Opinion Article : Amiga DE a Good Idea, Poor Execution

[Ohno]

Realtime work just means the code can run continuously without missing input.

Well.. actually realtime means you'll get a response within an absolutely guarantied amount of time. That time could just as well be half a day. So theoretically realtime doesn't even have to be fast.

And I think it's sad to see an article appear which is so flawed it's obvious the writer only wants to take a stab at Amiga Inc.

Amiga-Anywhere is running on multiple devices. Several PDA's and some phones already. There are some games out there which are a lot of fun to play and more are coming.

There is indeed no killer-app, but that was not really the idea behind it. We don't need to attract people to another platform, we want people to be able to play content on whatever platform they would like. The fact that Amiga-Anywhere is running underneath shouldn't even be noticable in the end.

Regards,

Onno

[Ohno]

I can't imagine programming anything in assembler, anymore, except for minor optimizations. It takes too long,[...]

While I would normally agree with you, I think the situation for VP-assembly is a bit different. This is a macro-assembler with a lot of macro's provided by intent already. Those macro's allow for things like for-next loops, if-then-else, using 'normal' math (like (1+4)*5) instead of having to do it with add's and mulu's (which you _can_ still do btw). On top of that it supports oo-programming. So in the end it is a lot like C++ programming. Sure when you get started it takes you a while to build up a library of reusable objects, but that's true for any new oo-language.

Regards,

Onno

[DaveP]

.and if it had not left so much up to the OS vendors to fill in might have achieved the goal of running virtually unchanged code just recompiled for the target.

That was never the goal of C. The goal of ANSI-C perhaps but then "virtually unchanged" would have been a totally unrealistic target. Why do you think POSIX stepped up to the fore and all these new abstractions libraries ( e.g. SDL )?

You can't use it as a mallet to beat the OS vendors around with. Sure, there were different parlances of C in the early days but ANSI C "solved" that.

I don't see what the rest of the problem you see with OS vendors is. They write different OSes, spice is the variety of life, just like you have different APIs between two otherwise similar products you have different APIs and SPIs into operating systems. Some operating systems even behave differently. The power of programming is, that the language gives you the power to write the logic, and the API gives you the power to use that logic to drive a particular environment.

I get concerned when I see the "write once, run everywhere" speeches come out because what you end up with is code that is totally innapropriate for its target and plays to environment weaknesses and not strengths more often than not.

PS, a clue for you about Java. Not all applications are front end user interfaces. Java is big time in the commercial data/transaction/middleware/application arena.  just because you don't see JavaBustAMove22 doesn't make Java unpopular.

PPS your last sentence before your name ruins an otherwise OK article. I realise that you are beating the blue drum around here since ages ( despite your PS disclaimer - Ill believe it when I see the reciepts in my hand ) but if you are going to highlight negative aspects of the Amiga Inc product line you are going to need to be a tadge more subtle than that to not have peoples reading of your article tinged with a bit of cynicism.

If this was say Mike Bouma and he had put that in at the
bottom expect those praising you in here to be slamming you.

Strange how life works eh?


 :-D

[YttriumOx]

THEONE wrote:
I’ll buy OS 4 and the Amiga One when they are available together, I will continue to support Amiga by purchasing whatever they produce. I’m still very loyal to the Amiga, just frustrated by Amiga Inc.

I disagree with, but can understand your position.  As far as OS4 on AmigaOne goes, I recommend you direct any frustrations elsewhere however as Amiga Inc would release it tomorrow if they could.  The fact is that is not complete yet, and it's not Amiga Inc that's sitting at the keyboards coding.
Myself, I've got my AmigaOne and am happy to use Linux on it until the release of OS4.  Patience is a virtue.

see as how i did post and give Bill the proof that AmgiaOne is my trademark name I know you will be waiting a long time.

Say what?  I guess I missed that...  When and where did you trademark the name "AmigaOne" and can you point me to a web reference that proves this?

ther is no reason to sue as ther will be no money after Bill buck, and the other companies including microsoft ,yep thats right microsoft,get thru suing them.

And why are Microsoft going to sue them?  Please try and back up statements with fact, or at the very least, a bit of logical reasoning rather than straight out statements that make no sense.

Oh by the way both of the things suck one a dos shell on top of a shell the other a older pc dam sucks .

And here you've completely lost me... "both of the things"?  What things?  I can't fit anything from this thread into the descriptions you've given.

Regards,
Ben de Waal.

[amimonkey]

@People slagging off AmigaDE

Have you actually USED AmigaDE or not?

Ian

[JetRacer]

Waccoon: Your post is 100% misenterpretations. You didn't get one thing strait. Take a break will ya.

(edit)

I better straiten things out for you.

I never suggested that anyone should write applications in assembler. What I did wrote was that assembler (implied: optimizations) is a
necessity to get high (read: adequate) performance out of virtually any highlevel
language. That applies to games and demos, aswell
as kernels and applications. X86 and PPC.
Especially if we talk C language.

About realtime performance. You got more of a point than you know. To time something so it occurs exactly five seconds later you need high performance to not miss the event alltogether. C is lousy for that, unless it relys on an assembler written/optimized timing routine. But that's just one example. C does not bring performance by any defenition.

I never wrote that Tao owns Amiga. Nor anything like it. Btw, can you imagine Microsoft licensing the kernel from third party..? Nor do I, and that was my concern. Such a thing would simply be irresponsible, unless we're talking non-closed source like Linux (as in kernel), which isn't the case here. And that's about the only thing I 've got against AmigaDE.

(/edit)

[samdu]

The concept of the DE is an incredibly compelling one - and I'm not even a programmer. From a purely business standpoint (for developers), it could be the motherlode. COULD be. It has a ways to go. As Redrumloa so accurately pointed out, Amiga needs to do something with it. I can't imagine going to a developer and telling them that they could code one time and not have to worry about porting and not get at least initial interest. Their code will run everywhere. This was the promise of Java, but due to some technical issues and a not insignicant, intentional road block from Microsoft, it has never been allowed to achieve its lofty goals.

As to what this really has to do with the Amiga (the real Amiga) on the surface, not much. By itself, almost nothing. HOWEVER - If AI plays this right (and I'm by no means confident that they can do this the way it needs to be done, but I'm still willing to give them a chance (ain't I generous)), it could mean the true reemergence of our beloved platform and in the process, force Microsoft into the unenviable position that they so ruthlessly put IBM in in the 80's. You may be scratching your head, but bare with me.

If AI is able to convince some of the bigger players to code to the DE (they could hang the Windows/Mac/Linux compatibility carrot coupled with less workforce in front of them - again, it'll take some doing), over time, they could have quite a library of mainstream apps running on the DE. Doesn't do our Amiga much good now. On the other hand, when OS5 rolls out with the DE integrated, all of a sudden all of those apps that the other "platforms" have been enjoying are instantly Amiga compatible. I put platform in quotes in that last sentence for a good reason. If this comes off like it could, the current concept of a platform will be rendered moot. When Microsoft licensed DOS to Compaq in the 80's, they instantly rendered the x86 architecture a commodity. It no longer mattered where you got your hardware, it would run DOS (and later Windows). IBM went from sitting on a monopoly in the x86 market to being just another x86 vendor among many. If this goes like it could, it will no longer matter what OS you're running, the real important thing - the applications - will finally take center stage. Microsoft will simply be another OS vendor among many. Windows - all OSes - will have become commoditized. This can only be a good thing for Linux, Apple, Amiga, and the consumer. The factors taken into account when deciding on an Operating System will now be how does the OS fit the way you compute. Whatever you feel comfortable with, you know that your favorite applications will run there. Given this scenario, I become aware of two things. First, playing ball with Microsoft could end up being a very dangerous choice (like it's not usually). If and when things start to fall into place, with Amiga being so close to MS, the boys in Redmond will have early warnings that their obscene business model is in jeopardy. AI should tread VERY carefully around the MS collective. Second, the company that AI should be leaning on the hardest to push their agenda is... IBM. IBM would like nothing more than to return the favor that Microsoft inflicted on them. They would have to do so very quietly, again, to avoid tipping off Redmond. Getting DB2 and Notes running on the DE would be a major coup. Another aspect that should be appealing to IBM is that the success of the DE could enhance sales of AIX. Again, it's the applications, stupid.

So, while the DE doesn't look like much more than a wasteful diversion at the moment, if one is able to look farther down the line and at a big enough picture, the DE could very well be an absolute godsend to our favorite platform and to the computing world in general.

-----------------------------------------

Quick note on the Windows Kernel thing. Isn't the Kernel in NT/2K/XP actually based on the MACH Kernel?

[JetRacer]

As some people think C is the only real language for programming I'd like to point out a few things.

Ansi C was outaged a very long time ago. It get's very evident when looking at it's (lack of) support. It's suitable for command line stuff and crude graphics. Apart from that, you need to add to the language by using custom functions. 99.9% of what we see in modern OS's is unsupported. Try porting something from one OS to another and you'll have the same situation that assembler programmers was in in the early days, forcing the creation of the C language in the first place.

Object orientation (C++) was slapped onto C in a way that is simply outrageus. The syntax looks like it was made by a hacker as a pre-alpha for his own personal use, three in the morning still going strong after 24 strait hours of coding. It's simply an unbelievably crappy implementation by any meashure.

There are no viable alternatives yet, but it's important to know that C/C++ has no real future
and lives on borrowed time.

[Hattig]

C- is very fast, relatively easy to learn, but relies heavy on the OS, but has the best proven track record and is stable.

... and applications developed using it are prone to bugs simply because of the language, compared to Java.

Java - Much easier to learn, but heavy overhead, slow as hell, and I don't see the mass of applications using it yet.

Yet another person basing their opinion of Java on some old early release of the language, or the Microsoft JVM.  Current Java releases from Sun, IBM, etc, are pretty damned fast compared to the older releases, and compare well to C++, especially when the extra stuff that the JVM is doing like garbage collection, etc is taken into consideration.

Problems with Java are Swing - the interface to bring nightmares to people, and some other old classes such as the old I/O system, etc.

Many of the latest cell phones run J2ME, which of course will not have problems with Swing as that isn't part of J2ME This means a steady supply of games and other applications, because Java is simple.

----

Now regarding AmigaDE / Amiga Anywhere - I agree with the story - there is nothing happening on the platform as far as outsiders can see. IT LOOKS DEAD. It is an odd platform that requires NDAs and stuff to be signed to develop for, - that really is going to make the platform popular ... NOT.  Amiga Inc need to put a lot more effort into publicising this product, and getting more applications and games developed.

[System]

The problem here -- and I cannot believe that I of all people are defending Amiga Inc on this one -- is yet another mistake in the core business plan of Amiga Inc.  They bit off on, and based their entire plan around Tao's Intent product being able to be adapted to meet Amiga Inc's needs.  

The problem is, as Bill McEwen admitted to me about a year ago (the last time we spoke), Tao's Intent was "not nearly anything resembling the level of completeness or usability that Tao had presented to us in the beginning".   So in essence, Amiga Inc irrevokably backed the wrong product and doesn't have any alternatives at this point but to write what they can -- with no money -- to complete the Tao product to match their needs.

Somewhere along the lines, and this is pure speculation on my part, I'm thinking a rift most likely occurred between Amiga Inc and Tao.  Probably at the point where AI's money ran out.  This might account for why Tao currently has a finished product which is shipping on a few devices while Amiga DE/AA has (for all intents and real purposes) not seen the light of day except as a game pack.

[bhoggett]

@JetRacer

I must congratulate you for writing the biggest pile of #?@$ I've read in a long time.

Your points have everything to do with the custom and proprietary subsystems that have been the norm on most platforms, and absolutely nothing to do with the language employed to access them.

@all

AmigaDE is dead. It looks dead. It smells dead. It's a Norwegian Blue.

This is not to say the original concept was a bad one - it wasn't - or that TAO's intent is dead - it isn't.

Disclaimer: Yes, I realise there will be people saying "how would you know? You haven't seen the confidential info regarding development", and this is true. Then again, those who do have access have signed NDAs which prevent them saying how little is actually happening. Does anyone really believe that AmigaDE development is continuing at a reasonable pace, or that you can fund and resource development on fresh air?

[bhoggett]

@Wayne

Actually, it was very clear early on that Amiga Inc. were making completely differing claims with regard to TAO's product than TAO themselves were.  I remember Francis Charig having to intervene quite early in the story to basically correct the Amiga Inc. claim that they would support 'feature X'[1] by basically saying "we don't support 'feature X' and have no plans to do so in the future".

I think it's quite clear that Bill's claim that TAO somehow misled them is a smokescreen for the fact that Amiga Inc. only understood half of what they were told, so they went ahead and made the other half up themselves. The "rift" with TAO probably started right there, long before AI ran out of funds.

[1] - 'feature X' was memory protection IIRC

[downix]

@samdu

That's the arguement given for every time someone comes up with a
"write once, run everywhere" idea.  The thing hasn't flown in the 30+
years of people pushing for it.

As for Windows NT/2k/XP kernel, it's actually based on OS/2's kernel.
If I recall, there was an article that showed an almost 80%
compatability between NT 3.1's kernel and OS/2's 2.5 kernel.

[downix]

Hey Wayne, seen Tao's latest partner?

Midway games

Tao's Intent is at the core of Defender 2003.

[Ohno]

@bhoggett

I personally considder intent to be a platform just like I considder a PC and an Amiga or Mac to be a platform.
Each of these platforms don't support memory protection, but some OS's on some of these platforms _do_ support memory protection.
Tao doesn't HAVE to support memory protection for it to become a reality. Amiga Inc. could still build their own OS on top of this virtual machine, which does support memory protection. Not that I think they are... but they COULD


@Wayne

This might account for why Tao currently has a finished product which is shipping on a few devices while Amiga DE/AA has (for all intents and real purposes) not seen the light of day except as a game pack.

Well.. AA going to be available on most M$-devices, which account for a LOT of devices. If you look at this page you might notice Amiga-Anywhere being named as a game-engine for smartphone.


Regards,

Onno

[toRus]

Mercy !!! Now Java is a failure ?

Java has been one of the success stories in history of modern computing together with Linux.