Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Lo on September 09, 2003, 02:26:36 AM
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hmm, this ann.lu link appeared on one of the Amithlon mailing lists. Bill fled court, is not healthy, etc.
Tig and gary_c are posting to it, and I have always respected their opinions.
AInc. not well (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1062986091&category=forum&start=1&165) :-?
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Well. That document R.Woods has published (check link from moobunny)
seems to fit with most of the things I have been hearing during last
year or so. Can't be 100% sure of it's authenticity but I can't
remeber Amigainc been declaring this (or older copies of counrt
records he's been putting to his website) being fake.
Edit..
http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/90774.shtml
(sorry.. those javasript thingys on this site don't work on Voyager so
no directly clickable link..)
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Download the court documents and see for yourself. They make an interesting read.
Bill admits Amiga is insolvent. They have $100 in their bank account but debts of $2.2 million. They haven't paid their staff for over a year and haven't filed taxes since 2000. They have no revenue but are delaying declaring bankruptcy in the hope that they will find new investors.
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WOW..the first I've seen of this... heard of it yes... looks real to me.
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This is some of the most depressing reading I've stumbled across yet. Maybe one last hope for AInc. to make a few bucks is selling the movie rights to their downfall, ala Deathbed Vigil. Would be nice to step in the future a few years and see what really was the truth behind all this foolishness.
Mike
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JoannaK : That document R.Woods has published (check link from moobunny) seems to fit with most of the things I have been hearing during last year or so. Can't be 100% sure of it's authenticity but I can't remeber Amigainc been declaring this (or older copies of counrt records he's been putting to his website) being fake
JoanneK, it's a lot easier to contest any doofus's claims those are not authentic legal documents and transcripts than it is to prove over the internet that the Garry "Gary WHO? - oh, you mean THAT Garry" Hare business card was NOT a photoshop chop. It'd take someone pretty dumb indeed to go out on such a limb over these papers (not that it didn't require a certain foolishness to say the Garry Hare card scan was a fake).
...One would note that Garry Hare was mentioned in this last pdf within the pages that are already of public record.
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The real question should be......
Does anyone really care anymore?
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@Lo
It's real.
Good or bad, it's real.
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This really is sad news in a long list of sad news but it's nothing we weren't aware of being a possibility for a while now. I just hope it can have a happy ending somehow. Lets hope for happy days for all Amigans. :-)
Who knows maybe there could be some mysterious backer to bail em out and all will turn out for the better in the end.
Cheer up ! it ain't the end of the world .
Yet ...
:-)
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I will say one thing, I was in the Seattle area in July this year.. Maybe I was there on the wrong day, or they were in Europe somewhere hanging out with Medhi Ali or something ;-)
However my impression after trying to contact the snoqualmi office (I wanted a tour and would have paid for it . Hey! that would bring in some money at least!) was "the lights were on but no one was home".
An old Atari/Amiga guy (who was there for the same games dev conference I was) told me they bought the whole thing for 10 cents on the dollar and they were attempting to try to find a BUYER for the Amiga Tech reminants who would keep it alive.
Who knows how true this is, but it's wid speculation to me, but he does live in Bill Gates back yard and he's definitely aware of any regional wheelings and dealings that might be going on.
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I will say one thing, I was in the Seattle area in July this year.. Maybe I was there on the wrong day, or they were in Europe somewhere hanging out with Medhi Ali or something
ROTFL!! :-D :-D :-D
Is that where Medhi Ali is these days? Any idea what company he's running into the ground now, or does he still pal around with the rest of the good 'ole boys, flying around on the Commodore jet?
edit: Did you say July of this year? So two months ago? I'd thought their offices long cleared out by then...
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Yep, it was LAST July ("between may and july" -Bill McEwen) that employees stopped getting paid, and it was last year they were forced from their offices...
Now that we know when the employees wern't getting paid, we know that the CAM crap happened during a time when they had no money. They had already stopped paing employees.
It's very clear now that they were quite literally "Gambling" with money customers sent them. They only intended to fullfill their commitments *IF* they gambled and won. At least with an illegal financial pyramid scheme you know you're at risk... Amiga never disclosed the fact they would be spending the customers money on other things while waiting to get "lucky" to fullfill those obligations.
That's really slimey. I sympathise with their position before the CAM issue, but they really pulled a fast one on everyone who trusted them.
I wonder if I put an ad on the net claiming I'll sell a generic coupon for $50, and the cost is $50 up front, and then went to Las Vegas instead of sending the coupons, hoping to come out ahead, if I'd be criminally charged if I lost the money? "But your honor, I fully intended to honor the coupons if I won!"
Disgracefull. :-(
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I'm with Desmon. I check out Amiga spinoffs (like MorphOS) now and then out of curiosity, but there's no way in hell I'd buy anything from Amiga Inc. I lost all faith in them when I bought the SDK, and found it was filled with little more than Intent and java applets.
Besides, I'll never buy anything that doesn't work on PC components. It's the OS, not the hardware, that gets on my nerves. Next to my P4 2.6c, Amiga One looks like a real dog, and at more than three times the cost. Who DIDN'T see this coming?
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Lo wrote:
hmm, this ann.lu link appeared on one of the Amithlon mailing lists. Bill fled court, is not healthy, etc.
Tig and gary_c are posting to it, and I have always respected their opinions.
Lo,
Its completely true, lots of interesting information in the court case, proof for all the naysayers that the things that Bolten, myself and others have been saying about them not paying anyone for over a year, hugely in debt, no offices etc. Court case goes to the judge on September 19th according to my read of the documents, though Rich thinks Oct 3rd (which was the original date) . I was thoroughly disgusted to find out that apparently Bill, Barry (Fleecy) and Randy had sweethearted themselves 500k+ salaries, I think that may well explain why the company had money trouble, and I think their VC guys are really going to be interested in those numbers when this all shakes out. I mean according to McEwens deposition, over a year of back salaries for over a dozen people plus other debts they currently have is less then the year or so of back salary they owe Fleecy, the equally large number they owe Randy and only about 1/2 as much as they owe Bill in back salary. Now my guess is that Bills number is wrong and they owe more then 2.2 million. Since if we deduct known debts (Bolten, Matt, etc) from the 400K or so Bill says they have as debt to the non big 3, and then divide that by who Bill says are still working for them, we get less then 30K each for over 1 year of work. That sounds unlikely given we have yet to see the salary of an Amiga Inc employee that makes less then 30K annually.
-Tig
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:-( That's all I have to say for the moment, " :-( ".
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edit: Like I said somewhere, Amiga doesn't know the difference between an "investor", who's investment can be risked, from a "customer", who's money is taken in exchange for product or service, without being exposed to "risk." It's quite clear from what we know now, that they fully intended the customers money to be gambled and exposed to risk.
They do not deserve anyones business. At least the INVESTORS *KNOW* about the risk, there's simply NOT ONE excuse for exposing CUSTOMERS money to this risk, under the guise of normal sales.
If it's a risk, it should be disclosed beforehand as an "investment". Anything else is FRAUD. :-x
The more I hear about the specifics, the madder I get. I should just stop reading about them once and for all. :-(
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I started reading that pdf file that's linked to from that page. Can anyone tell me if pages 7-36 conatin anytthing else besides just the court papers filed (allegedly) by Thendic's lawyers? I guess I could just keep reading. Are there any Amiga documents, or just the Thendic stuff? Are we being fed one sided info (or "info")?
And, I'd like to add that maybe Thendic (if the documents in this pdf are not fake) should get a lawyer who can spell correctly all the time.
on page 6 "... and there testify in the above captioned mater."
I was wondering whose mother was being captioned. :-P
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@Weirdami
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1062986091&category=forum&number=155#comment
I advise to read the whole thread to understand better.
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>And, I'd like to add that maybe Thendic (if the documents in this pdf are not fake) should get a lawyer who can spell correctly all the time.
Says the guy who types a small post with "Can anyone tell me if pages 7-36 conatin anytthing" near the top - LOL ; } ...This guy's had to type thousands of pages of legal docs and he misses a "t" once in awhile. Oh well. I know the feeling; I'm crap at tpynig...
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Yes its a Thendic deposition, and not a judges opinion or ruling.
During the cross examination, the Thendic ambulance chaser ( I hate lawyers ) tried to establish three things only:
1. What income, if any, Amiga Inc had and the details of said business contracts.
2. That Bill McEwan was an unreliable witness not to be trusted through establishing debt, previous lost court cases, and questioning the health claims.
3. That Amiga Inc's counter claim and counter sue items were capped by the amount of income passed from Thendic to Amiga Inc.
So, nothing intensive to do with the facts of the case, whether or not Amiga Inc broke contract or whether or not Thendic fulfilled its part of it.
The fact that he spent so much time on (3) suggests he is actually concerned that a counterclaim/sue might succeed and wants to limit the damages by getting Bill McEwan to agree that the damages in general are limited.
I learned two things from this, (1) That Amiga Incs employees are working on a voluntary basis and (2) The Thendic case is weak enough for their legal representative to try all these diversionary tactics as point (3) is the most telling. I would have expected more of an attempt to say "do you agree that the Pegasos is a device covered under section xx.x ?" to establish the strength of the case against the defendant.
Given one can get that from the Thendic side, I wonder what will come out when Amiga Inc cross examines Genesi personnel. Either or, lets hope that photocopies appear undedited on Rich's site.
Oh and Thendics ambulance chaser cannot spell.
I actually came out admiring Bill McEwans articulate and witty responses. Although I am amazed that he signed a contract that basically said that Thendic could do what it liked risk free ( not that it COULD do what it liked, but if it did it then it wouldn't cost them anything ).
What did happen to the SmartBoy and Thendics Wince license?
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@hooligan
You mean I gotta read an annlu thread? :cry:
Anyhoo, thanks. I was gonna ask why there's lots of missing depo pages. Now I ain't gotta.
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I agree, thats being a little harsh. At the end of the day, we all make smelling pistakes once in a while.
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With that frequence? What about the fact that
he spells his previous clients' name wrong also.
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Another oh-so-subtle red pundit bites the dust with "Oh and Thendics ambulance chaser cannot spell." Possessive mit der aphotoproste, ya? ... BTW, several occurence of 'McEwan' suggest we could all use some basic pattern recog and spelling spankings from Mavis ; }
McEwen. I think the 'ambulance chaser' got that one right.
Maybe Amiga Inc's case will be that Thendic's lawyer doesn't spell or type well or something. Wow, that's a real strong argument ; }
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@greenboy
Dave, darling! How wonderful of you to join us!
I cannot spell, absolutely, however I am writing software and not legal documents.
"red pundit", lol, not averse to oversimplifying the argument to attempt to discredit are you Mr "blue pundit". However, you are more than just a pundit, you are a fully paid up hardcore "blue member" ;-)
Woooo where did that get us? Nowhere.
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Well, they did almost bugger all for the Amiga community. Spending time and money on a basically rebadged TAO, while leaving an OS that would be perfect for handhelds to rot for months. The only good thing they ever did was allow someone else to continue with the OS development. I hope when they fold, Hyperion get the rights to the Amiga. They've done more actual work in keeping the Amiga alive than Amiga inc ever did.
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> The fact that he spent so much time on (3) suggests he is
> actually concerned that a counterclaim/sue might succeed
> and wants to limit the damages by getting Bill McEwan to
> agree that the damages in general are limited.
Actually I got the impression he spent alot of time on (3) because it was a circular arguement.
Of course the lawyer is going to address the countersuit, he wouldn't be much of a lawyer if he didn't.
The only fear I sensed in that round was in Bill, ####ting his pants at the clause being read to him. If Bill had good reason to believe Amiga DID have reason to ask for money, shouldn't that reason been the answer to the question, rather than his "Yes, er, well, no, I mean, maybe, you never know, anything can happen in court" answer?
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@Weirdami
You mean I gotta read an annlu thread?
Anyhoo, thanks. I was gonna ask why there's lots of missing depo pages. Now I ain't gotta.
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... and why is that? The thread is actually quite entertaining and keeps you busy and smiling for a few minutes.
My lord, also reveals the secret of "lost pages"
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T_Bone wrote:
> The fact that he spent so much time on (3) suggests he is
> actually concerned that a counterclaim/sue might succeed
> and wants to limit the damages by getting Bill McEwan to
> agree that the damages in general are limited.
Actually I got the impression he spent alot of time on (3) because it was a circular arguement.
That is true, it went around in circles. However what was far from established was that even if that clause was held to be valid in court, in this case, was its relevance to courtersue.
Of course the lawyer is going to address the countersuit, he wouldn't be much of a lawyer if he didn't.
Im not arguing that, it is the sheer proportion of time spent on side issues versus the actual issues of the case. Read the Thendic ambulance-chasers' summary - he is trying to establish Bill McEwEn as an unreliable witness and Amiga Inc as a renegade company but does not spend any useful ink on the true subject of the case - whether the claims of Thendic are even valid.
The only fear I sensed in that round was in Bill,
Who was talking about fear? You are the one who brought this one up, I don't think fear is a good thing to read into anything. I think Bill McEwEn was deliberately avoiding answering the question.
If Bill had good reason to believe Amiga DID have reason to ask for money, shouldn't that reason been the answer to the question, rather than his "Yes, er, well, no, I mean, maybe, you never know, anything can happen in court" answer?
Depends on what he was trying to achieve with the answer. The Thendic A-C seemed to be trying to close down the possibility of damages, this was clearly not in the interest of the Amiga Inc side, therefore an ambivalent answer which basically points to the court as being the responsibility to decide that is whilst evasive, accurate.
Nowhere in discovery does it come out that Amiga Inc do not have reasonable grounds to countersue, what does come out is that clause that means that if they succeed, they have to fight the clause that sayes they are owed no money ( because Thendic paid no royalties ) to *GET* money.
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@greenboy, Dave, darling! How wonderful of you to join us!
There is no us - there is only you and your overinflated boing ball : } I've never tried to hide my affiliation or pretended to be impartial. I'm partial as hell, seeing what I've seen. I've never pretended behind the guises of objectivity, logic, and other conceits. Though I'm usually trying a lot harder to be polite.
Oh, I can just hear McEwen saying in a talk show host voice, "FOURRRTEEEEN BILLION DOLLARS!" Ho! - that must really wow those small-town legal people... Too bad the case isn't in Montana, with Doctor in attendance to give Teach the note for why little William MC was skipping school yet again.
Should be an interesting case. Sometimes almost on schedule and rockin' - if only because someone has to bring SOME of the people in on the correct dates occasionally to actually achieve any semblance of a schedule ; }
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greenboy wrote:
@greenboy, Dave, darling! How wonderful of you to join us!
There is no us - there is only you and your overinflated boing ball : }
No I am saying that his is what you SHOULD be saying to me. Probably wasnt clear.
is only you and your overinflated boing ball : }
And was that supposed to be an insult? :-?
I've never tried to hide my affiliation or pretended to be impartial. I'm partial as hell, seeing what I've seen. I've never pretended behind the guises of objectivity, logic, and other conceits. Though I'm usually trying a lot harder to be polite.
That is nice to see. However exactly what did you hope to gain with that labelling exercise is my point? Why not deal with the thrust of the argument rather than say "red pundit"?
Oh, I can just hear McEwen saying in a talk show host voice, "FOURRRTEEEEN BILLION DOLLARS!" Ho! - that must really wow those small-town legal people...
That WAS amusing. Did you ever see the cover of the Linux Format mag with the SCO guy being sent up with a picture of Dr Evil?
Too bad the case isn't in Montana, with Doctor in attendance to give Teach the note for why little William MC was skipping school yet again.
Now come on, you know that by this time Bill McEwEn was wise to the antics of Rich Woods and didn't want to disclose personal information. Although I agree, his answers were woolly and evasive there. Given that Rich Woods posted this little lot on the net suggests he was right not to put extraneous evidence where he did not have to.
Should be an interesting case.
Yep.
Sometimes almost on schedule and rockin'
Snore!
- if only because someone has to bring SOME of the people in on the correct dates occasionally to actually achieve any semblance of a schedule ; }
SNORE!
BTW I hear the Peg2 is now due out in October. See how relevant that was? Not at all.
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> Who was talking about fear?
You, but you called it "Concern." :-D I prefer to describe emotion in it's primal form. "Afraid", "Concerned", makes little difference. In this context it's the same thing.
> You are the one who brought this one up, I don't think fear is
> a good thing to read into anything.
Well, that goes for "Concern" too. It's quite possible that a signed agreement capping damages, is relevant when being countersued for damages. Hell, I would have danced on it too. What better defence for liability is there, than a signed document relinquishing liability?
> I think Bill McEwEn was deliberately avoiding answering
> the question.
Obviously, his countersuit wouldn't make much sense if he had answered "Yes. Thendics liability is capped at $0, according to our contract"
That doesn't mean that Thendic believes they'll lose the case or is afraid/concerned... the countersuit isn't mutually exclusive to the suit. It's not impossible for both the suit and the countersuit to be found valid, and even win, indipendantly of each other.
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@T_bone
Concern is not as stark emotion as fear, it has 4 meanings all of which were relevant to the context in which I used it.
Of course your final paragraph is also valid, I just felt that rather than discover what Amiga Incs position was they rather focussed on side issues. I did Jury service, and in two times the defense lawyer danced around issues to discredit prosecution witnesses and in both cases the Jury were suspicious as to the strength of the defence case. On the third time this didn't happen, and the defence A-C actually tackled the merits of the evidence and the crux of the case - and won.
Still, thats just my pitiful experience, but the way I read it and interpreted is in my first post on this thread and my first post in a while on a forum topic on Amiga.org.
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>>if only because someone has to bring SOME of the people in on the correct dates occasionally to actually achieve any semblance of a schedule ; }
>SNORE! BTW I hear the Peg2 is now due out in October.
Actually at the end of September. Same as it always was. I wonder if there will be any slippage. Shouldn't be much, if any. But if there is, I'm sure it won't be over a year, or anything like that : }
>See how relevant that was? Not at all.
Maybe you haven't heard about the number of times McEwen has NOT shown up on scheduled dates. Later a story arrives. A pattern here... relevant to me, if to no-one else. I especially found the AmiWest one laughable, since he knew he had a legal appearance to make in Seatown on the same weekend as the promised AmiWest Sacremento one. I'd already heard a previous show's "flat tire."
Many of us supposed he would make neither. Wasn't much of a reach, given past track record.
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Lo wrote:
hmm, this ann.lu link appeared on one of the Amithlon mailing lists. Bill fled court, is not healthy, etc.
Tig and gary_c are posting to it, and I have always respected their opinions.
AInc. not well (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1062986091&category=forum&start=1&165) :-?
Note that, one has to factor in another entity i.e. “AMIGA Development LLC” (from AmigaOS 4.0 screen shots)…
I don’t think Genesi can sue "AMIGA Development LLC" since there’s no valid contract between them. PS; I assume “AMIGA Development LLC” and “Amiga Inc” are separate legal entities.
Genesi could be just wasting its time and money on a 'holographic' legal entity.
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Hammer wrote:
Lo wrote:
hmm, this ann.lu link appeared on one of the Amithlon mailing lists. Bill fled court, is not healthy, etc.
Tig and gary_c are posting to it, and I have always respected their opinions.
AInc. not well (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1062986091&category=forum&start=1&165) :-?
Note that, one has to factor in another entity i.e. “AMIGA Development LLC” (from AmigaOS 4.0 screen shots)…
I don’t think Genesi can sue "AMIGA Development LLC" since there’s no valid contract between them. PS; I assume “AMIGA Development LLC” and “Amiga Inc” are separate legal entities.
Genesi could be just wasting its time and money on a 'holographic' legal entity.
The issue is about AmigaDE and AmigaInc. Or Amiga Development LLC has anything to do with that?
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this issue all started with amigainc signing a contract to let AmigaDe onto on of thoose vapor devices , genesi is now trying to force that vapor thingy into an pegasos , easy as that.
LLC has nothing to do with it , atleast not last time i checked.
but if amiga.inc and the name goes flat , well then anyone can buy it and well then llc is in it aswell, or? :) , ie lets say if speculators are correct , genesi or h^p buys it well then they could infact interfer with LLC and get the os4 stuff delayed or canned etc or just as well ported to a pc (merlancia mcc) and pegasos 2 (merlancia mcc)..
all i can say is , 03.octorber is my birthday , on that day...i got my first amiga in 1985 on my birthday so it might be a nice day to stop afterall, if i do....i leave all computers (ie i wont abandon ship and jump to another) . just leave...
to all whom know me should know what to get out of this post ... EOD
:)
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*sigh*
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Amiga Development LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary. Amiga Inc goes down, it all goes.
How many Commodore or Escom subsidiaries do you know that are still operating?
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to all whom know me should know what to get out of this post ... EOD
Honestly, some of you make it look like the end of the world. I myself has countless Amiga Inc's behind me... It's not like hell freezes over or anything. I was enthusiast till 2001 august. Now I am more sober, and I'm not directly involved in the "tragedy", just merely witnessing it.
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warface:if os4 doesnt come then its the end of the world , i only use amiga nothing else, if amigainc dies and get rebadged no problem for me aslong as hyperion can do what they wanted to in the first place.
you know this is not all in all just about DE , its alot more to it than that , and just because several others in this so called community can feel ok when having a mac pc and amiga and maybe a pegasos in their house, i aint like that i use Amiga and thats it.
if it means go 1 hw with 2 os's , no prob but i wont give up amigaos for something else , not atm anyway as there is no "REAL" options
my amigaone has waited for os4 for a long time , if it wont get it then it will end up never used , easy as that.
i hope i am overdramatizing this and that hyperion "STILL" have everyone actively in their staff and that no one is planning on leaving and that os4 is on schedule and rocking :)
...
and then again this came from bbrv and not amiga and thats what is killing me slowly, i can handle the news/truth if it comes from the right people but then again lately it all has gone into a big mudpool and everyday gets more and more boring..
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If Amiga only has $100 on the bank, let's all get up $50 each and buy the company. Anyone who contributes can not only run AmigaInc, but will get a free tee-shirt as well! :-D
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and then again this came from bbrv and not amiga and thats what is killing me slowly, i can handle the news/truth if it comes from the right people but then again lately it all has gone into a big mudpool and everyday gets more and more boring..
Ever thought about that if it doesn't come from the "right people" it may mean that they are NOT the right people? I realised that years ago and have a Pegasos with MorphOS now.
I accept your concerns, and don't want to force MorphOS on you, and still wishing Hyperion the best. But we are talking about a company, which, despite owning the name made this community serious damage, even exceeding damage caused by many previous Amiga owners. Many have left this community and locked themselves up in a little Amiga Inc forth because of them - based on information from the "right people". Which slowly - while at every step they cry FUD, lie - turns out to be - at least - not that true and nice.
However, it's just my side of the story. I readily accept that yours or anyone else's is different. Yet, it's not the end of the world. I was just as enthusiast the Amiga MCC - and I can live without it, you see.
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marky: ok no offence , but do you really think you could make it all better if you did just that? ....
i find such remarks silly but then again abit funny also :)
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It's funny. A few months ago, anything Rich Woods posted about Amiga Inc., and more specifically Bill McEwen would make me laugh at him. Yes, AT him. Now, he's just ... plain ... borrrrring.
I for one believe in Amiga Inc. If that makes me the only person on earth who does, then so be it.
AmiGod
I am Amigan
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@Khephren
I agree entirely.
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If Amiga only has $100 on the bank, let's all get up $50 each and buy the company
If we all gave up $50 (which most of us already have), we might -- and I stress might -- be able to pay Bolton's back salary.
Wayne
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Well.. McEwen apparently can't spell the names of his own "employees"
and partners, not even the ones whose names he actually remembers.
Like mr Ben "Hermann" (eg Hermans), "Rudy Fiorito" (eg Rudi Chiarito)
or Jarno "take your best stab at Vander Linden" (van der Linden). The
latter which he thinks resides in "Scandinavia somewhere" (New
Zeeland, the antipodes of Scandinavia..).
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Oh yes, of course, McEwen did the transcript. NOT!
Still, a few errors ;-)
Doh!
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Marky_D_Sahd wrote:
If Amiga only has $100 on the bank, let's all get up $50 each and buy the company. Anyone who contributes can not only run AmigaInc, but will get a free tee-shirt as well! :-D
:roflmao:
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That Amiga have survived four years after paying Gateway $2million for the trademarks whilst simultaneously failing to produce a tangible product or service is quite remarkable.
We are quite used to Amiga (in whatever incarnation) becoming bankrupt in the past ten years, but now that Hyperion have started the OS4 ball rolling, and Eyetech have at least got a platform ready, maybe it doesn't necessarily mean the end of the community as such.
If this sounds defeatist, it is because I ran out of patience with Amiga Inc long ago. They've not exactly been forthcoming about the true state of their affiars, and indeed it was Eyetech wo took it upon themselves to tell the community that there was yet no OS4 back in 2001. Frankly, I don't trust the buggers and nothing they've said in the past few months has caused me to change my mind.
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PMC wrote:
That Amiga have survived four years after paying Gateway $2million for the trademarks whilst simultaneously failing to produce a tangible product or service is quite remarkable.
It was $5 million according to Peake.
We are quite used to Amiga (in whatever incarnation) becoming bankrupt in the past ten years, but now that Hyperion have started the OS4 ball rolling, and Eyetech have at least got a platform ready, maybe it doesn't necessarily mean the end of the community as such.
If this sounds defeatist, it is because I ran out of patience with Amiga Inc long ago. They've not exactly been forthcoming about the true state of their affiars, and indeed it was Eyetech wo took it upon themselves to tell the community that there was yet no OS4 back in 2001. Frankly, I don't trust the buggers and nothing they've said in the past few months has caused me to change my mind.
I think most people feel the same way.
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Marky_D_Sahd wrote:
If Amiga only has $100 on the bank, let's all get up $50 each and buy the company. Anyone who contributes can not only run AmigaInc, but will get a free tee-shirt as well! :-D
:roflmao:
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I for one believe in Amiga Inc
You believe and have faith in criminals? if you love the Amiga then fine but cmon supporting scum what has screwed fellow Amigans is just disrespectful.
No wonder they will get away with more criminal activities when so called Amigans will turn a blind eye, cover everything bad up just because those bastards have the name "AMIGA".
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Paul, stop talking like an infidel and say 1000 praise amiga's while bowing toward seattle at once, these foreign ideas of 'ethics' just dont have any place in our isolated little world here OK?!?!? we're talking about 'Amiga' and we dont want your ideas coming anywhere near our zealous little heads and seeing this is just too close to thinking for us!. So be quiet and go make atonement for your thinking, or leave us alone!!!
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@meerschaum
:-D Sad but totally true.
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Where do you come up with the $2mill figure sources tell me what they paid wasn't any where near that and remember they "LICENSED" the patents and bought the name. Gateway still owns a lot of the itellectual property and uses it to defend pc designs as far as I know..
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(http://www.Morphos.org/adhocSmall.gif)
There ya' go!
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My prediction about this mess?
Gensei, -sai, -si, whatever it is goes back to the judge in six months, asks for an injunction against Amiga, Inc because their DE integration isn't done yet, puts a freeze on any further products and ####cans OS4. Of course they can't stop use of the linux boards, but they can just not order any more.
The last OS for the Amiga is 4, and it only runs on old hardware.
To quote the MCP:
End of line.
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Lando wrote:
Amiga Development LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary. Amiga Inc goes down, it all goes.
Do you have proof that “Amiga Development LLC”’s shares/capital/controling interest are own by Amiga Inc?
How many Commodore or Escom subsidiaries do you know that are still operating?
Depends on the entity structure. To classify a limited liability entity as subsidiary it’s shares/capital/controlling interest must be own by “Amiga Inc” entity, not by another person (e.g. BillMc).
The mother entity (think of a central node) shouldn’t be the one that accumulate large liabilities/riskily contracts.
One can form parallel limited entities e.g.
1st limited entity for employing people (kind’a like labour hire company). (Any employee related liabilities is limited to this entity).
2nd limited entity for trading (any trading related liabilities is limited to this entity e.g. doing contracts deals).
3rd limited entity for critical assets holding entity (e.g. holds critical non-current assets).
All three entities are control by 4th entity (usually a natural person), which is shielded by limited status by these 3 limited liabilities entities. These parallel entities must not intermingle in relation ownership/shares. A careful manipulation of limited entities can offer some protection against Commodore/Escom style bust.
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B00tDisk wrote:
My prediction about this mess?
Gensei, -sai, -si, whatever it is goes back to the judge in six months, asks for an injunction against Amiga, Inc because their DE integration isn't done yet,
Injunction usually occurs within a limited entity.
puts a freeze on any further products and ####cans OS4. Of course they can't stop use of the linux boards, but they can just not order any more.
It wouldn’t stop Eyetech from ordering more A1 motherboards since Eyetech is a separated entity in relation to “Amiga Inc”.
"The Amiga and the Amiga logo is trademark of Amiga Development LLC" - AmigaOS 4.0 screen shots.
Ben Herman's confidence that the development of AmigaOS4.x will continue (even with the demise of "Amiga Inc") could give us some hints on the undisclosed entity structure.
The last OS for the Amiga is 4, and it only runs on old hardware.
Could you disclose the relationship structure of “Amiga Deveopment LLC” and “Amiga Inc”?
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@Hammer
From the trademark Amiga in the USPTO, I got an address for them. Might want to write and ask:
Amiga Development LLC
600 North Derby Lane North
Sioux City SOUTH DAKOTA 57049
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Targhan wrote:
(http://www.Morphos.org/adhocSmall.gif)
There ya' go!
Hey, that looks good.
That just might be my next computer! :-)
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@greenboy
I see the little " :-P " wasn't lost on you.
I was thinking of another funny. That maybe McEwen was in Montana to see you. Aren't you in Montana?
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Since B00tDisk was on about predictions, I thought I`d rub my crystal balls and have a look too...
The Microsoft Mafia will make Amiga Inc an offer they can`t refuse. Then they`ll sell the DE/Anywhere stuff as all their own work, and bury the rest of Amiga in their "IP vault". :-(
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@amigod
I agree with your sentiment. RW comes of as some kind of kook (especially judging by his website content and domain name).
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Yeah - this guy must be REALLY wacked out - considering he is providing info that no one else is.
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I'm confused, don't most early companies start up WAY in the hole and run on credit lines instead of having any accumulated wealth??
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How do you get credit lines if you have no money?
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I dunno' how do companies manage to stay in debt for over 5 years but still be up and running, don't nearly all businesses lose money hand over fist for the first 5-10 years they are running?
I also would assume that credit can be made available with proper business models and potential products, otherwise how do companies get started in the first place with little to no operating capital?
Isn't credit based on the idea that you have no money?? isn't that why it's called credit?? I do realize the amiga, Inc may have no credit either, but companies often tend to run millions and millions of dollars in the hole before declaring bankruptcy.
but then again there may well be a reason I am not in big business!! :-D
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Hammer wrote:
Lando wrote:
Amiga Development LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary. Amiga Inc goes down, it all goes.
Do you have proof that “Amiga Development LLC”’s shares/capital/controling interest are own by Amiga Inc?
Amiga Development LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary of GATEWAY gentlemen. Its the company formed by gateway in 1997 or 1998 to handle the patents old and new related to amiga. Amiga Inc does not in any way own Amiga Development LLC, but you dont need to believe me, google it if you dont trust me.
-Tig
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Tigger we cant trust you, OR google, your both infidels and need to say 10,000 praise Amigas while bowing to seattle...are you part of this community or what? go say your praise amigas and stop bieng such a truth spreading infidel...the earth is flat damnit!!!.
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wierdami, I'm not receiving visitors however - unless they call ahead. My butterfly collection must first be stashed ; }
I suspect he was here to see a vet {man, stay away from horse tranquilizers ; }. Because anyone with any sense leaves Montana when they want expert medical consultation or treatment. Invariably, they go to SEATTLE, or Minneapolis.
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by Tigger on 2003/9/9 23:36:03
Amiga Development LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary of GATEWAY gentlemen. Its the company formed by gateway in 1997 or 1998 to handle the patents old and new related to amiga. Amiga Inc does not in any way own Amiga Development LLC, but you dont need to believe me, google it if you dont trust me.
Since it's being reported OS4 has Amiga LLC on one of it's screens, that must mean Amiga Inc never bought the IP from Gateway, just the trademark and hardware and just licensed the rest of it. Pretty pathetic.
Dammy
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Tigger, yep. (I could have sworn Amiga LLC was discussed into the ground a few months back - how quickly some [want to?] forget.)
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Wain: I dunno' how do companies manage to stay in debt for over 5 years but still be up and running
That just depends to whom you owe money. If you owe a bank, then forget it. Banks don't negotiate. Investors own a piece of your company, so of course they don't want to run you into the ground.
That assumes they actually release a product FIRST. If they never release a product, businesses go under pretty quick. It usually takes 5 years for products to start making money. The companies that plan for that stay in business, the companies that don't go under.
A lot of it is faith. If people have faith in your product, chances are you'll have someone willing to loan you money. Your ideas are your capital.
To get money, you need to deliver a proof of concept. Give a good presentation, and people will invest. Personally, I never felt Amiga's presentation of DE was very interesting (the concept was and still is, but their SDK was truly awful). If you can't get money, it's for two reasons: your presentation sucks, or your product sucks.
Then again... coupons, anyone? (I feel NO sympathy for anyone who bought one).
Amiga did a lousy job of getting investors' money, so they turned to the community with their stupid coupon scam, among other things. Now they keep everything secret to keep from bleeding more money, but this does absolutely nothing to generate outside interest in their concepts. At this point, they've already taken pre-payment for several products and have obligations to fill. Any investor would have to be rock stupid to give Amiga any money.
I don't want any Amiga company to go out of business, but they are to blame for their own financial situation.
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@Tigger and Greenboy
Wasn't this all discussed in one of Ben Hermans interviews or so?
I still remember something about 'If Amgia Inc. goes bankrupt, will Hyperion go on producing OS4?".
The answer was "Yes", because Hyperion then have the rights of OS4.
But ok, this is what I remember about this all. :-)
Spidey
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Spidey wrote:
@Tigger and Greenboy
Wasn't this all discussed in one of Ben Hermans interviews or so?
I still remember something about 'If Amgia Inc. goes bankrupt, will Hyperion go on producing OS4?".
The answer was "Yes", because Hyperion then have the rights of OS4.
Spidey,
It has been discussed alot, Bens position basically breaks down to 2 points.
1) He believes that he has a written a bankruptcy proof contract with AI.
2) Even if they contract if overthrown he believes MAI, will aid Hyperion in buying the Amiga rights in the auction of the IP that will probably result after.
I'll answer the points, as I have with him on this forum as well as others.
1) No US bankruptcy proof contract has ever existed, we have a staff of well over 100 US lawyers who work on our contracts, we do business with other companies who have even more lawyers, again, over 99% of contracts become null & void at a bankruptcy, those that don't are usually not for a liquidation (and AI will be liquidated) and show significant income in relation to debt (the 4.0 contract will never show that). I
2) MAI is real company, with real stockholders, a real board of directors, and despite Ben's stories, not a whole lot of interest in the Amiga market. Will they sell us boards?? Sure. Will they give Ben a million dollars to help him buy IP thats really not worth that to them?? No way.
-Tig
PS There was a post Amiwest thread on this on Moobunny, that had Ben involved if you want to look at that for more info.
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downix wrote:
@Hammer
From the trademark Amiga in the USPTO, I got an address for them. Might want to write and ask:
Amiga Development LLC
600 North Derby Lane North
Sioux City SOUTH DAKOTA 57049
Thanks... It seems that the address supplied is near Gateway's home city (recalling)...
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Tigger wrote:
Hammer wrote:
Lando wrote:
Amiga Development LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary. Amiga Inc goes down, it all goes.
Do you have proof that “Amiga Development LLC”’s shares/capital/controling interest are own by Amiga Inc?
Amiga Development LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary of GATEWAY gentlemen. Its the company formed by gateway in 1997 or 1998 to handle the patents old and new related to amiga. Amiga Inc does not in any way own Amiga Development LLC, but you dont need to believe me, google it if you dont trust me.
-Tig
Thanks for information. But I have already suspected that Amiga Development LLC is a Gateway subsidiary and I only that need some solid information…
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dammy wrote:
by Tigger on 2003/9/9 23:36:03
Amiga Development LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary of GATEWAY gentlemen. Its the company formed by gateway in 1997 or 1998 to handle the patents old and new related to amiga. Amiga Inc does not in any way own Amiga Development LLC, but you dont need to believe me, google it if you dont trust me.
Since it's being reported OS4 has Amiga LLC on one of it's screens, that must mean Amiga Inc never bought the IP from Gateway, just the trademark and hardware and just licensed the rest of it. Pretty pathetic.
Dammy
Note that, the "AMIGA and Amiga Logo is a registered trademark of Amiga Development LLC". It seems that both Amiga Inc and Hyperion have a licence of this 'Amiga' name…
The crash and burn of “Amiga Inc” doesn’t change the status of the AMIGA and Amiga logo since they are owned by “AMIGA Development LLC”.
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Tigger wrote:
Spidey wrote:
@Tigger and Greenboy
Wasn't this all discussed in one of Ben Hermans interviews or so?
I still remember something about 'If Amgia Inc. goes bankrupt, will Hyperion go on producing OS4?".
The answer was "Yes", because Hyperion then have the rights of OS4.
Spidey,
It has been discussed alot, Bens position basically breaks down to 2 points.
1) He believes that he has a written a bankruptcy proof contract with AI.
What happens IF the said contract was also linked with “AMIGA Development LLC”?
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Id like proof first that Tigger knows what hes talking about.
Who is this "we" you are referring to?
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The only TM owned by Amiga Dev LLC that I could find was one covering "computer magazines."
The "Amiga" trademark for "computer software used to facilitate development of software applications that can run on multiple platforms and other electronic devices; operating system software for personal computers and other electronic devices" doesn't seem to be registered to anybody, but there are two applicants: Bill Buck and Amiga, Inc.
The "Amiga" trademark for computers is registered to Commodore-Amiga, Inc. :)
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I've just been thinking this through for a couple of hours.
(No, I havn't read through this entire thread)
The owners of Amiga Inc. can always throw in a bit of their own money.
In fact, one reason to start a company is to make it more difficult for people who are sueing you to get access to your money.
You could have money in other accounts, or owned by other companies, or in trusts.
Plus there are a hell of a lot of other assets.
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Lots of BS in this thread... I advice people to read the somewhat smaller one on amigaworld.net for some red sided info instead of only this blue sided "I know all" talk.. (Edit; it's the news item; Amiga inc retain Amiga Trademark )
Also, if you have access to the CAM, go read page 3 of Issue 8.. Tigger may be surprised someday...
And don't feel sorry for me Waccoon... I wanted to buy both a Peg and an A1...
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Lots of BS in this thread... I advice people to read the somewhat smaller one on amigaworld.net for some red sided info instead of only this blue sided "I know all" talk..
Care to provide a link, or present the "red sided info" for us humble mortals yourself? Is it something "Fleecy told me and I don't have reason to doubt him" again?
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@Seer
"Lots of BS in this thread... I advice people to read the somewhat smaller one on amigaworld.net for some red sided info instead of only this blue sided "I know all" talk.. (Edit; it's the news item; Amiga inc retain Amiga Trademark )"
You mean this?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1251&forum=15&2
Yes, very constructive and lengthy discussion of the matter. This is where it should have been discussed. The other topic is a bit different topic, imho.
›
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Allready edited my first message a bit to make finding the info easier
Care to provide a link, or present the "red sided info" for us humble mortals yourself?
Here ya go (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=842) oh humble mortal (Not sure why you wrote it like that other then to annoy me?)
Is it something "Fleecy told me and I don't have reason to doubt him" again?
Offcourse, but that's he same as BBRV told me and I love everything he feeds us.
And for your info; I thrust Ben a bit more then some of the people here. And I believe it when Gary Peake tells us things aren't as bad as it seems but he won't go into details because of lawsuits.. (that was on the Team Amiga mailing list, and I have known Gary since the golden days of the Amiga when Fido was big as well.. Hell I even know Rich Woods from those days as well)
And also, I couldn't care less about the Amiga Vs Genesi war.. But at least I read both sides of the story and make my own mind up about it and don't force anybody else my choice; IE neither an Amiga One or Pegasos
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You mean this?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1251&forum=15&2
Yes, very constructive and lengthy discussion of the matter. This is where it should have been discussed. The other topic is a bit different topic, imho.
I must admit I was surprissed by the lack of response to that thread...
The other topic is a bit different topic, imho.
You mean the Trademark newsitem ? When falemagn brought the 100 dollar subject up Ben responded to that so it's no longer on topic...
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seer wrote:
Here ya go (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=842) oh humble mortal (Not sure why you wrote it like that other then to annoy me?)
Because you almost literally asked for it with your style? (Without providing a link or any clue you stated that most of this thread is bullshit, and how much better is "red sided info".)
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I am more amazed that no-one has bring up unpaid taxes in the other threat (which, I believe, is a criminal act?).
I think this is a very serious issue and should not be put under a mat. At least it tells a lot about how they run business.
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Because you almost literally asked for it with your style? (Without providing a link or any clue you stated that most of this thread is bullshit, and how much better is "red sided info".)
No I didn't, and I didn't say the red sided info was better. You just like to assume that.
Once again, I don't give a damn about who will win this so called war, I'm just getting tired about the one sided info being given here and on other sites so that people can't make their own opinion.. Sure we can blame that on Amiga Inc not saying anything, but that is simple to explain; they aren't allowed to because of the lawsuits.
I'm beginning to uderstand why Ikir, The Editor and many others are not comming here anymore.. You're not allowed to be neutral, and if you post something positive about Amiga Inc, bang you're in trouble..
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I am more amazed that no-one has bring up unpaid taxes in the other threat (which, I believe, is a criminal act?).
Maybe that's one of the oher lawsuits ?
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seer wrote:
I'm beginning to uderstand why Ikir, The Editor and many others are not comming here anymore.. You're not allowed to be neutral, and if you post something positive about Amiga Inc, bang you're in trouble..
And hope you know why I have cancelled my AmigaWorld.net account.
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@Waccoon
No one asked you for your sympathy. I sent in my $50 as a gesture for all the good times I had with my Amiga. Watching the way that was (mis)handled told me everything I needed to know anout Amiga Inc.
If this topic had come out a year ago the defenders would have been in the dozens. Now just only one or two lonely voices. This forum is called Amiga.org and have you ever seen anyone from that company post here? The answer is no you have not. You ave seen people from Genesi and Hyperion regularly and sometimes to answer questions they did not like.
The sooner Amiga Inc. sinks out of sight the better.
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gotta say i love your signature. it is SO correct these days :)
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What does Hyperion think about all this ?
Ben?
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And hope you know why I have cancelled my AmigaWorld.net account.
No I don't.. It may not be as neutral as Amiga.org once was, and Pegasos/MOS threads aren't encouraged but I harldy see any of the personal attacks there as here..
Note just in case; I'm not refering to you now
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seer wrote:
No I don't.. It may not be as neutral as Amiga.org once was, and Pegasos/MOS threads aren't encouraged but I harldy see any of the personal attacks there as here..
There are no personal insults on morphzone.org either. It just indicates that we have a "ethnically clean situation" on both of the mentioned sites. That's why I frequent amiga.org and ann more, to meet different opinions as well.
Having always one side of the story is comforting, but means one partly cheates him/herself. *shrugs* I don't know of neither a triarchy nor Genesi vocal entity who you can trust without a bit of a doubt.
I still keep (and I know even radical reds who share this opinion) amiga.org the best ground for colliding different opinions without "violence". (for violent clashes we have ann) Some may disagree though.
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Having always one side of the story is comforting, but means one partly cheates him/herself. *shrugs* I don't know of neither a triarchy nor Genesi vocal entity who you can trust without a bit of a doubt.
Agreed.. That's why I posted in this thread in the first place, to give the other side's info.. The lots of BS was more related to the bitching/mudslinging going on again..
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Hammer wrote:
What happens IF the said contract was also linked with “AMIGA Development LLC”?
Ben has repeatedly said his contract is with Amiga Inc a company founded by Bill, Barry & Randy with VC money, not with Amiga Development LLC who was founded by Ted Waite as a subsidiary of Gateway. Amiga Development LLC, for the most part still owns most of what we think of as amiga, Amino (ie Amiga Inc) has an exclusive license for it. Hyperion and Eyetech would be in much better straits if there deal was with the Gateway subsidiary.
-Tig
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Lets hear from Ben... they're always very vocal on ANN.... bit quiet on this subject though....
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MAn, what a read..... :-o
First off, I'm no lawyer, but my best friend is a DA here in Texas. He had some interesting things to say.
If AI does go bust, as it seems, they have to liquidate. All contracts would be null and void, so we have to start over. (again). Debts are paid first, then investors. Easiest way to pay off a bankruptcy is to sell off IPs. (a la Commowhore and Escom) Since they don't own them, they sell the licenses. Chump change, even with the new IPs added with the 'DE'.
Wouldn't be enough to pull their arses out of the fire.
Also, Hyperion, be it Ben, Thomas, or Hans-Jorg, stated somewhere that they added a clause in their contract that should AI pop, they retain all IPs *THEY* have created. I didn't understand this at first, but Shannon cleared it up a bit for me.
Even if AI croaks, which seems to be likely, Hyperion still owns the rights to their own IPs on the new OS design codes. Even though they're using the original code, it's STILL their IP; their code. It works the same ways as MorphOS. It's based off Amiga design and runs on Amiga hardware, but it's NOT amiga. (Before I get flamed by everyone, most of you should know that I only speak when I feel there is a need to say something. I am impartial to all. I have UAE and Amithlon and I'd like to get a Peg as well as an A1, but unless I win the lotto, it isn't going to happen. Besides, if I win the lotto, I'll use the money to bail AI *OUT* of the frying pan and into fire, but only if Bill steps down as CEO, if anything just to stop the damned 'God Bless' crap at the end of every pathetic piece of news AI calls an 'executive update.' I used to respect McEwen, but we all know hes a fop and a waste of breathable amiga air. Regardless of what people say, he's done nothing to save Amiga, other than buying the IP license from Gateway. IMO, he's no better than Medi Ahli (sp), but at least that bag of #### jumped ship before it sunk. McEwan's gonna run this baby on shore and scuttle it.)
Hyperion made a good choice when writing the terms of their contract. They can still release OS4, though it won't have the Amiga name and more than likely, will be forced to run on the A1 boxes only.
If McEwan was smart, he'd let Thendic have the DE and drop the frivilous lawsuits. (We all know DE is complete ####, can't do what was claimed (Thank you TAO) and is nothing but vapor, which is what you can expect from *ANY* company with the name 'AMIGA'.) :-?
OS4 should have never been pulled from BPlan, but McEwan had to bitch about MorphOS. For what it is, it's good and it has hell of a lot more support from developers and consumers than Amiga Inc. Thendic talks alot of #### and flames ALL over, but it's obvious they care about what few users are left in Amiga-Land, but the same goes for Eyetech and Hyperion.
Eyetech invested alot of their own money on the A1 project and I respect them for that. I also respect Hyperion for their devotion to a dead and, I'm sorry if I offend anyone, dated OS worthy only of emulation. I think it's ####ed up that they have to take side work and credit lines to fuel their project, when the parent company they're coding for doesn't support them in the slightest.
You know, it wouldnt' have hurt McEwen to show up to CeBit. Even if they didn't have much to show, even if it was only a few 'emulated' PPC modules, at least it would show that Amiga was still *ALIVE*. No, he had to play games and #### with people's beliefs, steal their money and never defend himself when charged with 'dubious' methods, except with 'It's not true.'
Are any of you the least bit suprised?? You all act as though you didn't see this coming?? I have no faith in Amiga Inc. I have no faith in the 'Amiga' name. I have *NO* faith in the people that haven't paid their employees in a year (if that indeed is the case). I have even less for Bill Buck, if anything for his pathetic attempts to stir more support from an already bleagured group of resistors.
But I do have faith in Hyperion and Eyetech.
Regardless of if AI pukes on its own words and ends up where it belongs, in the 'we could have made it' businesses, Hyperion will follow through on their word. It maybe Hyperion OS1 or whatever, but they'll get it out. At least they're honest about the dates. They don't say anything. If it's pushed back, they apologize, but also say, 'believe in us, it's worth the wait.' For some reason, that holds more for me than anything Mr. God Bless has to say.
That's why I'm waiting for OS4. I don't care about AI or ALLC. I care about Hyperion. They *ARE* Amiga.
Now if you will excuse me, Raistlin, the rest of his party and I have a date with Mangar in his tower, not to mention, I have a lottery ticket to go buy.
:-D
You know, it's funny. Never once did I think that buying a lottery ticket was worth it (to me, it's simply and 'idiot tax'.), but after reading this thread, it seems so much more worth it. :cry:
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Methuselas: Agree on most of this... Well written and has
essentials in it.
(IMHO IANAL)
Hyperion Owning their written code is likely to be clear, but do
Hyperion have undisputable right to distribute it cause they have
openly admitted USING old copyrighted sourcecode as a reference
without paying license to it's rigthfull owner (whoerver that happen
to be by the time OS4 is released?)?.
Besides.. that would not get them home free. They have announced usign
a lot of old 3rd party products (like ARexx) whose licensing had been
questioable even today. If this Ainc-collapse happens, (imho) Hyperion
has *NO* way to include any of those olds parts whatsoever without
major hassle (+exxpense) of relicensing them all. Or to
re-implementing them...
And third.. Name.. That they can't get to it.. so may it be HypeOS or
whatever it would not be any more Amiga than those other ones. ... Ok
I know some people will consider 'original source' a major differing
factor... :)
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Well, from what Shannon told me, Hyperion has a case in that originally, they were to spearhead the OS release. They have and will have the ability to use the code however they see fit, so long as their contract holds out.
If AI busts, they can use that as a way of getting a new license from either Gateway, who still owns most original Amiga IPs, or from the purchaser of Amiga licenses from the AI bust. (assuming that AI does indeed fold, which I am not hoping for.)
There are alot of additions that are indeed questionable about hte OS (arexx as you so said), but we already know that the new OS is on a HAL, which is what AI was claiming to do in the first place with the DE.
Even Hyperion said it is waiting only on the graphics.library to boot OS4 on the A1. How far away that is, i am not certain, but once it's on the A1 and booting, technically it's not amiga anymore. That right there is Thendic's whole claim with the Pegasos, it may act like an amiga, but it's NOT an amiga. Since it's not amiga, they have solidified the wall between them and AI, making their own case more viable. (IE, 'Yeah, we have this OS that works like Amiga, but it's not amiga. AI signed a contract with us for rights to OS4.0, but because we refuse to use a single OS, in this regards OS4.0, the contract was pulled by AI, which (I haven't seen the contracts, I'm not a lawyer, so i don't know if this is the actual case.) is in violation of our original contract.')
AI needs to pull their heads out of their arses and be quick about it. The only thing that keeps them afloat is chapter 11 and the few zealots that with their own words, attempt to patch every hole McEwen has made in his attempts to scuttle Amiga.
We already know that the licenses for Amiga IP has already passed (Kudos to Gateway. If they don't have something decent to offer, kill it and give it to someone else.) and AI scrambled to snatch them back up again. Makes you wonder what's really going on around there.
Personally, I think it's an atrocity that the 'CEOs' of Amiga get 500k salaries, yet employess haven't even been paid yet.
To have AI go bust now would only cripple Amiga even more. Even if they were to sell out their IPs, if the company that bought them didn't push a thousand fold harder to get OS4.0 into this dead market, it's efforts and Hyperion's are for naught.
It's crunch time, Ladies and Gentlemen and you know it. If AI dies now, we know amiga dies with it. While I love Hyperion, they don't have the money to get the Amiga IPs and unless some idiot like me forks over the cash to bail Amiga out, it's Commodore all over again. :-(
'Only fools dance where angels fear to tread.' - Shakespeare
How many of you are still dancing??
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Note: Following text may sound a bit cruel, but in the end this is how
I honestly feel about all this.. And this all is IMHO. So if you need
to flame, do so, but try to keep it more or less into this subject.
And I know I make typos.. :)
Yes.. I too would miss Amiga if it's gone for good, but not so much I
would jump to help them blindly and without some quarantees. And I
know.. this entire situation where AmigaInc and companions are is
highly debatable, and we can go on years discussing who is guilty and
who is not.. But nothing happens until this mess starts to unravel
itself and for there need to be some action.
Unless major course change happens, I can't place my trust on them
again. And without trust of things to be changed for good, I'm not
going to be part of any rescue/reanimation project. I know ther's no
way to force things to happen, but in the end... They need our (or at
least someones?) money and support to go on, not the other way
around.
(edit removed practical suggestions for sorting things out.. aren't
likely to happen..)
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I think the Amiga really died when Escom went bust.
Since then, people have only been wishing it were alive, and a company called "Amiga Inc." is what helped them believe in the Amiga's future. That's all.
Amiga Inc. seems to me to be a con all the way.
I kind of wish fleecy wasnt part of it, otherwise we would have OS4 - "MorphOS".
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IMO, it will be a good thing when Amiga Inc croaks. They have brought nothing but dishonor and betrail to this community. We have two (well, three whenever OS4 sees the light of day) Amiga replacement OSs and a whole smattering of other alternative OSs to chose from. When C= went under, we basically had a choice of Windbloat, Macrap, and Atari OS. Today, take your pick, there is enough OSs to go around for everyone and the hardware is mostly damn impressive.
In short, Amiga Inc really has nothing to offer, and much to take from us.
Dammy
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Speaking of ARexx, I wonder what Bill Hawes is doing today or if he's even aware of the scenario. The same goes for Len Poma CrossDOS's author extraordinaire..
-Don
PS Len is local to me here in Michigan.. I hope he sees this and responds..
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Dammy: well. there were other alternativeies back then too.. After C=
busted I used windowses, OS/2 Warp, Beos, Linuxes and more windowses.
What I have larned is.. I don't like Linuxes (as personal OS) and
havign to use windowse for rest of life ain't too positive idea
either..