ECS, AGA, Workbench? No I don't hate them.

[motorollin]

Amiga video is out of date ... clinging to this outdated tech ... retain certain games (and maybe a few other pieces of poorly written software that bangs hardware directly) ... working so hard to recreate dated obsolete software that hasn't been updated in over a decade

All of those things are part of a retro computing hobby. I don't really understand why this is such a problem for you.

--
moto

[Buzzfuzz]

So isn't the video of Amiga OS4.1 not photorealistic enough ?
[youtube]khS4TcsZ1nM[/youtube]
 
If you want Workbench 3.1/3.5/3.9 to look like that, it is possible.
My OS3.9 has a normal background picture, ok it's an Amiga 4000 Micronick tower with a Cyberstorm 060/PPC 50/200 with 128MB and Cyberstorm Vision PPC card, but yeah, looks realistic enough.
I even got a good AmigaAmp mp3 player and looking at a fantasy landscape background.
The photo is as real as on a PC or Mac.
 
Why are we still stuck in 2D, while everything is 3D and even touchable and in the near future even smellable ?
 
If you want to take Workbench to the extreme, talk to these guys:
http://www.obscuradigital.com/technology/

[fishy_fiz]

I only read the original post, so I appologize if other people have covered similar points.....

Firstly, from one side of the coin, sure, what you say is true enough, but you seem to be completely disregarding the fact that generally people dont expect custom chipset based amigas to compete in certain areas. Some people (myself included) enjoy working within those limitations. It's a challenge to see what results can be obtained with an old system. Especially one as flexible as the Amiga. Not only that but a machine, regardless of how powerful it is, is only as productive as the person behind the helm, and as dated as most of it is, a lot of classic amiga software can obtain good results, and as quickly as machines with hundreds/thousands of times the raw power.

Personally, besides 68k based systems Im predominately an AROS guy. Im interested in both MOS and OS4.x, but I dont have the hardware anymore. Have been verging on buying a mac and a license for MOS, but havent gotten around to it yet. After a while of using AROS (for no reason other than availability in the beginning) it becomes about the journey as much as anything. All slightly off topic, but written for the point of backstory.
My AROS machine is a Core2duo @3.86ghz + 1 gig geforce9600 gt + 2 gig dual channel ddr2@1066 is, in Amiga terms quite a hefty machine. Even in terms of modern pcs it's only a few steps behind the modern grade. With AROS I have access to 2d + 3d acceleration, better video player, better web browsing,... typically more up to date features. Despite this however I couldnt refrain from also installing amithlon/os3.9 as AROS, as much as I like it and see it as the likely "future" of amiga simply doesnt offer me things I like that an os3.x based machine does. It's more powerful for me because I know amiblitz and other 68k development tools better than I know c/c++ and amiga native apis, despite only giving me 40-50% the raw speed, and me having to use a much weaker video card (4 meg matrox g200 pci vs  1024 meg gf 9600gt pci express).

And perhaps a little ironically, I still find myself wishing I had a classic amiga instead as amithlon, while very good, still doesnt offer me the complete functionality of a real 68k amiga.

Anyway, I guess if there's a point it's just re-itterating, with a real example or 2, that it's not always about raw power and modern features.
Somewhat ironic though dont you think that a person using a 2nd hand mac, quite behind the times is having problems with people enjoying thier own old computers ?

[Kesa]

The trouble with this place is it gets harder and harder to spot the trolls from the poeple who just have a halfbaked idea an present it in a defensive/offensive way.

Me, I'm one of the trollish kind. I think Iggy might be the latter? :oP

To be honest my biggest problem with this place is the poor grammer that has surfacing recently. No offence to you coldfish but after reading a couple of posts on a different thread (i think it was about AGA) i started getting a little confused. Not about the topic but the grammer that was used. I think technical talk about computer hardware is confusing enough without having to try and understand poor grammer as well

[vidarh]

THe thing the amiga community needs to sort out is:

Are we recreating the past?

Are we building something for the future?


Once everybody has settled on that, and settled on being hobby projects rather than some sort of fabled return of the promised land, we can move forward (or backward)

You're not going to get everynone to settle on that, because people have entirely different goals. They can co-exist, but don't expect everyone to move in the same direction. When has Amiga users ever done that anyway?

[Buzzfuzz]

You're not going to get everynone to settle on that, because people have entirely different goals. They can co-exist, but don't expect everyone to move in the same direction. When has Amiga users ever done that anyway?

For me, the Amiga is a game machine, I don't need it to be a supercomputer with touch interface, but I wouldn't mind
 
You can't compare your Amiga to a PC or Mac, it's that simpel.
Although some wish it can do as much, you won't get there untill someone actually starts to put in the work.
If there is someone who can do the hardware, it's Jens.
Look at what the ACA is doing to the accelerator market already.
Now only we need someone to do the software.

[Hattig]

But let's face facts guys. Amiga video is out of date.

It's 2010 Iggy, of course something released in 1992 is going to be out of date.

This thread is totally stupid.

[Hattig]

Oh, and btw, your attack on emulation? I remember you positively responding on the Natami. Hate too disappoint you (or ciontradict Thomas) but FPGAs ARE emulating hardware (so its no more a real Amiga than Amiga forever).

No they are not. They are a re-implementation of the hardware, rather than software emulating the hardware running on an underlying OS and hardware that can't allow perfect emulation. Many people are interested by FPGAArcade and Natami, not because they think they will be up-to-date computers but because they will allow them to continue their Amiga hobby.

This thread is just set up because Franko actually responded to you in the other thread, and you didn't like it and you're having a stroppy hissy fit.

[fishy_fiz]

It's 2010 Iggy, of course something released in 1992 is going to be out of date.

This thread is totally stupid.

We dont want none of yoor kind,.... damned "logicals" thinks thems can come in and wreck a perfectly good rant  

[Hammer]

Franko, feel free to go trolling whereever you feel you must. I just hope you don't divert too many of the post with a point (like the one before yours).

And its yor opinion that my posts haven't been positive. My posts only reflect my disappointment at the failure of our community to evolve and expand.

As mentioned in the post before yours, I guess I'm on the side of new evolving systems.

And btw, if you're hoping for 100% compatibility with the Natami you're bound to be disappointed since there isn't 100% compatibility amongst all Amigas.

I'm logging off for the night. We can take this up tomorrow. Take care old man.

Natami is basically a FPGA based PC i.e. Amiga program compatibility is not a large issue.

[Iggy]

No they are not. They are a re-implementation of the hardware, rather than software emulating the hardware running on an underlying OS and hardware that can't allow perfect emulation. Many people are interested by FPGAArcade and Natami, not because they think they will be up-to-date computers but because they will allow them to continue their Amiga hobby.

This thread is just set up because Franko actually responded to you in the other thread, and you didn't like it and you're having a stroppy hissy fit.

Sorry. I'll try to ignore Franko's squirrely wrath. And no, this thread was created because more than one person's posts made me think about Franko's question and other things that have troubled me.

BTW - An FPGA is a programmable gate array. everytime you start it you have to re-load the software that allows it to emulate the target hardware. So, no, the Natami is not a reimplementation of the Amiga (unless your willing to concede that that can be done via software). A true reimplementation of the Amiga (in dedicated silicon) would be much more expensive to develop than the Natami. It would also be faster, wouldn't require loading an FPGA on boot, and in volume it would be cheaper to produce. But, that's never going to happen since, as was pointed out, at this point Amiga's are mainly a hobby to the majority of you.

OK, let me thank those of you who have made some supportive statements. It is absolutely true that I am at the other end of the Amiga spectrum from Frankp.*What I'd dearly wish to get across to him is that our differences of opinion in no way diminish the regard and fondness I hold for the guy. But i do believe Amiga's can continue to evolve. AGA was not the end, RTG is an improvement in display quality. Workbench was fine when it was current, but there are replacements for it. And to the post on AOS4, in what way do you think I don't agree with you. I LOVE AOS4 (even though I'm a MorphOS user). NG systems prove the Amiga can continue to develop and flourish.

As NG systems become more advanced, I do expect to see them become competent daily use systems. Will they be competitive with PCs and MACs? Well without the resources of a large backer that would be difficult. But look how good they look now. Its not impossible, it could happen.

I'm leaving the house right now to take my wife to work. When I get back, I'll post my initial 68K proposal. Take care all.

Jim

[motorollin]

poor grammer

... (i think it was about AGA) i started getting a little confused.

Pfft...

--
moto

[Hattig]

BTW - An FPGA is a programmable gate array. everytime you start it you have to re-load the software that allows it to emulate the target hardware. So, no, the Natami is not a reimplementation of the Amiga (unless your willing to concede that that can be done via software).

The 'software' is hardware description language. It deals with electrical signals and circuits - "on a rising signal, do XYZ", etc.

It compiles to a logic circuit (or how to configure the FPGA's circuitry to behave - in hardware - as the logic circuits described). You can compile the VHDL into silicon itself, use that to create an ASIC, and there you have your native hardware. The FPGA doesn't RUN the compiled VHDL, it becomes it.

It isn't emulation. It's a re-implementation. There is a world of difference.

[Iggy]

The 'software' is hardware description language. It deals with electrical signals and circuits - "on a rising signal, do XYZ", etc.

It compiles to a logic circuit (or how to configure the FPGA's circuitry to behave - in hardware - as the logic circuits described). You can compile the VHDL into silicon itself, use that to create an ASIC, and there you have your native hardware. The FPGA doesn't RUN the compiled VHDL, it becomes it.

It isn't emulation. It's a re-implementation. There is a world of difference.

That is strictly a matter of opinion, as the hardware requires reconfiguration each time it is restarted, its still relying on a software program that configures it.Whether the hardware "becomes" what the code tells it to or is programmed it emulate it is a matter of interpretation.

And using VHDL to develop silicon would not be the optimal way to design an ASIC.

Now I'm going to drop this unproductive topic a move to the post I promised.

[Buzzfuzz]

NG systems prove the Amiga can continue to develop and flourish.
 
As NG systems become more advanced, I do expect to see them become competent daily use systems. Will they be competitive with PCs and MACs? Well without the resources of a large backer that would be difficult. But look how good they look now. Its not impossible, it could happen.

There you have it, if someone puts in a hell of lot of time, then this could be a future Amiga fans can build on.
 
If you truly want to take the OS to a new level then it has to become open source first.
If Hyperion still keeps hanging on to it themselves, we are not going to get far.
They have done some work on the Classic verision of 4.1, but with open source it could grow a lot faster.
 
As for hardware, I think we need to let go of the PPC ideas, cause cleary we are not going to get the internal code writing from DCE.
Even if they were to release it, the processor is just too outdated and too slow.
Also Motorola 68K proccesors need to go if you truly want a future.
 
We need to be looking at just modernday processors and write the software to that platform, it shouldn't be that hard considering we allready do it with WinUAE and again on open source, it will get done a lot faster.
 
We can hang on to the idea of other processors running our Amiga software or we can say: If you can't beat them, join them!
The hardware will be the same then, but the software won't.
 
No it won't be able to beat Windows, Mac Os and Linux, but just maybe it could end up in the top 5 of used OS'es.

[Iggy]

OK, why would I want to build a system that runs AOS with a 68K processor without the Amiga chipset?
This relates directly to my objections on the AGA design and Amiga evolution in general.
The original Lorraine concept is very elegant. It takes a very powerful microprocessor and combines it with a group of custom chips the off load some of the work that other systems would leave to the processor. This does not mean that the 68K couldn't handle those tasks.
The Atari ST managed with a far less competent chipset using the power of the 68K (and if it had a flaw, it was limited colors and screen resolution).
Brute force can work when a processor has enough power to handle these task adquately.

My own experience with that concept, running the day to day operations of Delmar Company in Middletown Delaware in the late 80's and early 90's. We worked with Peripheral Technologies in Marietta Georgia to produce a line of 68000 and 68020 computer that used an ISA bus (allowing us to use standard PC cards). There were 6809 and V20 coprocessor cards available and toward the end of it development and 68030 system and a revamped 6809 card (with a Tandy Color Computer 3 ASIC on it) were underdevelopment.
Like the Amiga, our systems were multi-tasking, but they were also multi-user. The base system (our 'terminal' system) has four RS-232 ports to support VT100 or VT52 terminal and was primarily marketed asfor use in applications like Point of sales systems.
However, we also offered an alternative system (that could still support additional terminals) that had a Tseng Labs ET4000 based video card, a PC keyboard and a mouse. we also contracted with a developer who had developed Windowing software for Gespac (another early Motorola based system builder) to port his Windowing package to our systerm.

What do any of this have to do with the topic? Well our brute force systems support five concurrent users, one of which had access to a GUI based interface that offered the same number of colors as an Amiga and the same display modes as a VGA PC.
I can't compare the two systems as their target markets were different (and the Amiga was definately a superior multimedia platform), but I'm proud of what our small group of companies managed to create.

And in on area, I think we had an edge over the Amiga. All our dsoftware access to our hardware ran through device drivers, meaning we weren't tied to specific hardware (as the Amiga is so firmly wedded to AGA).

Now, why is the Amiga chipset (which in the original Amiga was such an asset) a liability in later Amigas?
Because while the processors in later Amigas became faster and much more powerful, the chipset remained essentially the same. What was fast enough to assist a standard 68000, became a liability to an 020, 030, or 060 because it was SLOW inrelation to those processors. By the time you've reached the 68060 you would have been better off with the chipset and simply rewriting the OS to use retargetable drivers for alternate hardware. You guys don't get it, the chipset slows down later Amigas. And AGA made that WORSE.

So, that, in a nutshell would be my arguement for scrapping the chipset. Natami sounds good and 100% cpmpatibility sounds great until you realize that no other system has bothered to do this because it carries liabilities as well.

So what would I like as an final 68K based Amigiod system? Well 68060 50Mhz chips are still plentiful and cheap. An ISA bus would be another liability, but a PCI bus at 33Mhz would be a definate improvement over the sppeds the the Amiga chipset communicates at. A PCI graphics card for RG graphics (doesn't even have to be that modern a Voodoo3 or a Radeon 9000 would be fine, a modern stereo Audio codec would be useful (but might be cheaper as a PCI add on card) and other accesories (drive controllers, usb cards, etc) also might make more sense as cheap add on cards.

Now I appologize for the length of the post. I've edited it once so I've already read Toneoo7's comment after this. Who would buy it? Good question. I can buy a complete ARM system for $200 (which would be about the target price for what I'm thinking of) and the ARM system would be much more powerful and just as capable of run Amiga software.
But I like the idea of a low cost 68K system that relies on a real 68K processor I'm certain that it would be faster than any legacy Amiga (and yes its only compatible with OS friendly RTG compatible software).

After the negative posts, I've decided to pursue a proof of concept prototype. The only thing I ask is that you don't judge my ideas until I've had a chance to prove myself (or through my actions, disprove myself).

Jim