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Offline ChaosLord

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #149 from previous page: November 27, 2012, 05:11:29 AM »
@TheRogue

New Project for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Amiga

I hereby request an 060 card with 32GB of RAM.

32GB is the Amiga's hard limit.  My brand new bgcpc came with 10GB in it.  Its just not right for my windoze box to have more ram than my Amiga box.

Any other limits are BS nonsense that can be worked around with some simple patches.  There are tons of Amiga programmers who can, and have, patched a zillion things in AmigaOS.  Making a few new patches to make use of the whole 32GB is no problem and the programmers will go crazy and jump for joy. :knuddel:

You will be the most loved person since Jay Miner.

I figure by the time you get around to actually making the card, you won't be able to buy less than 32GB at a time anyway :p

I wrote a msg here about how old ancient never to be updated software can make use of 32GB.  I know you don't have time to read the whole thread about 128MB Amigas so here is the 1 important message:
How to use more than 2GB of RAM with old Amiga software that wasn't designed for it
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Offline AmigaClassicRule

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #150 on: November 27, 2012, 05:24:22 AM »
Quote from: persia;716512
It IS an emulator....


Oooh.......-_____________-

Umm...never mind.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #151 on: November 27, 2012, 09:56:00 AM »
@Chaoslord the actual hardware limit is 4gigs... The 68k can never see more than that due to the 32 address lines maximum the architecture can support (and most Amigas only had 24 address lines = 16meg limit).

Software can be patched to use larger word sizes... Hardware can't.

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #152 on: November 27, 2012, 10:38:45 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;716535
@Chaoslord the actual hardware limit is 4gigs...

No.  The hardware limit of an address register is 4GB.  That is because each bank has 4GB in it.

Or another way to say it is:
There is only 4GB of directly addressable RAM but 32GB of indirectly addressable RAM.  You remember bank switching from the C64 and Intel days, right?

Quote

The 68k can never see more than that due to the 32 address lines maximum the

Who says there are only 32 address lines?

You are forgetting about the 3 lines that select what bank you are in.

Motorola thought waaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead.


Quote

(and most Amigas only had 24 address lines = 16meg limit).

8 banks of 16MB actually.  Of course the hardware has to be made in the correct way to support wiring the banks into actual different banks of RAM which no C= machine ever did.  There was no particular reason for them too.

But the point is, the 8 banks have been there since Motorola 68000.

All the 8 banks have always been wired into the same 4GB address space.

But there is no longer any reason to do that.

We have the technology.  We can go bigger, faster, stronger. :D


Quote

Software can be patched to use larger word sizes... Hardware can't.

I don't know what this comment means.  I think it has no relevance.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline Kesa

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #153 on: November 27, 2012, 11:27:50 AM »
@Chaoslord. What could you possibly do with 32Gb's of ram on an Amiga? I have 8Gb on my pc and it is more than enough. I'm sure whatever it is it would be because of inefficient use of resources.
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Offline ChaosLord

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #154 on: November 27, 2012, 11:44:32 AM »
Quote from: Kesa;716541
@Chaoslord.
I have 8Gb on my pc and it is more than enough.


Then why did you buy it?

If 8GB is too much for you then why didn't you stay at 1GB?

Why do you get to buy 8GB of ram for your pc but I don't get to buy 8GB of ram for my Amiga?

Discrimination! :insane:
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #155 on: November 27, 2012, 12:23:47 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;716536
No.  The hardware limit of an address register is 4GB.  That is because each bank has 4GB in it.

Or another way to say it is:
There is only 4GB of directly addressable RAM but 32GB of indirectly addressable RAM.  You remember bank switching from the C64 and Intel days, right?


Who says there are only 32 address lines?

You are forgetting about the 3 lines that select what bank you are in.

Motorola thought waaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead.


Wait, are you referring to FC0-FC2 function code pinouts? They aren't for "banks" in any conventional sense, they are used to indicate to any external hardware that cares (eg external MMU) what class of memory access is being made.

From the 68K documentation:

0 0 0 (Undefined, Reserved) *
0 0 1 User Data Space
0 1 0 User Program Space
0 1 1 (Undefined, Reserved) *
1 0 0 (Undefined, Reserved) *
1 0 1 Supervisor Data Space
1 1 0 Supervisor Program Space
1 1 1 CPU Space
* Address space 3 is reserved for user definition

I don't think you can arbitrarily hijack them for your own nefarious bank select *especially* on processors where the MMU is already on board.
int p; // A
 

Offline gaula92

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #156 on: November 27, 2012, 01:21:13 PM »
Quote from: persia;716512
It IS an emulator....


It's a hardware implementation, not a software emulator.
Since most people understand "emulator" as "software emulator" (ie a software running on top of a native OS emulating other hardware), FPGA implementations are NOT emulators: they run on reconfigurable hardware (programmable logic gate arrays).
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #157 on: November 27, 2012, 01:34:49 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;716547
Wait, are you referring to FC0-FC2 function code pinouts?
That is what they seem to be labeled.  I had always assumed that these "banks" were on 020+ but when I went back and reread the book it said 68000 and I didn't believe it until I looked up a Pin diagram of a 68000 and there were the pins. :eek:


Quote

 They aren't for "banks" in any conventional sense,

I had figured that out.  It seems they work differently from good old C64 banking out the ROM to get at the RAM underneath.   But nevertheless my documentation says they are usable.


Quote

 they are used to indicate to any external hardware that cares (eg external MMU) what class of memory access is being made.

From the 68K documentation:

0 0 0 (Undefined, Reserved) *
0 0 1 User Data Space
0 1 0 User Program Space
0 1 1 (Undefined, Reserved) *
1 0 0 (Undefined, Reserved) *
1 0 1 Supervisor Data Space
1 1 0 Supervisor Program Space
1 1 1 CPU Space
* Address space 3 is reserved for user definition

I don't think you can arbitrarily hijack them for your own nefarious bank select *especially* on processors where the MMU is already on board.


I see what u mean.  The internal MMU could conflict with this idea.

More research needed.

I can say one thing tho.  A 68060/040 that has no MMU does still have an MMU.  Its just not the super fancy one.  It is real basic and coarse.  Anyway maybe that could make a difference in all this.  or not :)

All I know is, the first 680x0 Asm book I ever bought  (1985?) described this as separate usable banks of RAM that could be wired separately to literal different banks of RAM.  But it says you can't use all 8 banks (don't know why, maybe because they were "reserved").

I reread it a few hours ago.  Its all in there.  It is of course possible that he did not word things quite right or that I am misunderstanding something....

But what is the purpose of the pins on 68000.  u r saying they are like for an external MMU to write protect the CODE bank and that would be about it.  

I say if the pins exist on an 060 then they can be wired up on the ram card as extra address lines.  And the MMU could still do its thing.  I don't see any reason why one must conflict with the other.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
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English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #158 on: November 27, 2012, 02:25:51 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;716555
But what is the purpose of the pins on 68000.  u r saying they are like for an external MMU to write protect the CODE bank and that would be about it.

Well, I believe the 68551 can be interfaced to the 68000 (but requires software support, it's designed for 020*). I'm not sure if it actually uses these lines, but it would seem obvious that the CPU telling the outside world what kind of bus access it is attempting would make a lot of sense for any external hardware trying to map the address to some particular physical memory ranges. But I imagine there are all sorts of other external peripheral devices that might care too.

Quote
I say if the pins exist on an 060 then they can be wired up on the ram card as extra address lines.  And the MMU could still do its thing.  I don't see any reason why one must conflict with the other.

I really don't think it's that simple. Consider the implications. First of all, the internal MMU might use those bits to determine which address translation tables to look up. Even if it didn't, depending on which side of the MMU the CPU's caches are (and it's different between 020/030 and 040/060 IIRC), when flushing a cache line, it would probably just go to whatever bank was last asserted by fiddling with the FC bits via the (privileged) moves instruction. Same with reads. I'm pretty sure that isn't desirable and the only alternative would be to run with caches disabled.

*Note that the FC0-FC2 pins are present on the 020 too, of course.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 02:29:52 PM by Karlos »
int p; // A
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #159 on: November 27, 2012, 02:51:21 PM »
I can't find those special pins on any 040 diagram.  Either they renamed them, deleted them or I went blind.  Not sure which :)
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #160 on: November 27, 2012, 02:58:10 PM »
We will never know if it works because they took the pins off the 68060. :(  Why would they put pins of awesomeness on 68000 and chop them off on 68060? :(

Or did they just rename them?
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline JimS

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #161 on: November 27, 2012, 03:48:41 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;716570
We will never know if it works because they took the pins off the 68060. :(  Why would they put pins of awesomeness on 68000 and chop them off on 68060? :(

Or did they just rename them?


So just do it like we did in the old Atari 800 days... I had a whopping 256K in my 800XL. Just map some I/O port into a spare address and use it for bank switching. So what if the only thing that extra ram was used for was a ramdisk.... it was still cool. ;-)
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Offline bloodline

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #162 on: November 27, 2012, 03:50:27 PM »
@ChaosLord I'm pretty sure Karlos is right here... F0-F2 are flags for memory management, you can't arbitrarily use them as bank selects. The documentation describes their function clearly.

The 040 and 060 doesn't need to flag memory management to the outside world as it has a built in MMU :)

Offline Kesa

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Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #163 on: November 27, 2012, 08:41:47 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;716544
Then why did you buy it?

If 8GB is too much for you then why didn't you stay at 1GB?

Why do you get to buy 8GB of ram for your pc but I don't get to buy 8GB of ram for my Amiga?

Discrimination! :insane:

I have always been below ram spec in all my laptops so this time i deliberately went over spec so to see what it felt like to be ahead  :razz:  

You didn't answer my question. Why do you need 32Gb of ram for an Amiga? Amigas are optimised for resource efficiency. You are going against Amiga kudos here. Hell, with 32Gb you could even use the internet.
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Offline darksun9210

Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #164 on: November 27, 2012, 08:53:15 PM »
damn, with 32GB, you could BE the internet. ... or aminet at anyrate...

just my 2 pence worth regarding the thread topic. I would love to see a gigabit Ethernet zorro 3 card. maybe even a PCI express daughter card for the A3/4k machines...
or an A500 sidecar that has IDE, ram, usb, and Ethernet, maybe even a graphics chip...

sorry, i'll stop dreaming...

(seriously, I bet there is a market for an Ethernet card that can bolt into the GVP HD8+ and A530...) :)

A500 Vampire2/minimegachip/lazarus/indyECS
A600 Vampire2/604n/subway/IndyECS
A1200 PiStorm32+Pi4/subway/IndyAGA
A1200 PiStorm32+Pi4/subway/IndyAGA
A1200 PiStorm32+Pi4/subway/IndyAGA
A3k C=040/CV64-3D/Xsurf100+RRoadUSB/Zoram256/acard scsi-ide-CF/IndyECS,
A4k CSMk3-060/CV64-3D/Xsurf100+RRoadUSB/Bigram256/IndyAGA, mediator+pci cards
CD32 TF360/IndyAGA
Plus an SGI O2 & consoles.