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Author Topic: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.  (Read 4557 times)

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« on: October 10, 2021, 01:06:05 AM »
In theory not too difficult. Preferably with Kickstart 2 or later in the machine.

The snags are 2 fold. First, you will need a CD ROM handler for taking care of reading different formats.

https://aminet.net/package/disk/cdrom/AmiCDROM-1.15

(it's the baseline choice). Only really needs cd-rom.handler in L directory and CD0 mounlitst in Devs.

However, one very likely possibility is your hard drive may not work at all with another drive on the chain. Compact Flash card adapters do have a reputation fo not working withanother drive on the same cable.

There are different versions of scsi.device as well, worth typing into a shell;-

Version scsi.device         ,- and hit ENTER

To check how compatible with CD-ROM usage.

EDIT: Cable looks correct. Not easy to match the 2 sizes on the same cable, that one looks quite tidy.

Another problem you may have is cable length. I'm not sure what the limit is on a Terriblefire card, part of it would depend on how good the 5 volt supply is to the card.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 01:12:43 AM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2021, 01:55:34 AM »
Oh, there is an alternative software solution if your scsi.device is not CD ROM capable;-

https://aminet.net/package/driver/media/IDEfix97

Comes with filesystem too, should work as was built around A600/A1200 IDE interface.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2021, 01:43:16 PM »
Yeah, but the NICE part about that cable is it gives another ground and 5 volt connection to the Terriblefire.

Buffering means nothing as far as the cable goes, buffers are built into the drives and controllers. They're NOT present on an A600 or A1200 motherboard.

One thing you might want to check is that Mr Leary (Terriblefire) actually has implemented master/slave channels on his "fake Gayle" IDE implementation. Probably has. Might be somebody already tried.

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=65

EDIT: Apparently 3.1 gives best results currently, 3.2 compatibility still problematic (but emerging).
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 02:08:36 PM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 03:30:50 AM »
what is the significance of that +5 v to the card?  the cable you mean is this one i liked specifically?  i'm just making sure i don't get info mixed up. 

The TF536 gets all it's power from the CPU pins. With relocators etc this could be a problem.

Having an extra connection (like that cable) means the power to run the hard drive (CF card or sd card or whatever) doesn't have to come from that CPU pin chain).

Plus a little extra to keep the CPU and CPLD, RAM etc on the TF536 nice and happy. Connecting it should make the system more stable if anything,

Good about 3.1 insight.  That's my personal preference as well.  Thanks for that tip!  I figure 3.2 has potential where it can be enhanced / updated vs. 3.1 being locked in time and nice that 3.0 got a chance to get a revision to work out the kinks of a significantly updated rom. 

"fake Gayle" IDE implementation. ?   what does that mean?  there is an IDE pin setup on the card.  how does this work?  do cd ide adapters have master/slave pins?  i know the cd rom would have to be the other of course..  assuming cf is master and cd rom would be slave.

Most devices default to Master, all CD / DVD drives let you swich via a jumper. The Amiga does not care which is the hard drive and which the CD drive.

You might find some magazine coverdisk CDs show up as bootable devices.Even on 3.1 or even 2.05.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 03:37:26 AM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 10:34:51 PM »
what do you mean by "relocators"? 


You have to remember that TF cards are designed to plug in where the CPU goes inside an A500.

Fitting them in an A2000 is not that easy. Very often people put them into an adapter that goes into the CPU expansion card slot rather than the place that the 68000 chip connects..

More constraint for the power to go through a set of pins before going to the hard drive, to get the card to FIT in the space, you need a relocator.

Having a direct connection means there is more copper to carry to the power, less constraint.

Picture of a relocator (not in English but you can get the idea).

https://www.steffr.ch/a2000-terriblefire-534/
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 10:39:31 PM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2021, 05:12:50 AM »
Well... prepare for an education in mid 80s construction. :)

They were built to last. Depends if pins or slots corroded much. Not at all if description is accurate.

Fingers crossed your plan will succeed.

The only real iffy part is the hard drive replacement being OK with another drive. sd type adapters always work for that, not all compact flash adapters do.

Or even a real IDE hard drive. Although some of them don't work with a second drive either (nearly all do though).
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2021, 05:20:15 PM »
Yes, the A2000, A1000 and A500 all have socketed chips (CPU, Agnus, Denise, Paula, Gary, CIA chips).

A2000 acclerators are a mixed bag. A few insist there is a real CPU in the 68000 socket to bypass. Others don't care and just work, bypassing a real chip and ignoring a missing one.

Don't worry too much about getting the compact flash card perfect first go. You can always replace the adapter, and some of them have power input connectors (usually a floppy drive power cable).

Only if a working CF card stopped working with a CD ROM attached, that's when a replacement might be a good idea. And you might jusr luck out and it all works anyway,
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2021, 06:45:52 PM »
The original cable you linked had a connector to feed power to 2x 44-pin hard drives. Running it "backwards" as you'd need to would mean feeding power directly into the accelerator. Such a thing might be perfectly fine, but it also might be dangerous since the accelerator is designed to draw power only from the CPU socket (and therefore through the onboard regulator circuitry before reaching the 44-pin connector). It's safer - and a hell of a lot cheaper - to use AmigaKit's cable. You could try adding an extension or ask them to do you a custom one that's longer and it would still probably come out cheaper.

It's fine to do that. Really.


The alternative is something like this, like what Pat linked. Instead of removing the 68000 from the motherboard you just mount the TF on one of these and (carefully!) put the whole contraption into the accelerator slot.

There have been a few different versions of that, finding one ready made is a little tricky. Probably an open source project via DirtyPCBs or similar. I think Kipper2K did one for Buffee testing or pistorm.


You could always get a (used) Zorro-based SCSI controller. Not terribly cheap, but not as expensive as an accelerator.
And if you later want to make this into a Toaster/Flyer machine, you don't need a separate SCSI controller, just a hard drive (or equivalent). The Flyer is its own SCSI controller for video hard drives.

No. They can't. TF accelerators don't allow Zorro expansions, either in A2000 Zorro card slots or the expansion bus on the side of an A500 or A1000.

Last I heard, anyway. Which is why I posted the exxos link for the Terriblefire support forums
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2021, 02:33:58 AM »
I don't know which is best in an A2000, TBH.

I suggest you dismantle the thing and have a look. Give it a good work out with just the vanilla 1.3 and processor.

I'd guess the card slot makes marginally more sense, it's why people build them.

Oh, and 1.3 is OK with an 030. Just doesn't have a preboot menu (hold down both mouse buttons) so you can't disable processor caches.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2021, 01:04:40 PM »
Left connector is mouse.

https://www.amigawiki.org/dnl/schematics/A2000_R6.pdf

http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo2.pl?id=a2000&pg=5&res=hi&lang=en

You got 2 floppy drives! Nice. Might be fixed by cleaning and lubing a little. I think right most is drive zero. Although the cable actually selects the drive, should be swappable with each other.

Amiga Accelerators generally don't have drivers or settings, they just go. Or not.

Oh, by (3.1 only official support), that doesn't mean the others don't work at all, just that they are never tested.

And there is a hot key (left Amiga key?) that, when used with the cursor keys, can slowly move the mouse pointer around.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2021, 08:55:17 PM »
ok thanks for that.. yea i figured out it was the left..  now i just hope its ok and it's just my usb adapter that doesn't work well with it.  do you know if there is a particularly good usb/ps2 adapter for the A2000 so I know I have something good?  I have one coming in the mail because i wanted to have one for my A1200 still.. but sadly it looks like it's the same one that I have now..  could it be that some usb optical mice don't work great with these usb to amiga mouse adapters?


Not really. They connect a little differently, that's for sure. But the principal is the same. They do need power, maybe the power pin isn't connected.

IF the ports were for some reason bad, what chip would be responsible for that and how hard would it be to repair? 

Most of the time it's physical damage to the 9 pin connector caused by rage throwing the mouse or joystick. That's a little tricky because you need a fair bit of heat to get the things out of the board. Maybe a broken pin can be bridged, but it's usually a replace job. There are replacements for the port, but the modern ones aren't as solid as the originals.

If you are talking about the adapter getting power OK|, the port is OK, then the mouse pulses from movement get buffered in one chip before being read by Denise. It's nearly always the bufffer chip isn't working. U202 on the schematic (does both ports). the signals are labelled M0V, M0H, M1V, M1H. The type of chip is an 74LS157. The actual connections are listed in the schematic link, Pages "Paula" for the ports, and page "Denise" for where the signals for mouse movement are read by the machine,..

This is all for a Rev 6.2 board, you might well have earlier.

Yes you are correct again the one on the right is the zero drive and what it tries to boot from.. but i have little confidence the disks I'm using.  Most are later 2.05 and later OS expecting disks..  i'm using the mono output for now..  which should show anything that comes out of the RGB port right?  just grayscale?  like if I booted from a lemmings disk (not that i have that game) I'd see everything just in b/w?

Normal for A500 and A2000. Phono composite is grey scale, but colour from RGB port OK.

I haven't tried swapping the drives to see if maybe the other works better?  i have a disk cleaning disk I can pop in there to help insure the heads are clean..  the right drive seems to behave healthy.  sounds good but yea could be sick..  i've used pressured air to blow out dust from around the area and throughout the Box.  Nothing scary came out.. just some acceptable dust bunnies

Not just cleaning, also a little lube on the worm gear that moves the heads across the disk.

Good channel for that stuff (techniques);-

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gadgetuk164+floppy

Well according to the seller the TF cards work like this..   If no 3.1 or newer..  no ram..  no CF card..  and 030 defautls to 7mhz for compatibility..  so yea the card does still "work" without 3.1+ but i figure what's the point if nothing actually improves with it in..  so I'll keep the card out till I replace the rom..  and i have to install the denise scan doubler as well when it arrives

I didn't know about the hot key!  I will try that out tonight.. and swap the disk drives on the chance that left drive might be in better working order..

https://defkey.com/workbench-amigaos-shortcuts

The really funky shortcuts let you flip between running programs.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 01:28:35 AM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2021, 01:33:14 AM »
Oh yeah, one other thing you might be interested in is RGB2HDMI, you can fit an A2000 version of that into the video slot. Gives a nice hires HDMI port, no flicker. Doesn't do superhires though.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2021, 02:03:19 AM »
Good call.

I thought they were trying to use a Playstation controller as a mouse or something.  :'(
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2021, 03:05:02 PM »
Well... if you're not getting +5V on the connector, fuse F1 does indeed look like the cause.

A logic probe helps a lot diagnosing which pins are high, low or changing. Much more accurate than a multimeter.

All Amiga ports except the phono connectors for video and audio have a power pin, that's why you have to be careful to plug in things that are "Amiga compatible" with the power off.

Ideally. I daresay people have come a cropper before with 2 player games and switching out the mouse for a 2nd joystick. Although joysticks usually don't need power, maybe it's only an issue for controllers that do need power.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi