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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« on: March 26, 2014, 04:54:16 PM »
Tips on running Linux: don't. It's a bloated mess of an operating system made of forty years of layered kludges to take it from driving serial terminals on PDP-11s to running a graphical desktop on modern PCs, the UI for Linux and Linux software alike is universally mediocre-to-vomitous, and there's typically three or four different versions of every software package tailored for every desktop environment except the one you're using, with at least a one-in-fifty chance that installing one will break some other completely unrelated program because of ridiculously arcane dependency trees. Stick with XP.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2014, 05:19:53 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;761279
Sounds like you are describing UNIX, because Linux hasn't been around for forty years.
And Linux continues to evolve.
Linux hasn't been around for forty years, but it slavishly reimplements the twenty-plus years of UNIX cruft it adopted wholesale in its initial development. And it continues to "evolve" only in the sense of piling on more layers of cruft in an attempt to be a modern desktop OS without having to revise the design to fit that goal.

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Linux is no more kludged than Windows.
Ohhhh yes it is.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2014, 05:38:09 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;761282
Your opinion.
[youtube]pWdd6_ZxX8c[/youtube]
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2014, 06:44:45 PM »
Quote from: cgutjahr;761285
Maybe you guys can take the "Linux sucks" discussion to some other thread?
Maybe not. ral-clan is a Windows user looking at maybe switching to Linux, which is exactly where I was two and a half years ago, and I put weeks of time and effort into the endeavor, only to discover that it isn't good, doesn't get better with familiarity, and I'd have made better use of that time banging my head against a brick wall. I'm just trying to save him the pain.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2014, 08:39:18 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;761299
Geeze, some of you guys, just negativity, negativity, negativity. Instead of bashing everything, how about suggest another operating system he could try?  :angry:
There's no reason we can't both bash Linux and suggest other options, you know. I've already suggested sticking with XP; another alternative might be to run 32-bit 7 and copy XP's explorer.exe over it (never tried this myself, but I understand it works.) ReactOS and Haiku are two OSes I've had my eye on for a while, but ReactOS has been stuck in alpha for a long time, and Haiku, while more complete (though they still label it as "alpha,") suffers from a dearth of software.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2014, 02:15:40 AM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;761324
As soon as I read commodorejohn's first post, I dismissed him, to put it mildly since I'm a moderator, as a ill-informed and .
Aww, you do care!

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Each has their pros and cons, just like each version of Windows, except without the virus/malware problems.
...and with a mass of terrible UI and configuration/dependency issues that occur at random, so it's at best a lateral move.

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Its come such a long way since '92.  Back then I had to dig around and fix dependencies on my own and any help came with a RTFM in irc chat days.  Fast forward to today...
...where that's still entirely the case if you attempt to do anything other than install pre-configured software from the repository, and occasionally even then, and the cat-calls of "RTFM noob!" are as strong as ever...
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2014, 05:08:29 AM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;761335
Libre office is not a Linux problem.  Direct that to the correct dev team and not towards Linux.
A modified form of the "It's Just A Kernel!" argument, which, as ever, is irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether or not it's "part of Linux," it's what Linux users are stuck with. Even if LibreOffice isn't part of Linux per se, it's one of the only alternatives Linux users have to MS Office, and the one most frequently put forward by the Linux community, and it does not cut the mustard - just like the GIMP, just like tons of other shoddily-designed Linux software that the Linux developer community has gotten to a point of "basically feature-complete" and then dropped in the laps of prospective users, because they know Linux needs to have it to draw in users but they don't think it needs to be good, because in the world of Linux the users exist for the benefit of the OS and not the other way around.

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Your link doesn't work. Fix it, I'm interested in reading it.  Some people don't have the aptitude or willingness to learn something new and stick with the simplest, no matter how archaic.
Or, alternatively, some people don't have any patience for putting up with pointless bullshít when there's other alternatives out there that don't demand that of them.

Quote from: TheMagicM;761337
Really?  That's definitely incorrect.  The only  somewhat difficult UI issues I've read or seen is when users try to  install a different window manager like Enlightenment or whatever isn't a  default wm like Gnome 2/3 etc.
If you haven't seen people having serious issues with Linux, you haven't  looked. There are plenty of widely-recognized issues with Linux UI, and  they all spring from the same ultimate source: 1. XWindows only  handles low-level drawing. 2. Since XWindows only handles  low-level drawing, toolkits have to be developed to display UI  components and handle user interaction with them. 3. Anytime  toolkits have to be developed, the Linux developer community will come  up with at least three mutually-incompatible toolkits to accomplish the  exact same thing. 4. Since there are at least three toolkits that  do the same thing, the odds of any two applications using the same  toolkit are no better than 33%. 5. Since the problem encompasses  not merely two applications, but dozens or hundreds, since many other  aspects of UI rely not on the toolkit, but on the programmer, and since  most programmers don't actually care about UI at all except in that it  gets people to use the cool backend code they wrote, 6.  basically nothing behaves consistently with anything  else. Except when you use one of the overblown  multi-application suites developed to address this, in which case there's still plenty of bad design decisions and you lose the consistency anyway when you inevitably need an application that isn't part of the suite.

You can argue all you like that you don't notice this, but that won't change the fact that it's an issue for people who haven't spent twenty years forcibly acclimating themselves to bad UI.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 06:20:34 AM by commodorejohn »
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2014, 04:03:31 PM »
Quote from: polyp2000;761352
@commodorejohn have you forgotten what happened last time you started bashing Linux in a thread like this. I think you are entitled to your own opinions but your ugly head seems to rear itself at the very mention of Linux.
I'll rear my "ugly head" any damn place it's relevant, thankyou. And given that ral-clan is a Windows user curious about the Linux experience, and has specifically stated that he wants to hear opinions from all sides, it's certainly relevant here.

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Quite frankly I don't know how you managed to have such bad experiences! Your comments may have had some merit 10 years ago. We have heard them all before. Please can you try and tone it down or bite your lips?
Ten years my ass, these issues were as bad as ever as recently as November 2011, when I finally threw up my hands after some seven years of periodic migration attempts and gave up on Linux altogether. As for "toning it down," this is the toned-down version. What you really want is for me to not say anything bad about Linux at all.

And once again, a Linux advocate thinks that "well I haven't noticed any problems, so I don't see how anybody else could take issue!" is a meaningful argument...

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The original post has made a decision to try a new OS and was asking for tips. Not to hear the bitter ramblings from the king of Linux hate "commodorejohn"
I'm trying to save a fellow forum member the time and headache I experienced in basically the same situation. I don't really give two shíts what you think about it.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2014, 04:04:27 PM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;761355
Strange because my dad, myself and people I know  who use Linux have *never* had anything like that happen.  My dad has  had completely different machines every 3 years or so because I just  like buying better systems.  No issues.  Dunno why you had yours.  

I agree.  But I disagree when people start bring back issues from 1990  or because of their own shortcomings or issues they created themselves  which caused the problems in the first place.
And once again, the "I don't notice any problems, therefore the  problems that you experience can't possibly exist or must somehow be your fault!" argument...

Quote from: TheMagicM;761357
I'm just adding the correct spin on it when it  seems as though anything new other than Amiga and Windows gets bashed by  users who havent left their pigeon hole.
This is absolute horseshít and you know it. Tons of people here embrace  possibilities other than Amiga and Windows; there's a bunch of OSX  users, there's RiscOS devotees, and I myself have already mentioned that  I like where Haiku's going. What you mean by "anything new gets bashed"  is "people say bad things about Linux, and I don't like that." That's  enough of a non-argument as it is, but you could at least own up to it.

Quote from: TheMagicM;761358
Ok.  Then Linux isnt for *you* specifically.   Thats fine.  Just dont ruin other peoples enjoyment of trying something  different because of your personal shortcomings.
If people have their enjoyment ruined simply because someone on the Internet is saying mean things about something they like, they need to grow a thicker skin. And in this case, that's just you and polyp2000; ral-clan himself has specifically said that he wants to hear all views on the issue.

Quote from: TCMSLP;761359
If you have any doubt about the quality of such  software then check out some of the Blender videos:-
Check out the Blender interface - it's designed for space aliens, by space aliens. The technical underpinnings may be excellent, but they're accessible only via a poorly-designed UI, which is a lot of Linux software in a nutshell.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 07:47:12 PM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;761389
So you dont even want him to try it.  Just want him to give up.  Momma raised a quitter, huh?
You're such a charmer, you are. Of course I'm not telling him he can't, I just think that, as he's coming from a similar place as I was with similar goals, in my experience he'd be better off not bothering.

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After those two posts, I can surmise you're just a troll doing trolly things.  Not trying to actually post any LOGIC and REAL reason as to the pros and cons of linux..just trolling thru AO because of your lack of abilities at learning new things.  No problem.  I was wrong and thought you had something constructive to say, but after wasting a few minutes of my time and reading your drivel, all you do is resort to cursing and crying when someone says Linux is great.
Not trying to post any real reasons like when I laid out the hows and whys of why Linux UI is terrible? Right.

When in doubt, whine "well you're just a troll!" That's the law of the Internet, boys and girls.

(And maybe throw in a cry of "also you're dumb for not wanting to learn how to live with badly-designed software!" while you're at it. Despite the fact that I spent some seven years trying to do exactly that.)

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And once again, the "I have problems, therefore the problems that I experience must somehow be Linux fault!" argument...
^^^^ See what I did there?
Yes, you blamed the user because you're so protective of a piece of software that you want to protect it from any criticism at all, just like every other Linux zealot on the Internet.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 02:04:06 AM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;761419
I'm not trying to convert ex-users into current users.  Not my battle, not my problem.  People have their own choice.  I just want a level playing field for potential users.  Throwing FUD and seeing what sticks isnt exactly level, so I help tilt it back in the right direction.
I love how discussing real issues that we've experienced firsthand is "throwing FUD" and "tilting the playing field." Yeah, Linux would totally have a fair shot if people would just stop having problems with it!
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 02:18:35 AM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;761424
When babelfish or google translate can convert trollspeak, I'll understand you better.  Till then, its all greek to me.
Classy, man.
[youtube]Cs4Gj7JsET4[/youtube]
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 04:20:08 AM »
Quote from: TheMagicM;761433
You sound like Hitler.  One choice only.
And now the mod who accuses people of trolling simply for disagreeing with him is the one who Godwins the thread. Magnifique.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2014, 10:06:06 PM »
Quote from: Nlandas;761472
LOL! Poor old CJ. Smerf roast.
I'm not going to worry too much about smerf's opinion, he always posts from some parallel universe or other, like this one where I apparently hate PCs despite being fond of Windows XP.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2014, 04:06:08 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;761656
What does that difference have to do with anything?
Oh, if you're a hip, trendy young Internet techie of the type that blindly worships the new, it's crucial!
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup