Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: bloodline on August 29, 2003, 08:55:19 PM
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If you are planning to take your Amiga (or any other computer for that matter) to the information superhighway via the magic of BT's Openworld bradband service. Please take heed:
I have just recieved a letter telling me that due to my Phone line being registered toa new name, my Openworld contract has been breached, I now must pay the remaining value of the contract (nine months left = £270) and my service will be terminated in 2 days (seven days from the date of the letter, that seems to have taken 5 days to get to me :-? ).
Given the fact that I have not changed the name of the Phone line holder, and that I am up to date with all my bills, I find this rather unfair.
Attmpts to talk with them by phone and by Email, have failed, with them refusing to accept that I have not changed the name of the Phone line holder...
My advice STAY AWAY FROM BT Openworld.
Note:
I never had any prblems with Telewest.
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Shouldn't they then be able to give some proof that the line was indeed registered to a new name and who made the change ?
Not much help offcourse if they refuse to talk to ya...
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seer wrote:
Shouldn't they then be able to give some proof that the line was indeed registered to a new name and who made the change ?
Not much help offcourse if they refuse to talk to ya...
The best the poor little spod on the end of the phone line could suggest was that I follow their 5 stage(!?!?!?!?) complaints procedure... but I still have to pay the £270 and will have no internet access :boohoo: and I can't afford a new service provider :-x
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I can't really imagine what a 5 stage complaint procedure is... Try to call again if you haven't allready... If they won't want to help you, I'm sure there are other means to get answers from them.. (Consumer protection et al)..
Sorry, don't know how I can give you any better advice, don't live where you live..
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@bloodline
It's no so much BT Openworld as BT in general. Their staff are told to automatically assume that the customer is mistaken and that no mistake was made at the BT end. I had problems with them earlier this year and it took me ages to sort it out. When I'd finally convince one operator that I was right and they were wrong, they would assure me things would get sorted or else they'd pass me on to someone else. Then nothing would happen or the line would go dead and I would have to start from scratch again.
First, make use of their complaints procedure and take the name of the operators you speak to. Second, do not pay the rest of your contract, since it is up to them to prove that you have breached your contract. Counteract by telling them that their evidence is wrong and you will be claiming compensation for any restriction of service, and demand that they provide you with documentary evidence of their claim. As I've found out, BT like to bully you and the only way to deal with them is to bully them back. Go on the offensive and don't take "no" for an answer.
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bhoggett wrote:
@bloodline
It's no so much BT Openworld as BT in general. Their staff are told to automatically assume that the customer is mistaken and that no mistake was made at the BT end. I had problems with them earlier this year and it took me ages to sort it out. When I'd finally convince one operator that I was right and they were wrong, they would assure me things would get sorted or else they'd pass me on to someone else. Then nothing would happen or the line would go dead and I would have to start from scratch again.
First, make use of their complaints procedure and take the name of the operators you speak to. Second, do not pay the rest of your contract, since it is up to them to prove that you have breached your contract. Counteract by telling them that their evidence is wrong and you will be claiming compensation for any restriction of service, and demand that they provide you with documentary evidence of their claim. As I've found out, BT like to bully you and the only way to deal with them is to bully them back. Go on the offensive and don't take "no" for an answer.
Cheers bill, I'm going over my contract with a fine tooth comb, I will stand up to them.
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Attmpts to talk with them by phone and by Email, have failed, with them refusing to accept that I have not changed the name of the Phone line holder...
my mate steven had a bill for just over a £1000 once. He got the telephone bill and some of the calls were listed as calling his own number from the same phone and others were complete crap he never paid and complained and it went down to £100 he let them cut his phone line off and went to ntl instead.I had bt surftime internet for off peak use only, but they cut me off without telling me i think it was because i put the computer on autoreconect but i got no letter of warning or email although that hardly ever worked . I paid what i owed cancelled it and went to ntl and got 128k broadband for less money with no restrictions its now 150k and £17.99 a month its fast enough for me but i might move up to 600k sometime later.
[color=669933]BT SUCK[/color] :-)
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amigamad wrote:
Attmpts to talk with them by phone and by Email, have failed, with them refusing to accept that I have not changed the name of the Phone line holder...
my mate steven had a bill for just over a £1000 once. He got the telephone bill and some of the calls were listed as calling his own number from the same phone and others were complete crap he never paid and complained and it went down to £100 he let them cut his phone line off and went to ntl instead.I had bt surftime internet for off peak use only, but they cut me off without telling me i think it was because i put the computer on autoreconect but i got no letter of warning or email although that hardly ever worked . I paid what i owed cancelled it and went to ntl and got 128k broadband for less money with no restrictions its now 150k and £17.99 a month its fast enough for me but i might move up to 600k sometime later.
[color=669933]BT SUCK[/color] :-)
I badly want to go back to Telewest or go to NTL, but neither serve my area... :boohoo:
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My mate has Demon Broadband, it seems to be a very good service, no cap and its only £25 a month, might be worth a try.
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@NitrousB
Demon Broadband still uses BT's service, and they can still make life hell for you as I found out to my cost (even though my broadband was never with Openworld as such)
They cut off my service - entirely their mistake - but it took me a week to discover what happened, persuade them they were wrong, and then get my service reconnected. Even though it was BT's fault, I had to go back to my provider and ask them to get me reconnected despite the fact that it wasn't their fault at all, and then they had to chase BT up so that the idiots would get me reconnected. Of course, it was days before BT told me I had to do this, as they kept saying they would be fixing the problem and then ignoring me.
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Yeah you should try calling again... I have noticed that it really depends on the person that answer the phone at the isp, some are nice but most arent...
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I badly want to go back to Telewest or go to NTL, but neither serve my area..[/quote
Thats a pain . :-)
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[color=669933]BT SUCK[/color]
Too true, I`m still waiting for them to come back and fix the noise on my phone line (again !!).
The engineer they sent round was an absolute muppet (apologies to any furry puppets out there). He didn`t even know what the master socket looked like, and wouldn`t believe me when I showed it to him . Only after he had opened every socket in the house did he finally open the one I had first pointed to.
Anyway, he traced the fault to the exchange, and said he`d be 10 minutes. 20 mins later, he knocks at the door and says "Why didn`t you answer the phone?? I`ve been ringing to tell you it`s all fixed"
Trouble is, the phone never rang..so he then proceded to check the wiring and phones in the house, as they must be the fault..not his "repairs"!
"Hmm, must be the exchange again" he grunted, and headed back down the road.
5 mins later the phone rings.. "Hello, it`s the engineer, just you the phones ok now!"
As they say, third time lucky and the phone is crystal clear now...when it`s sunny and dry ..the slightest hint of rain, and the phone sounds like a Ham radio
:-x
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I can only regurgitate what people have already said, but I'll say it anyway :-)
Do NOT under any circumstances let that bill be paid. Refuse to pay it until you have seen some proof of the name change.
If you have kept all your previous BT bills, you have all the proof you need that the name hasn't been changed. If the bills are still coming to you with YOUR name on it then BT definitely are wrong. If the name was changed then the bills wouldn't have your name on them. Also, you won't have asked them to change the name of the account, so you can ask for that proof.
If you don't get a straight answer from BT within, say, a week, go to the Trading Standards.
Go to:
Trading Standards (http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/) - enter your postcode to find out where the nearest office is.
Consumer Complaints (http://www.consumercomplaints.org.uk/) - this seems to be linked with Trading Standards, but I'm not sure exactly how
Hope that helps :-)
Oh, I'm with Telewest, not had any really serious problems with them. We'll NEVER go back to BT - we never had the net when we were with them, but we never plan to either ;-)
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First write a letter.
You want a responce within 7 days, remember to keep a copy.
If you have no joy.
Write a letter to BT MD, enclosing your original letter with there written responce.
Then go to Oftel.
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.... the information superhighway via the magic of BT's Openworld....
dialup?
my condolences
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Too true, I`m still waiting for them to come back and fix the noise on my phone line (again !!).
i had noise on my phone they never sorted it out properly .
when it`s sunny and dry ..the slightest hint of rain, and the phone sounds like a Ham radio
Thats the same as mine was. :-)
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BT Broadband here ..
Only problem I have had is when my "Frog" USB modem went "out of sync" (Whatever that means).
Took about a week for an engineer to come out and replace it saying the classic line of....
"First time we've had one of these go down" !!
Otherwise .. I Recommend BT over every other Uk provider....However.. My brother, who was a BT engineer for 23 years (just took voluntary redundancy) was himself "Kicked" from his ISDN Anytime account from BT ... Turns out "Anytime" Isn't ANYTIME.
And DOES'NT recommend them at all ...
Bhoggets course of action is HIGHLY recommended by my bro as the "Way Forward".
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5 mins later the phone rings.. "Hello, it`s the engineer, just you the phones ok now!"
LOL!
To solve the original poster's problem, I would phone BT back, threaten to go to Oftel if they refuse to help (my cousin used to work for Mercury and the slightest mention of Oftel and they would do anything for you ;-) )
If that doesn't work, put it in writing.
If it still doesn't get resolved to your satisfaction, go to Oftel (http://www.oftel.gov.uk).
Chris
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That is nasty indeed and sort of proves BT are capable of anything. Me personaly i cant complain to much, i have used there Broadband service for quite a long time and never had that many problems plus i got a 25% discount just recently.
Thnx for the warning anyway and good luck.
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I pretty much agree with Calen, I'm on BTBB too. Isn't Openworld a limited to 150 hours a month or something?
I'd hate to have to put up with time limitations (again)!:roll:
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Thank you all!!! you have been a great comfort and help.
I will be following the official channels, and I hope for a resolution :-)
But This does mean that I will probably not be able to post here for a while... so bye all, and I hope to be back on line soon.... ish :-D
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pretty much agree with Calen, I'm on BTBB too.
BTBB and BTO are two seperate ISP's (i forget the finer details), BTO came first and BTBB followed after the wires only installs became more popular. When i originaly signed up for BB around 18 months ago BTBB did not exist.
I think BTBB are alittle cheaper to as they don't offer the same amount of webspace/emails address as there sidekick.
it's also "rumoured" that BTBB have a limit on how much you can download per month but its prolly so high you wont ever have that problem and even if you do, you may just get a slap on the wrist. BTO do not have these restrictions .
Isn't Openworld a limited to 150
150 - you mean hours per month acess?
If so..You are confusing there adsl with dialup, yes there dialup service has heavy restrictions like 90% of other UK dialup providers, but yeah.. BTO do offer the service of dialup and BB, i'm really not sure if BTBB offer a dialup service, who would want it anyway :)
Having said all that, there ADSL service is pretty much identical but you can still tell them apart on say... IRC
*BTopenworld.com
*BTcentralplus.com :-)
In the end though.. the customer service with BTO is terrible but i can't fault there BB line service that much though, i would have left a long time ago otherwise.
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I'm sure I've been misquoted... :-?
Alright perhaps the "a" didn't have to be there, but I did mention it was per month.
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Dont pay it and dont worry. Even if you have breached your contract, they'll lost any case they may take out against you. By law they simply cannot enforce any unreasnoble terms in the contract. Cut off any method they have of getting money from you, and change service providers. They are one of the worst in the country. Ignore any correspondance and threats. You will know if they actually do take any court action out against you, dut to the parerwork you will recieve. It is imperative that you DO reply to this.
Take this advice from a man that has taken several companies to court, and been taken to court by companies. I have never lost to the fvckers.
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Minion wrote:
Dont pay it and dont worry. Even if you have breached your contract, they'll lost any case they may take out against you. By law they simply cannot enforce any unreasnoble terms in the contract. Cut off any method they have of getting money from you, and change service providers. They are one of the worst in the country. Ignore any correspondance and threats. You will know if they actually do take any court action out against you, dut to the parerwork you will recieve. It is imperative that you DO reply to this.
Take this advice from a man that has taken several companies to court, and been taken to court by companies. I have never lost to the fvckers.
Really?!?! I have been thinking about this and it apears that the reason I have had my account terminated does not appear in the contract! There is nothing about changing the name of the account holder of the phone line at all!!!
I hope that by following the complaints procedure, leading to Oftel, I can resolve this matter.
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bloodline wrote:
Really?!?! I have been thinking about this and it apears that the reason I have had my account terminated does not appear in the contract! There is nothing about changing the name of the account holder of the phone line at all!!!
They thought they could wrangle some extra cash out of an innocent customer, but you've got them by the balls now :-D
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Hey, BL: I agree with CamperMan, put it in writing. A phone call only lasts until the operator (who is probably in New Delhi) hangs up. A letter of complaint (cc Fair Trading Standards Board), quoting the contents of their letter and arguing each point succinctly and without bluster, will stay in their files and can not be "lost", especially if you photocopy it at the newsagent's before you post it. If you register it, even better.
But don't threaten or speak rudely to them, it only makes them feel guilty, and less likely to fix the problem.
tony
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i lost my broadband for well over a day so i contacted my isp (gio internet) who went through all the possible causes, after me telling him id checked everything he finally agreed that it was a loss of signal from the exchange and told me i should contact bt to have it resolved. I contacted BT and they told me that my line was fine several times even tho they couldnt check the line after much hullabaloo they still said my line was fine and that it was my modem that was to blame (quite how he knew this when he didnt even realise pci adsl modems existed i dont know). Miraculously my line got fixed shortly after. Point is, the bastards will never admit that its their fault and will always tell you its something that you have done.
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Again, more proof that BT is a bunch of wankers... Glad I don't have to deal with them on this side of the pond!
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Indeed, /me is glad SBC have never done this.
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@bhoggett:
It's no so much BT Openworld as BT in general. Their staff are told to automatically assume that the customer is mistaken and that no mistake was made at the BT end.
Really? I must've been off that day. ;-)
Do you have a copy of this "BT in general" staff directive? I'd love to see it.
Having said that, I know what a nightmare it can be for customers trying to deal with BT, and appreciate the frustration you and Matt have experienced.
First, make use of their complaints procedure and take the name of the operators you speak to. Second, do not pay the rest of your contract, since it is up to them to prove that you have breached your contract. Counteract by telling them that their evidence is wrong and you will be claiming compensation for any restriction of service, and demand that they provide you with documentary evidence of their claim.
The above is all decent advice. *ALWAYS* take the persons name. that way they'll think twice about telling you porkies.
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I doubt BT have got their legal/contract facts wrong, if I were the customer in this case I would check and double-check everything, then get someone else to double-check it for me.
Stunts like this could make BT incredibly unpopular. In the case of ~£270, they've got much more to lose than gain.
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@Wilse
Really? I must've been off that day. Do you have a copy of this "BT in general" staff directive? I'd love to see it.
Well, I don't know that there is an official directive to that effect, but since every single operator I spoke to was trying to persuade me that I was wrong and BT were right, despite the fact that provided all the evidence to back me up and apparently conviced each operator in turn (after 15-20 minutes of debate each time), what else can I assume? Why the details of what was concluded in my conversation with the first operator were not entered into the system is beyond my understanding.
I certainly found it totally unacceptable that my broadband service was cut off for an entire week despite the fact that the fault lay with BT in the first place and they admitted this from the start (after persuasion and my presenting the relevant evidence).
@mikeymike
BT won't have their contract facts wrong, but they do get customer account details wrong. It is possible that Matt's "change of name" was due to a mistake by someone at BT.
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@Bill:
Well, I don't know that there is an official directive to that effect,
Perhaps because it would be commercial suicide if there was one?
but since every single operator I spoke to was trying to persuade me that I was wrong and BT were right, despite the fact that provided all the evidence to back me up and apparently conviced each operator in turn (after 15-20 minutes of debate each time), what else can I assume?
Various things? Incompetence on the part of the operators springs to mind. Saying staff, in general, are told to behave this way is a rather sweeping accusation that, if made against a firm in the amiga marketplace - with the same lack of proof, would be condemned as FUD and rightly so. You didn't mention that it was only your opinion, based on personal experience or not.
Incompetence is one thing. A company policy of deliberately pissing off your customers is quite another.
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@Wilse
Various things? Incompetence on the part of the operators springs to mind. Saying staff, in general, are told to behave this way is a rather sweeping accusation that, if made against a firm in the amiga marketplace - with the same lack of proof, would be condemned as FUD and rightly so. You didn't mention that it was only your opinion, based on personal experience or not. Incompetence is one thing. A company policy of deliberately pissing off your customers is quite another.
Quite. Yet I must have spoken to at least a dozen different operators over the span of a few days, and every single one spent the first five minutes trying to tell me I was mistaken. If this is down to operator incompetence, it sounds pretty widespread, wouldn't you say?
I'm not actually blaming the operators. I blame the system, specifically the likely bad design of the software on which the automated account management is done. All it takes is one mistake and everything goes down the pan, but since there is no reason for an operator to assume the data they have on their screen is wrong they assume the customer is simply confused and angry and needs the facts explaining to him. This works fine with customers who really are confused, but irritates the hell out of people who ring up and actually know what they are talking about.
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The_Editor wrote:
Only problem I have had is when my "Frog" USB modem went "out of sync" (Whatever that means).
'Sync' is, quite simply, the term for having a DSL connection across the line. Basically, your phone line runs from your house to a 'DSLAM' ('DSL Access Multiplier') in the CO ('Central Office') or RT ('Remote Terminal,' a Central-Office-in-a-box sort of thing they can deploy by the roadside). The 'voice' frequencies on the line are filtered and split off to the regular switching equipment (that handles all the regular 'phone-line' stuff - providing dialtone, ringing, accepting your touch-tones to place a call and routing your voice signal to the party on the other end), and the DSLAM is basically a rack of DSL modems that bridge everything onto the telco's data network, where your packets zip around various other sorts of wire and fiber until they're routed to the rest of the Internet.
Since it's an always-on sort of link, either everything's "synched up" - the modem knows how to talk to the DSLAM, the DSLAM knows how to talk to the modem, and they can achieve this on a fairly constant basis without fail - or it isn't.
So when you "lose sync," it means something's gone bad with the connection between your modem and the DSLAM,* the little green light goes out, and you have to live in the real world again. :cry: Often it's a transient sort of thing - something happened to degrade the line quality below what's needed for the speed your link tries to run at, or some moron accidentally knocked your 'pair' (the two wires that make up your phone line) loose while installing someone else's service - but something frying in the modem would certainly cause it, too.
*Contrast this to, say, some idiot with a backhoe cutting the backbone fiber between your local CO and your provider's "peering center," the place where they connect their data network to those of other companies that make up the 'Internet.' The link between your modem and the DSLAM would be fine - you'd still "have sync" - but 'your Internet would be out' nonetheless. (Firstly because your packets just couldn't reach other networks; secondly because you rely on the DNS to turn 'www.amiga.org' into an address to connect to, and your provider's DNS servers need to check in with one of 13 authoritative servers stashed around the planet every once in a while, even if you just want to reach guy.next.door.connected.to.the.same.DSLAM.com!)
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Following the advice given on this list I submitted my complaint to BT Openworld, highlighting the points int he contract where they had been unfair.
They agreed, and now this issue is resolved.
Thanks again, all.
I appreciate the support you gave.
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I have some slightly distressing news - we canNOT get Telewest phone/tv/internet in our new house! :-x :cry:
And we're moving on Monday. :-o :nervous:
Tonight I'm phoning Sky to get that installed (can't live without Cartoon Network or Takeshi's Castle :-D), and I'll probably get a deal with them and BT (they used to do deals, I don't know if they still do).
Bloody annoying because with Telewest £13 a month is totally unlimited net access, but with BT you're paying £15.99 (?) for 6pm - 6am or something like that which is pure ####. :-x
AVOID BT Openworld!!!!
Unavoidable in this situation :-(
Oh, btw, good to see you got your problem solved :-D
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Bloody annoying because with Telewest £13 a month is totally unlimited net access, but with BT you're paying £15.99 (?) for 6pm - 6am or something like that which is pure ####
Not quite. BT Anytime (a package they do) allows "unlimited" free access at any time of day/week. "Unlimited", because it's limited to 150 hours/month.
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Hum,
i got banned for`abuse` of their services...
i was on line for more than 12 hours in a period of 24 hours!
Never mind the 150 hours a week....
I am now with Freeserve..just to play quake 3d of course.
:-D
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mikeymike wrote:
Not quite. BT Anytime (a package they do) allows "unlimited" free access at any time of day/week. "Unlimited", because it's limited to 150 hours/month.
Yeah, that's what we'll end up getting.
We've been on the phone to BT and we can get connected for £75, an extra phone point put in for £45 , £11.50 a month for the line rental (BT Together) and £15.99 for the net (BT Anytime).
Grand total for the first month is: £147.49 :-o
I *really* hate BT (we've had nothing but bother with them in the past), but it's our only choice just now. This means I can only get 4.8 hours net time a day :-(
With Telewest (well, Blueyonder really) it was £13 a month for unlimited (which really *is* unlimited) net access.
We also can't get BT installed until Monday 15th. We move house on Monday 8th. One whole week without a land line and net access :-(
The PCs and Miggys are moving on Sunday afternoon, so the last net time I'll get is Saturday night :-(
This week is gonna be hell :-P
Oh yeah, this also means that we can't get Sky installed until then aswell because they need to be connected to the phone line aswell.
Bloody annoying this is. Ah well, at least I've got my Miggy and PS2 to keep me company for the week, oh and Siouxsie ;-)