Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4

[ferrellsl]

Not sure if anyone here has seen this yet, but Gizmodo and The Register have picked up stories about the Vampire:

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/08/theres-a-new-amiga-coming-out-this-year/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/08/09/new_amiga_to_land_in_late_2017/

[ferrellsl]

Define "bog standard classic Amiga", please.

It is not untrue that it is crippled by the lack of FPU.

Bog standard classic Amiga:  an unexpanded A500, A600, A2000, A1000, A1200

By your very own statement that makes every one of the above Amigas crippled by definition....simply incorrect.

[Wayne]

Please trust me when I say that I really hate being the A-hole in the room, but just as I spelled out on Whyzzat.com, "I don't  get it".

Without a solid, modern OS, hardware is irrelevant.  It doesn't matter  how fast it is, how much memory, or anything else...  That is, unless  the new hardware in question is/was never intended to be a serious  device, but more of a tinker box for hobbyists with money to spend...

Really, I would welcome something different, but unless you've got a new, user-friendly and powerful OS (which AmigaOS used to be, about 33 years ago), what could you possibly use it for that a $30 Kano kit can't already do?

Wayne

[ferrellsl]

Thats actually not true, the only reason I had "Vampire in mind" is because thats my only real Amiga with a GFX card. So to test the speed I only have that to try. UAE is very unreal and sadly there is no other GFX card for keyboard Amigas currently.
(This was my main reason to buy a Vampire, the GFX card)


I got response from people use MUIMapparium with 68060 and GFX Card (even one crazy guy use it on a 68030, notice also no FPU here).

The implementation was also not triggered by Vampire, I wanted to learn MUI/Zune and overcome some (speed and not speed related) problems on all Platforms. The initial implementation was done with ARM-AROS on a Raspi3 (on vacation, a little computer to take with me). The Video for it was just to show that it is even fast enough to make it run on a real Amiga, no relation to Vampire. (as I said just because its the only one with GFX card) so on the NG platform it will just be very smooth, but this is hard to show in a video.

I really like my Vampire (and MUIMapparium :lol:) but to take MUIMapparium as a example program for Vampire is a little bit strange. There is no special stuff inside for Vampire and will never be.

The thread you mentioned there is the MUIMapparium thread I guess, which was not opened by me, I just responded to it and later add some updates because some people asked for it.

But what I did especially for Vampire was testing the FreePascal compiler... There should be a thread as well from me. I even thought about to include some better support for it on the long run (AMMX,..), ... now... nah ... you you can guess how big my motivation is to do something on this topic.

You're actually helping me make my point because a couple individuals here keep stating that there is no real Vampire development occurring and that anything "new" being developed is simply a re-compile of some very old projects.  Mapparium is not an old project in Amiga terms.  And even you admit that it is crazy to use MUIMapparium on an 030 or lesser CPU.  So you obviously weren't developing this on a classic system for classic bog-standard 68K Amigas, but for accelerated 040/060 (which no one can afford or find anymore), WinUAE, or any other system that has more horsepower than an 030, including a Vampire.  The implementation may not have been triggered by the Vampire, but you say it was developed on one. There is almost zero development for classics on classics these days.  Most programmers use a cross-compiler paired with WinUAE for good reason, or a Vampire. I updated the PLPLOT programming library recently on a classic A1200 using Lattice C 6.58 and even with an 030 accelerator it was a painful experience.  Any further classic development that I undertake will be on a Vampire standalone when it's available and until then, under WinUAE and a Windows-based cross-compiler. Or on AROS and I will back port my AROS apps to OS3.

[kolla]

Bog standard classic Amiga:  an unexpanded A500, A600, A2000, A1000, A1200

By your very own statement that makes every one of the above Amigas crippled by definition....simply incorrect.

Yes, they are indeed crippled in a whole lot of ways. Who would not agree to this?

[ferrellsl]

Please trust me when I say that I really hate being the A-hole in the room, but just as I spelled out on Whyzzat.com, "I don't  get it".

Without a solid, modern OS, hardware is irrelevant.  It doesn't matter  how fast it is, how much memory, or anything else...  That is, unless  the new hardware in question is/was never intended to be a serious  device, but more of a tinker box for hobbyists with money to spend...

Really, I would welcome something different, but unless you've got a new, user-friendly and powerful OS (which AmigaOS used to be, about 33 years ago), what could you possibly use it for that a $30 Kano kit can't already do?

Wayne

Wow, you mean there's someone here who actually understands that Amigas are a hobby, not a religion, and not something to obsess over?  You gotta be sh@tting me!  LOL!

You're a rare breed here.  I honestly think we have forum members here who haven't touched a non-Amiga computer since the 80's and who still believe that the hardware and the OS are relevant in 2017.  Rip Van Winkles of the computer world!  LOL!

That ship sailed around 1991.

[Gulliver]

@Wayne

Yes, it is true, with an old OS there is no reasonable point in new hardware beyond hobbysts.

But then its objective is to be a commercial endeavour, and as such it will work as long as people are willing to buy.

Many people have already pointed out many alternative compatible hardware FPGA choices which are indeed much cheaper, like the one you propose.
 
But then, if someone is willing to pay for something expensive, then there will allways be someone eager to sell exactly that.

[ferrellsl]

Yes, they are indeed crippled in a whole lot of ways. Who would not agree to this?

Yes, I do agree with you on that point.  And I too am waiting for an FPU in the Vampire core, but an FPU isn't what I'd consider an urgent need.  I can wait and use the softFPU until then, or fire up WinUAE and run my FPU apps there.

I'm also waiting for an MMU but I can be patient there too.  These things will come in time.  The Vampire is a work in progress, but I also understand your frustration.  Nothing ever happens quickly in Amiga land.

[kolla]

Any further classic development that I undertake will be on a Vampire standalone when it's available

Oh, you are one of those who don't have a Vampire, yet are full of opinions about it :hammer:

Well, maybe your views change once you have one and realise that it isn't really that much of a big deal after all.

[ferrellsl]

Oh, you are one of those who don't have a Vampire, yet are full of opinions about it :hammer:

Well, maybe your views change once you have one and realise that it isn't really that much of a big deal after all.

Yes, maybe you're right.  I may find that development even on a standalone is a PITA and go back to AmiDevCPP and WinUAE.  When I was updating the PLPLOT library on my A1200, I kept asking myself, "Was computing really this slow back in 1992?"  LOL!

I guess it WAS really slow but we just didn't know any better.   We've gotten very spoiled these days and I have to keep reminding myself that the last time I was doing any Amiga coding prior to my latest PLPLOT update was 24 years ago.....that's like a couple centuries in dog years or around 12-16 generations under Moore's Law.

The Vampire has motivated me and I hope that once my standalone arrives that my motivation will continue.  For me, Amiga coding is a hobby that helps me stay sharp on my day job (LIDAR software development), not a religious experience or something that I obsess over, although some think otherwise which is fine.

[kolla]

I can wait and use the softFPU until then, or fire up WinUAE and run my FPU apps there.

Well, SoftFPU is not an option with legacy software that you cannot recompile, you are stuck with traps and the FEMU emulator.

I'm also waiting for an MMU but I can be patient there too.

The MMU is there already, but Gunnar has no plans of exposing it, it is meant to only be used for "internal" stuff (I can imagine, mapping ChipRAM addresses for SAGA and legacy I/O, and many other things)

These things will come in time.  The Vampire is a work in progress, but I also understand your frustration.  Nothing ever happens quickly in Amiga land.

You don't even get what I am "frustrated" with, at this point I don't care if there is no FPU. I am "frustrated" how the FPU has been (and still is!) marketed as the most glorious piece of excellence for 3 years, without not even one single public demo - ever! Then there was the "68882 compatible" FPU that was "really soon now", but just never was good enough. Then it was "no software use FPU anyways!". Then it was "Oh, and I just have this amazing vision about an even greater FPU, for a bigger FPGA!".

But most of all, I was "frustrated" with being told that what I use my Amiga systems for, is pointless - that the software I use, has no use, that I am idiot for using my Amiga systems for other things than "entertainment". And then an idiot for not being impressed by MPEG1 on classic systems (I mean, come on!)?

And still I wonder where one is supposed to find the actual specs of the current Apollo Core, as neither of the two web sites involved in the project have that information, and only tout superlatives (some very exaggerated), and are very eager to point out "potential features" rather than actual features.

[ALB42]

You're actually helping me make my point because a couple individuals here keep stating that there is no real Vampire development occurring and that anything "new" being developed is simply a re-compile of some very old projects.  Mapparium is not an old project in Amiga terms.  And even you admit that it is crazy to use MUIMapparium on an 030 or lesser CPU.  So you obviously weren't developing this on a classic system for classic bog-standard 68K Amigas, but for accelerated 040/060 (which no one can afford or find anymore), WinUAE, or any other system that has more horsepower than an 030, including a Vampire.  The implementation may not have been triggered by the Vampire, but you say it was developed on one. There is almost zero development for classics on classics these days.  Most programmers use a cross-compiler paired with WinUAE for good reason, or a Vampire. I updated the PLPLOT programming library recently on a classic A1200 using Lattice C 6.58 and even with an 030 accelerator it was a painful experience.  Any further classic development that I undertake will be on a Vampire standalone when it's available and until then, under WinUAE and a Windows-based cross-compiler. Or on AROS and I will back port my AROS apps to OS3.

Oh I dont want prove you right or wrong... just move it to perspective..
I did not made MUIMapparium for Vampire. Point. I do not code more or less because i have it. I create Applications for 68k a long time already I compiled Mapparium, without MUI also for 68k even it make not much sense because too slow, even on a Vampire.
I do not develop on Vampire, thats too slow, because of HD speed. I use cross compilation on Linux. We designed FreePascal that way that you really can write stuff for one Amiga platform and it just compiles and runs for all, without to really care about... so to make an Amiga 68k version (an FPU/non-FPU or an OS4 version) it's just a button click more for me and usually I do dot even try them anymore, thats the reason it took a while before I noticed that SoftFPU slowness. Thats also the main reason for RTG only, because AGA/ECS would need special work

But your conclusion is right, there are some people still writing stuff for classic, even not many. But I'm proudly one of them. :lol:

[ferrellsl]

Well, SoftFPU is not an option with legacy software that you cannot recompile, you are stuck with traps and the FEMU emulator.



The MMU is there already, but Gunnar has no plans of exposing it, it is meant to only be used for "internal" stuff (I can imagine, mapping ChipRAM addresses for SAGA and legacy I/O, and many other things)



You don't even get what I am "frustrated" with, at this point I don't care if there is no FPU. I am "frustrated" how the FPU has been (and still is!) marketed as the most glorious piece of excellence for 3 years, without not one single public demo - ever! Then there was the "68882 compatible" FPU that was "really soon now", but just never was good enough. Then it was "no software use FPU anyways!". Then it was "Oh, and I just have this amazing vision about an even greater FPU for a bigger FPGA!".

And still I wonder where one is supposed to find the actual specs of the current Apollo Core, as neither of the two web sites involved in the project have that information, and only tout superlatives (some very exaggerated), and are very eager to point out "potential features" rather than actual features.

I'm not so sure that we will have to wait for Gunnar.  There are still some very talented coders out there.  The softFPU literally came from an unknown, novice assembly coder who wrote the emulator as an exercise to hone his skills.  He just popped up on the Vampire forums one day and offered his code.  We may see more of that in the future.

If you feel you've been cheated, then I suggest you sell your Vampire and just let things go.  You could probably get more out of it now than what you paid for it. It isn't worth making yourself angry over this in the long-term

[Iggy]

Yes, they are indeed crippled in a whole lot of ways. Who would not agree to this?

I don't, for one. I have an A2000 because it is basically bullet proof. I upgraded it to ECS, and will upgrade it further with a Vampire.
I can't afford a decked out A4000, but I DO wish I'd bought an A1200 a few years ago since that strikes me as soon as a really nice, compact system.
And if you want to get weird, you can expand an A1200 pretty far.

And, unmentioned, I have my CD32, which will run just about anything that has reasonable specs.

Look, the Amiga chipset wasn't designed with '040 and '060 CPUs in mind.

By the time we got there, we were in sore need of a replacement system, which we never got.

High end Amiga are a kludged nightmare. Vampire helps simplify this situation by rendering the average Amiga a powerhouse.

Amiga snobs don't like it? Tough, because personally I think your investment in that maxed out A4000 makes you look like a fool.

[kolla]

So what's special about the apollo version?

To answer myself - what's special is how trapping works differently on the various LC/EC CPUs. Most of emulation apparently is done using the math libraries of the OS, so essientially it is doing what ThoR suggests software should do in the first place when no FPU is found.

[kolla]

I don't, for one. I have an A2000 because it is basically bullet proof. I upgraded it to ECS, and will upgrade it further with a Vampire.

Just plain A2000 just chipram and 68000, no A2620 or A2630?

I can't afford a decked out A4000, but I DO wish I'd bought an A1200 a few years ago since that strikes me as soon as a really nice, compact system.
And if you want to get weird, you can expand an A1200 pretty far.

Yeah, been there, won't bother again.

Look, the Amiga chipset wasn't designed with '040 and '060 CPUs in mind.

I don't really see what the chipset has to do with anything here, but the chipset is much more tolerable with 040 and upwards.

By the time we got there, we were in sore need of a replacement system, which we never got.

Some would argue that we did get a replacement system in retargetable graphics and audio, and the result of this which today is MorphOS.

High end Amiga are a kludged nightmare. Vampire helps simplify this situation by rendering the average Amiga a powerhouse.

Vampirised Amiga is not less kludgy, in terms of software it is very often a lot more kludgy.

Amiga snobs don't like it? Tough, because personally I think your investment in that maxed out A4000 makes you look like a fool.

Ah yes, I must be a snob. Of course, that's it. After all, I make more than twice as much per month now than what I paid to "max out" my A3000 back in 1997 with CSPPC/CVPPC. What a foolish investment that was. Never mind that the snobbish Amiga hardware I have owned also was the learning platform for at least 10-15 years, thanks to the ability to not just run AmigaOS, but also capable and modern operating systems, Linux and NetBSD. One day I should sit down and write down all the stuff I have done with and on Amiga over the years. :laughing: