Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: curtis on June 09, 2017, 05:17:18 PM
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I currently have an A2000, 10 MB Ram, OS 3.1 and 1.3, Fusion 40 clocking at 40 MHz, Rev 6.2 (I think). Keep hearing talk about the wonderful specs on the Vampire and keep asking myself if I should upgrade.
The main thing I do with my miggy is games but was looking at expanding my use to Web surfing, email, and more general use.
Comments please both pro and con.
Thanks in advance.
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If you are into Amiga gaming and whdload, I suggest you to stay away from the Vampire, as it has a lot of compatibility issues with them.
If you are into productivity apps and want to have a speedy system, then go for the Vampire.
You cant have both, so you better establish your Amiga priorities and decide upon those.
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Does anyone seriously web surf on an Amiga, even one with a Vampire?
The occasional need to go to aminet and a few sites would be a nice bonus but not a reason to go and spend the money.
Some games and even some productivity apps will crash. For that reason I think you should sit tight.
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If you are into Amiga gaming and whdload, I suggest you to stay away from the Vampire, as it has a lot of compatibility issues with them.
If you are into productivity apps and want to have a speedy system, then go for the Vampire.
You cant have both, so you better establish your Amiga priorities and decide upon those.
At this moment you are right, but the Apollo-core is activly developed :)
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At this moment you are right, but the Apollo-core is activly developed :)
Yes, but better be safe than sorry and buy a Vampire for what it is now if you want one, because it has fallen short on many promises they made in the past.
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Yes, but better be safe than sorry and buy a Vampire for what it is now if you want one, because it has fallen short on many promises they made in the past.
And what promises are those ? Since they are still developing the core you cant judge if the promises will be held or not. BTW they delivered a lot more than promised until now and they are not done yet.... There is a lot more to come...
@topic
If you ever dreamed of a hi-end Amiga with fast 68k and RTG then Vampire sure gives a lot of bang for the money. If you just want to run classic games, then it might not be for you even tho the compatibility with WHDload and old sw is growing with every core release.
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And what promises are those ? Since they are still developing the core you cant judge if the promises will be held or not. BTW they delivered a lot more than promised until now and they are not done yet.... There is a lot more to come...
Promises unfullfilled to this date:
-A compatible 68k MMU
-A compatible 68k FPU
-The most compatible processor than any of the Motorola 68k series
And the list could go on, but it is not my intention to demerit the Apollo choice, just to give fair advice to a fellow Amiga user.
I already said it is fast for productivity stuff and desirable if you go this route. But it is not good on gaming/whdload and demos.
Please dont derail the thread and turn it into another Apollo-core cult member thread.
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Promises unfullfilled to this date:
-A compatible 68k MMU
-A compatible 68k FPU
-The most compatible processor than any of the Motorola 68k series
And the list could go on, but it is not my intention to demerit the Apollo choice, just to give fair advice to a fellow Amiga user.
I already said it is fast for productivity stuff and desirable if you go this route. But it is not good on gaming/whdload and demos.
Please dont derail the thread and turn it into another Apollo-core cult member thread.
Thats a better formulation..... to this date :)
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Hmmm, methinks I'll stand pat.
Still, nice to know there are options.
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-A compatible 68k MMU
sorry but this is a completely false information. apollo team/gunnar has never promissed mmu nor considered 68030/40 or 60 mmu reimplementation as option. i remember this very well, since i have lived through discussions about the subject on german forums mostly between gunnar and thor.
i would prefer to have a core with backwards compatible mmu (for debugging purposes) as well as fpu. but it isnt my project and it isnt my decision to take. i can be supportive about projects without making bold demands. if vampire/ apollo wont suit my needs ill simply skip on it. so far i am comfortable to cooperate simply using my genuine amigas and uae..
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I also don't recall the Apollo team ever claiming that the MMU of the Apollo Core for the Vampire would ever be compatible with previous 68k MMU's.
I'm also a little surprised to read the Vampire has a lot of compatibility issues with whdload games as I would have expected to read about a lot more examples of this by now if it's the case. As for non-whdload games well that's always been a lottery with any Amiga setup (needing ROM switchers, memory disable switches, accelerator disable switches etc. for compatibility with some games).
On the upside the Apollo Core will likely allow AGA games to be played on a Vampired A500/1000/2000 or A600 soon, although as always only buy it for what it can do now. What it can do now is also allow you to play a lot of new ports of demanding games thanks to the work of guys like Arti and Modern Vintage Gamer. The OpenBOR engine has over 100 games listed on http://www.gamesdatabase.org/all_system_games-openbor (http://www.gamesdatabase.org/all_system_games-openbor)
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I'm in the waiting camp.
I'll buy it if/when its available for AGA Amigas and can run everything an 060 can (which means FPU).
Until that day, I'll be happy with my 060.
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Regarding the MMU, I'd have remembered if I ever saw that. Since I'm looking for the fastest m68k for compiling pkgsrc packages for NetBSD, I'd need an MMU, and I can say for sure I've never seen any mention of working on that.
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I currently have an A2000, 10 MB Ram, OS 3.1 and 1.3, Fusion 40 clocking at 40 MHz, Rev 6.2 (I think). Keep hearing talk about the wonderful specs on the Vampire and keep asking myself if I should upgrade.
The main thing I do with my miggy is games but was looking at expanding my use to Web surfing, email, and more general use.
Comments please both pro and con.
Thanks in advance.
So I see some people are writing about compatibility issues with WHD Load?
That is complete nonsense. I have both V500 (2000) and V600 and they are both simply amazing. Great quality, plenty of memory, fast, easy installation.
I liked my V600 so much that I decided to re-case my 600 into Casablanca desktop case to make it a proper desktop computer, have HDMI, VGA, SD-card on the back, Cdrom and HXC inside, everything works just fine.
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The one consistent claim you keep hearing repeated is what this will do "soon".
But they have implemented new instructions that almost nothing supports!
Hey, the excuses about not promising a compatible MMU (which an '040 or above cpu should have) don't make up for the lack of a floating point unit.
So cut the BS. This crap IS Natami style cultish at times.
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The one consistent claim you keep hearing repeated is what this will do "soon".
But they have implemented new instructions that almost nothing supports!
Hey, the excuses about not promising a compatible MMU (which an '040 or above cpu should have) don't make up for the lack of a floating point unit.
So cut the BS. This crap IS Natami style cultish at times.
Well, the main dev for the core is the Natami dev so that makes sense.
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I have a couple of Vampires, they are good with productivity as long as you don't need an FPU. Continuous work on the core offers a good deal of compatibility with WHDLOAD games. The integer performance of the 68080 outlcasses any Amiga FPU option. So if possible run the integer version.
They are continuously updating the core... I can tell you that they are on it every day.
With all the other amenities you get (HDMI, Faster IDE, SD card slot with network capability) you simply can't find a better value even if there isn't an FPU. It is my understanding they want to improve the 68080 as it's the Central Processor, the brains of the system and has greater priority then do FPU work. They are also doing other things related to Amiga hardware components related to display hardware.
If you want max compatibility or "real" hardware check on Amibay for a good 040 / 060 card and a picasso card and a flicker fixer.
Vampire is a long term project but at least the CPU "hardware" upgrades consist of a "free core software download" instead of a trip to EBAY / Amibay.
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So cut the BS. This crap IS Natami style cultish at times.
hahahah I loved the Natami!
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hahahah I loved the Natami!
Well, it occupied a lot of people's imaginations anyway.
Odd that the fpu for the cpu core of this STILL isn't done, and we're still seeing feature creep, but...its a hobbyist project so wtf.
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The one consistent claim you keep hearing repeated is what this will do "soon".
But they have implemented new instructions that almost nothing supports!
Hey, the excuses about not promising a compatible MMU (which an '040 or above cpu should have) don't make up for the lack of a floating point unit.
So cut the BS. This crap IS Natami style cultish at times.
It's not as tedious as the constant cultish demands for an FPU.
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The integer performance of the 68080 outlcasses any Amiga FPU option..
You know that this makes no sense? :)Anyhow, "any Amiga FPU option" also includes PowerPC cards, and they run in circles around 68EC080. The showcase for the apollo core superiority is Riva, and anyone who are used to offloading mpeg decoding to either dedicated hardware or to PowerPC, it is rather unimpressive.
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It's not as tedious as the constant cultish demands for an FPU.
Is it cultish to expect "the most compatible 68k processor ever" to actually be compatible with a large chunk of the most important productivity software for the platform? Especaially since it has been touted as the most insanely impressive piece of PFU ever, since what... 3 years ago?Anyhow - my advice for anyone is to buy the Vampire, and then weigh in with your oppinion about where the core, and really the 68k Amiga platform, should go feature wise.
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Yeah, your Aces if you an 060... Elitist...
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Yeah, your Aces if you an 060... Elitist...
Considering that a 33 MHz m68040's floating point is unambiguously faster than the floating point of an 800 MHz ARM doing floating point in software, I'd say that software-based floating point isn't all that desirable.
Here's the latest on the Apollo FPU:
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931&z=A6zfyz (http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931&z=A6zfyz)
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It's not as tedious as the constant cultish demands for an FPU.
That is particularly inane, even from an Amiga fanatic.
The cpu has been given the designation 68080, but doesn't have features that the '040 and '060 have standard.
Speed without compatibility?
Without a feature I can tack on to an '020 or '030 system easily?
Its remarkably underwhelming.
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That is particularly inane, even from an Amiga fanatic.
The cpu has been given the designation 68080, but doesn't have features that the '040 and '060 have standard.
Speed without compatibility?
Without a feature I can tack on to an '020 or '030 system easily?
Its remarkably underwhelming.
I think the word you are looking for is" Work in Progress". I do wonder if all the negativity in general is why most developers still active on the amiga scene refrain from posting on forums.
Niding/Overflow
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I think the word you are looking for is" Work in Progress". I do wonder if all the negativity in general is why most developers still active on the amiga scene refrain from posting on forums.
Niding/Overflow
My apologies if it seems negative, but how long has Gunnar been working on a cpu core? And I'd mention that the fpu STILL isn't done, but it IS redundant.
Also like I said, its a hobbyist project, so the timetable isn't vital.
Further, negativity comes to us naturally, after the number of set backs and disappointments we've all endured.
The fact the we still persist, just proves how stubborn we all are. ;-)
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And the hijacking of the topic is now complete!
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I suggest you join Apollo-Team IRC channel and ask questions there;
irc.freenode.org
Port; 6667
#apollo-team
Or webbased IRC
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=apollo-team
OR ask on their forums;
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/
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And the hijacking of the topic is now complete!
Considering that the originator of the thread has already announced his intention to delay purchasing the "work in progress", you fan boys can all go home now. :(
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I currently have an A2000, 10 MB Ram, OS 3.1 and 1.3, Fusion 40 clocking at 40 MHz, Rev 6.2 (I think). Keep hearing talk about the wonderful specs on the Vampire and keep asking myself if I should upgrade.
The main thing I do with my miggy is games but was looking at expanding my use to Web surfing, email, and more general use.
Comments please both pro and con.
Thanks in advance.
If you get a vampire,don't sell the old accelerator. missing fpu in vampire and compatibility are its main deal breakers for me. what does run,runs fast however.
You can make that fusion forty into a 060 i think :)
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Sorry for not being well informed, but is there any A4000 version of Vampire planned?
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Sorry for not being well informed, but is there any A4000 version of Vampire planned?
Yes.
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You know that this makes no sense? :)Anyhow, "any Amiga FPU option" also includes PowerPC cards, and they run in circles around 68EC080. The showcase for the apollo core superiority is Riva, and anyone who are used to offloading mpeg decoding to either dedicated hardware or to PowerPC, it is rather unimpressive.
And what PPC or even 060 OR EVEN 040 options do we have for a600 and a500 ? Please dont mention some ultra rare, ultra old, ultra expensive, one in the world, ancient card. So you make no sense at all.... v2 runs circles around any available a500 and a600 accelerator. Beside that it even gives you RTG and 128MB ram.... What other RTG option is out there for a500 and a600 ? You people are just whiners....
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Vampire is awesome, go ahead and let it suck your Amiga's blood.
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And what PPC or even 060 OR EVEN 040 options do we have for a600 and a500 ?
This thread is about A2000, but more importantly my reply was to a claim about "any Amiga FPU option". For what it is worth, my other CPU card for A600, which ironically is an Apollo 630, with a 68882, runs in circles around the V600 when it comes to software relying on FPU, as all you get on Apollo Core is 8000 000B :)
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This thread is about A2000, but more importantly my reply was to a claim about "any Amiga FPU option". For what it is worth, my other CPU card for A600, which ironically is an Apollo 630, with a 68882, runs in circles around the V600 when it comes to software relying on FPU, as all you get on Apollo Core is 8000 000B :)
Try to run this on your mighty 030 with FPU....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m6zm_tI2mE
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Try to run this on your mighty 030 with FPU....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m6zm_tI2mE
Why don't you show off Quake instead?
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Why don't you show off Quake instead?
+1 :)
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Try to run this on your mighty 030 with FPU....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m6zm_tI2mE
Oh great, SDL ports. Exactly what we need.
Note: This isn't Vampire criticism.
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Oh great, SDL ports. Exactly what we need.
Note: This isn't Vampire criticism.
Hey, all camps keep pointing to outside ports, this isn't new.
Aren't some OS4 users pushing hard for Libre Office (which won't substitute for Office365 for my applications anyway, so I could care less).
Frankly, I'd like to see some more support for the continued development of native software like Final Writer.
Since all I plan on doing with an Amiga based office package is editing anyway, that would work fine with me.
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Why don't you show off Quake instead?
I will when FPU is done. So you really fail to see that Vampire is the best thing happend to Amiga in years ? Dont you see it started new development, new ports, new activity, new (old) users coming back etc. ? BTW minislug also runs on 060 as do many other ports... If you dont like it, there is no need to be negative about it, there are a few thousand happy users and there is you and a few other grumpy whiners not liking it.... Just be happy with your 030+FPU and let the rest enjoy the Amiga future.
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... and just to fan the flames ;) .... Vampire audio over HDMI is starting to work... this in theory via the new sound subsystem with 16 bit audio ... but it is currently in testing so no guarantee on release dates, but hopefully in Gold3.
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Considering that the originator of the thread has already announced his intention to delay purchasing the "work in progress", you fan boys can all go home now. :(
ok then why did he the thread at all?
just to start a flame fest?
gratulation success :(
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ok then why did he the thread at all?
just to start a flame fest?
gratulation success :(
No intent to flame anyone, I'd like to buy one, when it has the compatibility needed to make useful, which INCLUDES the fpu.
HDMI sound out, new multi-media instructions, for that matter video in general if it isn't fully AGA compliant, I DON'T care.
I'd just like a cpu that gives me what I can get with an '020, '030, '040, or '060 card.
At least the option of an fpu (if not one built in).
Again, this IS supposed to be the "'080", right? :angry:
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No intent to flame anyone, I'd like to buy one, when it has the compatibility needed to make useful, which INCLUDES the fpu.
HDMI sound out, new multi-media instructions, for that matter video in general if it isn't fully AGA compliant, I DON'T care.
I'd just like a cpu that gives me what I can get with an '020, '030, '040, or '060 card.
At least the option of an fpu (if not one built in).
Again, this IS supposed to be the "'080", right? :angry:
I would still say its worth getting one now even with the compatibility issues. For the most part if you just get apps that are for the stock machines they seem to work. If you run something thats 030+ it will expect an FPU and fail. I just try and remember that and have had some good luck with it. Its the auto detect stuff thats been a pain in the ass for me.
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I would still say its worth getting one now even with the compatibility issues. For the most part if you just get apps that are for the stock machines they seem to work. If you run something thats 030+ it will expect an FPU and fail. I just try and remember that and have had some good luck with it. Its the auto detect stuff thats been a pain in the ass for me.
I don't doubt you there, and will at some point have to put one in my A2000.
After all, an fpu is not part of that design without using a cpu card.
BUT, since it IS available on a cpu card, I'd hope it would be a focus at SOME point in the Vampire's development.
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Gunnar repeated many times and I am sure you whiners are aware of this, that FPU is developed, it needs a lot more testing before release and that it is not very high on the priority list. So the team doesnt think its a very important part of THEIR product and find that other things should have higher priority so they are working on these things (SAGA, Pamela etc.). Also he repeated a lot of times to only buy the Vampire for the features it has NOW and not for the features it might have in the future.
People seem to think they have some magical right to demand things and tell professionals what they should do. Buy a product that fits your demands and budget.
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Also he repeated a lot of times to only buy the Vampire for the features it has NOW and not for the features it might have in the future.
People seem to think they have some magical right to demand things and tell professionals what they should do. Buy a product that fits your demands and budget.
You seem to be berating people for agreeing with him that you shouldn't buy one unless it fits your needs now. It is not compatible with the 68030/68040 or 68060 MMU & FPU. So it certainly won't be going on my shopping list any time soon, I just hoped it would.
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The project started off very promising, but somewhere along the way their priorities shifted.
I would think the highest possible priority should be striving for 100% compatibility with all existing software (incl. 040/060 specific).
What they're doing now (improved AGA & audio) is nice-to-have but should come after everything else is complete & fully compatible.
At least, that's my opinion.
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You seem to be berating people for agreeing with him that you shouldn't buy one unless it fits your needs now. It is not compatible with the 68030/68040 or 68060 MMU & FPU. So it certainly won't be going on my shopping list any time soon, I just hoped it would.
To you sir, and UberFreak, thank you gentleman.
Getting tagged as a "whiner" for merely wanting the functionality a dirt cheap 68882 gives me is remarkably irritating.
Also, the label of "professionals" is a little questionable, since they aren't carrying on like professionals, they're carrying on like hobbyists that want to be create some kind of exclusive club.
If you can't take constructive criticism, you simply aren't that professional.
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Feature creep at its finest. Natami style!
Jack of all trades, master of none.
LOL
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Everyone's opinion in here is valid - we all have different priorities and requirements.
All I can add to this discussion is that the Apollo/Vampire team has their own set of priorities and roadmap. There are only so many developer-hours at hand. What do they do first? AGA? 16 bit sound? FPU? Mega chip RAM? Don't forget there is a standalone board in testing. It is waiting for a core revision that contains AGA and other chipset replacement logic.
So if delayed FPU isn't your cup of tea, hey I can see your point for sure. You just need to be patient and wait.
My understanding is that the FPU is a LOT of work to test. It is almost as complex as the CPU core. So do they hold all the other features up while the FPU is worked on, or ship product to the 80/90% or so users that can live without an FPU solution for now. There are workarounds for some (but not all) of the FPU requirements as well. But again if this isn't your cup of tea then just wait. No problem.
This is a very ambitious project and everyone just needs to be patient.
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My understanding is that the FPU is a LOT of work to test. It is almost as complex as the CPU core. So do they hold all the other features up while the FPU is worked on,
If the claim is true that it's done, but needs testing & they don't have time to test it. Then it would seem kinda logical to release it and see if someone external would test it.
Alternatively, release documentation so that other people can port their own code to the boards.
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Feature creep at its finest. Natami style!
Jack of all trades, master of none.
LOL
I give you a good advice... do not buy it
then you can stay a happy man
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* The claim is that an FPU is done, and was done more than 12 months ago.
* The only testing Gunnar is interested in, is that can be done in assembler code and that is a "killer app" for the Apollo Core FPU, the way Riva is a "killer app" for the AMMX instructions.
* The claim is that they offered the Apollo Core FPU 12 months ago to "the amiga coder community" (whoever they are?), but that noone showed any interest in it
* Gunnar wants to do a different FPU, a new one, even better, faster, more amazing etc.
* But only if there is enough interest in "the amiga coder community" to work man hours for the "team".
* Gunnar does not care one squat about old legacy programs that use FPU, for those, if anyone is interested, someone can very well slap together an FPU emulator.
* No FPU for current Vampires. The super duper new FPU is for the next generation of cards only, because Gunnar now sees potential in shiny new FPGAs that are coming.
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I give you a good advice... do not buy it
then you can stay a happy man
Good advice for you is - buy it, so you can see for yourself what it offers.
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I think the topic starter got the advice he was asking for on page 1.
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I think the topic starter got the advice he was asking for on page 1.
And hence any further communication between amiga.org members on the topic of "To Vampire or not" should cease to exist? :)
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* The claim is that an FPU is done, and was done more than 12 months ago.
* The only testing Gunnar is interested in, is that can be done in assembler code and that is a "killer app" for the Apollo Core FPU, the way Riva is a "killer app" for the AMMX instructions.
* The claim is that they offered the Apollo Core FPU 12 months ago to "the amiga coder community" (whoever they are?), but that noone showed any interest in it
* Gunnar wants to do a different FPU, a new one, even better, faster, more amazing etc.
* But only if there is enough interest in "the amiga coder community" to work man hours for the "team".
* Gunnar does not care one squat about old legacy programs that use FPU, for those, if anyone is interested, someone can very well slap together an FPU emulator.
* No FPU for current Vampires. The super duper new FPU is for the next generation of cards only, because Gunnar now sees potential in shiny new FPGAs that are coming.
All quite scary, if true. :confused:
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All quite scary, if true. :confused:
I would be happy to be wrong, but this is the essence of what Gunnar has stated on IRC and on the Apollo Core forum. Sadly he has a tendency to delete what is written on the forum, so it can be worth while to take screenshots and copy text for future reference, wayback machine only visits so often :)
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931
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I would be happy to be wrong, but this is the essence of what Gunnar has stated on IRC and on the Apollo Core forum. Sadly he has a tendency to delete what is written on the forum, so it can be worth while to take screenshots and copy text for future reference, wayback machine only visits so often :)
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931
Thanks for the reference.
"While the APOLLO FPU was successfully used in some customer project, for usage in 68K AMIGA OS some more testing was found required.
The Apollo-team did ask for AMIGA coders community to help testing 12month ago - in this time no coders applied for this.
So it became clear that the FPU priority in AMIGA world is not very high.
This makes sense as the majority of AMIGA software does not use FPU at all.
While we have a FPU now, we also know that the FPGA technology will allow to reach floating point performance 1000 times faster than existing Motorola 68060 CPUs we need to look for a solution which we can use long time and which allow benefit from these FPGA technologies. Therefore its advisable to verify and review the design to make sure that its future-proof.
Yes, scary is definitely the word.
I might go as far as crazy, but that would just bring on the flames.
Why would "coders" be needed for testing?
"1000 times faster"? - Right now, infinitely faster, because it doesn't exist (at least not to the community at large).
"Future-proof" - His goal is a "future-proof" 68K design (or at least the fpu)?
Hmm...the question becomes, can I rely on someone with this level of stability?
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Based on whats been said on IRC I get the impression that Gunnar sticks to his/their own priorities based on internal roadmap.
He has asked for FPU code, something that will push the limits, and noone has stepped up to make a case why he/they should prioritise FPU over other things they are working on. The list of things to do is long, and there has to be priorities made.
The conclusion seems to be; well, if noone can be bothered to work with them on FPU code, then its not really that important to warrant pushing it futher up on the roadmap.
Like Video+Audio thru HDMI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwbIdKz0AoY&t=40s
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For me it's a No at the moment. I have nice classic accelerators for my A1200 and A4000 , my A4000 has rtg already. and I'm not massively interested in turbo charging my A500 as I like it at stock.
I say "at the moment" because I haven't ruled out vampire, I think it looks like excellent hardware but I'd like to see which way it goes and also see what materialises for A1200 and A4000 first. I'm in no rush.
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I hope they will make FPU soon, not because of games and demos, but to silence 90% of the critics.
Anyway Vampire is good, but if you have 040/40 in your A2000 I would keep it and buy A500 or another A2000 for Vampire 500.
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I hope they will make FPU soon, not because of games and demos, but to silence 90% of the critics.
Anyway Vampire is good, but if you have 040/40 in your A2000 I would keep it and buy A500 or another A2000 for Vampire 500.
I hope they get to that stage myself, because while I am no longer in direct contact with Gunnar, I do wish him and the Apollo team all the best in their endeavors.
At one time, we had a common interest in seeing support across Amiga platforms.
But the majority of us left in the community (myself included) each have our own priorities (and enough eccentricities) that we sometimes rub each other the wrong way.
Anyway, I see this issue (the lack of a fpu)as a valid complaint.
And I'm not sure I share this "Super 68K" fpga vision with Gunnar.
It wouldn't have enough compatibility with legacy hardware as he seems to envision it, and isn't that the point of going back to the 68K (for better legacy compatibility)?
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All quite scary, if true. :confused:
Are you and Kolla now playing ping pong? Ping bash on Gunnar, Pong bash on Gunnar? It is getting boring...
if you do not like it do not buy it...
Gunnar always stated that people should not buy it for what it might offer in future but for what it offer
There are long waiting list with people only moaning that they have to wait not because of missing FPU. If someone bought it and is not happy with it I am pretty sure that he can sell it to more thankful people
Iggy you are MOS guy, PPC fan and Aros hater, a deadly combination regarding Vampire. If you do not like it do not buy it. But this game toegether with Kollar is becoming boring. Sometimes people like you and others moan about me praising Aros but you are not different and not better
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I hope they will make FPU soon, not because of games and demos, but to silence 90% of the critics.
Anyway Vampire is good, but if you have 040/40 in your A2000 I would keep it and buy A500 or another A2000 for Vampire 500.
they asked if someone could offer them a showcase for FPU like RIVA was for AMMX. Long long silence including Kollar and others. Just talking and requesting. Then Gunnar stated it is on To Do List but to do it right it needs time to integrate and test. They have limited resources and think other parts are more important for people but it will be done later. MMU never ever was promised, I know that 100% but despite of that certain people are claiming that Apollo is useless rubbish without it and Gunnar promised it. Clear answer... It is not and Gunnar never promised it. But that will people not hinder to still claiming it. Fortunately the important people are normally too busy to read all the nonsense.
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Are you and Kolla now playing ping pong? Ping bash on Gunnar, Pong bash on Gunnar? It is getting boring...
if you do not like it do not buy it...
Gunnar always stated that people should not buy it for what it might offer in future but for what it offer
There are long waiting list with people only moaning that they have to wait not because of missing FPU. If someone bought it and is not happy with it I am pretty sure that he can sell it to more thankful people
Iggy you are MOS guy, PPC fan and Aros hater, a deadly combination regarding Vampire. If you do not like it do not buy it. But this game toegether with Kollar is becoming boring. Sometimes people like you and others moan about me praising Aros but you are not different and not better
I'm thrilled that you're bored, since maybe it will slow down the spread of such nonsense.
I am in no way an AROS hater, I currently am contributing to the drive to keep a roof over Kalamatee's head, and I have a few friends in the AROS development community.
If you can point to one comment bemoaning AROS that I've made, repeat it.
As to Gunnar's weird "I have it, but you can't get it, because my end goal is the imposible" logic, hey if you have a problem with me for calling out someone on their public statements, that is your problem.
BTW - I don't care what bores you, we aren't here for your entertainment.
Its a public forum, so stop trying to bully me, because you don't have logic on your side in this one.
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I'm thrilled that you're bored, since maybe it will slow down the spread of such nonsense.
I am in no way an AROS hater, I currently am contributing to the drive to keep a roof over Kalamatee's head, and I have a few friends in the AROS development community.
If you can point to one comment bemoaning AROS that I've made, repeat it.
As to Gunnar's weird "I have it, but you can't get it, because my end goal is the imposible" logic, hey if you have a problem with me for calling out someone on their public statements, that is your problem.
BTW - I don't care what bores you, we aren't here for your entertainment.
Its a public forum, so stop trying to bully me, because you don't have logic on your side in this one.
no you entertain yourself and Kolla
that is not better
And yes I remember comments from you that downtalk Aros. I will look for it just for the fun to proof you wrong
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no you entertain yourself and Kolla
that is not better
And yes I remember comments from you that downtalk Aros. I will look for it just for the fun to proof you wrong
You do that, it will keep you occupied.
And in the meanwhile, I'll still be supporting NG OS' (even though I've got my preferences, the worst that you're going to find is that I've placed AROS second). :hammer:
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Its funny reading all these posts, there are 2 men (whiners) crying about something Gunnar might have said while the Vampire is growing every day, bringing new features and new users. Its clear the goal is to bring out a standalone board as fast as possible with a fast 68k, improved AGA, sound, a new compatible platform. Its clear it will never be 100% compatible, but compatible is a relative thing, a1200 is not 100% compatible to a500, 060 is not 100% compatible with 020 etc....The main complaint is the FPU which might come when other priorities are done. I wonder what the haters will whine about then ? Its clear vampire is a great success and it has set a new standard in Amiga hardware and software. If Aros continues to develop at a fast pace, we will have a open Amiga platform with modern hardware and open OS.
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Okay. I have my answer and really appreciate those who were able to stay on target.
However, this thread has become just another fanboy argument so it's time to ask the moderators to CLOSE THIS THREAD.
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Adding to what Djole just wrote, there was a comment in the now deleted and restarted FPU thread on the Apollo-Core forum that modern software for floating point seldom uses raw FPU functions anyway but instead usually uses SSE2 on the Intel as a minimum so that 4 times the computation can take place. I doubt there is room on the current generation of FPGAs to do a full floating point vector unit so it is likely that Gunnar is just finishing up what he can do with the current generation before he even thinks about starting the next generation. Sometimes I wish I had his discipline to finish one thing before starting the next.
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Adding to what Djole just wrote, there was a comment in the now deleted and restarted FPU thread on the Apollo-Core forum that modern software for floating point seldom uses raw FPU functions anyway but instead usually uses SSE2 on the Intel as a minimum so that 4 times the computation can take place. I doubt there is room on the current generation of FPGAs to do a full floating point vector unit so it is likely that Gunnar is just finishing up what he can do with the current generation before he even thinks about starting the next generation. Sometimes I wish I had his discipline to finish one thing before starting the next.
Thanks Sam, that's all I've ever said (or whined depending on your POV :angry:).
Okay. I have my answer and really appreciate those who were able to stay on target.
However, this thread has become just another fanboy argument so it's time to ask the moderators to CLOSE THIS THREAD.
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"so it's time to ask the moderators to CLOSE THIS THREAD"
I think I mentioned that awhile ago (that you'd already had your answer), so you have a point.
But I don't let character assassination go easily.
And since apps under AROS68K often require an fpu...
Anyway, I guess we aren't supposed to ask for it, even if its been mentioned as an intended feature.
So, for now (since the guy that started the thread DID get his answer), I'll let it drop.
And those that want to remind Kolla, SamCrow, myself (or anyone else that's brought it up) what b*stards we are for mentioning it, go for it (he whined ;-) ).
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And since apps under AROS68K often require an fpu...
interesting. how have you discovered that? own experience or assumptions as customary among aros complainers? ;)
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interesting. how have you discovered that? own experience or assumptions as customary among aros complainers? ;)
Fascinating...doing your Vulcan impression, are you?
Perhaps requires is too strong a phrase, would you prefer can use (and often runs better with) an FPU?
Funny, I didn't think it was much of a complaint, asking for support for instructions that have been with us for decades.
Are you sure that isn't a matter of you being an apologist vs my being a "complainer"? :)
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Yes, scary is definitely the word.
I might go as far as crazy, but that would just bring on the flames.
Hmm...the question becomes, can I rely on someone with this level of stability?
But I don't let character assassination go easily.
And to quote the good book: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
I'd also rather see this thread get locked.
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And to quote the good book: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
I'd also rather see this thread get locked.
Oddly enough, so would I, as I (myself) seem to be the ping-pong ball.
And to quote another passage "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth".
I can do that just as well as you...
Now, can you explain Isaiah 45:5 to me, since it seems to credit God with disaster and the creation of evil.
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Fascinating...doing your Vulcan impression, are you?
Perhaps requires is too strong a phrase, would you prefer can use (and often runs better with) an FPU?
aros software requires fpu as much as amiga software. that is usually then when its sensible. it doesnt require fpu by design. on aros 68k you would likely mostly want to use genuine amiga software, simply because it is a much larger choice. in this case requirements would simply be the same.
Funny, I didn't think it was much of a complaint, asking for support for instructions that have been with us for decades.
Are you sure that isn't a matter of you being an apologist vs my being a "complainer"? :)
no. at this point im simply informing you about the state of affairs and correcting your wrong assumptions according to the subject i have obviously more experience with than you.
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yeah the ones who have run out of arguments (give us FPU now) would like to get this thread closed now. Give us FPU or we will hate you is the main argument. If you dont, you are a dork and gay of course, liar, amiga hater, cheat and a AROS lover. BUrn mf....
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The work on the core is just going well, everyone who connects to the IRC knows on what the guys are working at moment, and no it is not a 'club', like if it was 'closed'. They are just some amiga enthousiasts, like we all are. There are IRCs for plenty amiga stuff, the apollo-team is just one among others, and is not as close as some seems to think, many vampire users also owns another amiga config. I myself have a morphos machine, a 1200 + blizz, and yes a vampire, all 3 are just excellents systems in there areas. FPU is tiring discussion as some here have no idea of what are the current investigations / brainstormings / core remaining spaces / ... FPU exists but do not fits in current shape, some choice are done, not because team is unskilled or mad or stupid or frightening but because she had to do with constraints; all developers knows of what can be constraints. So please, be patient, be smart and just nice. One other thing, it seems people still thinks that the core is a "one-man core" made, public should change their mind about this. Some members actually works on the core, at VHDL level, i would like also thanks these guys who are doing great work silentely and contributes to bring visible progresses and open-minded spirit inside core team. 4 or 5 brains are always better than 1, be sure the team is aware of this.
About the initial question, A2000 and Vamp, i advise anyone interested in to watch ShK videos, that use a V500 daily in an A2000, aside some real amiga hardware (Delfina, X-Surf, Prisma, PIV, Oktagon, ...). Looking at them can convince or not, dependings of what is wished at end. But at least it proves it works and well - with some clean system (as for any amiga system/configuration). Core is much more compatible than people seems to think.
For example (and sorry if already pasted) :
https://vimeo.com/200954816
https://vimeo.com/185116764
https://vimeo.com/206998554
https://vimeo.com/195123926
Looks carefully at the videos descriptions.
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aros software requires fpu as much as amiga software. that is usually then when its sensible. it doesnt require fpu by design. on aros 68k you would likely mostly want to use genuine amiga software, simply because it is a much larger choice. in this case requirements would simply be the same.
no. at this point im simply informing you about the state of affairs and correcting your wrong assumptions according to the subject i have obviously more experience with than you.
Your grasp of the "obvious" misses a few points.
A developer targeting AROS specifically, may very well be porting code from X86 AROS to AROS 68K, so floating point routines would be likely.
AROS while it is an AmigaOS analogue, should have to potential to surpass AmigaOS in capability.
And as about 20% of all Amiga software supports an FPU, its entirely possible that software specifically designed with AROS in mind could exceed that percentage.
SO, before you write off at least 1/5th of all of our software...
Also, as to your experience level, with AROS 68K I have no doubt, with 68K platforms in general, its really unlikely.
My company was building its own hardware when most of you were focused on playing games with your A500s.
Which appears to be the same focus many of you still have, since those are the demos you show on YouTube.
And since games rarely require a FPU, you're not really likely to be too worried about it. Are you? :)
Now as for something like Lightwave or Aladdin4D...
(Or anything that might require heavy mathematics)...
Obviously the Vampire (running AROS OR AmigaOS) is still going to be at a disadvantage.
SO, instead of trying to distract others from the point I've made, why not stop being an apologist, and admit that floating point support would be useful?
This isn't a "wah, you're not being fair" issue, or a "uh, you just don't like AROS" issue. Its a simple matter of a feature set being missing from your cpu. Its a HARDWARE issue (btw - that's the topic, hardware).
When you're ready to stop pointing fingers or pontificating...
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It's not just "heavy mathematics", it's random software compiled for 040 and 060, for which the compiler used assumes FPU to be available and hence may use it for optimization. It doesn't matter if the usage is heavy or not, the use of FPU instructions can be quite arbitrary when there is software meant to run on 040 and 060 in use. To avoid the 8000 000B crashes, users must be very aware what they install and run, with AC68EC080 most often being detected as 040 or 060 by installers, the user must override what is detected and insist on 68000/020/030 if they exist.
The most worrisome 8000 000B I have seen yet was on file system validation, on a system that afaik was "clean" for all FPU software (duplicated straight from my MIST), had to work around it by disabling partition in early startup and fix from hdtoolbox...
But whatever, these are all worries that AmigaKit etc will have to deal with now.
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yeah the ones who have run out of arguments (give us FPU now) would like to get this thread closed now. Give us FPU or we will hate you is the main argument. If you dont, you are a dork and gay of course, liar, amiga hater, cheat and a AROS lover. BUrn mf....
You have no concept of what hate is, you can rest assured that I have zero hate for any people involved with Amiga. Stop being so damn polarized, and rather spend time actually using Amiga software and be creative.
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Your grasp of the "obvious" misses a few points.
A developer targeting AROS specifically, may very well be porting code from X86 AROS to AROS 68K, so floating point routines would be likely.
you dont need to hypothetize about all that. aros has a pool of software in contribs and ports that compile for different targets a the same time. x86, arm or plain mc68000. check yourself.
AROS while it is an AmigaOS analogue, should have to potential to surpass AmigaOS in capability.
it does.
And as about 20% of all Amiga software supports an FPU, its entirely possible that software specifically designed with AROS in mind could exceed that percentage.
as i said. if necessary.
SO, before you write off at least 1/5th of all of our software...
Also, as to your experience level, with AROS 68K I have no doubt, with 68K platforms in general, its really unlikely.
My company was building its own hardware when most of you were focused on playing games with your A500s.
Which appears to be the same focus many of you still have, since those are the demos you show on YouTube.
And since games rarely require a FPU, you're not really likely to be too worried about it. Are you? :)
i habe not put any videos on youtube..
Now as for something like Lightwave or Aladdin4D...
(Or anything that might require heavy mathematics)...
Obviously the Vampire (running AROS OR AmigaOS) is still going to be at a disadvantage.
cant you think of some more original application example then raytracers? that btw usally even had integer binaries on amiga. web browser? or maybe fractal generator?
SO, instead of trying to distract others from the point I've made, why not stop being an apologist, and admit that floating point support would be useful?
certainly. i dont discuss that, just your other mistakes.
This isn't a "wah, you're not being fair" issue, or a "uh, you just don't like AROS" issue. Its a simple matter of a feature set being missing from your cpu. Its a HARDWARE issue (btw - that's the topic, hardware).
When you're ready to stop pointing fingers or pontificating...
as soon as you stop spreading wrong assumptions about aros 68k as facts, you obviously know nothing of.
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And as about 20% of all Amiga software supports an FPU, its entirely possible that software specifically designed with AROS in mind could exceed that percentage.
Using floating point variables is very common because (at least at some point) some x86 fpu operations were faster than integer & it is essentially lossy compression, which helps cache hits.
Obviously you can compile them to use software routines, or you could trap the errors and then patch the code. But the current line is that FPU will come eventually, so doing anything other than waiting seems a waste of resources. If the line is just a diversion tactic then it does mean that we lose out in the long term, but you can't control people.
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Anybody who is feeling "hatred" over some aspect of the vampire project needs to get a grip.
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Do you guys really believe it takes your input to make a professional CPU developer and long-time Amiga user understand the value of a compatible FPU or compatibility with as much of the Amiga software catalogue as possible? :D
If so, you must have a strange idea of the level of intelligence, dedication and hard work it takes to develop a CPU as complex as some post-Pentium Intel CPU which usually were developed by a team of more than thousand engineers. And the FPU is STILL not done, what is Gunnar THINKING!!! :D
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Do you guys really believe it takes your input to make a professional CPU developer and long-time Amiga user understand the value of a compatible FPU or compatibility with as much of the Amiga software catalogue as possible?
It has worked before, so why not - the trick is to somehow make him think that it is his idea.
And the FPU is STILL not done, what is Gunnar THINKING!!! :D
It is clearly done, he has said so many times now, and besides, 3 years ago, it was even available...
http://web.archive.org/web/20140516224526/http://apollo-core.com/
Optionally, a fully pipelined, double precision FPU is available to be included in the Core.
So the questions is - is this professional CPU developer and long-time Amiga user able to do it, or is he not?
What happens with the already finished FPU implementation? Will it be available for sale? If so, how much?
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Comment on youtube by Simo;
Goal is have a standalone and to work it needs AGA+PAULA. That is why AGA+PAULA (via HDMI) are at high priority after CPU (integer) development. Once they have been implemented, this SAGA part becomes open-source and we can use upcoming standalone to bring-up FPU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P63RiFz4brQ&t=0s
Wether or not the FPU is in working condition, but doesnt fit the FPGA is a moot point for me.
I think the developers knows best (better than most of us anyhow) what fits the roadmap AND the FPGA itself as it is. What Is needed first etc.
Sounds like the FPU is pushed back to the standalone, which sounds reasonable enough for me.
Others might think differently, and thats fine too.
Iggy;
With regards to modeling programs, there is always Cinema4d;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoJ-RsWLd2g
This is a very old Vampire Core demostration, but it atleast shows the potential, even without FPU. The question is obviously; could a updated version taking advantage of all the features of Vampire/Apollo have a even higher performance, or would most of it hinge on FPU. I dont even know, as Im not a coder.
Cinema4d is owned by AEON if memory serves me right, so that is something for Trevor/Matthew to consider...
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the fpu was not finished according to what gunnar said. it worked to certain extent, but there were incompatibilities left and features missing, which caused for instance mac os to crash under shape shifter. therefore it has been disabled. because it was not compatible enough to guarantee regular operation, without people constantly complaining, that the fpu is there but doesnt work as they expected.
you can search german forums for appropriate posts on subject or refer to apollo site fpu subject thread. discussing gunnars character and personal attitudes has nothing much to do with the problem technically and makes it look like you have some personal issues.
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I doubt there will ever be an FPU, since it depends on asm coders being willing to put in work hours on new software, rather than ensuring compatibility with existing software.
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the fpu was not finished according to what gunnar said.
Though the marketing said something else, and he had no shame in gloating about how amazingly fast it was back then.
it worked to certain extent, but there were incompatibilities left and features missing, which caused for instance mac os to crash under shape shifter. therefore it has been disabled. because it was not compatible enough to guarantee regular operation, without people constantly complaining, that the fpu is there but doesnt work as they expected.
Yes, there are incompatibilities, and it is not just the FPU. As time goes on, and there are more and more users, more and more incompatibility issues will appear. I do wonder how "the team" will deal with this, as Gunnar is all about moving forward and leaving whatever compatibility issues behind, for the sake of performance.
It is funny and ironic how the OS3.x community now may get its own equivalent to the A1222 Tabor. :laughing:
you can search german forums for appropriate posts on subject or refer to apollo site fpu subject thread. discussing gunnars character and personal attitudes has nothing much to do with the problem technically and makes it look like you have some personal issues.
The Apollo Core is all about Gunnar - it's frustratingly enough his character and personal attitudes that shape the development of the CPU core that is touted to be "the future" of the Amiga. What would be your estimation regarding the "bus factor" of the Apollo Core project?
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@kolla:
another load of emotional personal considerations about the person "gunnar". what should i say to all these assumptions and estimates? simply stand back and see how this will roll off.
on the contrary to tabor board or aone1222, as they like to call it, a fpga core is not set in stone. the more users the more chances to iron out the bugs. will these chances be taken seriously? we will see.
btw, have you now confirmed aros68k booting on mist or not? this would be something constructive to test rather than ranting against gunnar, especially if you want to stupport alternatives to apollo and vampire projects.
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Though the marketing said something else, and he had no shame in gloating about how amazingly fast it was back then.
Yes, there are incompatibilities, and it is not just the FPU. As time goes on, and there are more and more users, more and more incompatibility issues will appear. I do wonder how "the team" will deal with this, as Gunnar is all about moving forward and leaving whatever compatibility issues behind, for the sake of performance.
It is funny and ironic how the OS3.x community now may get its own equivalent to the A1222 Tabor. :laughing:
The Apollo Core is all about Gunnar - it's frustratingly enough his character and personal attitudes that shape the development of the CPU core that is touted to be "the future" of the Amiga. What would be your estimation regarding the "bus factor" of the Apollo Core project?
At the end of the day, Gunnar is the lead developer, so its hardly suprising his philosophy is the one that sets the direction of the project. I dont see a problem with that. If its not your cup of tea at the moment, then dont buy into it. If it later on satisfies the requirements you have for usage, then great.
If not, you have your legacy hardware OR other projects like Jens/Individual Computers, Terrible Fire, and others.
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I doubt there will ever be an FPU, since it depends on asm coders being willing to put in work hours on new software, rather than ensuring compatibility with existing software.
if people cannot be bothered to put even few hours writing software to test, hey have no say about someone elses project he has likely put thosuands of hours into. simple as that.
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Yes, there are incompatibilities, and it is not just the FPU. As time goes on, and there are more and more users, more and more incompatibility issues will appear. I do wonder how "the Team" will deal with this, as Gunnar is all about moving forward and leaving whatever compatibility issues behind, for the sake of performance.
So you see incompatibilities, yet fail to put the work into making clear-cut bug reports with small snippets of example code that invariably lead to crashes? Why do you then expect somebody else to hunt ghosts? 99% of the alleged incompatibilities are just bad demo or game coding or long standing bugs and software mismatches that now get attributed to the Vampire. There surely are bugs in the core. Hardly anything man made is perfect. Go read the Silicon errata for the various 68k processors out there.
Even a reproducible crash in a specific place of a program like a branch into no-man's land isn't enough to find a CPU bug because the real problem could have happened millions of instructions before. The Team you like to put into derisive quotation marks has been working in their spare time and provided hundreds of test cases and has found dozens of bugs in the CPU. And we paid for our Vampires just as you did. But you rather take a comfortable position as a big-talking paying customer demanding bug fixes and features. You are what we called a leech back in the Amiga coding days.
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if people cannot be bothered to put even few hours writing software to test, hey have no say about someone elses project he has likely put thosuands of hours into. simple as that.
Maybe advertising the FPU before it is ready is a bad idea then?
Btw - who were contacted 12+ months ago?
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Maybe advertising the FPU before it is ready is a bad idea then?
You are constantly confusing the Apollo Core with the 080 in the Vampire despite the fact that you have been told several times that there is a difference. And yes, you have managed to find a couple of quotes where the two were confused by Gunnar himself. Congratulations. Again: the Apollo Core does have an FPU. If you are looking for a softcore to license and for some reason don't want to use an ARM, PPC or whatever-softcore, you can ask Gunnar for a quote. And you can have it with ColdFire-compatibility or without. The 080 in the Vampire is derived from the Apollo Core which doesn't mean it is identical to it.
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Maybe advertising the FPU before it is ready is a bad idea then?
Btw - who were contacted 12+ months ago?
we have heard that now for hundred times. okay. now what?
you dont like your vampire, sell it. youll probably get a premium price and cash up on your investment. so what about that mist test i asked you about?
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So you see incompatibilities, yet fail to put the work into making clear-cut bug reports with small snippets of example code that invariably lead to crashes?
Yes, I do not work for "the team", correctly observed. It is my understanding, as your answer also suggests, that only clear-cut bug reports containing code snippets is what matters. Meaning that if the program failing is proprietary, one would go through disassembling the binaries to find snippets, or what?
Why do you then expect somebody else to hunt ghosts?
Nope, I don't expect much at all - that is rather the point.
99% of the alleged incompatibilities are just bad demo or game coding or long standing bugs and software mismatches that now get attributed to the Vampire. There surely are bugs in the core. Hardly anything man made is perfect. Go read the Silicon errata for the various 68k processors out there.
Exactly, but we are pretty much stuck with long standing bugs and software mismatches, as well as legal problems and what else.
Even a reproducible crash in a specific place of a program like a branch into no-man's land isn't enough to find a CPU bug because the real problem could have happened millions of instructions before. The Team you like to put into derisive quotation marks has been working in their spare time and provided hundreds of test cases and has found dozens of bugs in the CPU. And we paid for our Vampires just as you did. But you rather take a comfortable position as a big-talking paying customer demanding bug fixes and features. You are what we called a leech back in the Amiga coding days.
What I "demand" is:
* a lot more accurate marketing - just look at this...
http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=features
So we know the FPU is, at best, dysfunctional - what about the rest? Is this page at all trustworthy if one wants to know what is current state? Or does it require wading through forums such as eab and a1k, filtering propaganda and rumours from reality?
* a lot more accurate marketing - "buy it for what it is" we are told, but it can be damn hard to know what it actually is at any given time, since all information and marketing coming from "you guys" (what to call it - it is not a company, and we are told Vampire and Apollo Core are two very different things) is about what it potentially can be (typically in next core releases).
* a lot more accurate marketing - all the people surrounding the project, who do not have the hardware, who have not used it, yet are mighty opinionated about how truly breathtakingly awesome it is, and are allowed to spread this .. truthiness pretty much undisturbed.
* a lot more accurate marketing - are buyers who buy from AmigaKit and other retailers made aware that they are participating in some sort of beta program? How long can one expect the current V500v2+ and V600v2 cards to be supported by Apollo Core?
* modesty and politeness in general. Guess I can now add "leech" to the rather long list of terms used by "you guys" on me.
I was told that only if I could see and use the Vampire myself, I would be convinced.
I was told that I should shut up since I did not even have a Vampire myself.
It was only logical that I should buy Vampire, right? So I did, both of them.
Am I convinced? Not really. Should I still shut up? Apparently. :laughing:
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You are constantly confusing the Apollo Core with the 080 in the Vampire despite the fact that you have been told several times that there is a difference. And yes, you have managed to find a couple of quotes where the two were confused by Gunnar himself. Congratulations. Again: the Apollo Core does have an FPU. If you are looking for a softcore to license and for some reason don't want to use an ARM, PPC or whatever-softcore, you can ask Gunnar for a quote. And you can have it with ColdFire-compatibility or without. The 080 in the Vampire is derived from the Apollo Core which doesn't mean it is identical to it.
Brilliant - I am looking for a softcore to license, for two FPGA cards I have.
http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/faq
Q: Do Vampires have a FPU ?
A: The implemented FPU will be a 68060 compatible FPU. FPU is currently disabled and is a WIP.
Is this trustworthy information?
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I was told that only if I could see and use the Vampire myself, I would be convinced.
I was told that I should shut up since I did not even have a Vampire myself.
It was only logical that I should buy Vampire, right? So I did, both of them.
Am I convinced? Not really. Should I still shut up? Apparently. :laughing:
im not sure who told you all this. certainly not me. and you have had your say again and again. you are free to repeat it to the death, but isnt there something more interesting to do?
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Yes, I do not work for "the team", correctly observed. It is my understanding, as your answer also suggests, that only clear-cut bug reports containing code snippets is what matters. Meaning that if the program failing is proprietary, one would go through disassembling the binaries to find snippets, or what?
Nope, I don't expect much at all - that is rather the point.
Exactly, but we are pretty much stuck with long standing bugs and software mismatches, as well as legal problems and what else.
What I "demand" is:
* a lot more accurate marketing - just look at this...
http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=features
So we know the FPU is, at best, dysfunctional - what about the rest? Is this page at all trustworthy if one wants to know what is current state? Or does it require wading through forums such as eab and a1k, filtering propaganda and rumours from reality?
* a lot more accurate marketing - "buy it for what it is" we are told, but it can be damn hard to know what it actually is at any given time, since all information and marketing coming from "you guys" (what to call it - it is not a company, and we are told Vampire and Apollo Core are two very different things) is about what it potentially can be (typically in next core releases).
* a lot more accurate marketing - all the people surrounding the project, who do not have the hardware, who have not used it, yet are mighty opinionated about how truly breathtakingly awesome it is, and are allowed to spread this .. truthiness pretty much undisturbed.
* a lot more accurate marketing - are buyers who buy from AmigaKit and other retailers made aware that they are participating in some sort of beta program? How long can one expect the current V500v2+ and V600v2 cards to be supported by Apollo Core?
* modesty and politeness in general. Guess I can now add "leech" to the rather long list of terms used by "you guys" on me.
I was told that only if I could see and use the Vampire myself, I would be convinced.
I was told that I should shut up since I did not even have a Vampire myself.
It was only logical that I should buy Vampire, right? So I did, both of them.
Am I convinced? Not really. Should I still shut up? Apparently. :laughing:
And your point is?
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Yes, I do not work for "the Team", correctly observed. It is my understanding, as your answer also suggests, that only clear-cut bug reports containing code snippets is what matters. Meaning that if the program failing is proprietary, one would go through disassembling the binaries to find snippets, or what?
What do you think we team-members-without-quotation-marks do?
I'm pretty sure with your interest in unixoid operating systems you are familiar with other projects and how "bug reports" like "it crashes" and "when will feature X be implemented?" are treated there.
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The 080 in the Vampire is derived from the Apollo Core which doesn't mean it is identical to it.
Sounds like you got a weasel lawyer to come up with that one. Using that argument completely destroys any hope that the project could ever produce something that I would want to buy.
It's a shame.
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Sounds like you got a weasel lawyer to come up with that one. Using that argument completely destroys any hope that the project could ever produce something that I would want to buy.
Well, then please understand that before the Vampire 2 there was a Vampire 1 and that had (as an alternative to the tg68 it came with) another core that was derived from the Apollo Core. Because of space constraints of the tiny FPGA it was single-scalar and only had partial 020 Support (and, of course, no FPU). How does this fit with your approach Apollo Core == Vampire core?
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You are constantly confusing the Apollo Core with the 080 in the Vampire despite the fact that you have been told several times that there is a difference. And yes, you have managed to find a couple of quotes where the two were confused by Gunnar himself. Congratulations. Again: the Apollo Core does have an FPU. If you are looking for a softcore to license and for some reason don't want to use an ARM, PPC or whatever-softcore, you can ask Gunnar for a quote. And you can have it with ColdFire-compatibility or without. The 080 in the Vampire is derived from the Apollo Core which doesn't mean it is identical to it.
I have never seen that statement anywhere.
Can you verify it? Because frankly that interests me more than Vampire, particularly if they have some Coldfire compatibility (although who knows how they address overlapping instructions).
And, if there were issues with the core's fpu, how reliable is the Apollo core as a stand alone?
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Because frankly that interests me more than Vampire, particularly if they have some Coldfire compatibility (although who knows how they address overlapping instructions).
It's likely an either-or option. Perhaps you could ask for a hardware switch. I'd suppose that's just a matter of the license contract and the moneys involved. And, if there were issues with the core's fpu, how reliable is the Apollo core as a stand alone?
I'm not sure I understand. You mean you suspect that the Apollo Core is not as thoroughly debugged as a softcore you would license from ARM Ltd.? That could well be.
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It's likely an either-or option. Perhaps you could ask for a hardware switch. I'd suppose that's just a matter of the license contract and the moneys involved. I'm not sure I understand. You mean you suspect that the Apollo Core is not as thoroughly debugged as a softcore you would license from ARM Ltd.? That could well be.
Thanks, worth knowing.
Maybe I will get back in touch with Gunnar and discuss this.
There could be some pretty broad applications.
BTW - You don't know which Coldfire family they are targeting, do you (V1, V2, etc.)?
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BTW - You don't know which Coldfire family they are targeting, do you (V1, V2, etc.)?
Unfortunately not.
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Unfortunately not.
No big deal, its not a primary consideration, and its likely to be Coldfire V1 (as that is available publicly).
How is work progressing on adapting the core to an '020 socket?
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How is work progressing on adapting the core to an '020 socket?
No such project. The v1200 would not connect onto the processor like the v600 does but to the A1200's expansion port. AFAIK the core is preprared for 32bit access to chipmem/Amiga-bus.
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No such project. The v1200 would not connect onto the processor like the v600 does but to the A1200's expansion port. AFAIK the core is preprared for 32bit access to chipmem/Amiga-bus.
Well, the Amiga bus is essentially based on a 68000 processor, which could limit applications, but the A1200's expansion port ought to be similar to Zorro3 (I'm not that familiar with it).
Any input here guys?
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For me the vampire V2 is the sole reason a got back in to owing and using an Amiga again. To date i have spend around £650 pimping out my Amiga 600. As a comparison it blows away my A4000 EC30 2+16MB i used to own.
Would I like a 68060 style MMU and FPU damn YES, am I losing sleep over it NO. It works just fine with OS 3.9 running a nice large screen.
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/pheginbotham/Amiga/IMG_20170528_150015_zpsh3fkdqex.jpg)
I think there should be a Topic called "I hate the Apollo \ Vampire because ....." for some people on this thread.
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...I think there should be a Topic called "I hate the Apollo \ Vampire because ....." for some people on this thread.
As "some people", I get tired of the self justifying BS of various people in different Amiga "camps".
In particular this "I don't care about the floating point unit" crap.
The non-standard fpu is the reason I'm not buying the A1222/Tabor.
And Vampire doesn't interest me without an fpu.
Doesn't mean I "hate" anything, just that I have different requirements than you.
In fact, that thought that this could grow into a replacement for the Amiga itself intrigues me.
Once the A1200 Vampire is released, I'd like to see if it will work in a system with a PCI bus board.
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Well, the Amiga bus is essentially based on a 68000 processor, which could limit applications, but the A1200's expansion port ought to be similar to Zorro3
Zorro1 == A500/1000 sideport == 68000 bus
Zorro2 == Zorro1 + some stuff for autoconfig
Zorro3 == Zorro2 when used with Zorro2 cards but something far more complicated when used with Zorro3 cards
A1200 expansion == 68ec20 bus (24bit address/32bit data)
Simplified for your needs.
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...Simplified for your needs.
Gracias, that helps.
And "simplified"? It does suit me. :lol:
A1200 expansion=EC'020, eh?
That could work.
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The non-standard fpu is the reason I'm not buying the A1222/Tabor.
as if it was everybodys interest, what you are buying and what not.
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as if it was everybodys interest, what you are buying and what not.
You, I don't care about, other's purchases I want to know about, and the reasoning that drew them to that purchase, so yes I feel the need to explain my logic.
You're always free not to read it (or comment on it). :hammer:
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Zorro1 == A500/1000 sideport == 68000 bus
Zorro2 == Zorro1 + some stuff for autoconfig
No, that is wrong.
the A500/A1000 expansion port is roughly equivalent to the CPU slot in the A2000.
Zorro 1 = square expansion cards that were used in ranger prototype & byte by byte pal/pal jr
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1363
http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/paljr
http://www.vintageisthenewold.com/prototype-found-amiga-ranger/
Notice how Garganturam is used on both & byte by byte were using the A2090 prototype which wasn't finished. I would love to know more details about that deal.
Zorro 2 = Zorro 1 using ISA card form factor.
The rationale was that lots of companies were making ISA cards, so it would be cheaper to make Zorro 2 cards the same form factor. It may also have had something to do with commodore germany loving PC's & wanting the A2000 to have Zorro 2 and ISA slots.
I don't know if Zorro 1 was called that, or if it was just Zorro.
Well, then please understand that before the Vampire 2 there was a Vampire 1 and that had (as an alternative to the tg68 it came with) another core that was derived from the Apollo Core. Because of space constraints of the tiny FPGA it was single-scalar and only had partial 020 Support (and, of course, no FPU). How does this fit with your approach Apollo Core == Vampire core?
Vampire 2 had a bigger FPGA, so it didn't need to use the cut down Vampire 1 core. That doesn't really help whatever it is your argument is.
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Vampire 2 had a bigger FPGA, so it didn't need to use the cut down Vampire 1 core. That doesn't really help whatever it is your argument is.
My argument is that Apollo Core != Vampire Core. E.g. Apollo Core is three-way superscalar while the core in the Vampire is only two-way superscalar. The core in the v2 is (again) just a core derived from the more feature-complete Apollo Core but better debugged and more thoroughly tested. Thus, it is correct to say that the Apollo Core has an FPU while the core in the Vampire has none. It's like "pro" and "consumer" level variants of a product.
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http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/faq
Q: Do Vampires have a FPU ?
A: The implemented FPU will be a 68060 compatible FPU. FPU is currently disabled and is a WIP.
What does this mean then?
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It means 060 compatible FPU is not working and its work in progress, just like its stated.... If you want to get Apollo core for some other use like running your washing machine you can ask Gunnar about available FPU options....
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2014 when we moved from TG68.C to Apollo core, it was called as Phoenix Core mini:
https://vimeo.com/114893828
Gunnar spent a lot of time and effort to shrink full Apollo core to the Vampire 1 FPGA. Many features must be left out due to lack of space on V1 FPGA. Later with V2 we actually had a few FPU instruction, but they made more harm than good.
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So...how large IS the full Apollo core?
BTW - Most of this info is completely new to me, so I appreciate that after much pain, we are now discussing it.
IF the plan is to continue to enhance the Vampire project with bigger, faster FPGAs, with more features implemented from this core (as well as features yet unimplemented), THEN, of course you have my full support.
AND, I might even be will to excuse some of the sky-high hyperbole.
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http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/faq
What does this mean then?
You are quoting from a site that is run by somebody as a free service to the project. I'm sure you know how to find out who it is and that it is not Gunnar. The information you quoted is inaccurate to say the least. You know that as well as anybody else. I wouldn't believe you that you didn't know that there was no FPU when you ordered your Vampire cards and that this misinformation tricked you into buying two of them.
The Vampire cards are Igor's product, Gunnar just provides the core for them on a voluntary basis. I understand that under normal circumstances a customer would not have to care about the internals of this entire project but nothing about this project and the market surrounding it is normal.
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@grond
What?
No, I consider it the most official site for information about Vampire, it's from there I ordered the boards!
So, if that is not the official source for information about the core running on the Vampire, then what is? Majsta's site?
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Will the new core have a remote start like my car? I heard it somewhere.
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Will the new core have a remote start like my car? I heard it somewhere.
No, you misinterpreted that.
It will start your car remotely. :lol:
Look there's a lot of friction here about the Vampire project, but it IS a hobbyist project.
If you want real drama about a commercial endeavor you need to look at the BigRAM thread.
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If you want real drama about a commercial endeavor you need to look at the BigRAM thread.
wtf? jens forgot to mention that it will be slow as hell and people are climbing the walls? i doubt that. dont really remember customers being disappointed with this gimmick as much as audience commenting on every development of apollo core or vampire, be it the raam amount it comes with. which is actually a good sign.
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wtf? jens forgot to mention that it will be slow as hell and people are climbing the walls? i doubt that. dont really remember customers being disappointed with this gimmick as much as audience commenting on every development of apollo core or vampire, be it the raam amount it comes with. which is actually a good sign.
Not so much that its slow, as they simply haven't been able to get it to work.
And a lot of my commentary on the Vampire project is related to my lack of understanding about how separate the Apollo team and the Vampire team are.
All the hype from Gunnar doesn't help, or the editing of threads destroying their continuity. But, long term this particular FPGA project could do a lot of good.
Although...its still not going to replace my MorphOS hardware. :hammer:
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Not so much that its slow, as they simply haven't been able to get it to work.
And a lot of my commentary on the Vampire project is related to my lack of understanding about how separate the Apollo team and the Vampire team are.
All the hype from Gunnar doesn't help, or the editing of threads destroying their continuity. But, long term this particular FPGA project could do a lot of good.
Although...its still not going to replace my MorphOS hardware. :hammer:
I dont know how hard it can be, Apollo is a 68k softcore. Vampire board uses a adapted version of the Apollo core. People dont want or just cant understand this but its very simple, there are many versions of the Apollo core, one just seems to fit our beloved Amiga....Thanks to the hard work of the A-team.
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I'm actually an 68K fanatic, which by default makes me a fan of the Amiga, but "beloved" might be an exaggeration for my attachment to the design.
So your information, at least to me, has been rather encouraging.
Plus, the Apollo work can definitely be used in other projects, so its of added interest to me.
Thanks for clearing things up.
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The information you quoted is inaccurate to say the least. You know that as well as anybody else.
Maybe you should better inform Djole then, and other people out there who still are under the assumption that a 060 compatible FPU is work in progress?
It means 060 compatible FPU is not working and its work in progress, just like its stated....
No, the FAQ entry on the site, is as Grond now has confirmed, "inaccurate to say the least".
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that all the hype and misinformation leads to. The people running the show, "the apollo team", "the vampire team", and whoever, really need to get the act together and be a lot more accurate about what they are selling.
I wouldn't believe you that you didn't know that there was no FPU when you ordered your Vampire cards and that this misinformation tricked you into buying two of them.
No, I was not tricked, I clearly ordered the two Vampires for the sole reason to nag and whine, right? I mean, anyone without a card is immidiately not allowed to word any criticism, so why not pay for the right to do so.
When I ordered...
* the FPU was said to be "different", but this could easily be fixed with a small update to SetPatch and some 68080.library type of solution
* the FPU was supposedly "very soon", not that I had much faith in it
* the FPU was not cancelled, as it apparently is now
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Maybe you should better inform Djole then, and other people out there who still are under the assumption that a 060 compatible FPU is work in progress?
No, the FAQ entry on the site, is as Grond now has confirmed, "inaccurate to say the least".
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that all the hype and misinformation leads to. The people running the show, "the apollo team", "the vampire team", and whoever, really need to get the act together and be a lot more accurate about what they are selling.
No, I was not tricked, I clearly ordered the two Vampires for the sole reason to nag and whine, right? I mean, anyone without a card is immidiately not allowed to word any criticism, so why not pay for the right to do so.
When I ordered...
* the FPU was said to be "different", but this could easily be fixed with a small update to SetPatch and some 68080.library type of solution
* the FPU was supposedly "very soon", not that I had much faith in it
* the FPU was not cancelled, as it apparently is now
Gunnar always said people should buy it for what it offers now not what potentially it will offer in future. If you bought it primarly to run software on it that needs FPU or MMU and are not able or willing to wait (at least for FPU) then do us a favor and sell the boards again. I am pretty sure that people will give you the full price you paid and then there are 2 new happy users and one unhappy less. Good idea?
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You dont belong to our sect!
You must leave!
:D
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What do you think we team-members-without-quotation-marks do?
Try hard to recreate the problems and bugs that people report, dissemble, narrow things down, create your own code to trigger the bugs, and then pass it on to Gunnar so he can fix the core. I guess. Do you expect the same of all the people who buy the boards as well?
I'm pretty sure with your interest in unixoid operating systems you are familiar with other projects and how "bug reports" like "it crashes" and "when will feature X be implemented?" are treated there.
Yes, it's a wonderful world of open sources, debug binaries, great compilers, resource trackers, tracers, debuggers, colourful output etc. :)
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Gunnar always said people should buy it for what it offers now not what potentially it will offer in future.
Where do customers find this information?
The number one person to offer fantasies about what the core will offer in the future has been Gunnar himself.
If you bought it primarly to run software on it that needs FPU or MMU and are not able or willing to wait (at least for FPU) then do us a favor and sell the boards again.
I bought them to experience first hand, and I am quite more interested in how SAGA will be than in the CPU.
The problems I have with the FPU are:
* it was hyped
* it was postponed
* it was claimed useless, a claim about "99% of the software does not need it"
* anyone protesting the above claim are named clueless idiots by the man
* it is still on the very site that sells cards and distributes the cores that it is a 060 FPU that is WIP, despite Gunnar being very clear that it is not a 060 FPU
* it was dropped as Gunnar now see greener fields in the future, so back to the first point on this list... hyping. Rinse and repeat?
The problem with the MMU is not really mine, it is just something that renders the core useless for so many potential customers. I also resent the idea that MMU is useless for Amiga users, but of course saying so renders me an idiot again. Anyways, according to Gunnar, the Apollo Core does have an MMU, it just isn't exposed.
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Where do customers find this information?.
Really? Isn't that common sense? Why buy a product for what you think it might be in the future? Buy something for what it is at time of purchase, otherwise wait.
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Gunnar has made several requests for people to assist with the FPU on Apollo forum, but those calls has always been left unanswered.
That doesnt invalidate your desire to have FPU, but no response doesnt encourage the them to change their priorities. Long to-do list and limited resorces.
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Another tidbit with actual FPU benchmarks:
https://blog.alb42.de/?s=fpu (https://blog.alb42.de/?s=fpu)
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Really? Isn't that common sense? Why buy a product for what you think it might be in the future? Buy something for what it is at time of purchase, otherwise wait.
Ridiculous excuse. We are constantly told what it will do in the future, but "don't buy it for that".
Gunnar has made several requests for people to assist with the FPU on Apollo forum, but those calls has always been left unanswered.
That doesnt invalidate your desire to have FPU, but no response doesnt encourage the them to change their priorities. Long to-do list and limited resorces.
Gunnar has claimed it is for the most part done.
Again, thing claim is an excuse.
Another tidbit with actual FPU benchmarks:
https://blog.alb42.de/?s=fpu (https://blog.alb42.de/?s=fpu)
+1
As in, YES, it DOES make a big difference, guys.
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Ridiculous excuse. We are constantly told what it will do in the future, but "don't buy it for that".
Gunnar has claimed it is for the most part done.
Again, thing claim is an excuse.
+1
As in, YES, it DOES make a big difference, guys.
I wouldnt call it an excuse when Gunnar doesnt prioritise it, and ask people to basically convince him otherwise thru code and not just generic demands.
THAT said, the benchmarks and commentary made in that blog is very intresting and convincing.
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Ridiculous excuse. We are constantly told what it will do in the future, but "don't buy it for that".
Absolutely not ridiculous, and not an excuse. It's a fact. Everyone wants to know where the product is heading, what future plans are, but they are clearly not set in stone. If you buy a product for features that are hoped/planned for the future you are clearly making a mistake. Buy for what a product is today, otherwise wait until the feature you are looking for is implemented. Plans change.
It's pretty sad how many drama queens we have in this community. The Vampire is an awesome product, the best product in many years for the Amiga, yet some people still have nothing better to do than bitch and complain about it.
Then don't buy it! Or, if you have because you just couldn't wait and are now "unhappy", sell it to someone who wants one!
They can't make these things fast enough and there are plenty of people out there willing to buy them.
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Absolutely not ridiculous, and not an excuse....
Yes it is BOTH, and as a "drama queen", I haven't bought one yet.
Further, while you and Niding my both be unapologetic fanboys, its pretty easy to poke holes in your statements.
Gunnar didn't need other programmers or code to test an fpu, there are plenty of available packages that use floating point routines already in existence.
If he's having trouble getting it done, just admit it.
Excuses about priorities or statements about the current purchasers are merely obfuscation.
And, as Niding admitted, its obviously a useful feature, as even with its higher clock speed, a Vampire takes MUCH longer to perform fpu commands via emulation.
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If he's having trouble getting it done, just admit it.
Excuses about priorities or statements about the current purchasers are merely obfuscation.
Priority is the reason. With tons of users clamoring for AGA support and native display over HDMI, plus the drive to release a standalone product, why would he focus on an FPU which only a handful of users need? Especially when they are selling them as fast as they can make them, why would you expect them to deviate from their current path?
They are focusing on what they, and most users, consider most important first.
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Lots of cool stuff uses FPU, i.e. music players, old school 3d rendering packages and games just to name a few.
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Priority is the reason. With tons of users clamoring for AGA support and native display over HDMI, plus the drive to release a standalone product, why would he focus on an FPU which only a handful of users need? Especially when they are selling them as fast as they can make them, why would you expect them to deviate from their current path?
They are focusing on what they, and most users, consider most important first.
Handful of users? FPU capability would have utility for ALL users.
Although I will admit AGA has appeal, certainly more than new multimedia instructions or 16 bit sound (both features that aren't supported by ANY existing software unless you consider NG software).
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Hi Iggy,
So where do we find these existing routines for FPU ?
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Another binary causing 8000 000B on Vampire...
http://aminet.net/package/util/libs/WizardLibrary
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Hi Iggy,
So where do we find these existing routines for FPU ?
Seriously?
In many MP3 players, a few video games I can think of (like ClickBoom's port of Quake), most 3D graphic software...
If Gunnar is having a problem finding packages that can use fpu routines, he isn't trying very hard.
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The team views AGA and chipset dev priority right now. I have seen the team work and they know their stuff. Look how much has been done by so few.
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Yes it is BOTH, and as a "drama queen", I haven't bought one yet.
Further, while you and Niding my both be unapologetic fanboys, its pretty easy to poke holes in your statements.
Gunnar didn't need other programmers or code to test an fpu, there are plenty of available packages that use floating point routines already in existence.
If he's having trouble getting it done, just admit it.
Excuses about priorities or statements about the current purchasers are merely obfuscation.
And, as Niding admitted, its obviously a useful feature, as even with its higher clock speed, a Vampire takes MUCH longer to perform fpu commands via emulation.
As an enduser with virtually no coding skills, and absolutely no developer skill/expirience I have no idea what Gunnars request entails. He did point out that it would require committing to significant time offered and asm.
Noone has taken him up on it.
Im not going to pretend I know what he needs from the coder, do you?
Either way, with noone stepping up, they seem intent on following their own priorities, which I see no need to be negative about, since I contribute absolutly zero to the work, which I think is the case for the majority of us.
Why you feel inclined to call me a fanboi just cause I accept they follow their own internal map is beyond me.
I could rant and rave about xyz not being done yet, but it wont make development process go any faster, and it just demoralizes the team. They are actually humans afterall.
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As an enduser with virtually no coding skills, and absolutely no developer skill/expirience I have no idea what Gunnars request entails. He did point out that it would require committing to significant time offered and asm.
Noone has taken him up on it.
Im not going to pretend I know what he needs from the coder, do you?
Either way, with noone stepping up, they seem intent on following their own priorities, which I see no need to be negative about, since I contribute absolutly zero to the work, which I think is the case for the majority of us.
Why you feel inclined to call me a fanboi just cause I accept they follow their own internal map is beyond me.
I could rant and rave about xyz not being done yet, but it wont make development process go any faster, and it just demoralizes the team. They are actually humans afterall.
Why noone step up to do it. Because he demands something the most people do not want:
see here this old "Deleted" apollo FPU discussion
http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5385&order=&x=5 (http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5385&order=&x=5)
see the 3rd entry.
he wants something like RIVA, so an incompatible Powerapplication only fast/only work on Apollo therefore it has to be plain written in assembler. when you browse further in this thread you will find a lot offers for routines (raytracing, 3d stuff usually) to test the implementation.
I even would do that, even in assembler if I have to be... but only to develop an incompatible new instruction set like AMMX.. no thanks.
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So where do we find these existing routines for FPU ?
As far as I understand, there is currently a prototype 80-bit (extended precision) FPU which supports the basic operations +,-,*,/ and sqrt, but none of the transcendental math functions of the 68881/882. Support functions for the latter are certainly available, you can still download the 68060 FPSP (floating point support package) from Motorola/Freescale/whatever they are called today.
From what I understand the 80bit FPU is, however, no longer on Gunnar's agenda. Here is more looking into a 64 bit (double precision only) FPU for which some FPGAs offer direct support (i.e. no need to sacrifice gates for it as it is already pre-routed on the chip). The advantage would be higher speed, and a high degree of parallelism (i.e. vector units).
Drawback is that it is only 64 bit. It makes probably not much of a practical difference (mathieeedoubbas is 64bit only, too), though for the 68060FPSP, you'd likely need extended precision in some places internally to support 64 bit double precision as output.
I talked with Gunnar about the possibilities (full floating point support with software as in the 68060 with assembler support, full floating point support with a microcode engine using CORDIC) and I personally would prefer the 80bit unit even it is slower due to full compatibilitiy.
For example, if the currently existing 80 bit FPU would offer the same software traps as the 68060, it would be a rather immediate step to port the 68060FPSP over, though the software layer could be a bit simpler with smarter hardware. Due to the simpicity of the 68060 stack frame, the 68060 has to decode all unsupported FPU instructions by hand, including address resolution and operand lookup - which costs more performance than necessary. The current core could for example already decode operands, avoiding the double work.
In the end, it got nowhere since it was not really clear to me where Gunnar would like to go (probably 64 bit only and ditch the existing 80 bit core - but then what about the transcendental functions?).
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People don't grasp that the FPU Gunnar wants is not the FPU found in 060, 040 or 68882 - he wants to build a new one, his own super duper FPU that only works with software written specifically for it. Like AMMX. No support for existing compilers, only assembler. And he wants someone to step up and write a killer app for it, so its superiority can be demonstrated. Well, I have Riva, the AMMX killer app, and it is rather lame as it only plays mpeg1, it's like having an old peggy+ card. Using other players, like Frogger, to play other formats, and it is back to a crawl. My 060 Amigas with FPU can play a heck lot more formats at much more acceptable speed. It boils down to having every piece if software ever written for FPU rewritten for either AMMX or the new FPU, should it ever materialize, or that someone writes a emulation layer that makes use of the new FPU (and/or AMMX). In the meantime, Gunnar likes to point out that they do have a fully working and functional 68882 implementation ready, but that he doesn't like it, as it doesn't demonstrate the true raw power of apollo core.
Yeah, well, whatever. If you want to experience a truly fast and compatible Amiga setup, there is still UAE.
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So many speculations here.
Of course that the team knows what to test for FPU. Members are not idiots, they are Amiga users. And for sharper tests they also have testcases, and knows how to write validation code. Just it takes time. When FPU will be on the work in the core, progress will be fast. At moment, the team works on something else, so we could speaks of this during 10 pages again that wont change _current_ roadmap. Let the team finish their current work instead of feeding speculations. For example, the internally 64bits or even 128bits float processing is just speculation; that this have been discussed does not mean it will. That were early discussions. That gunnar is not good in communication is a fact but that does not mean he can't change his mind, the team is more opened than that. Also, i have to tell again that FPU exists but does not fit well in the current shape and chip, but could with some strategy. You guys, Team, Members, and Users wants FPU, so there will, it can't be another way. Only thing that is true and reality is The "How" which is not yet answered.
Although I will admit AGA has appeal, certainly more than new multimedia instructions or 16 bit sound (both features that aren't supported by ANY existing software unless you consider NG software).
About the Paula improvements, there is software yet, EaglePlayer developer is working on a Pamela-Amplifier that is already working well, it is able to output modules (mods/xm/digi/...) in digital 16bits. That is not vapor-feature. It is used as a validation testcase and will be nice feature for vampire owners. Consider it brings to Vampire some Sound-card abilities, like any new soundcard on Amiga, there is no existing software, at starts, just it needs drivers or engines (like a AHI driver for example). So it seems really naysaying on this particular point.
Please, just wait that team can focus on this FPU before so much discussions.
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So many speculations here....
Please, just wait that team can focus on this FPU before so much discussions.
OK, I can wait.
I'm not sure how Kolla feels about it (having already made his purchase).
One thing I do hope, is that they will not forego legacy compatibility.
That would, in my opinion, reduce the value of the device.
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People don't grasp that the FPU Gunnar wants is not the FPU found in 060, 040 or 68882 - he wants to build a new one, his own super duper FPU that only works with software written specifically for it. Like AMMX. No support for existing compilers, only assembler. And he wants someone to step up and write a killer app for it, so its superiority can be demonstrated.
You understood that right but draw the wrong conclusions. If you have a superfast FPU in hardware, it is easy to map the standard FPU to it. If you do the standard FPU first and then the superfast FPU, it will mean double work. The prioritisation of the AGA implementation over the FPU also has a lot to do with the stand-alone coming out soon.
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If you have a superfast FPU in hardware, it is easy to map the standard FPU to it.
Actually, not quite so. The problem is that the FPUs that come with (some) FPGAs are only 64 bit FPUs, but the Motorola FPUs are 80 bit wide. For most applications, this will not make much of a difference (but frankly, most applications do not need a FPU in first place, so the discussion is a bit academic if you ask me).
Now, while it is probably correct that programs will typically not notice the difference, there *may* be an impact in the transcendental math functions. If you expect results with error bounds in double precision, you may need intermediate results with a higher precision such as 80 bits internally, IOWs, either the CORDIC engine or the FPSP requires a bit more than 64 bits.
Now, again, one can argue why one would need such instructions in first place, and if so, why in double precision. Again, see my answer above: I personally do not see too much need in the FPU anyhow. There is mathieeedoubbas and mathieeedoubtrans, and both work fine without FPU in first place (though, the implementation CPU only implementation is rather weak).
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Actually, not quite so. The problem is that the FPUs that come with (some) FPGAs are only 64 bit FPUs, but the Motorola FPUs are 80 bit wide.
Well, your statement doesn't negate mine, it renders it more precisely as I made the statement without explicitly stating that the legacy FPU mapped onto the new FPU Hardware would then, of course, only have 64bits of precision.
For most applications, this will not make much of a difference
AFAIK UAE maps the Motorola FPU instructions to the corresponding Intel processor instructions which have 64bit precision at most and nobody has ever noticed any problem with any Amiga FPU software. 64bit of precision is still an awful lot. I think it is safe to assume that the lost 16 bits of precision will not make any difference at all.
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Seriously?
In many MP3 players, a few video games I can think of (like ClickBoom's port of Quake), most 3D graphic software...
If Gunnar is having a problem finding packages that can use fpu routines, he isn't trying very hard.
Plenty of MP3 player options that don't need an FPU to choose from and with 16bit sound likely to be added to the Vampires some players may be considered obsolete if not capable of 16bit support.
I would think that there would only be a handful of games that need an FPU.
I would also think there are only an handful of masochists still using an Amiga for 3D graphics work.
The main use of an FPU is likely in the demo scene. Anecdotally much of the hardcore demo scene community are said to be "not fans" of the Vampire as it's not original Amiga/Motorola hardware (even though they may be doing most of their development on PCs). I personally, while appreciating the skills of the demo creators have no interest in installing and running the demos, I'd just watch online videos if interested in them for some reason.
Given the circumstances it's no wonder that implementing an FPU on the Vampires is not the highest priority.
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@IanP
I would also think there are only an handful of masochists still using an Amiga for 3D graphics work.
I think that would be quite a fun use of a Vampire card. Some people still enjoy messing around with Lightwave on the X1000/5000 machines so why not on the Classics? Plus FPU is useful for TFX, DrawStudio 2 and now Beats of Rage!
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AFAIK UAE maps the Motorola FPU instructions to the corresponding Intel processor instructions which have 64bit precision at most and nobody has ever noticed any problem with any Amiga FPU software. 64bit of precision is still an awful lot. I think it is safe to assume that the lost 16 bits of precision will not make any difference at all.
Huh, no! The legacy intel stack-based FPU is 80 bit, AFAIK.
If you use the SSE (vector) unit, then that's 64 bit. It really depends on the application what you need to do.
I think this model is not too bad. Have a legacy 80 bit FPU if you need to use it, and a 64 bit fast vector unit if you have applictions that require it.
Certainly, that's more work - for little benefit.
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FPU is the new rage... WinUAE just got softfloat based FPU emulation.
http://www.winuae.net/2017/06/15/winuae-3-5-0/
So now you can have FPU emulation even on 486SX? :D