually, one might just sell AmigaOS-loaded Beagleboards, or sth like that. The potential is big. Anyway, you know, if the PowerPC thing doesn't gather enough interest, I'd just as well try my luck on ARM.

Konstantinos
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: yssing on September 25, 2009, 01:59:05 PM
I think thsi is great, and, depending on the cost, I might very much be ineterested.

To all those, who say, there is no pint, since there is X86, I wonder if you drive the same car, since, there is no point in anything else, we have Ford.
And there is no point in alternative OS, there is Windows...

Come on, there is a market for PPC based boards...

Go for it
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: jorkany on September 25, 2009, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: markos;523884
So, I understand the sceptiscism, I really appreciate the feedback, I note everything and I will take into consideration all important comments.

You might want to get in touch with Acube and ask them how it's going. Their SAM board is ostensibly for the embedded market and "just happens" to run OS4 - they've been at it for a couple years now so they have some idea of how an upstart in the PPC market can survive.

There was another company called Eyetech who did the same thing but they went out of business.

If you remove the "for profit" qualifier from your equation you'll probably be fine.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: dammy on September 25, 2009, 02:02:06 PM
Quote
This announcement is not even over a day old and you are already making this call. Give the guy a chance... or is it that it is PPC that you don't like the idea?


I think the thread title of "Market research for new PowerPC system" tells me this is indeed vaporware and it's PPC vaporware at that.  PPC sales are dead end, look at the laughable sales numbers for A1/Pegs/SAMs.  It would be cheaper for him to have OS4/MOS ported to a ready made x86 or ARM system plus whatever other OS he wants vs dipping for the PPC monster out of the tarpit.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 02:23:32 PM
@Dammy

You know it's posts like this that make me want to start this sooner than later. So far, in just one day of a post, I've received ~40 mails of interest. I've set a milestone, end of October to see if I'll manage to surpass 500. And I don't think you know what "profitable" business means. If I manage to make even 1 euro out of every board, that will be a profitable business. Stupid, but profitable. In truth I plan to have a sane profit, if only to be able to fund the next production batch. This is too much hassle to be a one-off production. And it's not that I would need it anyway, I'm doing quite ok doing enterprise and embedded applications so far.

But enough words from me. If you don't believe me, that's respected. I'd love to prove you wrong though and I can only do it with actions (building the board), and not words.

Konstantinos
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: dammy on September 25, 2009, 02:43:08 PM
Quote
The first production run will be about 500 units. This will be used to fund the next and so on. Well, that's going to be the way, unless I manage to get an investor with huge pockets and order 10k units at once... (unlikely given the current situation).

If you think that porting AmigaOS and MorphOS to ARM would be of benefit just for a single motherboard, then I think you got this on a wrong basis. It would be the start for many nice things, eg. eventually, one might just sell AmigaOS-loaded Beagleboards, or sth like that. The potential is big. Anyway, you know, if the PowerPC thing doesn't gather enough interest, I'd just as well try my luck on ARM.

Konstantinos


500 minus hold back for warranty replacement of say 50 at a bare minimum would be 450.  Don't think I would risk that much money on either porting a OS to it or actual manufacturing of it unless there was a signed contract for the rest.  Worst of all, what if there is a major flaw or bug in the chips like we have seen in the past PPC systems?  And they do have issues as we have seen posted over the years.

From what I have seen so far of what the business plan looks like, I'd run in the opposite direction as fast I could unless this is popcorn money that can be throw away with little concern.  ARM would be a better option, let Genesi do the heavy lifting on the A9 Dual core that is coming out in six months and pay for whatever ports you want from Amigaland.  I can think of two Open Source OSs in Amigaland that could use a archangel that are moving to ARM.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: dammy on September 25, 2009, 02:46:10 PM
Quote from: markos;523932
@Dammy

You know it's posts like this that make me want to start this sooner than later. So far, in just one day of a post, I've received ~40 mails of interest. I've set a milestone, end of October to see if I'll manage to surpass 500. And I don't think you know what "profitable" business means. If I manage to make even 1 euro out of every board, that will be a profitable business. Stupid, but profitable. In truth I plan to have a sane profit, if only to be able to fund the next production batch. This is too much hassle to be a one-off production. And it's not that I would need it anyway, I'm doing quite ok doing enterprise and embedded applications so far.

But enough words from me. If you don't believe me, that's respected. I'd love to prove you wrong though and I can only do it with actions (building the board), and not words.

Konstantinos


I had the exact same feeling and did go forward but in a smaller way then you did.  I had to try, even though it failed, it was a good thing for me.  Best of luck to you.  Sometimes one has to walk down that path to learn.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 03:08:01 PM
Quote
500 minus hold back for warranty replacement of say 50 at a bare minimum would be 450. Don't think I would risk that much money on either porting a OS to it or actual manufacturing of it unless there was a signed contract for the rest. Worst of all, what if there is a major flaw or bug in the chips like we have seen in the past PPC systems? And they do have issues as we have seen posted over the years.

That's a reasonable argument. Well, As far as the MPC8610 and 8640D go, they're not really "new" chips, and most bugs have been fixed. But it does hold as an argument with the P1022, which is not even out yet (Q3/Q4 2010). Well, I can't say much in this case. I hope the producer does not withhold any hidden info -like the cache coherency in the 5121e chip) and the prototypes are hopefully to find any error seen in the chips early enough -yes, there will be prototypes :)
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: kolla on September 25, 2009, 03:39:33 PM
Maybe those who dont give a damn about PowerPC could just STFU?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: dammy on September 25, 2009, 04:11:47 PM
Quote from: kolla;523940
Maybe those who dont give a damn about PowerPC could just STFU?


I didn't see this thread flagged as a PPC fanboy only thread.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 25, 2009, 04:32:08 PM
I'd consider a PPC board if it ran AMigaOS or Morphos and if it were the same price as a comparable Intel board.  The first is possible, the second is not.  I'm not at the stage of my life where I cant throw a thousand bucks at a hundred dollar board...
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 04:41:47 PM
@persia

I don't think that's going to happen, I'm sorry. The scales are just not the same. Even if I wanted to I couldn't sell a PowerPC board at the same price levels as eg. an Asus motherboard -and neither could anyone except Freescale and IBM themselves who will not do that. Go over at mouser.com for example or some other parts supplier and check the prices of the PowerPC cpus there. It's just prohibitive, and there are only a few options to choose from to build a decent board at prices affordable by most people and not just Telcos/Defense companies.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: kolla on September 25, 2009, 04:58:06 PM
Quote from: dammy;523953
I didn't see this thread flagged as a PPC fanboy only thread.


Maybe you didnt read the title for this thread? :hammer:
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: kolla on September 25, 2009, 05:12:59 PM
Quote from: persia;523955
I'd consider a PPC board if it ran AMigaOS or Morphos and if it were the same price as a comparable Intel board.  The first is possible, the second is not. I'm not at the stage of my life where I cant throw a thousand bucks at a hundred dollar board...

And because you cant afford it, you have to post the same rant over and over again? What are you trying to accomplish? Magical summoning of MorphOS for x86? Or drop dead cheap PowerPC mobos?

(Btw, you can get the latter by buying for example a Bubba Two (google it) and adding a mini-PCI graphics card, for example there's one with ATI Rage XL. Presto... an el cheapo "desktop" PowerPC based system (333MHz e300c3), with 256MB RAM, gigEther, SATA, fast USB etc.)
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 25, 2009, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: kolla;523957
Maybe you didnt read the title for this thread? :hammer:


Don't worry - it's been added to the tags now so that no one will be in any doubt!
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Golem!dk on September 25, 2009, 06:22:25 PM
Quote from: the_leander;523864

of the three OS's you've pointed to, only one (AROS) could actually use the system due to the dualcore nature of the proposed system. The other two would have to leave one core completely idle (so far as I'm aware neither MorphOS nor AOS are SMP capable).

You mean AROS running hosted on one core? or did someone add support SMP recently?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: yakumo9275 on September 25, 2009, 06:46:59 PM
@markos, will your design work constitute more than the existing reference design? or are you basically going to re-fab the reference design from freescale and sell it on?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 25, 2009, 07:07:46 PM
Quote from: Golem!dk;523968
You mean AROS running hosted on one core?


Yes. Sorry I wasn't clearer. :)

 
Quote from: Golem!dk;523968
or did someone add support SMP recently?


I figured that'd be more icaros territory though Dammy might be able to tell you one way or t'other.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 07:20:09 PM
Which reference design? MPC8610's developer platform? MPC8640D? P1022? No, it's going to be a from-scratch design -of course following the guidelines set by the reference design and specs. Refabricating a reference design is not the cheapest solution, as to many components are used, which are not needed by the end user.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Golem!dk on September 25, 2009, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: the_leander;523972
Yes. Sorry I wasn't clearer. :)

I figured that'd be more icaros territory though Dammy might be able to tell you one way or t'other.

Ok, icaros is still aros, or did you mean to write anubis?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 25, 2009, 07:50:42 PM
It's a very small market, the universe of Amiga users probably wouldn't fill a large hotel ballroom, a PPC Mac Mini port of Amiga OS 4 and Morphos would fill any conceivable demand at a price that you couldn't match. In away that's the dilemma that Hyperion and  the Morphos Team face, developing a PPC MacMini port would put the OS back in the affordable range at the cost of essentially killing all other alternatives.

Would I try a PPC Mac Mini version of Morphos or AmigaOS 4?  In a heartbeat....

(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii48/littlepunkraven/Death/Reaper.gif)
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 08:21:42 PM
Many of you seem to fail to understand what I'm asking. This is not about a new PowerPC Amiga or a new system running MorphOS. This is about a new and more modern PowerPC platform, which will *primarily* run Linux -and probably Haiku- and which IF there is enough demand, it will support your preferred OSes (AmigaOS/MorphOS). Again. I'm NOT building a new Amiga. The platform will most likely happen. If you want support for it, you might as well ask and if there are enough requests, I will try to follow that route. If only 20 of you ask now, then 99% the board will not support anything than Linux/Haiku. I hope this has been made more clear now.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 25, 2009, 08:59:29 PM
Quote from: Golem!dk;523977
Ok, icaros is still aros, or did you mean to write anubis?


Probably. Tbh I'm guilty of not really following AROS or icaros or anubis or thoros or whatever os that's come out of it...
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 25, 2009, 09:06:05 PM
Quote from: markos;523980
This is about a new and more modern PowerPC platform, which will *primarily* run Linux -and probably Haiku- and which IF there is enough demand, it will support your preferred OSes (AmigaOS/MorphOS).


I get this, truly. But again I think you'd be better off building a piece of hardware for a small niche such as a games console or set top box. A ppc desktop just doesn't make much sense these days.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 09:49:05 PM
@the_leander:

A games console is much more than just hardware, it's an complete SDK, it's lots of cash to give out to developers and publishers to develop games platform. It costs way much more than just building a board. And when there are already XBOX 360, PS3, and Wii, what chances does a small company have to compete? I haven't seen a niche games console so far.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 25, 2009, 09:52:01 PM
Quote from: markos;523991
@the_leander:

A games console is much more than just hardware, it's an complete SDK, it's lots of cash to give out to developers and publishers to develop games platform. It costs way much more than just building a board. And when there are already XBOX 360, PS3, and Wii, what chances does a small company have to compete? I haven't seen a niche games console so far.


Now you have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2X).

All achieved with Linux no less.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 25, 2009, 10:17:09 PM
Nice. Interesting, thanks for the link. I think a PPC-based one would be much more expensive though and not directly competitive, but it makes room for new ideas. Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: the_leander on September 25, 2009, 10:43:52 PM
Quote from: markos;523995
Nice. Interesting, thanks for the link. I think a PPC-based one would be much more expensive though and not directly competitive, but it makes room for new ideas. Thanks a lot.


No worries. The GPx2 is a handheld so a more traditional console wouldn't as you say be directly competitive. But having seen that and other similar (but much more modest (http://www.xgamestation.com/)) projects aimed at allowing developers to cut their teeth on console hardware without the usual restrictions, there does appear to be an opening for such a device in the class that your hardware spec could provide.

Either way, good luck with your efforts!

(One thing though - if you do go down this road, don't do what Andre Lamothe did and offer up a given spec, build a following, then days before the release offer up a product with a fraction of what you were originally offering - it upsets the customer base and almost destroyed his project).
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tone007 on September 26, 2009, 12:18:22 PM
Quote from: markos;523995
I think a PPC-based one would be much more expensive though and not directly competitive


This is a good quote, and applies to anything, including a workstation.

Why the heck would someone pay crazy money for a board that runs an OS (Linux, Haiku)  that'll run better (performance and support-wise) on hardware a fraction of the cost?

At least with AmigaOS and its kind the hardware choices are limited so people are more likely to consider an overpriced board, but as has been mentioned before, the market is small.

That said, I'm sure there are probably at least 500 people in the world with money they'd blow on such an item if for nothing more than to kill some time.  It might just take a couple years to find them all.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 26, 2009, 01:24:07 PM
@tone007

Well, I think you're misunderstand the target group. I'm not after people who need the fastest gaming rig, nor professionals who need the absolute 3d power to do their renders or their DTP. I'm not after the Core 2 Duo or Core i7 CPUs, nor the Power7 market, I'm after people who like different things, the same group of geeks who prefer to get a custom DIY helicopter model kit, even though it's not top spec, instead of buying the fastest helicopter model available -which is also cheaper than the one you'll be building. Also, I'm targeting people who really want a power efficient CPU. ARM is great on the power efficiency, but just won't hold a candle to one of the CPUs I mentioned (at least not yet). Atom is more or less at the same performance ratio -I believe it should perform quite less than the MPC8610, let's not even compare it to the MPC8640D, and it's power usage has been ridiculed since it's release. ION saves the situation slightly, but that's a GPU/Chipset, and it has nothing to do with the CPU. I'm pretty sure a MPC8610+radeon mobile gpu could give as much performance with as similar power usage to the Atom+ION. Yes the price is higher, but price isn't everything.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Hammer on September 26, 2009, 02:10:18 PM
Quote from: DyLucke;523872

I don't think PPC is dead at all... IBM made a lot of money selling PPC based servers, and it still make money with that... Power 7 is around the bend, and it will catch up with Intel and AMD again. PPC's are cheaper to produce than any X86 architecture...
...

X86 has "economic of scale" and a hostile competitive environment e.g. AMD vs Intel.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Hammer on September 26, 2009, 02:20:52 PM
Quote from: Chieftain;523877
Have to agree with DyLucke, the PPC is far from dead and to be honest, if anything has to be put out of its misery, it's got to be the x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). The only thing that keep it from obsolescence is the bloatware called Winblows, the x86 need to be fast in order to run Winblows at an adequate speed. I'm damn sure the PPC would be a lot faster than it is today if Microshaft had kept supporting it after WinNT 4.0.
There! Now I have whacked a hornet's nest with a stick and set the ant-hill on fire.

Replace Windows NT with MacOS 9/X. Ex-DEC engineers at AMD and Intel would still beat IBM and Motorola/Freescale. PowerPC is competing against reincarnated DEC Alpha.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 26, 2009, 02:59:00 PM
Why would a geek bother with a higher priced board that limits them to poorly supported versions of a handful of OSs?  Haiku runs beautifully on intel equipment which I could source for a thousand places in Australia. Plus I have the choice of Icarios, several hundred Linux distros with the ability to run Windows programs in Wine.

I custom built computers all the time, why would I bother with a board that offers price performance ratios 5 to 10 times worse than Intel/AMD?  In the end it just choosing the parts and putting them together so why would I be more excited about something that after I build it has far fewer choices of OS?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 26, 2009, 03:36:06 PM
@persia

Fine, no one is forcing you to buy it, do I at least have your permission of trying to make myself look ridiculous by failing to sell PowerPC boards? Btw, geeks bother all the time for old fashined, overpriced hardware, I once collected old hardware like SGI O2s, PPC macs, HP/PA workstations, etc. I actually paid MUCH more than the 500€ you find hard to justify for this board. Not referring specifically to you, you're in an Amiga forum after all, but I feel sorry for those people whose computer experience consists solely of a BIOS and a Windows screen. There are many geeks willing to try something different. Just as in the car world, there are many people willing to spend lots of money into a old Jaguar, where obviously a newer Audi would be a much better way to spend their money.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: recidivist on September 26, 2009, 05:32:01 PM
I am beginning to wonder about those people who  feel the need to ridicule anyone who is not in lockstep with their choice of the most common  computer/car/breakfast cereal;do they feel somehow threatened?

If you  are pretty sure of  at least  getting your money back then I hope these boards get made;and  they will be collectors items for the technophiles of the world.People buy limited edition  firearms at 10 times the price of ordinary ones with no intention of ever shooting it.People buy millions of dollars of  expensive holiday dioramas ,etc.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 26, 2009, 09:21:25 PM
What is it that prevents OS4 from loading on any PPC board?  Intel and Apple with their tens of thousands of employees couldn't stop OS X from loading on a generic board, how come a company with a total number of employees you could count on your toes  can keep OS4 from loading on any PPC board?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 26, 2009, 09:50:58 PM
I guess there is no interest/technical expertise that is needed. In the case of MacOS X there are literally hundreds of thousands of users/developers that run it on plain x86 hardware. How many Amiga users/developers know AmigaOS AND ppc hardware so well AND have so much time in their hands to do that? Sure it's possible, but what's the point?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: kolla on September 27, 2009, 12:50:22 PM
Quote from: the_leander;523963
Don't worry - it's been added to the tags now so that no one will be in any doubt!

It's not working! :hammer:
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 28, 2009, 02:22:47 PM
Update:

http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=62
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 28, 2009, 03:29:46 PM
It's too bad PearPC died, had development continued we could have run Amiga OS 4 on standard affordable equipment.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tonyyeb on September 28, 2009, 03:31:37 PM
Quote from: persia;524168
It's too bad PearPC died, had development continued we could have run Amiga OS 4 on standard affordable equipment.

Indeed! I wish PearPC was still being developed. This would open up a lot of software to lots of cheap hardware and existing users.

Who wants to spend $600+ on a system without even trying it out then to find it is limited as to what can be run on it.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on September 28, 2009, 03:49:45 PM
Quote from: tonyyeb;524170
Who wants to spend $600+ on a system without even trying it out then to find it is limited as to what can be run on it.

I don't remember myseflf asking for preorders. When it's out, I'll send a few boards to reviewers, you can make your decision afterwards.

@tonyyeb:
EDIT: I wrote by mistake "paying without trying". No, I guess I didn't want to write that. But I will offer a full refund -minus shipping costs of course- to anyone that feels the board doesn't do what he wants. But it *is* too early for this talk.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tonyyeb on September 28, 2009, 03:50:54 PM
Quote from: markos;524171
I don't remember myseflf asking for preorders or paying without trying. When it's out, I'll send a few boards to reviewers, you can make your decision afterwards.


Can I try before I buy?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: zylesea on September 28, 2009, 07:54:48 PM
@ persia
First you complain aboit the sense of a ppc board and then you complaina bout the lack of a ppc  emulator for generic x86 pcs to run OS4 or MorphOS on. Somehow kind of schizophenic...
Listen: MorphOS and AOS4 are ppc only due to endian incompatibility on x86. Thus we are bound to ppc (okay, ARM offer also big endian). Like it or dislike it, but if you wnat to run said OSes you need a ppc board. Therefor it makes  some pretty sense to have ppc hardware available. And c'mon, about 500 EUR for a hobbysytem that has convenient computing power for this niche OSes isn't really an issue i'd say. You probably buy an Amigaish system once in 5 yrs (my Pegasos is from 2002, 7 years old now), that's less than 10EUR per month.
And my Peg does things my Mac or PC don't do and vice versa. All systems have their place and not every place needs maximum power. And one thing is for sure: neither my Mac, nor my PC, nor my netbook provide the fun my Peg actually does.
And btw.: the 8610 has some nice power, not as an i7, but don't underestimate it.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on September 28, 2009, 10:31:48 PM
I probably will never try OS4 or Morphos becuase of the rediculous pricing of PPC boards.  They're both unknowns,  if they ran on affordable or standard hardware I'd be more inclined to try them.  Realistically in 2009 you shouldn't have to buy hardware to try something anyway, Haiku runs beatifully in Fusion on my Mac.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: tonyyeb on September 29, 2009, 08:17:03 AM
Quote from: persia;524200
I probably will never try OS4 or Morphos becuase of the rediculous pricing of PPC boards.  They're both unknowns,  if they ran on affordable or standard hardware I'd be more inclined to try them.  Realistically in 2009 you shouldn't have to buy hardware to try something anyway, Haiku runs beatifully in Fusion on my Mac.


Totally agree. Computers are a bit of a hobby for me whilst software development is my job. I don't spend a lot on computers and when I do they last me a fair bit of time. A PPC board would be nice to 'play' with but I don't think I can afford to be playing with something.

If people want PPC stuff to be taken seriously again then it needs to be mainstream with mainstream pricing. Otherwise it will be a 500 run of that board and a 1000 run of that board making it harder for developers to support varying platforms.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on October 02, 2009, 07:44:29 PM
More updates here:

http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=64
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: pault1 on October 07, 2009, 09:51:24 PM
Quote from: recidivist;523873
....
 
Amigans just might be the Amish of computing, except with poorer manners.


EXCELLENT!  This is the quote of the quarter at least.  That ranks right up there with,
"Amiga is like a Zombie," said one poster in response. "Commodore killed it, Escom killed it ... and Gateway killed it. Still, it shambles on." (Usenet posting)  To which I might add, "...and Amiga Inc. is standing on its chest."
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: sgrddy on November 09, 2009, 09:46:52 PM
How about the Cell?  Surely, especially the newer ones, must be fast enough to handle most desktop work.

http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/24180.wss

The Cell excels are certain tasks.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: markos on November 11, 2009, 10:25:59 AM
Final results about the market research here:

http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=100

Quote from the blog -the interesting part-:

Quote
... Actually, I just thought of an idea, there is another way that we might build a nice ppc board, but I think it will find even less interest: open-source hardware, donation based. Say, we do a bounty -or what even its legal term is- and each of us, donates an amount, until we reach the desirable amount. If we could get 500 people to donate 100e each -or more in some cases- we might reach the goal to design the board. Since the board design would be open, anyone could then produce it. If the goal is not reached in a specific amount of time, everyone gets their money back -or we leave it open until the money is raised. So, what say you all? It's the last thing that can be done I think. So, if you are really interested in the idea, please say so, if enough people second this, I'm sure something could be arranged.

COMMENT: The nice thing with that approach, is that the end design will be open. If the amount of people does not reach critical mass for a mass production -eg. 500- there might still be a few (100 or even less) people that may go for a small production scale and get the board of their dreams, albeit a bit more expensive! And if I would decide to drop out of the project for whatever reason, the design would be open for anyone to continue development on it. Actually, I wonder why didn't I think of that scheme before...
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Amiga_Nut on November 15, 2009, 05:00:52 AM
Quote from: DyLucke;523872
I don't think PPC is dead at all... IBM made a lot of money selling PPC based servers, and it still make money with that... Power 7 is around the bend, and it will catch up with Intel and AMD again. PPC's are cheaper to produce than any X86 architecture...

EVEN, XBOX360, Wii and PS3 do use PPC, and that's nothing new. I bet they will be using PPC still on their next gen consoles. So PPC is not dead at all. If you don't like "fresh air" on the PPC scene, just stick up with windoze and the X86 shit.


PS3 uses the Cell processor which is highly unsuitable for an OS, it's really not going to excel in  that environment. The 360s CPU is a good choice though,  as obviously there is a huge volume being produced...however when the 360 is canned in 2010/11 what then? Back to expensive CPU costs for us all.

End of the day it would be nice to have something else to run OS4 on, but even then it's not a real Amiga with custom chips with ladies names lol.

One thing to remember is...Windows <> x86 ....the fact Windows runs on 95% of x86 machines AND IS A PoS is not the fault of x86. A top end i7 based PC is a very powerful piece of technology....until you put Vista or worse still that amateur hour looking Win7 crap on there that is...THEN it becomes a PoS holistically speaking ;)

PS There is nothing stopping Amiga Inc porting OS4 to x86....apart from their own  lack of vision and incompetence that is haha
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: persia on November 15, 2009, 02:35:22 PM
Yes, X86 is a logical choice based on available hardware.  But AmigaOS is a closed source OS with a handful of people working on it, the market is small, it's not a general interest OS.  There's no audience of millions waiting for the Amiga line, there might have been in 1995, but they've long since left the station.  AROS and Anubis have taught us that.

It 's us and a handful of retro enthusiasts that might join us.  That means they for the most part are willing to pay a premium.  So why bother porting to X86?
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: sgrddy on November 15, 2009, 07:56:44 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;529640
PS3 uses the Cell processor which is highly unsuitable for an OS, it's really not going to excel in  that environment.

Certainly even the older Cell is much faster than 1Ghz PPC chips.
Title: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Post by: Amiga_Nut on November 17, 2009, 04:35:22 AM
Quote from: sgrddy;529720
Certainly even the older Cell is much faster than 1Ghz PPC chips.


It's not a case of performance, the SPEs in the CELL are nowhere near as feature rich as the cores in multicore PPC or x86  CPUs. It's a very unsuitable CPU for running a media rich OS that you would want today. Very inflexible in that environment, great for games coding though if you know what you are doing.