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Author Topic: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.  (Read 6073 times)

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Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2010, 01:43:01 PM »
OK, why would I want to build a system that runs AOS with a 68K processor without the Amiga chipset?
This relates directly to my objections on the AGA design and Amiga evolution in general.
The original Lorraine concept is very elegant. It takes a very powerful microprocessor and combines it with a group of custom chips the off load some of the work that other systems would leave to the processor. This does not mean that the 68K couldn't handle those tasks.
The Atari ST managed with a far less competent chipset using the power of the 68K (and if it had a flaw, it was limited colors and screen resolution).
Brute force can work when a processor has enough power to handle these task adquately.

My own experience with that concept, running the day to day operations of Delmar Company in Middletown Delaware in the late 80's and early 90's. We worked with Peripheral Technologies in Marietta Georgia to produce a line of 68000 and 68020 computer that used an ISA bus (allowing us to use standard PC cards). There were 6809 and V20 coprocessor cards available and toward the end of it development and 68030 system and a revamped 6809 card (with a Tandy Color Computer 3 ASIC on it) were underdevelopment.
Like the Amiga, our systems were multi-tasking, but they were also multi-user. The base system (our 'terminal' system) has four RS-232 ports to support VT100 or VT52 terminal and was primarily marketed asfor use in applications like Point of sales systems.
However, we also offered an alternative system (that could still support additional terminals) that had a Tseng Labs ET4000 based video card, a PC keyboard and a mouse. we also contracted with a developer who had developed Windowing software for Gespac (another early Motorola based system builder) to port his Windowing package to our systerm.

What do any of this have to do with the topic? Well our brute force systems support five concurrent users, one of which had access to a GUI based interface that offered the same number of colors as an Amiga and the same display modes as a VGA PC.
I can't compare the two systems as their target markets were different (and the Amiga was definately a superior multimedia platform), but I'm proud of what our small group of companies managed to create.

And in on area, I think we had an edge over the Amiga. All our dsoftware access to our hardware ran through device drivers, meaning we weren't tied to specific hardware (as the Amiga is so firmly wedded to AGA).

Now, why is the Amiga chipset (which in the original Amiga was such an asset) a liability in later Amigas?
Because while the processors in later Amigas became faster and much more powerful, the chipset remained essentially the same. What was fast enough to assist a standard 68000, became a liability to an 020, 030, or 060 because it was SLOW inrelation to those processors. By the time you've reached the 68060 you would have been better off with the chipset and simply rewriting the OS to use retargetable drivers for alternate hardware. You guys don't get it, the chipset slows down later Amigas. And AGA made that WORSE.

So, that, in a nutshell would be my arguement for scrapping the chipset. Natami sounds good and 100% cpmpatibility sounds great until you realize that no other system has bothered to do this because it carries liabilities as well.

So what would I like as an final 68K based Amigiod system? Well 68060 50Mhz chips are still plentiful and cheap. An ISA bus would be another liability, but a PCI bus at 33Mhz would be a definate improvement over the sppeds the the Amiga chipset communicates at. A PCI graphics card for RG graphics (doesn't even have to be that modern a Voodoo3 or a Radeon 9000 would be fine, a modern stereo Audio codec would be useful (but might be cheaper as a PCI add on card) and other accesories (drive controllers, usb cards, etc) also might make more sense as cheap add on cards.

Now I appologize for the length of the post. I've edited it once so I've already read Toneoo7's comment after this. Who would buy it? Good question. I can buy a complete ARM system for $200 (which would be about the target price for what I'm thinking of) and the ARM system would be much more powerful and just as capable of run Amiga software.
But I like the idea of a low cost 68K system that relies on a real 68K processor I'm certain that it would be faster than any legacy Amiga (and yes its only compatible with OS friendly RTG compatible software).

After the negative posts, I've decided to pursue a proof of concept prototype. The only thing I ask is that you don't judge my ideas until I've had a chance to prove myself (or through my actions, disprove myself).

Jim
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 02:36:35 PM by Iggy »
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Offline tone007

Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2010, 01:44:39 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602419
OK, why would I want to build a system that runs AOS with a 68K processor without the Amiga chipset?


Why would anyone at this point?  Who would spend good money on such a thing?
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Offline Buzzfuzz

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2010, 01:49:30 PM »
Quote from: tone007;602420
Why would anyone at this point? Who would spend good money on such a thing?

I won't, I would rather spend good money on someone porting all Amiga software to the x86 platform, lets face it, we are not going to get anywhere if we continue to :smack: on old hardware.
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Offline gertsy

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2010, 01:57:22 PM »
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Offline AmigaNG

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2010, 02:26:20 PM »
i have to ask why some of the people are here, if you really want a true next generation Amiga OS that hold on to nothing of its past and works differently and modern then go and join BeOS or QNX community's both OS have been compared to what a modern AmigaOS should perhaps be, but that's the point if you change so much of the OS is it really Amiga any more and I know where going into a topic that has been covered 100's of times what makes an Amiga, an Amiga?

But to me the reason I'm still here is because of way the OS is layout and works, its just simple, I like the drag screen affects, I like access to my ram disk and I like a lot of other little touch here and their that make it an Amiga experiences, some of the legacy apps like deluxe paint and scalos I still love using and yes the classic games as well.

All I want is a OS that works the same way my current Amiga works but it can not only play the classic stuff but can do some more modern things like play DVDs, handle the new media formats, surf the net, and bring back some of the fun I use to have with computers that sadly disappeared the day I had to move to windows. (saying that however windows7 I must admit to it being the best thing I have ever used from Microsoft so far, why it took them so long to deliverer something that just works I will never know. ie still crap however  :) thank god for firefox!) . To me AmigaOS4 offers the closest thing to my dream, I still would like to see a bit more work put in making it more backwards compatible maybe we will in a future update.

Offline Digiman

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2010, 02:35:16 PM »
Exactly! Get a PC and install OS/2 then because IBM gave Commodore AREXX and Commodore gave IBM some ideas and permission to use certain Amiga software methods in their OS.

I have an Amiga to play Amiga games, cost is not an issue because emulation via WinUAE is not the same thing (for a start USB joypads are just wrong) and well if you ever played the crappy DOS ports of Cinemaware games then you see why you need an Amiga to play Rocket Ranger in its most superior form (as well as all the other Cinemaware games)

I can play Donkey Kong or Rainbow Islands on MAME sure but Amiga had some games that were actually far far superior on Amiga compared to any other format.

I am not interested in Iggy's proposed machine, if I can't load my actual original floppy disk games on it anymore then it's not an Amiga for me :)

As for 256 colours not being enough....what do we do with all the awesome 64/128 colour arcade games like Gauntlet then? Seeing as there isn't a single update of this game, or Gauntlet 2, worth playing or even a rip-off that comes close to it why should I not play it because it doesn't have 24bit colour? Does Xbox live version of Gauntlet look much better with 4x resolution and smoothed out graphics? Nope.

Same with Amiga games. And when was 256 colour a limit for Amiga video files...we do have HAM6 and HAM8 to play with too you know.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 02:43:36 PM by Digiman »
 

Offline AmigaNG

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2010, 02:47:30 PM »
Hardware wise doesn't really both me much, as performance, well I've seen amigaones running and sams system, the OS seem pretty nippy to me, so I think performance wise when the x1000 arrives wont be a problem, availability of hardware also not a problem, you can go and buy a sam system now, there are a few second hand systems out their too, the biggest problem I see is cost, custom hardware and small quantity is always going to be a problem, but if more people bought and supported amiga ppc computers the price would come down, plus the price of second hand amiga ppc systems are coming down and isn't it a bit more cooler that the Amiga is being different to everyone else, that Amiga systems are nearly custom made. To me that makes it even more an Amiga system. If only aeon or acube could make a cheap ppc system for around the £300 mark I believe all this talk of x86 vs PPC would be over.

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2010, 02:49:46 PM »
Quote from: AmigaNG;602431
i have to ask why some of the people are here, if you really want a true next generation Amiga OS that hold on to nothing of its past and works differently and modern then go and join BeOS or QNX community's both OS have been compared to what a modern AmigaOS should perhaps be, but that's the point if you change so much of the OS is it really Amiga any more and I know where going into a topic that has been covered 100's of times what makes an Amiga, an Amiga?

But to me the reason I'm still here is because of way the OS is layout and works, its just simple, I like the drag screen affects, I like access to my ram disk and I like a lot of other little touch here and their that make it an Amiga experiences, some of the legacy apps like deluxe paint and scalos I still love using and yes the classic games as well.

All I want is a OS that works the same way my current Amiga works but it can not only play the classic stuff but can do some more modern things like play DVDs, handle the new media formats, surf the net, and bring back some of the fun I use to have with computers that sadly disappeared the day I had to move to windows. (saying that however windows7 I must admit to it being the best thing I have ever used from Microsoft so far, why it took them so long to deliverer something that just works I will never know. ie still crap however  :) thank god for firefox!) . To me AmigaOS4 offers the closest thing to my dream, I still would like to see a bit more work put in making it more backwards compatible maybe we will in a future update.


 Interesting, I don't think the poster after you got your point, but I did and let me say I glad to see at least one poster has whatn I consider the valid alternative to the "we gotta keep the same hardware" line of thought.
You are absolutely right! AOS4 is a legitimate sucessor to the Amiga legacy (and I think AROS and MorphOS are valid too).
The platforms different, but its BETTER. And the OS has all the system call and design features to make an Amiga programmer feeel right at home.

And it looks great. Anyone the pretends that eye candy isn't appealing isn't being honest.
And yes, we've had to give up some of the legacy software, but its amazing how much of it we can run and in the future that compatibility is only likely to improve.

Hey, there may be a day when all legacy apps run seemlessly under AROS like native X86 apps.

Heres a prediction, no matter how strong your personal attachment to your legacy hardware is and no matter how deeply your feelings run, soon we will be fully capable of running all your software and a host of BETTER software on modern platforms that are truly competitive.  Then your arguements for Amiga forever will look as valid as Apple II fiorever. Life evolves. Get with the program.

Jim
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Offline Fats

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2010, 03:07:26 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602414

And using VHDL to develop silicon would not be the optimal way to design an ASIC.


What do you mean ? Do you want to place every transistor by hand ? Or are you referring to the higher level languages (SystemC or SystemVerilog) ?
For medium size ASICs I think RTL languages like VHDL or Verilog are still the right thing to use.

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Offline Fats

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2010, 03:11:22 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602414
That is strictly a matter of opinion, as the hardware requires reconfiguration each time it is restarted, its still relying on a software program that configures it.Whether the hardware "becomes" what the code tells it to or is programmed it emulate it is a matter of interpretation.


But if I make an Altera Hardcopy version of the design it magically tranform into  'real' hardware just because it does not need a Flash to get started ? And the same if I would use some of the Flash based FPGAs or a one time programmable FPGA ?

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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2010, 03:25:22 PM »
I think AmigaNG nailed it in that it all comes down to the "what makes an Amiga an Amiga" question. Personally, I fall closer to the opposite end of the spectrum: to me, the Amiga is about an elegant hardware architecture that was designed alongside and tightly integrated with an elegant system-software architecture, running on a very nice, assembler-friendly CPU. While I don't disagree that AmigaOS is a fine piece of software (though I haven't used 4+ and can't really speak for that,) it's just one of the components - removing any of them significantly diminishes the appeal for me. That's why Linux/Amix on the Amiga is more of a "oh, look at that" novelty, PPC accelerators hold no interest for me, and stuff like AROS on a PC is kind of boring.

That's not to say that I begrudge devotees of any of the above their own little triumphs, but it does make me wonder, if the software is so plainly what matters, why bother retaining any hardware compatibility, especially going to all the bother of designing a new system around an old processor?

Quote from: Iggy;602436
Heres a prediction, no matter how strong your personal attachment to your legacy hardware is and no matter how deeply your feelings run, soon we will be fully capable of running all your software and a host of BETTER software on modern platforms that are truly competitive. Then your arguements for Amiga forever will look as valid as Apple II fiorever. Life evolves. Get with the program.
And this is what I really don't understand. If you feel like this about legacy hardware, why are you essentially proposing to build what amounts to a different kind of legacy hardware? The oldschool 68k processors are out of production, stop at 32-bit data bus width, and don't go above 100MHz. If your attitude towards legacy hardware is "get over it and move on," why go to all this trouble? Why not just go with an existing board for a modern architecture and save yourself time, money, and trouble?

(And no, I won't "get with the program," thanks. Some of us value the full Amiga architecture more than being "truly competitive.")
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 03:31:16 PM by commodorejohn »
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Offline Franko

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2010, 03:44:43 PM »
@ Iggy

Quote
Sorry. I'll try to ignore Franko's squirrely wrath


It's ok just fed the squiggles for today and had me breakfast (nice greasy fry up, even though it is 3:30pm here) so everyone this end is happy and content right now... :)

Me and you shall just have to agree to differ on this subject and call a truce here, best for us both (and the other members who have to read this stuff) to withdraw graciously from the field of battle and settle for a draw... :)

Keep on with you idea/project and don't let me or anyone else discourage you are after all trying to actively do something in a manner that you think is best and for that I salute you sir... :)

(just try please and get you idea across without dissing AGA so much and telling folk to go play with their toys... ;))

Best Regards... :)

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Offline Hattig

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2010, 03:51:34 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602414
And using VHDL to develop silicon would not be the optimal way to design an ASIC.

It's only how a lot of companies actually do their work. Even AMD's Bobcat x86-64 core is VHDL - yeah, it costs them some potential clock speed, but the benefits outweigh the downsides for them. ARM cores are designed in VHDL as well. I expect a lot of other cores are - CPU, GPU, etc. Designing custom silicon these days needs a lot of resources. Anyway, who would care, Natami/FPGAArcade Minimig as custom silicon would run very fast even if made on an ancient 250nm process.

Edit: Must reiterate that it would still be very costly and highly unlikely to happen, hence the FPGA solutions which will still end up thrashing a classic Amiga into the ground in terms of performance and features - and at least the hardware can be updated with bugfixes! We can all hope a Chinese knock-off company makes an Amiga-in-a-joystick ASIC one day that we can hack apart like the C64-in-a-joystick :-)

Btw, Franko - I don't think that Natami will be 100% compatible with classic Amiga software, especially demos and games that really hit the hardware and do timing incorrectly (assume 68k clocks, rather than use hardware timers, etc). Maybe there will be an A500 level core developed in due course to allow that, but don't expect it out of the box.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 04:03:53 PM by Hattig »
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2010, 03:57:28 PM »
Quote from: Franko;602459
@ Iggy



It's ok just fed the squiggles for today and had me breakfast (nice greasy fry up, even though it is 3:30pm here) so everyone this end is happy and content right now... :)

Me and you shall just have to agree to differ on this subject and call a truce here, best for us both (and the other members who have to read this stuff) to withdraw graciously from the field of battle and settle for a draw... :)

Keep on with you idea/project and don't let me or anyone else discourage you are after all trying to actively do something in a manner that you think is best and for that I salute you sir... :)

(just try please and get you idea across without dissing AGA so much and telling folk to go play with their toys... ;))

Best Regards... :)

Franko


Yes Franko, it must just be the Irish in me looking for a fight where there isn't one. What do you expect from people chronically malnourished for centuries under the 'kindly" rule of the British?

I I DO so much enjoy your posts and perspective (although I ain't eating the hagis - what the heck were you Scots thinking - ugh!)
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Offline Hattig

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2010, 04:05:58 PM »
Haggis is lovely.

But they're a pain to catch, running across the hills in their wild natural state.
 

Offline IggyTopic starter

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Re: ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.
« Reply #44 from previous page: December 28, 2010, 04:12:42 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;602454
I think AmigaNG nailed it in that it all comes down to the "what makes an Amiga an Amiga" question. Personally, I fall closer to the opposite end of the spectrum: to me, the Amiga is about an elegant hardware architecture that was designed alongside and tightly integrated with an elegant system-software architecture, running on a very nice, assembler-friendly CPU. While I don't disagree that AmigaOS is a fine piece of software (though I haven't used 4+ and can't really speak for that,) it's just one of the components - removing any of them significantly diminishes the appeal for me. That's why Linux/Amix on the Amiga is more of a "oh, look at that" novelty, PPC accelerators hold no interest for me, and stuff like AROS on a PC is kind of boring.

That's not to say that I begrudge devotees of any of the above their own little triumphs, but it does make me wonder, if the software is so plainly what matters, why bother retaining any hardware compatibility, especially going to all the bother of designing a new system around an old processor?


And this is what I really don't understand. If you feel like this about legacy hardware, why are you essentially proposing to build what amounts to a different kind of legacy hardware? The oldschool 68k processors are out of production, stop at 32-bit data bus width, and don't go above 100MHz. If your attitude towards legacy hardware is "get over it and move on," why go to all this trouble? Why not just go with an existing board for a modern architecture and save yourself time, money, and trouble?

(And no, I won't "get with the program," thanks. Some of us value the full Amiga architecture more than being "truly competitive.")

I agree with you on all points and have no intention of giving up my PPC hardware (even though X86 is tempting and the future might be in ARM).

And I don't begrudge the diehard Amiga loyalists their attachment to their legacy hardware. The fact that it can still be used productively is a testament to the integrity of the original concept.
Lord knows I would NOT want to have to suffer with an old PC, but an Amiga would still retain its appeal.

I do get frustrated at times with the negative take so many of you have on NG systems. Not your cup of tea? Hey, that's cool, but it is mine. I've the fact that I've got a fair level of legacy compatibility (which is constantly increasing) and I can play games like QuakeIII.

Doom on an Amiga was cool for its time, but fragging someone online with more mordern graphics just makes me smile.

And I appologize for posting the Ambient screen shot on Franko's thread. Its not fair to compare hardware that is seperated by that many years of development. I mean, yeah, it looks cools, but when I look at the workbench screens you guys are posting all I can think is "Windows didn't look this good for several generation and Mac was Black & White - Damn that still looks modern".
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"