Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?  (Read 2289 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dagon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 612
    • Show only replies by Dagon
    • http://www.amigasympan.gr/depa
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #14 from previous page: April 16, 2004, 12:11:04 PM »
Quote
ARE YOU NUTS!!!!!  
MOVE TO INDIA!!!!!  
...
they don't have a good quality of life as a result.
India is an IT sweatshop


sweatshop? lol well I wouldn`t blame anyone if he wanted to go to such a "sweatshop".

ECONOMICTIMES.COM
Quote
That was really good news, you moving to India, I mean.

But I don't see why you should feel so depressed about it! India, whether you believe it or not, is the best that can happen to a US techie ;)


No mate, I am not joking. I know, to the average American, India conjures up images of pot-hole filled freeways, unconcerned cattle and pedestrians mixing with unruly traffic, heat, dust, snakes and diseases. I don't blame you. Every US network and newspaper has flown in its star reporters to Bangalore, India's Silicon Valley . And reporters, especially the ones from America, know how to zoom in on the most despicable scenes! Sadly, those reports

There is more to India, brother.

Haven't you read all those reports about unemployed US techies wanting to move to India? Losers, you thought?

I won't be exaggerating if I say techies in India enjoy a demi-god status! Yeah, unlike you American techies.

An Indian techie enjoys a lifestyle even the billionaires in America can only dream of. To start with, their salaries put them in an orbit very few can dream of. When Friedman says in his NYT column that a techie fresh out of college gets paid more than the his parent's earnings, he is not exaggerating.

And Gawd, what a life they lead! They own flashy cars and apartments. They have cooks, chauffeurs, maids, gardeners! Have you even dreamt of having a cook to get your dinner ready when you and your wife get home from your work? Have you ever dreamt of having a maid to take care of your kids? Wouldn't your wife have loved to do some gardening if she had more time?

Nah, I am not kidding, yaar (that's how we Indians address our friends. Time you picked up some Hindustani, instead of your nasal twang!) These guys can afford to have maids, chauffeur-driven cars and cooks. The techie is the Mughal among India's much written about New Economy professionals.

And after all this, they have money to save and invest. Yes, they invest. These guys with downy cheeks. They invest in apartments, property, stock markets!

You have been working for 10 years here in the mecca of capitalism. Do you own a house? Do you save enough to invest in the real estate market? Even after all that social and medical support doled out by the government.

Forget you, even your boss who prides himself as a New Economy pioneer, ask him how much money he has managed to put into his bank account after working like a dog for 15 years.

And don't think they are being paid in gold. They are paid in rupees, man. And a dollar sells for 43 rupees. So imagine what he would be doing if was being paid in dollars! His lifestyle would put even those colonial Englishmen (we call them white sahibs) and their country cousins, the IAS guys (the legacy of our colonial rule) to shame! Now imagine yourself in the shoes of an Indian techie who is paid in dollars. And do you know your dream is just waiting to happen, in India!

And the icing on the cake will be you may be sharing your villa (yes mate, villa) with the high and mighty in Bangalore -- the chief minister could be your neighbour! Now, where did you dream of having Arny as your neighbour?  

Well, here's one last thing that can swing your mind. Do you know there are no terrorists in Bangalore?!

Don't you now envy that Yank couple that was thinking about moving to India?

Don't wait. Log in and get your air ticket booked now.

PS: Do you know headhunters in India are already being swamped by applications from US techies -;)



Quote
Globalisation sucks!!!! The rich get richer and the poor get poorer

Well the facts say that at least the poor get reacher where globalization in in act.

http://www.johannorberg.net/
Quote
GOOD NEWS ON POVERTY: The anti-globalists insist that the poor get poorer. In other words, they keep ignoring the statistics. The World Bank has just made a revised estimate, to be published in World Development Indicators 2004, which shows what we already knew: The proportion of people living in absolute poverty (less than one dollar a day at 1993 purchasing-power parity) is lower than it has ever been before. But the new figures show even more progress than previously known. According to the revised figures, world poverty was reduced from 33% in 1981 to 18% in 2001. This means that almost 400 million people was liberated from absolute poverty in 20 years! And as we already knew, this progress has been led by the globalised East Asian countries, whereas poverty is on the increasee in the anti-globalised African countries.


Do the rich become poorer? well neither that is true. The rich gain with globalization, if it was the contrary they wouldn`t invest in foreign countries. Outsourcing of jobs ultimately benefits the US economy by lowering prices and putting more purchasing power in the hands of consumers.

http://www.adamsmithblog.org/
Quote
US creates more jobs
By Dr Madsen Pirie  3 April 2004    Tax & Economy

The US economy created 308,000 jobs in March, the biggest monthly increase in 4 years, and 3 times expectations. It contrasts with the previous month's figure which was below expectation and which heightened talk of a 'jobless boom.'



\\"So we must exercise ourselves in the things which bring happiness, since, if that be present, we have everything, and, if that be absent, all our actions are directed towards attaining it\\" - Epicurus
 

  • Guest
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2004, 12:23:40 PM »
Basically the best thing to do is get experience. You can
do this by quite easily getting a crappy job doing
"trainee" programming in VB or something. They don't earn
you much, but if you prove your worth, you get quick
raises and the company MAY put you up for doing one of the
Microsoft courses.

The same goes for network engineering and so on: get in on
the ground floor and make the company pay to qualify you
with a Cisco certificate or something. Be eager. Be more
useful than your job requires.

Basically you'll end up with a cushy job where they'll be
sad to lose you, and no debt from universities and so on.
You'll have 3 or 4 years of hard experience *AND* the
paper.

I would dead recommend AGAINST computer science degrees.
Science is theory and hypothesis, and does not apply to
the stark realities of the real world. You want to learn
to code better? Coding in THEORY is all well and good but
it'll be useless for a proper project. You'd do better
taking on a realistic project and devising your own
solutions. Writing and optimising your own code is the best
way to learn to code. A little formal education doesn't
hurt, but you need to do it as an "engineer", rather than
a "scientist".

Neko
 

Offline BigBenAussie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2004
  • Posts: 313
    • Show only replies by BigBenAussie
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2004, 12:52:58 PM »
I never said that Software Engineers don't have it good in India. But you just can't go there and become one either. I'm sure they make you go through hoops just as they do with getting a greencard. But that's beside the point, unless you are Indian, you will always be an outsider there. And that is pretty depressing.

Indians are incredibly clingy to their own and they will find any opportunity to heap {bleep} on you. I work for an Indian company now in the US and let me tell you I'm as depressed as all get out for it. Especially some Bleep telling me to do stuff in broken English who hasn't got a FREAKING clue. Wait until the shoe is on the other foot. Wait until they are your masters and see what you think!!

Just because an IT worker in India can afford so many luxuries does not mean they lead a good life. They are incredibly competitive with eachother to survive to the point of not having a life. Believe me India is better left to Indians.

THE FREAKING WORLD BANK HAS CAUSED MORE MISERY IN THIS WORLD THAN IS CONCEIVABLE!!!!  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:
THEY ARE FULL OF {bleep} AND UP TO THEIR NECKS IN IT!!!
Read some books/articles/videos by journalist Greg Palast.

You must be a republican to fall for such propaganda!!!! Oh, you're Greek. Never mind.
The poor in these countries do not get richer if there's HYPER inflation!!!! Great, this poor guy is now making $15US a week instead of $5US a week but his cost of living has increased orders of magnitude above the pay increase. Statistics like these from the abominable world bank are lies to fulfil their global agenda of world control.

Economic statistics. ITS ALL A CON. Ask yourself who has to gain from the information provided.

:flame:republicans
World Bank:destroy:
 

Offline iamaboringperson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2002
  • Posts: 5744
    • Show only replies by iamaboringperson
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2004, 02:35:51 AM »
Quote

BigBenAussie wrote:
I never said that Software Engineers don't have it good in India. But you just can't go there and become one either. I'm sure they make you go through hoops just as they do with getting a greencard. But that's beside the point, unless you are Indian, you will always be an outsider there. And that is pretty depressing.

Indians are incredibly clingy to their own and they will find any opportunity to heap {bleep} on you. I work for an Indian company now in the US and let me tell you I'm as depressed as all get out for it. Especially some Bleep telling me to do stuff in broken English who hasn't got a FREAKING clue. Wait until the shoe is on the other foot. Wait until they are your masters and see what you think!!

Just because an IT worker in India can afford so many luxuries does not mean they lead a good life. They are incredibly competitive with eachother to survive to the point of not having a life. Believe me India is better left to Indians.

THE FREAKING WORLD BANK HAS CAUSED MORE MISERY IN THIS WORLD THAN IS CONCEIVABLE!!!!  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:
THEY ARE FULL OF {bleep} AND UP TO THEIR NECKS IN IT!!!
Read some books/articles/videos by journalist Greg Palast.

You must be a republican to fall for such propaganda!!!! Oh, you're Greek. Never mind.
The poor in these countries do not get richer if there's HYPER inflation!!!! Great, this poor guy is now making $15US a week instead of $5US a week but his cost of living has increased orders of magnitude above the pay increase. Statistics like these from the abominable world bank are lies to fulfil their global agenda of world control.

Economic statistics. ITS ALL A CON. Ask yourself who has to gain from the information provided.

:flame:republicans
World Bank:destroy:
:lol: Dude! Get off that drug!

You'd be funny in the COFFEE HOUSE forums on amiga.org! Go there!
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show only replies by Floid
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2004, 03:18:45 AM »
It all depends what you want to do.

If you want to be a field tech on through perhaps to a sysadmin, the company certificates are the fastest way toward having someone notice your job application.  The downside is that the programs themselves are, by prerogative, geared to make you little more than a salesperson for the company.

If you want to be an 'engineer' or a 'developer,' it can help to have academic CS training under your belt, if only for the amount of 'networking' and 'headhunting' that goes on as you approach graduate school.  However, even then, nobody's looking out for you except yourself, and you'll have to steer a course through academia that gives you the right courses and the right knowledge; in the US, it's quite possible to come out with a degree in "Computer Science" barely knowing more than how to fire up Visual Studio and/or bust out some Java.  (It's a balancing act.  On the one hand, there's no sense being in college unless you can muster the focus to really 'challenge yourself;' on the other, it's hard enough to find a 'satisfying'/'interesting' job with the fancy piece of paper, unless you've got the energy and skill to start from square one, as did the likes of Apple.)

If you're working to live, the former path can be attractive (but don't expect to take an early retirement, at least, not a voluntary, pensioned one)... If you hope to be able to live through your work (Torvalds, Dillon, Carmack... Dave ;-)), then a full degree sounds like a good idea, and you will have to put in superhuman levels of work to get it.

(This is, of course, from a wholly US perspective; I'll say that Asian academia sounds even harder to navigate successfully vs. American -- though, on the other hand, there are probably fewer fratboys -- and I'm getting the impression that Australia's idea of 'IT' training, be it CS or related degrees, seems to have something going for it, in terms of focusing on the 'right' things without requiring so much effort on the part of the student to avoid being 'educated stupid.')

Of course, I fizzled out trying to get my prerequisites down at second-tier (if that?) schools, and I'm too idealist to sign up to be a MS or Cisco shill (even if that'd probably be quite profitable, compared to being an umemployed slacker... I'm starting to think about getting an A+, just so I can prove to strangers I'm not an idiot, but I'm not sure I want to pay for that), so take my 'advice' with a big heaping grain of salt. ;-)

I'm not sure what Novell's doing with certs, but that might be interesting, because (not entirely unlike Cisco with IP), it's impossible to teach "Linux" without transferring some sort of general knowledge.  Still, I'm saying that as someone who's finally gotten enough *NIX under his belt to know when he might be being bull___tted.

-------

Edit: Clarification on the above -- To aspire to be one of the greats, or anywhere near them, you need both the academic experience and the hands-on 'spare-time' tinkering that I marvel at anyone's ability to find time to do. :-?  I think my mistake was in paying too much attention to high school, when I should've been off hacking!
 

Offline mikrucio

  • Party Mix \'87
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Apr 2004
  • Posts: 375
    • Show only replies by mikrucio
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2004, 03:41:21 AM »
What does all this crap have to do with our beloved machine.............

lets change the topic too:

--Who works with an amiga as job?--

 

Offline justthatgood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2003
  • Posts: 578
    • Show only replies by justthatgood
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2004, 04:04:45 AM »
Personally I would get something like an Electrical Engineering Degree or something.  Some kind of something that is easily transfered.

BTW.  All the greedy CEO's in America that want to sell out their loyal employees, for a quick buck, GO AHEAD!!

I hope the hooker you slept with has atleast 6 STDS.  Your wife/husband divorces you and takes 80% of your income. I hope your children grow up to hate you. I hope you choke on that stock option sandwich you are pigging out on at the expense of the souls of the innocent, and may spend eternity in toasty hell with  2600 baud dialup and Windows 95a.  Good Luck Enron FReaks!!!
[color=008000]Pluto[/color]:Amiga4KD- 64040/16megs/1GB WD/PAR 2150/1942/WB3.0,3.1,3.9
[color=800080]Amanda[/color]:Amiga2KHD/A2620/8MegSupraRam2k/A2091/VLab
 

Offline iamaboringperson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2002
  • Posts: 5744
    • Show only replies by iamaboringperson
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2004, 04:07:10 AM »
Quote

BTW. All the greedy CEO's in America that want to sell out their loyal employees, for a quick buck, GO AHEAD!!

I hope the hooker you slept with has atleast 6 STDS. Your wife/husband divorces you and takes 80% of your income. I hope you children grow up to hate you. I hope you choke on that stock option sandwich you are pigging out on, and may spend eternity in toasty hell with dialup and Windows 95a.
:-? This has turned into coffee house and it really shouldn't.

 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show only replies by Floid
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2004, 04:07:18 AM »
Quote
I would dead recommend AGAINST computer science degrees.
Science is theory and hypothesis, and does not apply to
the stark realities of the real world. You want to learn
to code better? Coding in THEORY is all well and good but
it'll be useless for a proper project. You'd do better
taking on a realistic project and devising your own
solutions. Writing and optimising your own code is the best
way to learn to code. A little formal education doesn't
hurt, but you need to do it as an "engineer", rather than
a "scientist".
Whew, I could really rant about this, but I hope someone's already noticed I've recognized to death the value of 'real' experience.

So, that said, "science" triumphs because science is reproducible.

What science could "reproduce" in 1970 was fairly pathetic, because science didn't know enough.  (Actually, it turns out it did, but moving at the speed of academia, it took a long time for that knowledge to trickle down and around to the right places.)  ... What it did know was too 'expensive' to ever bring to market; note PARC, if you want.

Thus, it took kids in garages and bedrooms to make the 'breakthroughs' that science could then study.  Who knew these "personal computers" would be such a hit at all?

You can't compare Woz and the like directly to Tesla, but for practical purposes, note the parallel.  Early marketers like Commodore and Atari didn't necessarily care how it worked (along the lines of Marconi), and as long as they had "more magic" than anyone else (wrought by purchasing more cool kids, like Amiga), life was good.

Well, today, science is to some extent borne out, both because, faced with the likes of the Apple II and the Amiga (and here's where the flip side came in -- the engineers of both were, of course, better 'scientists' than the scientists!), the big movers threw their scientists at the problems, and because, for absence of science, everyone hoping on miracles had a tendency to piss their money away down blind alleys.

OS/2 and NT were architected by 'scientists;' they flopped in their own ways, and the 'scientists' learned from their mistakes, found patterns in the industry, and so on.  XP and the average Linux desktop environment are both infinitely more 'bloated,' yet they've taken off like wildfire (and run rather nippily in spite of themselves, to boot).  Since their advances are now entrenched in the literature, it's now hard to do worse, though especially in MS's case, the entire planet is now waiting for a slip-up.

There's no sense in fearing science; that amounts to worshipping ignorance.  However, it's only bad scientists who worship science without constantly questioning and testing it.  Maybe it's forthright to bring up Dillon again, but I think it's safe to hold up the cycle of DBSD development as "good science," and I think most of us here can be convinced that that system will/already_does kick a fair bit of a$$ technically. ;-)

At this point, I suppose it's worth pointing out that 'science' has even crept into purchasing departments, to the point that, yes, it's a bit harder to push snake oil these days.  (Or at least, snake oil is held to a slightly higher standard, in terms of maximum-time-before-lawsuit.)  You can still get by pushing it... but do you want to spend your life profiting off the suckers, or earning the respect of the wizards?

...

All that said, the worst CS profs I encountered were the ones trying to teach 'science' while trying to be pragmatic.  It's one thing to remind a student of what happens in the Real World... and another to take Visual Studio as the one true hammer for all the world's screws, even if that is the present state of belief.
 

Offline justthatgood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2003
  • Posts: 578
    • Show only replies by justthatgood
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2004, 04:12:09 AM »
@imaboringperson

I'm sorry, I had to add my lick in it.  You don't have to go through the pain that our idiot president is causing.  You live across the ocean.  He is losing us jobs, losing us friends, losing us respect.  And for what?

I think it's his buddies and his own selfish ego.  I'm sorry if I'm turning it into an adolescent coffee house romp.  But thanks to this guy, that is making education more expensive, making better paying jobs harder to find, I'm a geek stuck working in a factory with people that don't even know out to put type a 10 page document on a computer (some I had to teach them how to turn it on).

Just something to thing about.  

[color=008000]Pluto[/color]:Amiga4KD- 64040/16megs/1GB WD/PAR 2150/1942/WB3.0,3.1,3.9
[color=800080]Amanda[/color]:Amiga2KHD/A2620/8MegSupraRam2k/A2091/VLab
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show only replies by Floid
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2004, 04:14:51 AM »
I was actually hoping for CompE (Computer Engineering), which, depending where you go, is a CS/EE double-major somehow finagled to fit in 4 years.

(I still hope to get one, someday, but at this rate I won't until I'm in my 50s.)

It sounds like a plan, but I'll suggest the following: Don't show up until you already have a firm understanding of the Calculus.

(Of course, maybe my problem was in needing to understand it as a math major would... but after three years of bouncing schools, my algebra and trig skills had rusted out anyway...)  :bigcry:
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show only replies by Floid
Re: IT Education: Degree or Certificate?
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2004, 04:24:03 AM »
It'll only add fire to the flame if I say that, obviously, bringing jobs back to our shores won't necessarily increase literacy (computer or otherwise) one whit, and going isolationist is sure to piss off everyone we've just entered into these happy trade arrangements with...

But, unfortunately, I think the next 50 years are doomed to suck until that wealth gets redistributed one way or another.    

"Knowledge work" is one of the few things that really is portable... but if it helps any, it's absolutely ridiculous to plonk a helpdesk in the middle of 'the wrong culture' vs. the people it's meant to support, and that's already bitten enough posteriors that a correction is hopefully already underway.