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The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: Motormouth on May 04, 2012, 06:06:25 AM

Title: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 04, 2012, 06:06:25 AM
Which is of these is the better product?

Chameleon 64
can run Minimig Core
Docking Port option
can act as a accelerated CPU

1541 Ultimate II
can load .d64 images as disks
can act as two disk drives
can work with 128 mode

Is this correct?


Which do people feel as the better product?
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Jope on May 04, 2012, 06:32:11 AM
It's not an apples to apples comparison.

If you want the best possible 1541 emulator for your C-64, that reads files off a memory card, get the Ultimate II.

If you want a hardware C-64 emulator with VGA out and cpu accelerator capabilities, get the Chameleon.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Drummerboy on May 04, 2012, 06:59:22 AM
If you have a C=64/128 CPU, then much better the 1541U II. You know, you only will emulate the 1541/1571 Disk Drive, in fact you get more, becouse have many others features, and rember, you will run all the soft in the Real Machine.

But if you dont have the C=64/128, then, maybe better and practical the Chameleon 64.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Darrin on May 04, 2012, 08:35:02 AM
The Chameleon64 also runs D64 and T64 images, plus certain CRT images... and a lot more too.

However, like you said, it is a pure C64 cartridge and won't work with a C128.

I can't comment on the 1541 Ultimate as I've never owned one, but I did have a MMC Replay.  Once I got the Chameleon64 I put my C128/MMC aside and now I just use a C64C/Chameleon combo.

Don't forget the Spectrum core.  I have it loaded on my Chameleon along with the Minimig core, but I've never used a Spectrum and so I don't know what to do with it.  :D
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: yakumo9275 on May 08, 2012, 03:39:22 AM
I love my u1541-II! its fantastic. I just wish it could load my warpspeed2 c128 image when in my c128 :( other than that, fanstastic.

Ive heard good + bad from chameleon. its no good standalone because it has no joystick  so you ned the docking station thing etc? Ive heard it has bugs in its fpga core but that can be fixed.

if your interested in chameleon I'd probably wait for fpga-arcard from mike instead...
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 09, 2012, 03:37:13 AM
Thanks for all the input.  This actually adds significant clarity to the products.

I kinda wanted a a faster processor/REU/flash hard drive like unit for my commodore 128d. I would be cool to run wheels in 80 column mode.

But I like the faster emulated processor/VGA/miming capability of the chameleon.  Ahhh if only the chameleon worked on the 128
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 09, 2012, 06:35:06 AM
I have both.

The U2 works better at drive emulation but the Chameleon offers a lot more functions and you can actually order it.  It took 8 months for me to get the U2 and the Chameleon I got in less than 1 month.

I expect big improvements in the Chameleon in the new few updates.  It already has been updated a lot since I got it and works a lot better than it did!
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: psxphill on May 09, 2012, 09:44:03 AM
Quote from: omnicron10;692441
the Chameleon offers a lot more functions and you can actually order it. It took 8 months for me to get the U2 and the Chameleon I got in less than 1 month.

The 1541u2 has functionality that the chameleon doesn't, so it's not clear cut. Being able to use it on a c128 and either use a real or virtual datasette swung it for me.
 
If you want a real hardware retro experience then get a 1541u2, if you want more then I'd probably get an fpgaarcade.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: yakumo9275 on May 09, 2012, 12:32:41 PM
yep, I have it as an reu in my c128dcr. I've disabled my internal drive on the motherboard so I can use the drive on u1541ii as #8.

if you think you want all the goodies on the chameleon, I'd def get an fpgaarcade over chameleon.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: _ThEcRoW on May 09, 2012, 12:38:34 PM
And here a crazy tought i have: Could be used a chameleon64 with a DTV?. I did the keyboard mod ages ago, but im lacking a disk drive, so a chameleon would be interesting from the disk image point of view.
Thanks in advance!!!
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: XDelusion on May 09, 2012, 02:31:53 PM
The thing about the Chameleon 64 that I dislike is the lack of Midi, therefore no Mssiah. :/
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Darrin on May 09, 2012, 02:54:54 PM
Quote from: _ThEcRoW;692472
And here a crazy tought i have: Could be used a chameleon64 with a DTV?. I did the keyboard mod ages ago, but im lacking a disk drive, so a chameleon would be interesting from the disk image point of view.
Thanks in advance!!!


There's no cartridge port on the DTV to plug the Chamelon in.

The expansion port has connectors for keyboards (as well as the Joystick ports).

Personally, I keep it plugged into a C64C as it makes life easier.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 09, 2012, 03:06:31 PM
Quote from: XDelusion;692475
The thing about the Chameleon 64 that I dislike is the lack of Midi, therefore no Mssiah. :/



It does support Prophet-64 crt images so with a User Port Midi you could almost have both.

If you like GEOS and have tried it on Chameleon 64 with the Turbo on, that is very nice right there.  

The reason it does not work on the 128 is due to the difference between the 64 and the 128 cart ports.  The 128 does not have the same "feature" they need to make it work the same way.  I was tired numerous times by Jens and company.

The Chameleon does support a lot of features that the U2 does but they are not as mature.  They are getting better all the time.

I really like the CDTV IR remote use.  I  find it very handy to use it.    

The only difference in the above list the U2 can work on a 128.  Try to buy on though.  It will take several months of waiting.  Look like June right now to fulfill orders from May and before..  You are looking for a 6 month wait if you order now if the ordering is open.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: XDelusion on May 09, 2012, 03:40:34 PM
What is a user port midi? Midi for the chameleon?

Quote from: omnicron10;692485
It does support Prophet-64 crt images so with a User Port Midi you could almost have both.

If you like GEOS and have tried it on Chameleon 64 with the Turbo on, that is very nice right there.  

The reason it does not work on the 128 is due to the difference between the 64 and the 128 cart ports.  The 128 does not have the same "feature" they need to make it work the same way.  I was tired numerous times by Jens and company.

The Chameleon does support a lot of features that the U2 does but they are not as mature.  They are getting better all the time.

I really like the CDTV IR remote use.  I  find it very handy to use it.    

The only difference in the above list the U2 can work on a 128.  Try to buy on though.  It will take several months of waiting.  Look like June right now to fulfill orders from May and before..  You are looking for a 6 month wait if you order now if the ordering is open.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 09, 2012, 05:40:19 PM
No. It is a midi interface that uses the C64 User Port vs the Crt port.

See http://www.firestarter-music.de/prophet/ for some information.

Midi is basically a serial connection.  On the MSSIAH they basically added the prophet-64 and the MIDI in one device.  Very nice but also takes up the Cart port for all other uses.  

With Chameleon, you can use Prophet 64 ROM Image, REU, 1351 Mouse Emulation, 2nd SID, Jiffy DOS in both the drive and the C64 (with only the rom images), a PS2 KB if you wish, VGA output, Extra Speed and use MIDI on the user port on a real C64.  No other device will do that.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: rvo_nl on May 09, 2012, 06:03:54 PM
Chameleon64 all the way. Im saving up for mine. It even supports using CDTV controller as a remote, so who cares about joysticks anymore. Also the scandoubler is very, very nice and indeed, it supports .d64 images just fine.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: XDelusion on May 09, 2012, 06:31:37 PM
Aghh, but can I use midi without the C64?



Quote from: omnicron10;692498
No. It is a midi interface that uses the C64 User Port vs the Crt port.

See http://www.firestarter-music.de/prophet/ for some information.

Midi is basically a serial connection.  On the MSSIAH they basically added the prophet-64 and the MIDI in one device.  Very nice but also takes up the Cart port for all other uses.  

With Chameleon, you can use Prophet 64 ROM Image, REU, 1351 Mouse Emulation, 2nd SID, Jiffy DOS in both the drive and the C64 (with only the rom images), a PS2 KB if you wish, VGA output, Extra Speed and use MIDI on the user port on a real C64.  No other device will do that.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 09, 2012, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: XDelusion;692500
Aghh, but can I use midi without the C64?


No. You would need the C64.  I have not seen this setup tested 100% with the Prophet 64 and the Chameleon with a C64.  It should work and if it doesn't I would imagine they would like to know to fix any bugs.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: XDelusion on May 09, 2012, 07:02:12 PM
Well then, I'll just stick with my Mssiah and C64 then. :)


Quote from: omnicron10;692501
No. You would need the C64.  I have not seen this setup tested 100% with the Prophet 64 and the Chameleon with a C64.  It should work and if it doesn't I would imagine they would like to know to fix any bugs.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 09, 2012, 07:06:58 PM
Quote from: XDelusion;692502
Well then, I'll just stick with my Mssiah and C64 then. :)


Good idea.

The Chameleon is not a 1.0 release yet.  

Sometime in the rear future I will get the UserPort midi interface and test it with Prophet64 and see how well that works on the Chameleon.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 10, 2012, 03:33:17 AM
Quote from: Darrin;691534
The Chameleon64 also runs D64 and T64 images, plus certain CRT images... and a lot more too.

However, like you said, it is a pure C64 cartridge and won't work with a C128.

I can't comment on the 1541 Ultimate as I've never owned one, but I did have a MMC Replay.  Once I got the Chameleon64 I put my C128/MMC aside and now I just use a C64C/Chameleon combo.

Don't forget the Spectrum core.  I have it loaded on my Chameleon along with the Minimig core, but I've never used a Spectrum and so I don't know what to do with it.  :D


Quote from: omnicron10;692441
I have both.

The U2 works better at drive emulation but the Chameleon offers a lot more functions and you can actually order it.  It took 8 months for me to get the U2 and the Chameleon I got in less than 1 month.

I expect big improvements in the Chameleon in the new few updates.  It already has been updated a lot since I got it and works a lot better than it did!


Quote from: yakumo9275;692471
yep, I have it as an reu in my c128dcr. I've disabled my internal drive on the motherboard so I can use the drive on u1541ii as #8.

if you think you want all the goodies on the chameleon, I'd def get an fpgaarcade over chameleon.


Quote from: Drummerboy;691528
If you have a C=64/128 CPU, then much better the 1541U II. You know, you only will emulate the 1541/1571 Disk Drive, in fact you get more, becouse have many others features, and rember, you will run all the soft in the Real Machine.

But if you dont have the C=64/128, then, maybe better and practical the Chameleon 64.


If the 1541U II had the CPU acceleration, together with the REU and floppy drive emulation, I would buy it hands down.  I really want and accelerated CPU to use it in the C128d 80 column mode.

However, Like Darrin, I have both a c128 (128d) and a C64C.   I really like the idea of an accelerated C64 with REU, VGA and the ability to run separate cores ie Miming.

I do plan to buy one or the other............................
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 10, 2012, 07:46:37 AM
Quote from: yakumo9275;692471

if you think you want all the goodies on the chameleon, I'd def get an fpgaarcade over chameleon.


The Chameleon core is not open source and I doubt you will see it on the FPGAarcade.

The FPGA64 which started on the C-One is vastly inferior VIC emulation to Chameleon.

I have tried almost all the FPGA commodore 64 cores on all the different hardware and the only one to almost get it right and has continual development is the Chameleon.  

Another issue is the CPU core as well.  A lot has been improved since the FPGA64 core on the Chameleon and since more FPGA c64 cores are based on the FPGA64, they would have a lot of work to do to get it close the Chameleon.

I do have to warn that the Chameleon CPU core is not 100% yet but it is the closest.  Even when it is not in high speed mode, the biggest issue is the CPU compatibility a lot of the time.

I think you would be surprised on the amount of software that does not run well on the non-chameleon FPGA cores.  I was not impressed with the others as a C64 replacement.  Chameleon is the only one that has gotten closest
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: utri007 on May 10, 2012, 08:16:45 AM
Sorry to hijack this thread, but are there any similar products out there like MMC64 currently?

I would be perfectly happy with possiblity just load .tap or .d64 files
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 10, 2012, 08:34:49 AM
Quote from: utri007;692574
Sorry to hijack this thread, but are there any similar products out there like MMC64 currently?

I would be perfectly happy with possiblity just load .tap or .d64 files


.TAP would require a audio interface and only the U2 does that over the cassette port.  The Chameleon is suppose to have it at some port over the virtual CIAS.

If you just want .d64 support you can get a SD2IEC interface.

Wiki Page
http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/SD2IEC

If you want to purchase one it looks like you can get it here.
http://store.nkcelectronics.com/sd2iec-boar2.html

and uIEC
http://store.go4retro.com/categories/Commodore/Hardware/uIEC/

But I am not sure how they compare with each other at this point.

It is quite a bit cheaper also.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: psxphill on May 10, 2012, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: Motormouth;692556
If the 1541U II had the CPU acceleration, together with the REU and floppy drive emulation, I would buy it hands down. I really want and accelerated CPU to use it in the C128d 80 column mode.

The 1541u2 is open source, so CPU acceleration is entirely possible.
Gideon would have probably done it himself but he's short on time these days.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 10, 2012, 03:46:20 PM
Quote from: psxphill;692587
The 1541u2 is open source, so CPU acceleration is entirely possible.
Gideon would have probably done it himself but he's short on time these days.


Gideon has released the code that runs on the 1541u2 but not the FPGA source.  That also would not have anything to do with making a CPU accelerator.   For that, a person would need the block and schematic diagram/pinouts for the FPGA and other components on the PCB.  

I am not saying that it could not be a CPU accelerator but it is not.  The Chameleon is here today, it can be ordered and works.  Try to order a 1541u2 and get it inside 6 months.

Although it does not work on the C128 is due to the C128 not being 100% hardware compatible to the c64.  The way that the Chameleon functions does not exist on the C128 hardware.  It was tried and investigated heavily.

I would love it to work on the C128.  The Chameleon fpga pinout is opensource, that allows others to make FPGA cores for the cartridge.  Someone could make a CPU/REU version of the Chameleon that does not have the VGA promotion.   I am not sure that an accelerator on the C128 works 100% from the cart port without internal hardware though.  Didn't the SuperCPU128 require an internal daughterboard?
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Darrin on May 10, 2012, 04:20:50 PM
I wonder how long it will be until we get a C128 core for the Chameleon64.  Then you can make your C64 act like a C128 (minus the keypad, but then you could use a PS-2 keybaord for that).  :)
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 10, 2012, 04:52:35 PM
Really, if you look at it.  The C128 has nothing over the c64 in 40 column mode with a Chameleon.

With the Chameleon you get:

REU (more memory that c128)
Turbo (with C128/C64 $D030 bit support)
COP (chameleon object processor)
Kernel changes via ROM image (enhanced basic or jiffydos type things)

COP allows direct access to the VGA mode on the Chameleon with things like Blitter support and 65k colors.  COP is being redone at this point so we are waiting for what the latest build will have.  I think this is one of the main reasons the we are lacking a Chameleon update for the last few months.

One thing I forgot to mention in previous posts is PAL!

In standalone (if your c64 is NTSC) you can run PAL mode!  So many good demos and games that never worked on NTSC in PAL land!
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Darrin on May 10, 2012, 05:25:11 PM
Yep, I run my NTSC C64C as PAL.

The main thing the C128 had was (as you say) an 80 column mode, plus a better BASIC.  However, if I want to play around with BASIC then I have SIMONS BASIC on a cartridge and a *CRT file on the Chameleon64.  :)
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 11, 2012, 04:38:43 AM
Quote from: omnicron10;692610
 I am not sure that an accelerator on the C128 works 100% from the cart port without internal hardware though.  Didn't the SuperCPU128 require an internal daughterboard?


Quote from: Darrin;692611
I wonder how long it will be until we get a C128 core for the Chameleon64.  Then you can make your C64 act like a C128 (minus the keypad, but then you could use a PS-2 keybaord for that).  :)


Quote from: omnicron10;692613
Really, if you look at it.  The C128 has nothing over the c64 in 40 column mode with a Chameleon.

With the Chameleon you get:

REU (more memory that c128)
Turbo (with C128/C64 $D030 bit support)
COP (chameleon object processor)
Kernel changes via ROM image (enhanced basic or jiffydos type things)

COP allows direct access to the VGA mode on the Chameleon with things like Blitter support and 65k colors.  COP is being redone at this point so we are waiting for what the latest build will have.  I think this is one of the main reasons the we are lacking a Chameleon update for the last few months.

One thing I forgot to mention in previous posts is PAL!

In standalone (if your c64 is NTSC) you can run PAL mode!  So many good demos and games that never worked on NTSC in PAL land!


Quote from: Darrin;692616
Yep, I run my NTSC C64C as PAL.

The main thing the C128 had was (as you say) an 80 column mode, plus a better BASIC.  However, if I want to play around with BASIC then I have SIMONS BASIC on a cartridge and a *CRT file on the Chameleon64.  :)


@Omnicron  You make a point about SuperCPU and the need of an internal board.  I don't know as much about the c128 hardware architecture as I do about the different amigas out there.  But I would guess that the 1 to 2 mhz switching on 8502 and the subsequent  Z80 switch for CPM would make a CPU accelerator tricky without an internal board.

@Omnicron and Darrin:  You both make a very good argument for Chameleon 64.  The question really can I live with GEOS/Wheels in 40 column mode or do I really need 80 column mode.  Alas, I have only set up GEOS/Wheels more/less for fun (isn't that what we do with our Amigas nowadays)  and I really don't use it for any real applications.

You never know with COP maybe we will get c65 emulation (I don't really know enough about the c65) out the Chameleon 64?
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 11, 2012, 07:02:35 AM
Quote from: Motormouth;692696
You never know with COP maybe we will get c65 emulation (I don't really know enough about the c65) out the Chameleon 64?

Would be cool but it would not be via COP.

Jens is not interested in making emulation for really non-existance computer. There was even a question on how much to expand the C64 that would make it essentially a unique computer that never was.

With the power of the FPGA, a computer could be created that is a lot more powerful the c64 or most Amigas!

For a C65 you need to make a VIC III, DMAGIC and the CSG4510 CPU that has two of the 6526 CIAs in it in FPGA.  The CPU and CIAs are kinda portable from the existing FPGA cores but the VIC III and DMAGIC would have to be reversed engineered. Some of the VIC II stuff would be ported over to the VIC III but not enough is know between these two chips and enough software for the VIC III to ever know if it was recreated 100%.

If you created the VIC II 100% from spec sheets, most of the really amazing C64 software would not work!  It can do so much more than the spec sheets have listed.

I think the logical expansion of Chameleon with COP is a good idea.  It could even support multimonitor.  VIC II on the C64 and COP output on the other.  You might even do overlay with COP doing background and the C64 sprites and other items on the screen or visa versa.  Things like that could run on normal C64s and then have an enhanced mode for the Chameleon.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: psxphill on May 11, 2012, 09:34:58 AM
Quote from: omnicron10;692610
Gideon has released the code that runs on the 1541u2 but not the FPGA source.

That is not true. The 1541u2 documentation includes how to install the xilinx tool chain and build everything. http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/doc/1541U2Doc_v0.3.pdf
 
If I had the time to learn about fpgas then I would.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: psxphill on May 11, 2012, 09:39:58 AM
Quote from: Motormouth;692696
@Omnicron You make a point about SuperCPU and the need of an internal board. I don't know as much about the c128 hardware architecture as I do about the different amigas out there. But I would guess that the 1 to 2 mhz switching on 8502 and the subsequent Z80 switch for CPM would make a CPU accelerator tricky without an internal board.

The internal board the supercpu needs for a c128 is for the MMU, because the cartridge slot just gets the 64k view of memory.
 
However the chameleon isn't compatible with the c128 at all because of the way it does the vga output. It doesn't have to be this way, it could be made to work. They just don't want to.
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/message/126
 
The PLA problem Jens talks about is because of how they achieve dual head output (VGA+VIC), you could work round this by only supporting VGA output. At which point you don't need to write to main memory at all, so the MMU problem goes out the window. 80 column output would still work, just no VIC.
 
If you want a real c128 to go faster in c128 mode, then your only option is a supercpu v2 with an mmu adapter. Expensive, but it'll work.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 11, 2012, 04:15:15 PM
Quote from: psxphill;692715
That is not true. The 1541u2 documentation includes how to install the xilinx tool chain and build everything. http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/doc/1541U2Doc_v0.3.pdf
 
If I had the time to learn about fpgas then I would.


At one point he did not release the VHDL.  I will have to see if it actually have the VHDL source.  That would be interesting.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 11, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
Quote from: psxphill;692716
The internal board the supercpu needs for a c128 is for the MMU, because the cartridge slot just gets the 64k view of memory.
 
However the chameleon isn't compatible with the c128 at all because of the way it does the vga output. It doesn't have to be this way, it could be made to work. They just don't want to.
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/message/126
 
The PLA problem Jens talks about is because of how they achieve dual head output (VGA+VIC), you could work round this by only supporting VGA output. At which point you don't need to write to main memory at all, so the MMU problem goes out the window. 80 column output would still work, just no VIC.
 
If you want a real c128 to go faster in c128 mode, then your only option is a supercpu v2 with an mmu adapter. Expensive, but it'll work.


The chameleon started life as a VGA output and FLOPPY replacement.

The C128 does not support the VGA VICII mirroring feature in C64 mode or C128 as you pointed out.  

Could they make a non VGA version?  Sure but that was not the point of the Chameleon.  Since the Chameleon is a commercial product and they have to make money as well, I think resources are better served get the current core as good as possible vs making a c128 version of it.

They have released enough information that if you wanted to make a C128 accelerator you can write your own FPGA for it.  

The C128 also have a lot of cart port timing differences compared to most C64s.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: psxphill on May 11, 2012, 05:35:06 PM
Quote from: omnicron10;692755
Could they make a non VGA version? Sure but that was not the point of the Chameleon.

My suggestion was the opposite, keep the VGA and ignore the VIC. The Chameleon already supports generating VGA output without VIC, so the amount of work would not be huge.
 
I've already got a 1541u2, so I'm not going to buy a chamelon so I can add c128 support. I doubt the OP will either, who clearly wants a chameleon but can't because he wants to use it with c128 software.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 11, 2012, 05:53:58 PM
Quote from: psxphill;692759
My suffestion was the opposite, keep the VGA and ignore the VIC. The Chameleon already supports generating VGA output without VIC, so the amount of work would not be huge.


So you are saying output the VIC display on the Chameleon non-synced with the internal c128 display?  The C128 would be not more than a keyboard I guess.

I am not sure that would work. The "magic" that allows the Chameleon to know what the VIC sees does not seem to work on the C128 so how would the Chameleon display the VIC output?  It is almost like to computers that are synced to each other and the Chameleon is a slave to the master.  The Chameleon has also taken over or duplicated large aspects of the CIAs and MEMORY.  The method in which it has done that I think also precludes things like IEC emulation without a cable unlike the 1541U2.

Just my understanding of how it works.  I have tried to follow it closely.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 12, 2012, 06:24:41 PM
Thanks all,

I have learned quite a bit from this thread!
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 12, 2012, 06:41:20 PM
Quote from: Motormouth;692941
Thanks all,

I have learned quite a bit from this thread!


GOOD!

I like both products.  The 1541 U2 is a great device and does what it is suppose to do with out much fault.  Reasonable updates and feedback seem to the norm as well.

The Chameleon is incredible.  Can be very complicated and is not 100% in the CPU emulation yet but VERY useable.  Depending on what you do with your C64, you might not have any problems with it.  Being able to run PAL in standalone here in NTSC land is very cool.  Future updates should make it even a better device.  C128 support is nice too.

Biggest issue for the 1541 U2 is the time it takes to get one.  It can be 6+ months.

Biggest issue for the Chameleon is the complexity and the semi-beta status of the device.  It can be so many different hardware configurations that you can make settings that don't work.  The documentation is orientated toward a very knowledgeable C64 owner and or programer.  BTW, if you are a C64 programer, they almost all the features of the Chameleon accessible is a very well documented and powerful fashion.

I have heard that the stock of the Chameleon is running low.  I believe a new run will be made but it might take a while.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 13, 2012, 10:38:29 PM
You have talked me into it.  I am going to get the chameleon 64!!!
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 14, 2012, 11:14:17 PM
Looks like the Chameleon is out of stock... sad face...

In the latest firmware there is a documentation   folder now that has a pretty good user manual.  Not bad.

http://beta.icomp.de/bin/Chameleon_Beta-7a.zip
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 15, 2012, 12:09:44 AM
Quote from: omnicron10;693198
Looks like the Chameleon is out of stock... sad face...



Darn :(

Well, it looks like amigakit says it is:    
Stock Expected: (overdue)

This is better than out of stock or T. B. A.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 17, 2012, 01:44:08 AM
One last quick question.

How does one get Minimg core on the Chameleon without a Minimg?
I see there is a Minmig to Chameleon 64 cable that connects through the docking station.

Is this necessary?
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: broken on May 17, 2012, 01:48:57 AM
I thought you just popped the file on the SD card.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: omnicron10 on May 17, 2012, 02:05:46 AM
You use the USB cable and the installer that runs from Linux, MAC and PC.

If you install it to SLOT 0 it will start to Minimig core. If you install it in another slot, you select it in the Chameleon interface.

The Minimig docking station cable is to use the Docking station ONLY with the minimig as an expansion and has nothing to do with the Chameleon and the docking station.
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: psxphill on May 17, 2012, 09:29:27 AM
Quote from: omnicron10;692760
I am not sure that would work. The "magic" that allows the Chameleon to know what the VIC sees does not seem to work on the C128 so how would the Chameleon display the VIC output?

The chameleon has a VIC emulator for when it's not plugged into a c64. It can use that.
 
If it can drive the 80 column chip in the c128 instead then you'll end up with a really powerful system.
 
Quote from: Motormouth;693097
You have talked me into it. I am going to get the chameleon 64!!!

You do know it won't work at all with your c128d?
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: psxphill on May 17, 2012, 09:31:25 AM
Quote from: Motormouth;693097
You have talked me into it. I am going to get the chameleon 64!!!

You do know it won't work at all with your c128d?
Title: Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
Post by: Motormouth on May 30, 2012, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: Motormouth;693202
Darn :(

Well, it looks like amigakit says it is:    
Stock Expected: (overdue)

This is better than out of stock or T. B. A.


Amigakit is taking preorders for the chameleon 64.  They expect to ship on Monday June 4.

Quote from: psxphill;693389

You do know it won't work at all with your c128d?


Yes.

I also have a C64c.  
There are so many things it can do.  Not being able to use it with the c128d is a small price to pay.