Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: VingtTrois on January 09, 2014, 02:27:10 AM
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"What's in a Name? New AmigaONE X5000 name revealed."
A-Eon Technology Ltd - Facebook link (click on the picture)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img706/3905/s88g.jpg) (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=741436842533370)
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Excellent choice, now let's see a functional board with a friendly price :)
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Excellent choice, now let's see a functional board with a friendly price :)
The price will certainly be identical to the old model :-(
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The price will certainly be identical to the old model :-(
At least we'll have 3 prices to choose from, hopefully not something like 2500$, 3000$ and 3500$ or i'll keep my SAM460 for sure :P
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New AmigaONE X5000 name revealed.
Shades of the A5000 from Canada (was it Wonder Computer?)! Though I never saw one in-person, I think the A5000 was just an upgraded A4000 from that company.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org
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Well that makes little sense, jump from X1000 to X5000.
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Seems like they are now trying to avoid Amiga product numbers. That is a good thing.
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Seems like they are now trying to avoid Amiga product numbers. That is a good thing.
No, it seems pointless.
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It's just a product name - at least they went with what the community voted for.
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I think the board will be cheaper than the Nemo.
The name is just a name, but I like the naming convention.
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Well that makes little sense, jump from X1000 to X5000.
Well it makes more sense then going from XBox360 to XBox1.
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well actually they jump from x1000 to x3500, leaving the in between numbers to eg. acube.
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No, it seems pointless.
Well using the A numbers with an X was confusing. They got a lot of criticism from using the 1000 name, since the A1000 was state of the art cutting edge when it was introduced and the X1000 was far from it.
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It's new hardware. Running AmigaOS. But still the community will find a million things to complain about, LOL. Oh well, kudos, anyway! :drink:
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It's new hardware. Running AmigaOS. But still the community will find a million things to complain about, LOL. Oh well, kudos, anyway! :drink:
Well, one sane voice from amongst the fanatics.
Don't expect the legacy wackos to appreciate the new hardware.
Even if it can run circles around their beloved hardware, they hold tightly to their beliefs.
As to pricing, don't get your hopes up folks.
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Well, one sane voice from amongst the fanatics.
Don't expect the legacy wackos to appreciate the new hardware.
Even if it can run circles around their beloved hardware, they hold tightly to their beliefs.
As to pricing, don't get your hopes up folks.
i do not appreciate being called a "fanatic" or a "wacko" as long as my interest remains (for various reasons) with the real thing and not neccesarily with followup hobby projects. it remains everybodys own right to choose whether they are into the fpga systems, mos, aros or os4 or not. while these solutions may be interesting for some (even i have remaining interest in them), they cannot compete with what genuine amiga is, being actual popular and progressive product at its time, rather than a geek project for few interested. wandering around the net you will notice, that there is still rather huge sentiment for amiga, its users keep in private, usually not participating in any so called "amiga" forums, partly even aware of current developments such as aros68k. i dont think you are entiteled to insult these people, just because they might not buy into what *you* consider "amiga ng".
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i do not appreciate being called a "fanatic" or a "wacko" as long as my interest remains (for various reasons) with the real thing and not neccesarily with followup hobby projects. it remains everybodys own right to choose whether they are into the fpga systems, mos, aros or os4 or not. while these solutions may be interesting for some (even i have remaining interest in them), they cannot compete with what genuine amiga is, being actual popular and progressive product at its time, rather than a geek project for few interested. wandering around the net you will notice, that there is still rather huge sentiment for amiga, its users keep in private, usually not participating in any so called "amiga" forums, partly even aware of current developments such as aros68k. i dont think you are entiteled to insult these people, just because they might not buy into what *you* consider "amiga ng".
Apparently you have your own opinions.
But while you can ask me to be more civil, you can't convince me to join you.
The Amiga is dead.
And, it was a seriously over priced device when new.
Which is why I gravitated to other 68K based systems that offered better value.
As to the value of NG systems, while no one is insisting you join this community, at least they can run modern software.
"they cannot compete with what genuine amiga is"
Yes, they are not deathly slow with limited and expensive upgrade options.
And you are a fanatic.
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Please, don't turn this into a flame war.
If you don't like the new hardware, then just don't say anything. There are to much negativity and its driving people away.
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Please, don't turn this into a flame war.
If you don't like the new hardware, then just don't say anything. There are to much negativity and its driving people away.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative.
I have actually been looking forward to this hardware for awhile.
And there is no promise my OS of choice will ever run on it.
Its just nice to have some new Amiga hardware.
Yes, I used the word Amiga, unapologetically.
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Apparently you have your own opinions.
sure i do, am i supposed to be a sock puppet?
But while you can ask me to be more civil
thanks, i almost didnt dare.
you can't convince me to join you.
as if it was my goal. btw, missionize is (i guess) exactly what fanatics usually do. and now note, that it is actually you, who want to convince the likes of me to resign of our bias in favour of yours.
The Amiga is dead.
well observed. except that mine are working.
And, it was a seriously over priced device when new.
Which is why I gravitated to other 68K based systems that offered better value.
As to the value of NG systems, while no one is insisting you join this community, at least they can run modern software.
"they cannot compete with what genuine amiga is"
Yes, they are not deathly slow with limited and expensive upgrade options.
im not so much interested to engage in that kind of arguments anymore. it doesnt actualy affect facts.
And you are a fanatic.
see my answer above. seems asking you to be civil is really a waste of time. wonder why.
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... seems asking you to be civil is really a waste of time. wonder why.
Quite right actually.
I was discussing this with Andre Siegel recently, and I think its related to an innate need to cut through it and quickly establish the boundaries of a relationship.
We have an obvious difference of opinion here, but I at least look favorably of the devices in question.
And my a2000 still works too, when I choose to use it.
It still doesn't make the platform any less dead.
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Geeze, somebody is combative enough? Just waiting for this to turn into another 10-page-thread going back and forth about whether the new hardware is actually "Amiga", etc.
Here we go, I'll bring the
(http://www.diabetesmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/popcorn.jpg)
:crazy: :crazy:
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Geeze, somebody is combative enough? Just waiting for this to turn into another 10-page-thread going back and forth about whether the new hardware is actually "Amiga", etc.
Here we go, I'll bring the
(http://www.diabetesmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/popcorn.jpg)
:crazy: :crazy:
It could go there.
At least the new machine runs AmigaOS, which is more than the planned Amiga Inc. machines would have.
Of course, most people conveniently forget that most calls for a new ISA ask for X86/x64 hardware.
We are an argumentative lot.
At least we know when to break out the snacks and beverages.
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Quite right actually.
I was discussing this with Andre Siegel recently, and I think its related to an innate need to cut through it and quickly establish the boundaries of a relationship.
ok, apparently you have a problem.
We have an obvious difference of opinion here, but I at least look favorably of the devices in question.
if it still makes you feel entiteled to call others names..well. i had my say and am done with it.
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ok, apparently you have a problem.
No, I'd have a problem if I kept that in.
if it still makes you feel entiteled to call others names..well. i had my say and am done with it.
Obviously not since you are back.
However, since this isn't "getting hit over the head class", I don't mind you being here for an argument.
BTW - How would you feel if A-eon secured the right to call these Amigas?
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sigh.. you are obviously mistaking me for vox. i didnt went rage on cusa when they secured the right to call their systems "amiga". it doesnt affect my genuine interests. are we done yet?
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(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/George-Costanza-Eating-Popcorn.gif)
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sigh.. you are obviously mistaking me for vox. i didnt went rage on cusa when they secured the right to call their systems "amiga". it doesnt affect my genuine interests. are we done yet?
No, but you're right, your not VOX.
You can still be reasoned with.
And its not like I can't appreciate your viewpoint, I used to share it.
But things change.
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Don't use f*ckbook!
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Don't use f*ckbook!
Hey, Andre says we can not make fun of a banned poster!
f*ckbook indeed. :hammer:
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Well, one sane voice from amongst the fanatics.
Don't expect the legacy wackos to appreciate the new hardware.
Even if it can run circles around their beloved hardware, they hold tightly to their beliefs.
As to pricing, don't get your hopes up folks.
And that from someone that wants to buy not competitive PPC hardware (both price and performance). From the view of a X86/X64 user you could be called "legacy wacko" too. What do you think? And do Amigans only like hardware that is underpowered compared to the competition? :-)
"they hold tightly to their beliefs" I do not know why I think of you too...
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Funny how often/much, aros/morphos users are commentic (again) hardware / os wich shouldn't interest them.
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Funny how often/much, aros/morphos users are commentic (again) hardware / os wich shouldn't interest them.
I only comment here because of certain phrases used by him that are not very nice. And to be precise Iggy is a MorphOS user praising A-eon (a mixed beast so to say :-) ).
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And that from someone that wants to buy not competitive PPC hardware (both price and performance). From the view of a X86/X64 user you could be called "legacy wacko" too. What do you think? And do Amigans only like hardware that is underpowered compared to the competition? :-)
"they hold tightly to their beliefs" I do not know why I think of you too...
Fair enough, I actually like being part of a small community.
And the quad core 2.5 GHz G5 I am rebuilding is in no way underpowered.
My X64 desktop has two less cores and a similar speed.
Also, for Amiga like OS', its overkill.
You guys build can build your own hardware, I'll stick with Macs and the stuff A-eon is building.
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I only comment here because of certain phrases used by him that are not very nice. And to be precise Iggy is a MorphOS user praising A-eon (a mixed beast so to say :-) ).
That DOES seem weird, doesn't it?
After exchanging some messages with him, I honestly like Trevor Dickinson.
And I have watched the development of Freescale's e5500 cored cpus since they were announced.
Now that A-eon is not directly tied to Hyperion, I don't have a problem cheer-leading for them.
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Now that A-eon is not directly tied to Hyperion,
is that how trevor sees it? because so far it looks like they are directly tied to each other, doesnt it?
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is that how trevor sees it? because so far it looks like they are directly tied to each other, doesnt it?
I know with Hyperion's history of maligned statements, it can be hard to forgive anyone remotely connected with them.
But I don't hold a grudge against OS4, its users, or developers.
Specifically, while there are others involved in this too, its Ben Hermans I object to.
And he is no longer part of A-eon.
Even most of the MorphOS developers I've talked to don't dislike Trev.
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i definitely do not dislike trevor, nor even hold grudge against os4 home company, while im just not buying into their offer anymore. especially i dont see why i necessarily need to support something i dont believe in or keep my mouth shut against all odds. while i can understand that trevor probably still sees os4 as best opportunity or a good starting point, no matter the drawbacks, i alas cant share this view. perhaps there is something to justify it i dont know about but, alas the passing time and course of events seem to fit my exepectations.
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Wawrzon, no one is forcing you to support any one. No one is forcing any one to support any one.
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He HAS a point.
The pricing IS exceedingly painful.
Basically its serves a niche market and is a vanity project.
No one is trying to argue practicality here.
Its a hobbyist system.
Not only isn't he forced to buy it, he doesn't have to support it.
There is a strong argument not to.
I never said my own attraction to this system was based on logic.
If it was, I wouldn't support the idea of a Morphos port, as a 2.5 G5 Quad core PowerMac would offer the same performance as the best of these boards, at a much reduced cost.
That being said, I still like it.
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They can call it AmigaONE DonkeyBalls X5000/5020:eP64-1A4 for all I care.
What's more important to me is that:
- it is released to the public by the end of 2014
- it is available in Board + OS form
- the "price of admission" for the new systems (X3500 board + OS) is bellow US$1,000
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They can call it AmigaONE DonkeyBalls X5000/5020:eP64-1A4 for all I care.
What's more important to me is that:
- it is released to the public by the end of 2014
- it is available in Board + OS form
- the "price of admission" for the new systems (X3500 board + OS) is bellow US$1,000
I have not seen that quoted before.
That would be a great improvement in pricing.
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I have not seen that quoted before.
That would be a great improvement in pricing.
It would be nice to get down to that pricing level, but with the high engineering and design costs and small production runs, it will not be achievable, unless boards were sold at a loss.
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It would be nice to get down to that pricing level, but with the high engineering and design costs and small production runs, it will not be achievable, unless boards were sold at a loss.
I...didn't think that was realistic either.
I'd done some numbers estimating an 'at cost' T1022 based board and that was at least as high as that price.
And...I really want one of the two higher end boards.
Or...a successor with AltiVec instructions.
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I...didn't think that was realistic either.
I'd done some numbers estimating an 'at cost' T1022 based board and that was at least as high as that price.
And...I really want one of the two higher end boards.
Or...a successor with AltiVec instructions.
What I specified is a wish list; basically I'm calling out some of the key reasons I didn't purchase a X1000:
- Delayed release
- Complete PC only
- High price tag
To all involved working on these new systems I'd like to say that hitting two of the three wishes would go a long way. Basically, I don't want a complete PC and I won't care about it in 2016. If you manage to release it in the next 12 months, as a Board + OS kit, and somewhere between US$1,000 and US$1,500 for the entry level X3500, then it is appealing.
I'm having a "replacing Giambi" moment here (from Moneyball).
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What will the X1000/X5000 offer the average hobbyist?
As I have mentioned before... Trevor gets a F- for economics. He built a machine for his own pride and joy whilst neglecting the basic principles of economics.
At least Commodore made sure that their products were affordable. Surely it would have been nice if every A1200/A600 sold had included a HD floppy drive, CD-ROM, hard drive, Ethernet and loads of RAM but the price would have been excessive and out of the reach of most users.
My advice is instead of producing another unaffordable model look at ways to deliver an affordable CR version at a price that would attract users to the OS4 platform.
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If Trevor followed any economic sense or logic he wouldn't be in the Amiga market at all.
The fact that he decided to ignore sense and spend his money the way he wanted to - rather than the way many would deem sensible - is something I and many other AmigaOS 4 users are very grateful to him for.
Basic economics says that it's impossible to make much money in the Amiga market these days. Supply can be made but the demand isn't there. Therefore supply has to be lessened. Less supply means higher prices - economies of scale. Higher prices then means less demand. Getting the balance right is very tricky and I think Trevor did it well with the X1000.
Trevor aimed for the high end of the Amiga market, leaving Acube with the low end, which makes complete sense. That meant using high end components like the PA6T despite the cost, on the grounds that the Amiga users really wanting as fast a machine as possible would have deep enough pockets, and they did.
Commodore were in a BIG market but Trevor isn't - hardly anyone wants a platform with very little software, even at a low price. In the 80s, small companies existed to make big games and programs, which helped push demand. Today people expect programs made with budgets in tens if millions of dollars or more. Not practical on a tiny OS.
Whatever we do, we will never be able to take advantage of economies of scale like Commodore did, it's just impossible. Comparing Commodore to A-Eon is pointless unless you also compare the meerkat that A-Eon and Commodore are in.
Trevor knows full well about economics, but he chose to spend his money the way he wanted to and benefited hundreds of others in the process, and for that I applaud him.
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@spirantho,
+1
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If you are going to go for an F- in economics at least build something that more Amiga users would afford. Or else pay Hyperion to port OS4 to cheaper systems (x86/Arm/whatever)
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If you are going to go for an F- in economics at least build something that more Amiga users would afford. Or else pay Hyperion to port OS4 to cheaper systems (x86/Arm/whatever)
Building a custom x86 or ARM board in the same quantities would yield the same high design, manufacturing and engineering costs. The answer lies in the scale of production. The "fun" starts at 10,000 units.
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@Amigakit
+1
Look at MacOS 10 for X86, only runs on Apple's Machines.
And the new Pro cost more than 5000$ ( the basic version).
:flame:
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@Amigakit
+1
Look at MacOS 10 for X86, only runs on Apple's Machines.
And the new Pro cost more than 5000$ ( the basic version).
:flame:
The Mac Pro starts at $3000 and is not a consumer grade machine. Even Apple will tell you that, it's meant for video production houses. Want a desktop Mac, buy an iMac for a grand. I've got a 2011 iMac and it still handles everything I can throw at it.
I've had Hackintoshes (http://www.hackintosh.com/) for 3 years - OS X installed on commodity PC kit, entirely non Apple hardware. It is not difficult to do. 20 minutes and a couple Google searches.
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Hey, Andre says we can not make fun of a banned poster!
I have never said anything about what the visitors of amiga.org can or cannot do.
What I did do was ask you personally if you think it is sane behaviour to open up a new discussion thread specifically to shame somebody else by calling that person insane.
Sadly, you failed to see see the hypocrisy of your actions, and you seem to have missed my point entirely.
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Building a custom x86 or ARM board in the same quantities would yield the same high design, manufacturing and engineering costs. The answer lies in the scale of production. The "fun" starts at 10,000 units.
I meant, port the OS to already existing hardware such an Intel Nuc or something like that.
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Building a custom x86 or ARM board in the same quantities would yield the same high design, manufacturing and engineering costs. The answer lies in the scale of production. The "fun" starts at 10,000 units.
Which is the biggest barrier, funding the 10,000 units or fear of having a crippling number of unsold units.
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It makes zero sense to buld 10,000 x86/ARM motherboards when they are available off the shelves.
1. Port OS4 to a readily available motherboard. You will have a few thousands of possible Amiga OS4 buyers.
2. Being x86, it will be way easier to port open source software to OS4 and it will run faster.
3. Everybody wins.
Now if the future of the Amiga OS is an underspecced, ridiculously expensive computer with an obvious lack of decent software...
PS. Sorry for being blunt, not my intention to offend anyone here...
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Why would its being x86 make it easier to port open source software?
Being x86 would, however, break nearly all Amiga programs because of endianness, hence the use of PPC.
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Guess because software be addressing the same CPU?
Yeah let's keep the Amiga in the PPC era so we can run 15 year old software :)
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Guess because software be addressing the same CPU?
Yeah let's keep the Amiga in the PPC era so we can run 15 year old software :)
I guess it magically deals with the problems associated with Amiga OS having it's own API's too.
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No but it would be the first step to make the OS to be more accessible.
You have to start somewhere.
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If Trevor followed any economic sense or logic he wouldn't be in the Amiga market at all.
The fact that he decided to ignore sense and spend his money the way he wanted to - rather than the way many would deem sensible - is something I and many other AmigaOS 4 users are very grateful to him for.
Basic economics says that it's impossible to make much money in the Amiga market these days. Supply can be made but the demand isn't there. Therefore supply has to be lessened. Less supply means higher prices - economies of scale. Higher prices then means less demand. Getting the balance right is very tricky and I think Trevor did it well with the X1000.
Trevor aimed for the high end of the Amiga market, leaving Acube with the low end, which makes complete sense. That meant using high end components like the PA6T despite the cost, on the grounds that the Amiga users really wanting as fast a machine as possible would have deep enough pockets, and they did.
Commodore were in a BIG market but Trevor isn't - hardly anyone wants a platform with very little software, even at a low price. In the 80s, small companies existed to make big games and programs, which helped push demand. Today people expect programs made with budgets in tens if millions of dollars or more. Not practical on a tiny OS.
Whatever we do, we will never be able to take advantage of economies of scale like Commodore did, it's just impossible. Comparing Commodore to A-Eon is pointless unless you also compare the meerkat that A-Eon and Commodore are in.
Trevor knows full well about economics, but he chose to spend his money the way he wanted to and benefited hundreds of others in the process, and for that I applaud him.
isnt that mantra of small scale economics anything but a self fulfilling propecy? i mean one could even imagine a strategy to address a wider audience and therefore lower entry cost even with some custom system (as its been proven in case of raspi and similar projects that do not even have a legacy to build upon). but i dont think, one should start with developing yet another similar hardware in the particular case of os4. it would be more important to establish actual unique (software) features (not xmos) and secure steady development to attract young users, and this is where the initial investments should have gone. the current strategy instead seems rather to addres exclusively the existing well-off collector user base, where the price point doesnt really matters and the drawbacks are easily accepted as long as the system is not neccessarily needed for actual usage. the minor questions like a naming convention arent going to solve the matter either.
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@EverBlue,
OK, one example scenario: A-EON buys 10,000 units of off the shelf x86 motherboards without CPU at about $1m cost, which will likely be discontinued stock in 3-6 months in the PC world.
Then Hyperion takes at least 18 months to port the OS to it.
What will happen? Will customers want an x86 board in 2 years time branded as an "Amiga" that has long since expired its shelf life in PC world terms? Or will they accept that it? Will be be able to sell 10,000 units? These are the business risks that would have to be taken.
In addition to the hardware, every third party software that has been written for PowerPC AmigaOS needs to be recompiled for the new x86 ISA under AmigaOS.
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A-eon dont have to buy anything, users would buy the motherboards from wherever they want to. OS4 and programmes will have only to be ported once. In case of newer motherboards Hyperion/Aeon could create newer drivers and sell them as system updates.
The only thing Amiga in Sam and nemo boards is the Operating System.
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@EverBlue,
OK, one example scenario: A-EON buys 10,000 units of off the shelf x86 motherboards without CPU at about $1m cost, which will likely be discontinued stock in 3-6 months in the PC world.
Then Hyperion takes at least 18 months to port the OS to it.
why would you need to secure 10k units in advance once the os is ported to a a platform with rather well maintained backwardards compatibility. aros has proven that it is possible to maintain "amiga ng" system not only on x86 hardware.
What will happen? Will customers want an x86 board in 2 years time branded as an "Amiga" that has long since expired its shelf life in PC world terms? Or will they accept that it?
like they are already accepting an already by it specs at the release time outdated hardware?
Will be be able to sell 10,000 units? These are the business risks that would have to be taken.
im not a position to lecture anyone, thats sure, but frankly, can you explain, how is your (aeon's) current strategy less risky?
In addition to the hardware, every third party software that has been written for PowerPC AmigaOS needs to be recompiled for the new x86 ISA under AmigaOS.
im not sure it should even been done. there is x86 amiga ng os. its aros. just port whatever os4 software you deem neccessary to it (i dont think there is much of it) and you are done with the x86 "amiga" transition.
edit: btw i dont think an os porting timeframe figure of 18 months is realistic. at least not for hyperion. judging the current progress pace when every single driver is taking forever i dont think they would ever complete such a task. another reason to go aros as a base, if you ask me.
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Thanks, I thought I was the only one seeing things differently here.
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isnt that mantra of small scale economics anything but a self fulfilling propecy? i mean one could even imagine a strategy to address a wider audience and therefore lower entry cost even with some custom system (as its been proven in case of raspi and similar projects that do not even have a legacy to build upon). but i dont think, one should start with developing yet another similar hardware in the particular case of os4. it would be more important to establish actual unique (software) features (not xmos) and secure steady development to attract young users, and this is where the initial investments should have gone. the current strategy instead seems rather to addres exclusively the existing well-off collector user base, where the price point doesnt really matters and the drawbacks are easily accepted as long as the system is not neccessarily needed for actual usage. the minor questions like a naming convention arent going to solve the matter either.
The steady development has to be done on hardware, though - and before the X1000, the highest end Amiga was the Sam 460 which doesn't have many of the features we need to keep up (SMP being the obvious example).
There's no point in just/ throwing money at software, as the hardware will then stagnate. By providing the hardware, Trevor has allowed other people to produce the software; the other way round, though, can't happen - if Trevor were to put money into software, there'd be no hardware to take advantage of it: people can't homebrew hardware platforms like they can software.
I think people have forgotten why the X1000 exists.
The X1000 was created to allow hardcore fans of the Amiga the chance to buy really powerful (for an Amiga) hardware, and to allow Hyperion a platform on which to build new features such as multi-processing, which are a necessity in computing today. It was never meant to be accessible or to gain new users, it was meant to provide the foundation upon which future hardware boards can be made. Without the X1000, most of the advancements that have been on OS4 (which are "under the hood" so non-developers can't see them yet - but trust me they are there) would not have been possible.
We can't move forward by standing still or by concentrating on what already exists, we need to keep pushing, and that requires boards like the X1000 to exist.
As for unique software features, I don't believe that's possible - much as I'd like to. Computing is too big a field, and expectations are too high these days. The RasPi was in a different situation because the goals are much lower (the PI is just a chip on a board with a video and USB sockets really, nothing like the complete system the X1000 is) and was always designed to run Linux so it had an existing semi-mainstream software base.
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OK, one example scenario: A-EON buys 10,000 units of off the shelf x86 motherboards without CPU at about $1m cost, which will likely be discontinued stock in 3-6 months in the PC world.
$100 per motherboard at qty. 10,000??? What are you buying? There are solid board from reputable vendors for less than $60 in qty. 1 that run circles around the X1000 board technology-wise. I'm sure you could get them for $50 or less at qty. 10,000.
Then Hyperion takes at least 18 months to port the OS to it.
They might want to get started on a base x86 port ahead of time to avoid stock sitting for 18 months. Your scenario exists in the custom PPC world, not in the x86 world.
What will happen? Will customers want an x86 board in 2 years time branded as an "Amiga" that has long since expired its shelf life in PC world terms? Or will they accept that it? Will be be able to sell 10,000 units? These are the business risks that would have to be taken.
Well, some users are apparently willing to pay $3000+ for technology 6+ years old - so why not! But again, that scenario doesn't exist.
Buy 5 boards today, start the base x86 port. Once the base port is done the only problem is drivers for video, audio, etc... the same problems that existing with PPC hardware! The only difference now is you no longer need to source custom hardware any longer. You buy an off-the-shelf x86 board, develop drivers, and that's your new AmigaOne model for 2 years. Rinse and repeat.
In addition to the hardware, every third party software that has been written for PowerPC AmigaOS needs to be recompiled for the new x86 ISA under AmigaOS.
Most Amiga users don't care about existing PPC software. Bring classic software over with integrated emulation and let developers port what they want from PPC.
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Whatever we do, we will never be able to take advantage of economies of scale like Commodore did, it's just impossible. Comparing Commodore to A-Eon is pointless unless you also compare the meerkat that A-Eon and Commodore are in.
Funny, Raspberry Pi had no market when they started and they introduced incredibly cheap hardware and how many have they sold?
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The RPi has a huge established market (Linux and/or geek users) and is really just a cheap embedded chip on a board with a few sockets - orders of magnitude less complex than an X1000.
They knew that because the unit cost was going to be SO low, they could produce millions and they would sell, and recoup costs.
Design costs of RPi: Much, much lower.
Market size of RPi: Much, much higher.
Risk of producing 1,000,000 Rpi and taking advantage of economies of scale: Much, much lower.
Making 1,000,000 RPi = make a fortune. Making 1,000,000 Amiga boards of similar spec to X1000 = suicide.
The two cannot be compared.
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@EverBlue,
OK, one example scenario: A-EON buys 10,000 units of off the shelf x86 motherboards without CPU at about $1m cost, which will likely be discontinued stock in 3-6 months in the PC world.
Then Hyperion takes at least 18 months to port the OS to it.
What will happen? Will customers want an x86 board in 2 years time branded as an "Amiga" that has long since expired its shelf life in PC world terms? Or will they accept that it? Will be be able to sell 10,000 units? These are the business risks that would have to be taken.
In addition to the hardware, every third party software that has been written for PowerPC AmigaOS needs to be recompiled for the new x86 ISA under AmigaOS.
You always insist on building custom boards. Why on earth when hardware is available everywhere? It makes economically no sense. Use X86 Macs like MorphOS team propably want or you have compatibility list with supported hardware. Use Linux kernel like the Arix team does. Or port it to ARM and support Raspberry. Developing own hardware makes no sense. Even Amigakit could sell custom build PCs then and earn money with it. Everything would make more sense than building "Highend" PPC based custom hardware (the problem is highend is not performance but only price).
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The RPi has a huge established market (Linux and/or geek users) and is really just a cheap embedded chip on a board with a few sockets - orders of magnitude less complex than an X1000.
They knew that because the unit cost was going to be SO low, they could produce millions and they would sell, and recoup costs.
Design costs of RPi: Much, much lower.
Market size of RPi: Much, much higher.
Risk of producing 1,000,000 Rpi and taking advantage of economies of scale: Much, much lower.
Making 1,000,000 RPi = make a fortune. Making 1,000,000 Amiga boards of similar spec to X1000 = suicide.
The two cannot be compared.
Would a Amiga that would have sold like RPi not been better?
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Thanks, I thought I was the only one seeing things differently here.
No you are not alone :-)
but Trevor is not interested in creating a Amiga-Market but creating his own small toys. So it will propably not happen. But the nice thing is there is one platform that is supporting X86/X64 and ARM. So people should support it where possible. MorphOS might change platform too in future, who knows. AmigaOS will not change platform because of missing money. Frieden brothers do not own the OS, they are propably contract workers/freelancers so a change would require lots of money and I do not see where they would get that. Trevor is mainly interested in his custom hardware and already invests further in new PPC hardware so I do not expect him to pay for a port.
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If you do not choose a product based on one specific x86 motherboard, A-EON or Hyperion will need to commission a wide ranging development of drivers and firmware for the any supported x86 motherboard because no two x86 motherboards are alike.
The developer resources (and financial cost) to keep pace with current x86 motherboard hardware developments would be significant, due to the short shelf life of x86 hardware. Then you are paying to support motherboards that are discontinued within a few months of release.
It would be better from a practical and anti-piracy point of view to concentrate on a limited set of x86 motherboards. Apple do exactly this. However, an investment in securing these boards for the 2 years+ product life would be required.
Today's Linux community can support a wide range of x86 boards due to the huge pool of developers willing to write drivers and provide support for different hardware configurations. AmigaOS developer community in contrast is very much smaller.
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The steady development has to be done on hardware, though - and before the X1000, the highest end Amiga was the Sam 460 which doesn't have many of the features we need to keep up (SMP being the obvious example).
There's no point in just/ throwing money at software, as the hardware will then stagnate. By providing the hardware, Trevor has allowed other people to produce the software; the other way round, though, can't happen - if Trevor were to put money into software, there'd be no hardware to take advantage of it: people can't homebrew hardware platforms like they can software.
I think people have forgotten why the X1000 exists.
The X1000 was created to allow hardcore fans of the Amiga the chance to buy really powerful (for an Amiga) hardware, and to allow Hyperion a platform on which to build new features such as multi-processing, which are a necessity in computing today. It was never meant to be accessible or to gain new users, it was meant to provide the foundation upon which future hardware boards can be made. Without the X1000, most of the advancements that have been on OS4 (which are "under the hood" so non-developers can't see them yet - but trust me they are there) would not have been possible.
We can't move forward by standing still or by concentrating on what already exists, we need to keep pushing, and that requires boards like the X1000 to exist.
As for unique software features, I don't believe that's possible - much as I'd like to. Computing is too big a field, and expectations are too high these days. The RasPi was in a different situation because the goals are much lower (the PI is just a chip on a board with a video and USB sockets really, nothing like the complete system the X1000 is) and was always designed to run Linux so it had an existing semi-mainstream software base.
"As for unique software features, I don't believe that's possible - much as I'd like to"
I think a "unique" feature would be running faster on a hardware than competition. All Amiga-successors are simpler than Linux/Mac/Windows, that is sometimes a disadvantage but that can be a advantage in regards of performance. Even if some devs (including members of the MorphOS team) claim otherwise, performance is still very important and defines what can be done with a computer.
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If you do not choose a product based on one specific x86 motherboard, A-EON or Hyperion will need to commission a wide ranging development of drivers and firmware for the any supported x86 motherboard because no two x86 motherboards are alike.
The developer resources to keep pace with current x86 motherboard hardware developments would be significant, due to the short shelf life of x86 hardware.
It would be better from a practical and anti-piracy point of view to concentrate on a limited set of x86 motherboards. Apple do exactly this.
The Linux community can support a wide range of x86 boards due to the huge pool of developers willing to write drivers and provide support for different hardware configurations.
ARIX shows that it is possible to use Linux as base for driver support. Or you use Mac X86/X64 as hardware.
And BTW on X1000 parts of the hardware are unsupported and the functionality is added by additional cards. I do not see a real difference to build a PC using compatible off-the-shelf hardware.
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aros has proven that it is possible to maintain "amiga ng" system not only on x86 hardware.
Absolutley no disrepect intended to AROS developers: I can imagine how much hard work it is to maintain distributions for specific systems, the key to a viable business is having a current product that is available and in demand. AROS Devs are always reactively developing their system to x86 hardware that has hit the retail shelves already, so hardware quickly becomes discontinued.
Despite the long time AROS has been available since late 1990's, I do not see a plethora of AROS retailers out there and a lot of AROS machines sold. I expect the AROS team continue development from a love of the original Amiga spirit, as we all do. The big business question is: if you are confident that x86 Amiga is the commercial future of our platform, over the years why has AROS not attracted a significant market share yet? Is it because of the pace of keeping up with x86 hardware changes?
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ARIX shows that it is possible to use Linux as base for driver support. Or you use Mac X86/X64 as hardware.
Since ARIX isn't available or even been demoed publicly it shows nothing.
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Absolutley no disrepect intended to AROS developers: I can imagine how much hard work it is to maintain distributions for specific systems, the key to a viable business is having a current product that is available and in demand. AROS Devs are always reactively developing their system to x86 hardware that has hit the retail shelves already, so hardware quickly becomes discontinued.
Despite the long time AROS has been available since late 1990's, I do not see a plethora of AROS retailers out there and a lot of AROS machines sold. I expect the AROS team continue development from a love of the original Amiga spirit, as we all do. However if you think that x86 Amiga is the future, why has AROS not attracted a significant market share yet? Is it because of the pace of keeping up with x86 hardware changes?
I had contact to former Amiga developers to get permissions, many were former AmigaOS user but were not interested to spend the money for new PPC hardware and had no faith in Hyperions strategy. Sadly, they most left the market and did not change f.e. to MorphOS. Where is the "success" of current strategy. It is astonishing that such a expensive hardware sales at all but I see not that the userbase grows or will grow.
Regarding AROS I have a different view. Look at the userbase. Many have left at all, those who are still there have mostly decided for a platform a long time ago, they have their software and are mostly emotionally tied to it. And to win real new users all camps lack features. Aros with 64bit, SMP in some form, driver support by Linux, 128 GB RAM support and so on might bridge the gap.
The main problem (for all camps) to win real new users is missing software. And outside the community nobody knows that the platform is still there (no marketing)
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Since ARIX isn't available or even been demoed publicly it shows nothing.
then I could say X5000 is not existing either because there is no working system shown in the public. And 4.2. is vaporware too because it is only talk.
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The main problem (for all camps) to win real new users is missing software
Yes, I agree with you. People buy computers for the software they can run on it.
That is why A-EON is developing AMIStore (an app store for AmigaOS) and the emphasis from A-EON in 2014 will be on software production, supporting the AmigaONE X1000 owners out there first and foremost and creating a base for future models such as the X5000.
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Yes, I agree with you. People buy computers for the software they can run on it.
That is why A-EON is developing AMIStore (an app store for AmigaOS) and the emphasis from A-EON in 2014 will be on software production, supporting the AmigaONE X1000 owners out there first and foremost and creating a base for future models such as the X5000.
There is already a app store created by phoenixconsole that supports AmigaOS, doubling it exclusively for AmigaOS does not make sense (but we have the resources sigh...).
And regards software... we will see. I only know from the port of Libre Office but it is again done by the Friedens and after the experience with Firefox I have some doubts. The problem is when you have software that is in development then it is not done with a one time port.
But as I wrote, I think Trevor does it for his own pleasure and not because he want to revive the platform. And everybody can do with his money what he likes. My personal interest is to recreate (to a certain degree) a platform that is interesting for commercial development (f.e. for small INDY developers) and I do not believe that X5000 is the right direction to get there.
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Since ARIX isn't available or even been demoed publicly it shows nothing.
Sounds exactly like OS4.2. Your point is?
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Absolutley no disrepect intended to AROS developers: I can imagine how much hard work it is to maintain distributions for specific systems, the key to a viable business is having a current product that is available and in demand. AROS Devs are always reactively developing their system to x86 hardware that has hit the retail shelves already, so hardware quickly becomes discontinued.
Despite the long time AROS has been available since late 1990's, I do not see a plethora of AROS retailers out there and a lot of AROS machines sold. I expect the AROS team continue development from a love of the original Amiga spirit, as we all do. The big business question is: if you are confident that x86 Amiga is the commercial future of our platform, over the years why has AROS not attracted a significant market share yet? Is it because of the pace of keeping up with x86 hardware changes?
Absolute nonsense. AROS has drivers for more hardware than MorphOS and OS4 combined.
OS4 doesn't even support all the hardware on the X1000 and it's been around since 2009.
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Absolute nonsense. AROS has drivers for more hardware than MorphOS and OS4 combined.
he propably means that not everything is supported. That is true (even the case on Linux) but for that you create custom build sytems using supported parts. That is already possible with Aros.
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I did mention that Amiga NG having "no software" is its biggest problem, but I was told not to expect much. Instead of A-Eon investing in an "Amistore" why don't they invest in the software directly? Software drives hardware sales alongside to affordability.
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Sounds exactly like OS4.2. Your point is?
I don't know why you bring OS4.2 into it, this isn't some kind of battle of the OS'.
Olaf said that "ARIX shows that it is possible to use Linux as base for driver support.". The point is that without ARIX being out in the wild it does not and can prove or show anything.
People have to be able to see something to be shown. Do you understand?
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The developer resources (and financial cost) to keep pace with current x86 motherboard hardware developments would be significant, due to the short shelf life of x86 hardware. Then you are paying to support motherboards that are discontinued within a few months of release.
It would be better from a practical and anti-piracy point of view to concentrate on a limited set of x86 motherboards. Apple do exactly this. However, an investment in securing these boards for the 2 years+ product life would be required.
I am afraid you are ill-informed. Long-term availability is a crucial concern for many industrial and embedded applications so numerous companies sell x86 mainboards with a guarantueed minimum production life of 5 years.
For example, Kontron sell Mini-ITX mainboards that are compatible with Intel i3, i5, and i7 processors and they advertize up to 7 years of availability after release. These type of mainboards are very similar to consumer mainboards but generally use better components and are specifically designed to last.
For bundles of long-term available mainboards and Intel processors, end user prices could be well below $1000 USD for hardware that would provide competitive levels of performance.
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My personal interest is to recreate (to a certain degree) a platform that is interesting for commercial development (f.e. for small INDY developers)
Yes, absolutely right: this is my personal goal too. I think for too long a time, small talented indy developers on the Amiga have not received any financial recognition of their work and ultimately gave up on Amiga and left our community. The Amiga has suffered because of this talent drain away from the platform.
An App Store should be a good step in the direction of encouraging bedroom coders again for the Amiga.
@Andre.Siegel
Interesting information that I didn't consider about the industrial x86 boards.
@EverBlue
Instead of A-Eon investing in an "Amistore" why don't they invest in the software directly? Software drives hardware sales alongside to affordability.
I agree. A-EON is doing both: investing in both AMIStore (a platform and delivery mechanism) and engaging with software developers directly to promote development. However, we need to consider that results will not appear overnight.
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I don't know why you bring OS4.2 into it, this isn't some kind of battle of the OS'.
Olaf said that "ARIX shows that it is possible to use Linux as base for driver support.". The point is that without ARIX being out in the wild it does not and can prove or show anything.
People have to be able to see something to be shown. Do you understand?
they showed the concept as graphic. If you see a system booting you do not see the kernel, think of Mac using a Linux kernel (I think BSD). So it is a matter of believing :-). But I assume that we will hear more from it this year.
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I am afraid you are ill-informed. Long-term availability is a crucial concern for many industrial and embedded applications so numerous companies sell x86 mainboards with a guarantueed minimum production life of 5 years.
For example, Kontron sell Mini-ITX mainboards that are compatible with Intel i3, i5, and i7 processors and they advertize up to 7 years of availability after release. These type of mainboards are very similar to consumer mainboards but generally use better components and are specifically designed to last.
It should be noted, though, that a quick Google search suggests these boards start at about £280 including VAT, much more than an equivalently specced "normal" motherboard.
If A-Eon or Amigakit were to use these, they'd have people complaining about having to use years-old x86 motherboards when there are much cheaper brand-new ones out there.
Either way, they can't please everybody, so better to do what they are doing I think - make a design decision (i.e. custom PPC motherboards) and stick to it. Better than to keep changing direction.
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I don't know why you bring OS4.2 into it, this isn't some kind of battle of the OS'.
Olaf said that "ARIX shows that it is possible to use Linux as base for driver support.". The point is that without ARIX being out in the wild it does not and can prove or show anything.
People have to be able to see something to be shown. Do you understand?
No one has been shown OS4.2 and its vapor "SMP", not even a description of how it might work as a concept (unlike ARIX) but you still believe.
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he propably means that not everything is supported. That is true (even the case on Linux) but for that you create custom build sytems using supported parts. That is already possible with Aros.
Just like the X1000 and OS4, so for anyone to try and make people believe otherwise is disingenuous at best.
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It should be noted, though, that a quick Google search suggests these boards start at about £280 including VAT, much more than an equivalently specced "normal" motherboard.
If A-Eon or Amigakit were to use these, they'd have people complaining about having to use years-old x86 motherboards when there are much cheaper brand-new ones out there.
Either way, they can't please everybody, so better to do what they are doing I think - make a design decision (i.e. custom PPC motherboards) and stick to it. Better than to keep changing direction.
They could always tie OS4 to used Intel Macs. ;)
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Several beta-testers I believe are running the new kernel, but they're all under NDA, so you don't hear about it.
It's not vapour, though - it's just not out yet.
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They could always tie OS4 to used Intel Macs. ;)
An interesting suggestion I suspect they will choose to ignore. :)
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It should be noted, though, that a quick Google search suggests these boards start at about £280 including VAT, much more than an equivalently specced "normal" motherboard.
If A-Eon or Amigakit were to use these, they'd have people complaining about having to use years-old x86 motherboards when there are much cheaper brand-new ones out there.
changing direction.
Yeah, they will complain anyway, so let's use £1500 boards instead!
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Several beta-testers I believe are running the new kernel, but they're all under NDA, so you don't hear about it.
It's not vapour, though - it's just not out yet.
I've used ARIX since the middle of last year and I'm not even under NDA.
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An interesting suggestion I suspect they will choose to ignore. :)
Nah, they'll release it 5yrs too late like they did with the Pegasos II port if their track record is anything to go by.
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I've used ARIX since the middle of last year and I'm not even under NDA.
all who want to betatest it now have to sign a NDA. When I read it I thought after signing the NDA you are propably even not allowed to say that you signed a NDA :-).
It is existing but it does not look different to Aros. So even if there would be a video on youtube showing it booting people could still say it is Aros. And that is not untrue :-).
I see no reason to doubt that the concept works, otherwise why publishing the graphic. And there was a interesting discussion on amigaworld where the main kernel developer explained the concept.
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all who want to betatest it now have to sign a NDA. When I read it I thought after signing the NDA you are propably even not allowed to say that you signed a NDA :-).
It is existing but it does not look different to Aros. So even if there would be a video on youtube showing it booting people could still say it is Aros. And that is not untrue :-).
I see no reason to doubt that the concept works, otherwise why publishing the graphic. And there was a interesting discussion on amigaworld where the main kernel developer explained the concept.
I really haven't signed an NDA yet I still use it and have done so for over 6 months.
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No one has been shown OS4.2 and its vapor "SMP", not even a description of how it might work as a concept (unlike ARIX) but you still believe.
I guess you didn't understand the point then.
With regard to OS4.2 I haven't claimed that it proves multicore slots neatly into AmigaOS, to be truthful I will remain sceptical about whether or not it will work until I see it. Please try to see past the hostile fanboi stereotype that I exist as in your mind.
Anyway since you say that you have had ARIXfor the past 6 months, does it boot on every x86 system you've tried, and are you no longer stuck with glitchy video modes on certain video hardware.
Is the concept a reality?
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I guess you didn't understand the point then.
With regard to OS4.2 I haven't claimed that it proves multicore slots neatly into AmigaOS, to be truthful I will remain sceptical about whether or not it will work until I see it. Please try to see past the hostile fanboi stereotype that I exist as in your mind.
Anyway since you say that you have had ARIXfor the past 6 months, does it boot on every x86 system you've tried, and are you no longer stuck with glitchy video modes on certain video hardware.
Is the concept a reality?
I'm not sure I understand your point.
Does OS4.2 boot on any PPC hardware?
Is it free from glitches?
"hostile fanboi stereotype", yep you fit that.
Did you know that Nik has used OS4 in the past?
I thought about it myself, but only so I could play around with A-eon's neat hardware.
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I'm not sure I understand your point.
Does OS4.2 boot on any PPC hardware?
Is it free from glitches?
"hostile fanboi stereotype", yep you fit that.
Did you know that Nik has used OS4 in the past?
I thought about it myself, but only so I could play around with A-eon's neat hardware.
I still do use OS4 Jim, though because I believe both MorphOS and AROS to be superior to it (but for different reasons) for many people this makes anything I have to say on the matter irrelevant.
OS4 users aren't allowed to discuss it's shortcomings in public for fear of being tarred and feathered as a traitor.
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I still do use OS4 Jim, though because I believe both MorphOS and AROS to be superior to it (but for different reasons) for many people this makes anything I have to say on the matter irrelevant.
OS4 users aren't allowed to discuss it's shortcomings in public for fear of being tarred and feathered as a traitor.
Confusing isn't it?
Campaign to help them get a decent browser.
Try to offer some kind of laurel branch.
Get your hand bit off if your sound the least bit critical.
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I guess you didn't understand the point then.
Genrally when people say "Your point is?" it's because they do not understand the point you are failing to make, yes.
With regard to OS4.2 I haven't claimed that it proves multicore slots neatly into AmigaOS
Hyperion and it's various paid and unaid mouthpieces are liars?
to be truthful I will remain sceptical about whether or not it will work until I see it. Please try to see past the hostile fanboi stereotype that I exist as in your mind.
Your words Rob.
Anyway since you say that you have had ARIXfor the past 6 months, does it boot on every x86 system you've tried, and are you no longer stuck with glitchy video modes on certain video hardware.
Is the concept a reality?
1. Yes.
2. Never had nor heard of that problem before you montioned it. Seing as most about else who has used ARIX is under NDA - therefore cannot mention anything - are you sure you aren't just making that up?
3. Yes.
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Confusing isn't it?
Campaign to help them get a decent browser.
Try to offer some kind of laurel branch.
Get your hand bit off if your sound the least bit critical.
That sounds not too dissimimilar to a desription of a beaten wife.
"OS4 users - Ungrateful, paranoid, serial abusers" a great marketing slogan. :lol:
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ps Don't ask for more info about ARIX as I won't give any. I may not be under NDA but I have respect for the developers.
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The RPi has a huge established market (Linux and/or geek users) and is really just a cheap embedded chip on a board with a few sockets - orders of magnitude less complex than an X1000.
They knew that because the unit cost was going to be SO low, they could produce millions and they would sell, and recoup costs.
Design costs of RPi: Much, much lower.
Market size of RPi: Much, much higher.
Risk of producing 1,000,000 Rpi and taking advantage of economies of scale: Much, much lower.
Making 1,000,000 RPi = make a fortune. Making 1,000,000 Amiga boards of similar spec to X1000 = suicide.
The two cannot be compared.
You're making my point. They should be making low-cost hardware, not "high-end" outdated hardware. If the FPGA Arcade Relay ever makes it out it will sell tons more than the X1000 or Cyrus.
The Amiga market is limited, no doubt, but there's a huge untapped market of classic owners and prior Amiga users who would be tempted to buy something if it was relatively inexpensive and interesting.
To me, the X1000 is neither.
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If you do not choose a product based on one specific x86 motherboard, A-EON or Hyperion will need to commission a wide ranging development of drivers and firmware for the any supported x86 motherboard because no two x86 motherboards are alike.
Of course, you start by supporting a select few boards - or even one board! Like you do with the X1000.
The developer resources (and financial cost) to keep pace with current x86 motherboard hardware developments would be significant, due to the short shelf life of x86 hardware. Then you are paying to support motherboards that are discontinued within a few months of release.
You don't have to support every board.
It would be better from a practical and anti-piracy point of view to concentrate on a limited set of x86 motherboards. Apple do exactly this. However, an investment in securing these boards for the 2 years+ product life would be required.
Right. How big is the Amiga market? Say you start by picking 1 board to support and buy 2000 of them. That's $100,000 for 2000 boards. How much was spent to develop the X1000? And how many boards were produced?
Today's Linux community can support a wide range of x86 boards due to the huge pool of developers willing to write drivers and provide support for different hardware configurations. AmigaOS developer community in contrast is very much smaller.
That's why you start small.
Why do so many in the Amiga community think that it's all or nothing? Custom PPC or support EVERY x86 board? It doesn't have to be that way. Smart people don't want x86 support because they want to run AmigaOS on EVERY available motherboard - they want it so they don't have to spend $3000 on outdated hardware just to run an underdeveloped OS!
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I think a "unique" feature would be running faster on a hardware than competition. All Amiga-successors are simpler than Linux/Mac/Windows, that is sometimes a disadvantage but that can be a advantage in regards of performance. Even if some devs (including members of the MorphOS team) claim otherwise, performance is still very important and defines what can be done with a computer.
Irrelevant while AmigaOS is tied to PPC. Who cares if AmigaOS is more "efficient" when you can buy a FAR more powerful x86 that will run circles around an X1000 for sub-$500 and consume 16 watts?
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Of course, you start by supporting a select few boards - or even one board! Like you do with the X1000.
You don't have to support every board.
Right. How big is the Amiga market? Say you start by picking 1 board to support and buy 2000 of them. That's $100,000 for 2000 boards. How much was spent to develop the X1000? And how many boards were produced?
That's why you start small.
Why do so many in the Amiga community think that it's all or nothing? Custom PPC or support EVERY x86 board? It doesn't have to be that way. Smart people don't want x86 support because they want to run AmigaOS on EVERY available motherboard - they want it so they don't have to spend $3000 on outdated hardware just to run an underdeveloped OS!
Amen to that!
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Despite the long time AROS has been available since late 1990's, I do not see a plethora of AROS retailers out there and a lot of AROS machines sold. I expect the AROS team continue development from a love of the original Amiga spirit, as we all do. The big business question is: if you are confident that x86 Amiga is the commercial future of our platform, over the years why has AROS not attracted a significant market share yet? Is it because of the pace of keeping up with x86 hardware changes?
Perhaps, but tied to that it's because it doesn't have the Amiga name. AROS is also not as developed as AmigaOS or MorphOS. They also don't create systems, they create an OS.
What if someone like Trever had decided to put his money somewhere else? Pay for a portion of the AmigaOS port to x86. Choose and secure the necessary x86 boards and create a select line of "AmigaOne" x86 systems. Perhaps choose 3 boards - MiniITX, MicroATX and full ATX variations of the same board. Have 3 systems all requiring the same drivers - something small form factor, a slim tower, and a mid-tower.
Instead of AmigaKit building the same hardware over and over again you could be building a variety of systems at a variety of price ranges - all for probably lower development costs.
In the above scenario, would he have sold more systems or fewer? I bet more. Much more. And the x86 port would have been done and future systems would have been much less costly.
If a port is not feasible, then go the ARIX route - it makes sense to me. Going down the path the Amiga market is currently going does not make sense - it leads to certain and inevitable death.
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It would be financially suicide to build a variety of systems for a variety of price ranges in a small market.
Besides, IMHO ppc makes sense, there is no need for amiga os to become yet another obscure x86 OS. And stepping in others footstep, means you can never pass them.
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It would be financially suicide to build a variety of systems for a variety of price ranges in a small market.
Besides, IMHO ppc makes sense, there is no need for amiga os to become yet another obscure x86 OS. And stepping in others footstep, means you can never pass them.
And given the budget AmigaOS has you aren't going to pass anyone, Andriod, iOS, MS Windows, OSX... Realistically it's survival you want, anything else is cream.
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...Going down the path the Amiga market is currently going does not make sense - it leads to certain and inevitable death.
'He's dead, Jim'
Get over it.
And given the budget AmigaOS has you aren't going to pass anyone, Andriod, iOS, MS Windows, OSX... Realistically it's survival you want, anything else is cream.
Dead, alive?
We are still here.
And A-eon is now producing three type of boards instead of one.
Sounds successful to me.
While the company that wanted to build commodity based Amigas is no more.
Yeah, we should listen to YOU guys.
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It is about 20 years too late in regards to porting to x86, IMO.
I fail to see what it would buy us, even if it was easy to do. You're still having to use an emulator to run legacy programs, and you are never going to get all of said legacy software ported to the new architecture. At least with my PPC "Amiga" hardware, whether it be MOS or OS4, I still can run the vast, vast majority of old Amiga programs without having to use an emulator.
You'd have an Amiga like OS on commodity hardware, which would lower the costs of entry, for sure, though.
Smells like AROS to me, IMHO.
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It would be financially suicide to build a variety of systems for a variety of price ranges in a small market.
Besides, IMHO ppc makes sense, there is no need for amiga os to become yet another obscure x86 OS. And stepping in others footstep, means you can never pass them.
Not when the variety comes at no additional costs. It's not like they're engineering multiple motherboards.
So, becoming an obscure x86 OS is somehow worse than being an obscure PPC OS? Certainly not for the end users shelling out the cash for the hardware.
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...
Besides, IMHO ppc makes sense, there is no need for amiga os to become yet another obscure x86 OS. And stepping in others footstep, means you can never pass them.
"I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space"
Hamlet
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I love how both sides passive agressivly claims the other camp is raving lunatics/fanbois/zealots.
For the most part you all come off equally bad.
The only intresting part of this thread is the exchanges between amigakit and Kremlar.
Substance instead of mudslinging makes for intresting read. Who would have thought.
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I love how both sides passive agressivly claims the other camp is raving lunatics/fanbois/zealots.
For the most part you all come off equally bad.
The only intresting part of this thread is the exchanges between amigakit and Kremlar.
Substance instead of mudslinging makes for intresting read. Who would have thought.
"Your a loony" - Monty Python :banana:
The only substance here was the initial announcement.
Amigakit just didn't want anyone misrepresenting their price range.
The rest of it has been yet another displaced Moobunny thread.
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I'm not sure I understand your point.
Simply the point that ARIX hasn't been seen yet so can't have yet shown anything. I fail to understand why that's been deemed so offensive.
P.S.
I was probably one of the first people to register MorphOS for Efika and only rushed to buy one because MorphOS was being released and had some neat new features and Sputnik browser.
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Genrally when people say "Your point is?" it's because they do not understand the point you are failing to make, yes.
Too busy wanting to feel offended to actually take in what I said.
Hyperion and it's various paid and unaid mouthpieces are liars?
Your words Rob
I don't seem to recall that I said in this thread that anyone had lied.
1. Yes.
2. Never had nor heard of that problem before you montioned it. Seing as most about else who has used ARIX is under NDA - therefore cannot mention anything - are you sure you aren't just making that up?
3. Yes.
I think it was my Toshiba Celeron 1.8ghz based Laptop with Intel video that it failed to even boot on, and the Core2 system with a Radeon 4670 that I was stuck with %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!ty slow VESA mode with some serious graphical glitches.
On other systems I tried in the past, mainly 32-bit Athlon with GeForce 2 video I have had no problems watsoever and there was a Dell system I tried once too and had sucess.
None of this is made up.
Just curious if ARIX will make such a hit and miss factor a thing of the past since, that presumably is the point of using Linux underpinnings.
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Well if they wrote the code correctly moving to ARM or X86 shouldn't be that hard. Apple did both.
Anyway, we'll have to wait for Anubis/ARIX to see if they have an answer...
It is about 20 years too late in regards to porting to x86, IMO.
I fail to see what it would buy us, even if it was easy to do. You're still having to use an emulator to run legacy programs, and you are never going to get all of said legacy software ported to the new architecture. At least with my PPC "Amiga" hardware, whether it be MOS or OS4, I still can run the vast, vast majority of old Amiga programs without having to use an emulator.
You'd have an Amiga like OS on commodity hardware, which would lower the costs of entry, for sure, though.
Smells like AROS to me, IMHO.
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Man!
Can we go off on some tangents or what?
Back to the topic of the thread.
OK AmigaKit, if we don't have the price range right, what IS it likely to be?
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If Trevor followed any economic sense or logic he wouldn't be in the Amiga market at all.
The fact that he decided to ignore sense and spend his money the way he wanted to - rather than the way many would deem sensible - is something I and many other AmigaOS 4 users are very grateful to him for.
Firstly if it is not affordable do not associate it with Amiga - Trevor has gone more Apple than Amiga when it comes to pricing.
Trevor knows full well about economics, but he chose to spend his money the way he wanted to and benefited hundreds of others in the process, and for that I applaud him.
Great for Trevor if he wants to spend $50,000,000 on a motherboard. But to suggest that he is in it for charity is a joke. It is overpriced and consumers are not blame for his R&D budget blowout. However, there will always be people with more money than sense -- like those who purchased a Amiga from Commodore USA!
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It should be noted, though, that a quick Google search suggests these boards start at about £280 including VAT, much more than an equivalently specced "normal" motherboard.
Prices in the UK tend to be a bit higher than on the European mainland but you can definitely find much better pricing for long-term available mainboards.
Since I mentioned Kontron, here is an example:
http://www.dpieshop.com/kontron-ktq87mitx-industrial-miniitx-intel-core-i3-i5-i7-socket-lga1150-motherboard-p-1281.html
230 GBP (incl. VAT) - This price is for single unit purchases! And this is certainly not the lowest price I have seen.
If A-Eon or Amigakit were to use these, they'd have people complaining about having to use years-old x86 motherboards when there are much cheaper brand-new ones out there.
So, your argument appears to be that because some people might perhaps object to pay 50% more for extra durable and long-term available hardware, it is better to continue to sell hardware that costs 1000% more (and is notably slower).
Please do correct me if I misunderstood.
Either way, they can't please everybody, so better to do what they are doing I think - make a design decision (i.e. custom PPC motherboards) and stick to it. Better than to keep changing direction.
Failure to learn from mistakes and to adapt in a timely manner has killed many former industry leaders, including Commodore.
If you realize that an on-going project will not help you reach your goals afterall, I see no point in "sticking with" what you realized is ultimately a bad plan.
The question is what the motivation of the A-Eon management is. If the goal is to sell premium specialty mainboards to hobby enthusiasts, then I see no point to switch to x86 processors (for future custom mainboard designs) or to pre-designed industrial mainboards.
If, however, the company's primary mission is to nurture the development and market adoption of an operating system, then the situation would be very different, of course.
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Man!
Can we go off on some tangents or what?
Back to the topic of the thread.
OK AmigaKit, if we don't have the price range right, what IS it likely to be?
Lets hope the design phase cost less than that of the X1000 and price difference isn't solely the cost of the CPU.
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So, your argument appears to be that because some people might perhaps object to pay 50% more for extra durable and long-term available hardware, it is better to continue to sell hardware that costs 1000% more (and is notably slower).
The X1000 is the highest end, the Sams are much cheaper than that. Slower, yes, but still enjoyable and usable (I know this because I enjoy and use my little Sam440).
My argument is that whatever AmigaKit or A-Eon do, they will never make everybody happy, and there will always be people complaining - and at least they're doing something.
And regarding the comment above about Trevor doing it out of charity: there is a world of difference between supporting your hobby in a way which benefits many, like he did, and simply giving money away. Amazing that somebody who actually promises something to further the OS, and then follows up on his promises, gets slated so much. Trevor has helped many Amiga fans by his actions and he deserves to be praised for this.
Anyway, this is argument has gone on long enough and is getting nowhere, it's been done to death already in the past. I'm taking no further part in it.
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Firstly if it is not affordable do not associate it with Amiga
Did you ever see the price of big-box Amigas back in the day? The A500/600/1200 were cheap, but the big-box Amigas make the X1000 etc. look semi-affordable, it wasn't totally a budget machine.
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And the funny part is that many of the loudest complainers, are mos and aros fanboys. Who will never get os4.
My argument is that whatever AmigaKit or A-Eon do, they will never make everybody happy, and there will always be people complaining - and at least they're doing something.
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230 GBP (incl. VAT) - This price is for single unit purchases! And this is certainly not the lowest price I have seen.
So, your argument appears to be that because some people might perhaps object to pay 50% more for extra durable and long-term available hardware, it is better to continue to sell hardware that costs 1000% more (and is notably slower).
I wouldn't even pay that. For the extra money you'd pay for these boards I'd just buy more stock of standard boards to hold in inventory.
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nu
Too busy wanting to feel offended to actually take in what I said.
I don't seem to recall that I said in this thread that anyone had lied.
I think it was my Toshiba Celeron 1.8ghz based Laptop with Intel video that it failed to even boot on, and the Core2 system with a Radeon 4670 that I was stuck with %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!ty slow VESA mode with some serious graphical glitches.
On other systems I tried in the past, mainly 32-bit Athlon with GeForce 2 video I have had no problems watsoever and there was a Dell system I tried once too and had sucess.
None of this is made up.
Just curious if ARIX will make such a hit and miss factor a thing of the past since, that presumably is the point of using Linux underpinnings.
You didn't boot ARIX on your Core2 nor did you boot it on your Athlon Rob, so what is the point you are trying to make?
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And the funny part is that many of the loudest complainers, are mos and aros fanboys. Who will never get os4.
Except that I'm a Hyperion customer who uses OS4. Other than that your analysis is spot on.
edit: Reading through this thread again, the people you are complaining about are neither MOS nor AROS fanboys, so what was your point again?
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nu
You didn't boot ARIX on your Core2 nor did you boot it on your Athlon Rob, so what is the point you are trying to make?
Oh sorry I was was talking about AROS. I was posting a little late last night sorry I was a bit unclear and didn't mention AROS specificly. Certainly never even claimed to have seen ARIX let alone run it. So sorry for any confusion
What I'm asking is does the ARIX implementation with it's underlying Linux driver base allow it to run on any system without having to carefully select what hardware you use. I assume that's the goal.
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I wouldn't even pay that. For the extra money you'd pay for these boards I'd just buy more stock of standard boards to hold in inventory.
I am afraid you have not thought this through. I would recommend that you talk to business owners about the immense difficulty of accurately predicting consumer demand several years in advance.
There are huge financial risks involved if you overestimate demand which will need to be considered when you choose a price. If you cannot sell 30% of your inventory or you need to sell for 30% below your initial investment just to get rid of all units, which would not be an unusual percentage, you would have to choose a roughly 50% higher price just to cover that.
Also, financing inventory and storage cost money as well. The bigger your inventory, the higher your storage costs, etc.
In addition to all of this, there are also huge issues with warranty replacements once a product has been out of production for two years which is not the case if you deal with long-term available hardware.
From a business perspective, going the consumer mainboard route would most likely be more expensive as well as much riskier.
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@Andre.Siegel
may i point out that you seem to propose a bare motherboard for 230gbp, without cpu and ram, let alone a complete system. okay, its still much less than x1k for much better hardware, but it still isnt cheap.
anyway, we can talk it to the death, but the train has departed, the funds have been invested, development or even betatesting started, so os4 fans are left with no choice for better or worse.
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A port to X86 is not going to happen. We all know Hyperions position on that subject, which IMHO is good. If people want X86 then go for AROS or UAE.
New hardware is good news for most of us.
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Except that I'm a Hyperion customer who uses OS4. Other than that your analysis is spot on.
edit: Reading through this thread again, the people you are complaining about are neither MOS nor AROS fanboys, so what was your point again?
Yes, I'm blue, and I support A-eon.
And I am not sure why Andre would assume I'd paying that much for a rather unremarkable X64/X86 motherboard.
I hope that strategy is not what AROS or MorphOS developers consider in the future.
Its one thing to pay a premium for a board built to market the requirements of our tiny markets.
Its quite another thing to pay a premium for a board that competes in the commodity computing market.
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A port to X86 is not going to happen. We all know Hyperions position on that subject, which IMHO is good. If people want X86 then go for AROS or UAE.
New hardware is good news for most of us.
exactly, and since what you say is true, it remains nothing else to do as to wish the effort success and that both customers and developers will be satisfied with the outcome.
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@Andre.Siegel
may i point out that you seem to propose a bare motherboard for 230gbp, without cpu and ram, let alone a complete system. okay, its still much less than x1k for much better hardware, but it still isnt cheap.
If you wanted to go cheap, you could. As I mentioned before, there are many companies offering hardware with long product life cycles. You can buy Jetway mainboard and processor bundles for 150 USD on newegg.com which are being advertized to have at least a 5 year product life cycle.
There are plenty of choices out there that span a wide gamut of price points.
That being said, I am not proposing anything. I can think of reasons for staying with the Power Architecture for now, but the lack of stable x86 / x64 hardware options is definitely a myth, albeit one that has been repeated quite often for some reason.
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...I can think of reasons for staying with the Power Architecture for now...
GOOD, so can I.
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A port to X86 is not going to happen. We all know Hyperions position on that subject, which IMHO is good. If people want X86 then go for AROS or UAE.
New hardware is good news for most of us.
This is true, my arguments are for the community in general. AROS does not have the Amiga name and with the community so fractured there are not enough people in any of the segments to have any traction. It's too bad.
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Yes, I'm blue, and I support A-eon.
And I am not sure why Andre would assume I'd paying that much for a rather unremarkable X64/X86 motherboard.
I hope that strategy is not what AROS or MorphOS developers consider in the future.
Its one thing to pay a premium for a board built to market the requirements of our tiny markets.
Its quite another thing to pay a premium for a board that competes in the commodity computing market.
There's no need to pay a premium for an x86 board if you go with a common board from a reputable vendor.
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I am afraid you have not thought this through. I would recommend that you talk to business owners about the immense difficulty of accurately predicting consumer demand several years in advance.
Actually I am a business owner. There's no need to predict several years in advance other than, perhaps, gambling that the x86 market will remain relevant enough for years to come and warrant a port. It will.
There are huge financial risks involved if you overestimate demand which will need to be considered when you choose a price. If you cannot sell 30% of your inventory or you need to sell for 30% below your initial investment just to get rid of all units, which would not be an unusual percentage, you would have to choose a roughly 50% higher price just to cover that.
You don't need to overestimate demand. You don't need to buy thousands of units upfront, perhaps just a hundred. That's the beauty of not custom building your own boards. You pick a reasonably priced board from top vendor that's at the beginning of it's lifecycle.
Also, financing inventory and storage cost money as well. The bigger your inventory, the higher your storage costs, etc.
Why would you need huge inventory when there are literally thousands and thousands of vendors in the x86 market doing it for you? Perhaps you keep tabs on motherboard availability - but that's it. We're talking about a market that would likely initially support the sale of HUNDREDS of units over a year or 2, probably not thousands.
In addition to all of this, there are also huge issues with warranty replacements once a product has been out of production for two years which is not the case if you deal with long-term available hardware.
You buy 5% above what you sell for warranty replacements and out of warranty repairs. That's far more reasonable a price to pay versus paying quadruple+ the price for the oddball boards you are recommending, especially because you can always resell what you don't need or use. Most top tier board manufacturers warranty their motherboards for 3+ years.
From a business perspective, going the consumer mainboard route would most likely be more expensive as well as much riskier.
I disagree. It's far less expensive and much less risky.
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exactly, and since what you say is true, it remains nothing else to do as to wish the effort success and that both customers and developers will be satisfied with the outcome.
I disagree. If you don't like something you try to change it. Put your money where your mouth is, support the vendors you believe in, and try to take back your community. You don't just sit and accept things - that's a poor attitude.
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No, I'd have a problem if I kept that in.
BTW - How would you feel if A-eon secured the right to call these Amigas?
That would be funny. What would be even funnier is if someone actually produced the original Gateway Amino contract. We might find out that Amino never OWNED the Amiga name and it was merely a nontransferable exclusive license. I wonder where that would leave Aeon and Hyperion? ;)
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I disagree. If you don't like something you try to change it. Put your money where your mouth is, support the vendors you believe in, and try to take back your community. You don't just sit and accept things - that's a poor attitude.
you perhaps missed out that im considerd the anti so4, hyperion and aeon troll around remaining amiga forums. i said things like you over and over for years and years. did it change anything? no. does it mean that i accept this? no. i have even supported aros even though being actual amiga user im not much interrested in neither x86 nor ppc hardware in this case. tbh im a little tired of this all, ive probably only jumped on this thread, because as factual amiga fan to this day i dont like to be called a "wacko" by people who cant talk me into some amiga derived system, whatever it is.
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What I'm asking is does the ARIX implementation with it's underlying Linux driver base allow it to run on any system without having to carefully select what hardware you use. I assume that's the goal.
That is one of the goals yes.
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Actually I am a business owner.
I wouldn't have guessed.
That's far more reasonable a price to pay versus paying quadruple+ the price for the oddball boards you are recommending
You might want to read again what I actually wrote. I have not been recommending any mainboards that are four times as expensive as comparable consumer mainboards. I listed one specific manufacturer that offers an unusually long product life cycle of at least 7 years which perfectly countered amikit's statement that people would be "paying to support motherboards that are discontinued within a few months of release."
I specifically said that there are many manufacturers covering a wide gamut price points.
If the goal is to minimize development work by supporting as few mainboards as possible for as long as possible, which is what Amikit hinted at, you can either port your OS to a long-term available mainboard or you can build up a relatively huge inventory of a particular consumer mainboard with a shorter product life. I have stated my preference regarding the former which was in no way an endorsement of any specific mainboard.
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That would be funny. What would be even funnier is if someone actually produced the original Gateway Amino contract. We might find out that Amino never OWNED the Amiga name and it was merely a nontransferable exclusive license. I wonder where that would leave Aeon and Hyperion? ;)
That would be hilarious!
I'd pay good money to see Herman's face when that happens. :D
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You might want to read again what I actually wrote. I have not been recommending any mainboards that are four times as expensive as comparable consumer mainboards.
Oh. Perhaps someone hacked your account:
Prices in the UK tend to be a bit higher than on the European mainland but you can definitely find much better pricing for long-term available mainboards.
Since I mentioned Kontron, here is an example:
http://www.dpieshop.com/kontron-ktq87mitx-industrial-miniitx-intel-core-i3-i5-i7-socket-lga1150-motherboard-p-1281.html (http://www.dpieshop.com/kontron-ktq87mitx-industrial-miniitx-intel-core-i3-i5-i7-socket-lga1150-motherboard-p-1281.html)
230 GBP (incl. VAT) - This price is for single unit purchases! And this is certainly not the lowest price I have seen.
If the goal is to minimize development work by supporting as few mainboards as possible for as long as possible, which is what Amikit hinted at, you can either port your OS to a long-term available mainboard or you can build up a relatively huge inventory of a particular consumer mainboard with a shorter product life. I have stated my preference regarding the former which was in no way an endorsement of any specific mainboard.
And again the former makes no sense when the price is so high. If it was $10 more? Sure. Quadruple+ the price? No.
It makes much more business sense to keep some reasonably priced boards on-hand at EOL rather than pay extremely high prices for some vertical market mainboard manufactured by a relatively unknown vendor.
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It makes much more business sense to keep some reasonably priced boards on-hand at EOL rather than pay extremely high prices for some vertical market mainboard manufactured by a relatively unknown vendor.
Kontron has been around for years. However Zotac would be preferable since they seem to have crossed over into the consumer market.
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Kontron has been around for years. However Zotac would be preferable since they seem to have crossed over into the consumer market.
Not saying they haven't been, but relative to other vendors in the top tier consumer board market they are unknown.
They are not an ideal vendor to source a motherboard from when building a consumer system for a highly cost-conscious market.
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Kontron has been around for years. However Zotac would be preferable since they seem to have crossed over into the consumer market.
Only if you are really into things that break.
Zotac reliability is horrible.
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Oh. Perhaps someone hacked your account:
Once again, you might want to read what I wrote a fourth and fifth time.
Out of curiosity, spirantho looked up prices for Kontron mainboards in his home country and shared his findings regarding the cheapest offer he could find. I found an offer for a Kontron mainboard in his country that was 80 USD cheaper and specifically mentioned that prices in the UK tend to be higher and that I have seen lower prices elsewhere.
In what strange universe does this constitute a "recommendation" for any specific mainboard?
It makes much more business sense to keep some reasonably priced boards on-hand at EOL rather than pay extremely high prices for some vertical market mainboard manufactured by a relatively unknown vendor.
For the second time, Kontron were mentioned because of the unusual 7 years long product life cycle which was in response to claims that x86 mainboards have extremely short product lifes.
If you need me to repeat it a third time, please let me know and I will gladly do so.
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That would be funny. What would be even funnier is if someone actually produced the original Gateway Amino contract. We might find out that Amino never OWNED the Amiga name and it was merely a nontransferable exclusive license. I wonder where that would leave Aeon and Hyperion? ;)
Something like that may very well have been used by Hyperion to secure its settlement with Amiga Inc.
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you perhaps missed out that im considerd the anti so4, hyperion and aeon troll around remaining amiga forums. i said things like you over and over for years and years. did it change anything? no. does it mean that i accept this? no. i have even supported aros even though being actual amiga user im not much interrested in neither x86 nor ppc hardware in this case. tbh im a little tired of this all, ive probably only jumped on this thread, because as factual amiga fan to this day i dont like to be called a "wacko" by people who cant talk me into some amiga derived system, whatever it is.
Nobody said that was the reason you're a wacko.:destroy:
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x1000 is not expensive, other hardware is just too cheap. If you convert hw prices from 80s i guess the value is about the same....
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Once again, you might want to read what I wrote a fourth and fifth time.
Out of curiosity, spirantho looked up prices for Kontron mainboards in his home country and shared his findings regarding the cheapest offer he could find. I found an offer for a Kontron mainboard in his country that was 80 USD cheaper and specifically mentioned that prices in the UK tend to be higher and that I have seen lower prices elsewhere.
In what strange universe does this constitute a "recommendation" for any specific mainboard?
For the second time, Kontron were mentioned because of the unusual 7 years long product life cycle which was in response to claims that x86 mainboards have extremely short product lifes.
If you need me to repeat it a third time, please let me know and I will gladly do so.
Are you a politician by chance?
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Are you a politician by chance?
Worse, he is a moderator.
And a blue one at that.
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Nice but 10+ years too late. My phone is faster than this garbage they are selling and 5+ times the price of kickass modern hardware.
Just an observation... BUT
Look on ebay for xenon workstations. You can get a dual cpu 4 core xenon
workstation used for 5x cheaper than this things price.
Just saying... 8 cores and 8 gigs of ram for the so much less than the price of this.
Amiga grave robbers take notice.
Back in the day, I could get a used 25mhz 486 sx for the price of a new amiga 500 which in comparison was underpowered but not really. Why? Because the amiga 500 at 8mhz could outperform that 486 25mhz machine as far as graphics, sound and more were concerned...
Not so today...
The current offerings can not stay the same, so underpowered and a 10 + year behind os means you can not justify the difference in price.
They need to offer some kind of value or reason to justify the lack in power
and capabilities for the price. So far, total failure at that. Amiga os4.x is a
total joke. If they had cheap hardware like the raspberry pi maybe it would
be okay but otherwise hell no to this slow one core joke where the only good software is linux ports I can already run for free on x86.
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How can ppl comment on the price and performance, since the final price has not been set yet?
And performance, well for obvious reasons, there have been no benchmarks yet.
And why this need to constantly hammer amiga os4 and the hardware for it?
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Look on ebay for xenon workstations. You can get a dual cpu 4 core xenon
workstation used for 5x cheaper than this things price.
Xenon cpu????
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How can ppl comment on the price and performance, since the final price has not been set yet?
Trevor has already hinted that the price of the X5000 will not be significantly cheaper than X1000.
And performance, well for obvious reasons, there have been no benchmarks yet.
Freescale performance figures are available for these CPUs.
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I read a lot of comments here with the phrases they need to do this or they need to do that. They dont need to do anything, they can do whatever they want and make whatever hw they want and sell at any price they want. Dont like it ? Dont buy it...
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And the funny part is that many of the loudest complainers, are mos and aros fanboys. Who will never get os4.
And even more funny is that some of the loudest AmigaOS fanboys are not even owning it
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LOL :-)
good explanation
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Are you a politician by chance?
As I understand it Andre only mentioned the board because it long in production in opposite to what people claim about X86/X64 boards. Some even say ARM or X86/x64 custom hardware would be as expensive as custom PPC hardware. That might be but who on earth would even think about building custom hardware when there are plenty of choices available.
So (in short) Andre mentioned it because of the long period it is available and not because it is the best choice on market.
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Look at this
http://www.fanlesstech.com/2014/01/60-bay-trail-d-motherboard-shipping.html
And a quad-core version will be available for 70$! Awesome!
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Well for US$ 60 it better be faster than the X1000.
Look at this
http://www.fanlesstech.com/2014/01/60-bay-trail-d-motherboard-shipping.html
And a quad-core version will be available for 70$! Awesome!
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Well for US$ 60 it better be faster than the X1000.
it is :biglaugh:
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...
Look on ebay for xenon workstations. You can get a dual cpu 4 core xenon
workstation used for 5x cheaper than this things price.
.
Muchos gracias haywirepc for bringing this to my intention. I can't believe it didn't occur to me sooner, mainly because I've been buying used multicore Xeon servers for extremely low prices for my CloudStack farm e.g. HP Proliant DL380 G5 2 x Quad Core Xeon @ 2.66 GHz (total 16 threads) with 32 GB RAM, SAS drives and so on, for around A$500.00
The beauty of of cloud infrastructure platforms like OpenStack and CloudStack is that you don't need the redundant power supplies and RAID controllers so these workstations are a perfect fit.
Amiga Community 1 - Hardware Vendors 0
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Nobody said that was the reason you're a wacko.:destroy:
:facepalm:
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:facepalm:
Sorry (sort of) I couldn't resist.
Besides, we are taking this entirely too seriously.
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Look at this
http://www.fanlesstech.com/2014/01/60-bay-trail-d-motherboard-shipping.html
And a quad-core version will be available for 70$! Awesome!
A. No one has this.
B. Its a dual core.
C. Even this version costs as much as you are quoting (I don't see a quad core version).
D. Compared to other X64 hardware, it is slow.
E. It doesn't run OS4.
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A. No one has this.
B. Its a dual core.
C. Even this version costs as much as you are quoting (I don't see a quad core version).
D. Compared to other X64 hardware, it is slow.
E. It doesn't run OS4.
No one has an X5000 either.
There's a quad-core version option for $10 more.
A total of $70.
It's slower than other hardware, but it's not a total dog, being Bay Trail based.
But yes, it doesn't run OS4, and is therefore useless if that's what you want. :-)
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I've often thought that should Hyperion release OS4 for QEMU they'd sell quite a good few more licences.
It'd probably run faster on an i7 emulated than it does on an X1000, most certainly faster than a SAM.
Same goes for MorphOS before the church goers get their knickers in a twist.
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A. No one has this.
B. Its a dual core.
C. Even this version costs as much as you are quoting (I don't see a quad core version).
D. Compared to other X64 hardware, it is slow.
E. It doesn't run OS4.
it's just an indication of how ridiculously underpowered and overpriced this custom PPC hardware is in 2013.
BTW, a quad core atom Z3770 is faster than a quad PPC970MP system at 2.5 GHz. So it is not slow, especially for 70 $
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So why don't you stick with x86, AROS or WinUAE?
Let the rest of us enjoy good news about new hardware.
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So why don't you stick with x86, AROS or WinUAE?
Let the rest of us enjoy good news about new hardware.
Perhaps it's because he's a potential customer and customer feedback is always good.
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Yes feedback is good, but when its unconstrutive like "I want a 70$ mobo with cpu" then it can't really be considered feedback.
Besides I hardly beleive that those who want a 70$ puter are potential customers, but I might be wrong.
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I'm not a potential customer.
I might have been 3,4 years ago, but the glacial speed of development of OS4, incomplete drivers and ridiculous hardware spec and prices have completely ruled that out.
In theory, I would have nothing against a nice OS4 machine, but it's price would have to reflect the fact that OS is archaic.
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Yes feedback is good, but when its unconstrutive like "I want a 70$ mobo with cpu" then it can't really be considered feedback.
Besides I hardly beleive that those who want a 70$ puter are potential customers, but I might be wrong.
I personally would love to run OS4 on Intel hardware. Emulated or native tbh.
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I'm not a potential customer.
I might have been 3,4 years ago, but the glacial speed of development of OS4, incomplete drivers and ridiculous hardware spec and prices have completely ruled that out.
In theory, I would have nothing against a nice OS4 machine, but it's price would have to reflect the fact that OS is archaic.
Well the question begs to be asked, why on earth do you visit Amiga sites and comment on threads regarding PPC hardware?
We all know it's a dead architecture and most of us would run OS4 or MOS on Intel hardware if it were possible (The latter being likely in the future) so other than "I'd buy your OS if you ported it to AMD64 ISA" what's the point in stating the obvious (That such hardware is faster and cheaper)?
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it's just an indication of how ridiculously underpowered and overpriced this custom PPC hardware is in 2013.
BTW, a quad core atom Z3770 is faster than a quad PPC970MP system at 2.5 GHz. So it is not slow, especially for 70 $
Nope, not even close.
And my G5 cost me $100.
So, for that I might get ARM.
Not X64.
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Nope, not even close.
And my G5 cost me $100.
So, for that I might get ARM.
Not X64.
http://www.7-cpu.com/
Pretty close... and that's Bay-Trail T , this board features a slightly faster Bay-Trail D SoC.
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http://www.7-cpu.com/
Pretty close... and that's Bay-Trail T , this board features a slightly faster Bay-Trail D SoC.
Looks surprisingly close.
The real surprise is the C2750.
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I'm not a potential customer.
I might have been 3,4 years ago, but the glacial speed of development of OS4, incomplete drivers and ridiculous hardware spec and prices have completely ruled that out.
In theory, I would have nothing against a nice OS4 machine, but it's price would have to reflect the fact that OS is archaic.
If I could buy a system for $300 based around a cheap x86 (such as this $70 mobo+cpu), HD (+$50), RAM (+$40), case (+$50), OS4 license (?), etc, then I might stick the oar back in.
Or even something like the ODROID U2.
x86 and ARM are cheap. PowerPC is expensive. Continuing to bark up the PowerPC tree is just marginalising the existing users, and limiting the potential market. If OS5 ever comes out as a new system with SMP and MP and all the other things it should have (i.e., running OS4 compatible apps in a sandbox because they wouldn't work), then it should use that opportunity to lose CPU architecture dependencies.
Yes, I know this won't fix support for all the other components on commodity motherboards, only very specific combinations of hardware would work (in the x86 realm) or specific boards (in the ARM realm). But they could be made for a fraction of the price.
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If I could buy a system for $300 based around a cheap x86 (such as this $70 mobo+cpu), HD (+$50), RAM (+$40), case (+$50), OS4 license (?), etc, then I might stick the oar back in.
Or even something like the ODROID U2.
x86 and ARM are cheap. PowerPC is expensive. Continuing to bark up the PowerPC tree is just marginalising the existing users, and limiting the potential market. If OS5 ever comes out as a new system with SMP and MP and all the other things it should have (i.e., running OS4 compatible apps in a sandbox because they wouldn't work), then it should use that opportunity to lose CPU architecture dependencies.
Yes, I know this won't fix support for all the other components on commodity motherboards, only very specific combinations of hardware would work (in the x86 realm) or specific boards (in the ARM realm). But they could be made for a fraction of the price.
They're committed to the PowerPC now, Trevor/Amigakit have invested far too much money into PPC hardware for any x86 or ARM ports to be possible. The point of no return has been passed long ago.
I agree with you... money spent on hardware would have been much better spent(from my perspective, at least) getting OS4 ported to another ISA + bringing more SW on the platform. But it's too late now.
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They're committed to the PowerPC now, Trevor/Amigakit have invested far too much money into PPC hardware for any x86 or ARM ports to be possible. The point of no return has been passed long ago.
I agree with you... money spent on hardware would have been much better spent(from my perspective, at least) getting OS4 ported to another ISA + bringing more SW on the platform. But it's too late now.
What you are forgetting is that OS4 belongs to neither Trevor nor AmigaKit.
If Hyperion one day decide to port OS4 to Intel hardware there is pretty much bugger all Trevor or AmigaKit can do except complain.
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What you are forgetting is that OS4 belongs to neither Trevor nor AmigaKit.
If Hyperion one day decide to port OS4 to Intel hardware there is pretty much bugger all Trevor or AmigaKit can do except complain.
Hermans was one of the original partners in A-eon that invested in X1000. I guess that there is no firm mechanism for trevor or Amigakit that could stop Hyperion from porting OS4 to x86, however without Trevor I very much doubt that Hyperion would have the money to do such a port.
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Hermans was one of the original partners in A-eon that invested in X1000. I guess that there is no firm mechanism for trevor or Amigakit that could stop Hyperion from porting OS4 to x86, however without Trevor I very much doubt that Hyperion would have the money to do such a port.
True, but as I understand it there is no love lost between Hermans and Trevor so however slim the chance of an Intel port it's still a chance.
There's more chance of the Pope becoming a Hindu though. ;)
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True, but as I understand it there is no love lost between Hermans and Trevor so however slim the chance of an Intel port it's still a chance.
There's more chance of the Pope becoming a Hindu though. ;)
Well, Trevor should then hope to recoup his investments before that happens.
There might be a contingency plan for supporting MOS, if MOS is still developed for PPC by that time.
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Well, Trevor should then hope to recoup his investments before that happens.
There might be a contingency plan for supporting MOS, if MOS is still developed for PPC by that time.
MOS is clearly the better solution so they'd be crazy not to fund its development for the X5000.
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MOS is clearly the better solution so they'd be crazy not to fund its development for the X5000.
yeah, but what incentive would a MOS user have to pay 3000$ for X5000 when G5 Macs are available for more than 10 times less? Doesn't compute...
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yeah, but what incentive would a MOS user have to pay 3000$ for X5000 when G5 Macs are available for more than 10 times less? Doesn't compute...
Some people would just prefer to have new hardware and some of the supplementary features that come along with it vs. old G5 hardware.
That being said, at that price differential it wouldn't make a lot of sense.
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yeah, but what incentive would a MOS user have to pay 3000$ for X5000 when G5 Macs are available for more than 10 times less? Doesn't compute...
The only benefit I can see to the MOS team is that certain vocal OS4 evangelists will no longer have the "no new hardware with warranty" stick to beat them with.
I'd rather use second hand hardware and buy a replacement when it fails until/if MOS gets ported to Intel than pay "remortgage the house" prices for new PPC hardware, but that's just me.
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Some people would just prefer to have new hardware and some of the supplementary features that come along with it vs. old G5 hardware.
That being said, at that price differential it wouldn't make a lot of sense.
well, I'm not sure some of those features will ever be supported. And later G5s are just as fast as P50X0, plus they have Altivec, which the P series chips lack completely.
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well, I'm not sure some of those features will ever be supported. And later G5s are just as fast as P50X0, plus they have Altivec, which the P series chips lack completely.
Completely for now.
Later revision of the core they are based on will have these instructions, so successors to this chip will feature AltiVec instructions.
And the P50XX is a much cooler running, lower power draw chip.
That being said, I have two G5s.
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The only benefit I can see to the MOS team is that certain vocal OS4 evangelists will no longer have the "no new hardware with warranty" stick to beat them with.
Stick bearers will just find another. If MorphOS is released on Sam and AmigaONE X1000 etc then it's fairly obvious that the new stick will be "MorphOS doesn't have it's own hardware so have to use ours".
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Stick bearers will just find another. If MorphOS is released on Sam and AmigaONE X1000 etc then it's fairly obvious that the new stick will be "MorphOS doesn't have it's own hardware so have to use ours".
True, though it would be quite comical if the X5000 was released with MorphOS first. ;)
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True, though it would be quite comical if the X5000 was released with MorphOS first. ;)
I am pretty sure support for the X5000 (under OS4) will be ready at its release.
And it would not do to get your hopes up about MorphOS, as the developers already have their hands full.
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by the way, as there is always so much talk about how retarded genuine amiga users are, and how they should upgrade to ng solutions, and also countless guesses about what camp has most followers (judging by download figures of whatever), it just occurred to me today checking aminet that there is an obvious and objective indication to that.
so check out these download figures of fresh release of amiarcadia (by 11.01.2014):
AmiArcadia.lha 22.24 misc/emu 23981 3.6M m68k-amigaos
AmiArcadiaMOS.lha 22.24 misc/emu 18820 3.9M ppc-morphos
AmiArcadia_OS4.lha 22.24 misc/emu 12302 3.9M ppc-amigaos
given that mos and os4 have stil their own download depots the figures there do not seem to account for much (ive checked out of curiosity, there seem to be just a few). so i think we can safely say that the biggest amiga community is still the genuine amiga owners (or uae users) followed by mos (80% in comparison, which is not bad) and os4 being third, accounting for about a half of genuine amiga users. there is no aros (x86) figures in this case alas, though i consider it possible that it would be even lower than the os4 result.
q.e.d.
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Really?
I thought the commonly accepted stereotypes were:
OS4 users - Naive lamers
MorphOS users - Elitist snobs
AROS users - Tight fisted and cheap
Amiga users - Any of the above
;)
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what concerns aros i think the stereotype is rather DIY and dont pay a cent.
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by the way, as there is always so much talk about how retarded genuine amiga users are, and how they should upgrade to ng solutions, and also countless guesses about what camp has most followers (judging by download figures of whatever), it just occurred to me today checking aminet that there is an obvious and objective indication to that.
Then you've got the percentage of people who don't know or care what "AmiArcadia" is, LOL. ;)
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what concerns aros i think the stereotype is rather DIY and dont pay a cent.
In plain English, "Cheap". :lol:
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by the way, as there is always so much talk about how retarded genuine amiga users are, and how they should upgrade to ng solutions, and also countless guesses about what camp has most followers (judging by download figures of whatever), it just occurred to me today checking aminet that there is an obvious and objective indication to that.
so check out these download figures of fresh release of amiarcadia (by 11.01.2014):
AmiArcadia.lha 22.24 misc/emu 23981 3.6M m68k-amigaos
AmiArcadiaMOS.lha 22.24 misc/emu 18820 3.9M ppc-morphos
AmiArcadia_OS4.lha 22.24 misc/emu 12302 3.9M ppc-amigaos
given that mos and os4 have stil their own download depots the figures there do not seem to account for much (ive checked out of curiosity, there seem to be just a few). so i think we can safely say that the biggest amiga community is still the genuine amiga owners (or uae users) followed by mos (80% in comparison, which is not bad) and os4 being third, accounting for about a half of genuine amiga users. there is no aros (x86) figures in this case alas, though i consider it possible that it would be even lower than the os4 result.
q.e.d.
You can't really draw a conclusion based on a single piece of software. I for example have never felt compelled to download Amiarcadia since it didn't appeal to me.
You really need to find a number of pieces of software available for all systems and get the averages across those pieces of software. The more pieces of software the better.
Also since you pointed out that OS4 and MorphOS have their own repositories you really should be pulling the stats off those and adding them to the Aminet stats too. I usually download OS4 software from OS4 depot.
The only times I remember going to Aminet in the past foew years is to actually provide link to a piece of 68k software for someone asking on the forums if there's a piece of software for the A500, A1200 etc that does X.
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You can't really draw a conclusion based on a single piece of software. I for example have never felt compelled to download Amiarcadia since it didn't appeal to me.
neither to me. since this is the same piece of software for all these systems one can assume the interest distribution may be similar across their userbase though, figures? of course there may be some minor factors that influence this, like lack of own software that pushes customers for use of emulators (on genuine amiga there might not be much interest) or lacking system capabilities (the requirement is os3.5 and 16meg ram, which rules each an every unexpanded amiga right out) so in fact the amiga scene will be magnitudes bigger, in fact we are only talking here of expanded amiga power users.
You really need to find a number of pieces of software available for all systems and get the averages across those pieces of software. The more pieces of software the better.
i dont care so much to intentionally look for it, its only a quick observation, that fits each and every other hint i came across over the years. why should i assume the opposite of the hard facts?
Also since you pointed out that OS4 and MorphOS have their own repositories you really should be pulling the stats off those and adding them to the Aminet stats too. I usually download OS4 software from OS4 depot.
os4 depot: 12 downloads. i assume it concerns only the current version, still it doesnt mean anything in comparison with several thousands. does it?
morphos files: 76 downloads. much, much more, still only few. do i have a point or do i have a point?
The only times I remember going to Aminet in the past foew years is to actually provide link to a piece of 68k software for someone asking on the forums if there's a piece of software for the A500, A1200 etc that does X.
sure. same for me. likely the most visitors are uploaders themselves. ;=)
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AmiArcadia is a bad example.... at first AmigaOS 4 versions were included in the AmigaOS 3 archive. Then there was a long period of time when the AmigaOS 4 version wasn't updated but the MorphOS version was. There was also time when the opposite happened, as the AOS 3 version was the master version at first, and it was up to other people to port it to MOS and AOS - which happened at different frequencies.
I'm not saying that AOS4 has a much bigger userbase than MOS - I don't know if that's true or not - but I do know that you can't take one piece of software and if you had to do that, it should be a piece of software that was developed at the same pace on each OS.
Isn't this rather OT anyway?
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Has there ever been a thread on Amiga.org that stayed ontopic? lol
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Yes - lots of them.
None that have any replies in them though. :)
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Yes - lots of them.
None that have any replies in them though. :)
:D