Request about OS Development

[ferrellsl]

AROS is "AmigaOS" on x86_64, and it is a really fun project, I have learnt so much from it and a really recommend trying it out!

Thomas is correct though, from an architectural pint of view the design goals of AmigaOS are far removed from what is needed in an operating system in 2017.

As for adding an inbuilt 68k emulator to a x86_64, I tried it, and hit two problems: endianess (which was quite easy, but very time consuming to solve) and address space size. Unfortunately as soon as the OS and the app operate in different size address spaces they can no longer share data structures, which is a a key architectural design feature of AmigaOS (other operating systems are far more strict about control of the address space).

You can read my issues here: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72059

Who really cares about an inbuilt, seamless emulator for 68K apps on x86_64 AROS?  Are the folks who use x86_64 AROS really using 68K software?  That's a rhetorical question and the answer is no.  They're using AROS native apps.  So what's wrong with using the non-seamless UAE on AROS if they really, really want to run 68K apps on AROS?  That's what x86_64 users have been doing on Linux, MacOS and Windows for years and it works great.  So the argument that we shouldn't adopt the x86 architecture in order to retain 68K legacy compatibility is ridiculous.  You have to let go of the past to move forward.  Microsoft did....you can't run DOS apps on the current Windows nor Win16 apps without emulation or virtual machines.  Same goes for Apple.  You can't run classic OS9 or PPC apps on current Macs....both parties now rely on emulators or virtual machines for legacy support....DOSBox, VMWare, UAE, VirtualBox, etc...This obsessing over legacy compatibility has led to a dead end street.

[ferrellsl]

Well, you kow how to become a millionaire? Be a billionaire, and inverst the billions into Amiga development - it's really so easy. Apple had money, funding, and a paying customer base. Now look. See the difference?

You're definitely not a programmer who I'd want on my team if you believe that money is the solution or even a substitute for real analysis and engineering.

Funny how Linux is free and it's been ported to every architecture under the sun.....best thing that could happen for OS3 and OS4 is that they be open sourced, but that won't happen....too much greed going on with what's left of the Amiga legacy.

[ferrellsl]

In my experience, money can help shrinking a fair lot of those tricky bits. You are going to pay for that in the long run, though.



Aside comparing two very different pieces of work, created through very different processes, what always strikes me as odd is that the seeming simplicity of AmigaOS and its hardware platform suggests to many critics that everything about the troubles operating system and platform went through might have been caused by simple events which should be simple to sort out. Such as singling out greed as a significant contributor to the troubles.

If only it were greed, or shortsightedness, management failure, absense of a technically inclined founder, or the initial technical edge slipping away because Commodore's controlling shareholders didn't feel like spending any money at all whatsoever on anything, or just about anything else you could reasonably expect to get your head around. Something, anything that could be measured in humanly understandable terms as a handful of events conspiring against the Amiga.

There is no single cause of failure, or a small set of causes which led to failure. It's a frustratingly large number of events battering the Amiga, death by a thousand cuts, stretched over 9-10 years, followed by more grief and tragedy over the next ten years, etc.

Strangely, the Amiga was tested by tragedy and somehow did not disintegrate. To me that's much more interesting than to look for a convenient choice of possible causes, none of which allow us to learn from the past and find a better way for the Amiga to continue to stick around.

Interestingly enough, AROS, both the x86_64 and 68K versions, were also written for free.  So again, if anyone thinks money is the cure for the Amiga's ills, they're sorely mistaken.

[ferrellsl]

And how many of the legacy amiga applications does it run without problems, with which performance, and what is the user count on this?

Again, nothing against AROS, but you're comparing apples and oranges. AROS is there to make AROS programmers happy. AmigaOs is there to make retro-users happy.

Different goals, different rules.

They run just fine using Janus UAE for AROS:   https://sourceforge.net/projects/janus-uae/

or E-UAE:  http://aros.sourceforge.net/documentation/users/applications/euae.php

And for seamless emulation on AROS, the best emulator is AmiBridge which is part of the IcarosDesktop distro:  http://vmwaros.blogspot.com/p/amibridge.html

So no, I'm not comparing apples to oranges.  Someone asked why the Amiga hadn't moved away from a dead CPU architecture and the response was "We need a sh@t load of money to make that happen" and "We need to maintain 100% legacy compatibility".  Those are both fallacies perpetuated by folks who still want to monetize a dead OS called OS3.x and OS4 isn't far behind it.

[ferrellsl]

Sure, money alone solves nothing. However, imagine what would happen if everyone with AmigaOS development expertise could work on it full-time.** Progress would be a lot faster. What would it take to make that happen? Yep, that's right, they'd need to be paid so they can work full-time & still be able to buy food and put a roof over their head.

Hans

** Of course, I'm talking about focused development with well thought out priorities. Haphazard development rarely gets things moving in the right direction.

That's pretty funny because people pay a LOT of $$ for OS4 and NG hardware yet both are  still stuck in 2003.  OS4 has rough feature parity with Windows 98 and I have cell phones that outperform NG PPC hardware.  So yep, that's right, charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware hasn't panned out like you suggest.

As for trying to make a living coding for dead platforms one should lower their financial expectations or look for another line of work.  FYI, no one is making a living coding for the C64 or the Spectrum ZX-81 anymore either.

[ferrellsl]

Where did I suggest "charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware?" I didn't use those words anywhere, nor did I imply it.

I'm simply pointing out that money could in fact help... if you found a suitable source of funds and used it for full-time "focused development with well thought out priorities." Where exactly you get those funds from is beside the point.

Hans

My point is that there won't be any funding sizable enough to sustain one's lifestyle let alone enough revenue to create a sustainable business when it comes to the Amiga and its legacy.  Hyperion has been on life support for years.  And even the Vampire finds its appeal limited to original Amiga enthusiasts so there's no market to be had beyond those folks who have already owned classic Amigas and look to replace or enhance their aging systems.  To believe that Amigas will somehow go mainstream (classic or NG) in the future and support businesses with programmers writing new and useful apps is simply delusional.  The Amiga is dead, both the 68K and PPC varieties.   So all this talk about people needing to pay up and support Amiga programmers and businesses is a bit ridiculous.  You'll have about the same level of success convincing people to pay for apps being written for MS-DOS.

As for money helping, I'd counter that the money would be there if there were compelling products that people actually wanted to buy.  Delivery dates missed by years and broken promises doesn't instill consumer confidence, so prospective buyers take their money elsewhere.  Yes, I'm talking about device drivers, office suites, multi-user security, modern web browsers that support SSL, SMP, 64-bit support, etc....until OS4 steps into the 21st century its user base will continue to shrink to where even the fanatics here won't buy it anymore.

[ferrellsl]

I never intended to upset anyone. this is just a thought I had is all.

I don't think anyone is upset here.  We just have differing opinions.  With the exception of 3-4 people on this site, most are great people and I respect their opinions even though I may disagree with those opinions.

The ones who upset me are those who can't offer any constructive criticisms or support their own opinions with any type of logic so they start calling other people names.

[ferrellsl]

I do think some people aim way to high for the amiga market, I think if we could get the community back to where it was in the 90s it would be victory, which is now regarded a small community and would only make up around 1% of the computer market today, but still be a thrive little community for us to have and I think there is still a small chance that such a community could be built.

Do you have any idea how large 1% of the current computer market is today?  You obviously don't because it's in the millions.  Linux has 3.37% of the entire market currently and in 2014 there were an estimated 14 million Linux users.

There can't be more than 5,000 Amiga users worldwide at the moment, so either you need to brush up on your math skills or bring your expectations back down to the real world.

It would be different if the Amiga had something to offer the general consumer, but it doesn't.

[ferrellsl]

I think that we need to let this play out.

It's like an old gold mine that played out years ago.  There's nothing left but a few scraps....