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AuthorTopic: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project  (Read 8484 times)

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Offline Hans_

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2006, 07:10:39 PM »
Quote
As all the A500 chipset's chips have obviously been individually cloned for the MiniMig, I really don't see the fuss about simply sticking each synthesized A500 chip in to it's individual FPGA. Not that I understand why you would want to do something like that in the first place other than possibly designing a drop-in replacement for specific A500 chips. Anyhow, I really don't understand why you think that MiniMig-code could not be used as a base for a new motherboard A500. I obviously am missing your point.


Actually, Dennis' approach has been to replicate the A500 in a behavioural sense based on reference manuals, software emulator code and observing behaviour of the actual hardware. AFAIK he didn't specifically divide it up into the different chips. Hence, it's not guaranteed that you could replace say the A500 Agnus with a Minimig Agnus equivalent. He didn't have to ensure that the timing of all signals connected to/from Agnus matched the timing of the original chip. The Minimig may be cycle-correct in its overall behaviour, but this doesn't mean that the internal signals have the same timing as the original A500. You'd have to reverse-engineer the signal timings for the individual chip and modify the design to take this into account.

Jens Schoenfeld & co., on the other hand, have designed replacement chips that replicate the original chipset's behaviour down to the timing of the signals between them. It's a different approach. This means that their design is guaranteed (assuming they've analysed the original timings properly) to be a drop in replacement for the original chips in a real A500.

This does NOT mean that Dennis van Weeren's approach is any less valid than the one taken by Jens Schoenfeld. Minimig works, although he's not done with bug-fixing yet. Jens Schoenfeld & co. are lucky that they have the tools to work at a lower-level. Both projects should eventually be able to run all A500 compatible software correctly.

Hans
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Offline pjhutch

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Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2006, 07:42:34 PM »
What is the point of bringing back 21 year technology again ... unless you are re-starting to build A500 or A600s again.
You won`t get PPC, AGP, PCI or any modern technology, that is what i would wait for, not this.

If they get it production then congratulations to IC, if they get to sell it in reasonable numbers then it would be a miracle...
 

Offline cv643d

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2006, 07:47:42 PM »
I have no doubt it will sell very well... If you want PPC/PCI get a Pegasos.
Amiga articles
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Offline amiga_3k

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2006, 08:14:24 PM »
If the price is right, a MiniITX sized Amiga would appeal to me, even if it were just and only OCS/ECS Amiga (Minimig). A littlebit more advanced (Jens' Clone-A MiniITX) would appeal more to me. I can surely do with some space-saving on my desk :-)

Imagine the space I could be saving dropping the 21" Mac monitor, the 9600/300 Mac, the A2000 and accessoires in favour of a MacMini with a MiniMig/Clone-A sitting on top of it, both hooked to a TFT monitor ;-)
[img align=left]http://www.elf8.nl/AMIGA_BANNER_2.gif[/img]Get a SAM, while you can! The new AMIGA is here!
 

Offline Fransexy_

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2006, 08:29:05 PM »
Quote
Poster: pjhutch  Posted: 2006/10/13 20:42:34

What is the point of bringing back 21 year technology again ... unless you are re-starting to build A500 or A600s again.
You won`t get PPC, AGP, PCI or any modern technology, that is what i would wait for, not this.

If they get it production then congratulations to IC, if they get to sell it in reasonable numbers then it would be a miracle...
 



The C=64 are even older than Amiga and less wonderfull, and the C=one and C=64 in a joystick are selling very well without the need of any miracle.
DON\'T TAKE LIFE SO SERIOUSLY AFTER ALL NOBODY GETS OUT ALIVE OF IT
 

Offline jen-ss

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2006, 11:46:56 PM »
@ amiga-3k:

Quote

If the price is right, a MiniITX sized Amiga would appeal to me, even if it were just and only OCS/ECS Amiga (Minimig). A littlebit more advanced (Jens' Clone-A MiniITX) would appeal more to me. I can surely do with some space-saving on my desk :-)


Why is is that everyone *THINKS* that Herr Schoenfeldt's A500 implementation is more advanced than MiniMig when this is absolutely not true? I have this itching feeling that Herr Schoenfeldt is the type of salesman that would be able to sell you sand in the dessert. He is great at presenting his products, I must admit.




@Hans:

Quote

Actually, Dennis' approach has been to replicate the A500 in a behavioural sense based on reference manuals, software emulator code and observing behaviour of the actual hardware. AFAIK he didn't specifically divide it up into the different chips. Hence, it's not guaranteed that you could replace say the A500 Agnus with a Minimig Agnus equivalent. He didn't have to ensure that the timing of all signals connected to/from Agnus matched the timing of the original chip. The Minimig may be cycle-correct in its overall behaviour, but this doesn't mean that the internal signals have the same timing as the original A500. You'd have to reverse-engineer the signal timings for the individual chip and modify the design to take this into account.



Hans,

It doesn't matter to me how certain you think you are about how Dennis went about cloning the A500 and creating MiniMig. What does actually really matter to me is that you have your facts all mixed up. Dennis has in fact been cloning the A500 chip-by-chip. If you do not believe me, please feel free to read the 850+ posts in the "Amiga in an FPGA: MiniMig" forum topic OR  even contact Dennis on the subject.

As for the accuracy of the actual signal timings; I agree that MiniMig's synthesized A500 chip set might be a little off compared to the real thing. This is no big deal in the sense that it is something that can be fixed in a real short window of time. Although I my self have not done any in-depth FPGA programming as of yet, I am certain that it is something that even I could FIX in a matter of hours with a timing diagram of the original A500 handy.

Oh, why is it that the signal timing has to be absolutely correct again? Aside from the bugs, MiniMig runs everything A500, doesn't it? It is a true A500 clone after all! Did I actually hear you say "drop-in chip replacements"? Have you any idea what something like that would cost if production is not on an impressive scale? Wouldn't you rather spend your money on a reasonably priced modern implementation of the A500 than on a relatively expensive chip in the hope that none of the other chips need replacing? I know I would.


Quote

Minimig works, although he's not done with bug-fixing yet.


Jens Schoenfeldt isn't even done with his chip set yet and he has three programmers and a logic analyzer. Ha-Ha. Besides, I am sure that once he too has quite some bugfixing to do. What a joy.



jen-ss (Sander)
 

Offline redrumloa

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Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2006, 01:00:36 AM »
Quote
Why is is that everyone *THINKS* that Herr Schoenfeldt's A500 implementation is more advanced than MiniMig when this is absolutely not true? I have this itching feeling that Herr Schoenfeldt is the type of salesman that would be able to sell you sand in the dessert. He is great at presenting his products, I must admit.


Excuse me but did you register specifically to bash Jens?
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline beller

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2006, 02:01:33 AM »
I agree with you, Argo!  I was thinking how nice it was that AmiWest was here in Sacramento, my home town.  

I'll do what I can to post and send up some pics, and of course, there is a webcast.

Bob
 

Offline Damion

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2006, 03:01:06 AM »
Quote

Quote:

    Why is is that everyone *THINKS* that Herr Schoenfeldt's A500 implementation is more advanced than MiniMig when this is absolutely not true? I have this itching feeling that Herr Schoenfeldt is the type of salesman that would be able to sell you sand in the dessert. He is great at presenting his products, I must admit.



Excuse me but did you register specifically to bash Jens?



Agreed, red... cause that's just W-H-A-C-K.
 

Offline jen-ss

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2006, 03:18:22 AM »
@redlumloa

Quote
Excuse me but did you register specifically to bash Jens?


No, not intentionally no. Well, not unless 'salesman' is a dirty word? I am a reasonable judge of character and have had the great pleasure of meeting Herr Schoenfeldt in person in Maarssen not too long ago, although I am sure that he can't place me because of some other vested interests he might of had at the time. I can assure you that I am not telling tales whenever I use the term "salesman" in conjunction with his name.

The reason that I initially signed up was curiosity on what really is supposed to set apart the Clone-A from the MiniMig (my opinion is that they are different implementations of the same thing, one free one and one with a commercial aim) and the fact that I felt dissatisfied because of the lack of recognition the MiniMig project is receiving after Clone-A was announced publicly, which in my opinion is partially due to the fact that Jens Schoenfeldt has an iconic image in the modern amiga community. I do not think that this is something that you could disagree with me on, or am I wrong to say that?

I must admit that my judgement in the Clone-A vs MiniMig matter could very well be biased due to the fact that Dennis is about to make the best gesture possible; donating hundreds of man hours worth of work on something of great value to the community. I do hope that that is not the case though.

I hope to have validated my registration.

regards,

jen-ss (Sander)
 

Offline recidivist

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2006, 03:53:32 AM »
I regularly find great but dated books that cost $29.95  new for 50cents at library or other book sales.And new paperback editions of old classics for $1 or $2.EVERYTHING produced commercially sells for a high price when new then falls in value.Only when most have been lost to accident,worn out or used up do the few examples remaining increase in price,and then only to a small percentage of the people.
 Amiga games are absolutely WORTHLESS to 99% of computer users ,much less the world.

 If someone has the licenses to put a 1000 games on a $49 Amiga Retro Joystick I say it is a good thing because it gets those Amiga games into the hands and minds of people who would never see them otherwise.And if  certain people discover how to hack the joystick and use it like a real Amiga all the better. But I doubt the Amiga  Retro Gamer Joystick will have any serial,parallel,hard-drive or any other capability.

 The company making the joystick could also utilize the technology to make a fully compatible
PCI card such as was once promised.

 The maiden that remains absolutely pure and untouched to the end of her days won't be fondly remembered by her non-existent children!
 

Offline redrumloa

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Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2006, 04:39:34 AM »
@jen-ss

No need to validate your registration to me, I'm not the webmaster. I'm simply questioning because of your constant play on his name. Which if I'm not mistaken, you've possibly even done in your nick. Though I hope I am wrong in my assumption. His name is Jens Shoenfeld, not Herr Schoenfeldt.

Anyhow I think you are off base by believing many people are losing interest in the MiniMig. There is room for a commercial and a free project. I think more people will appreciate both. I certainly do. This community needs something ,ANYTHING new to use that isn't some non-working overpriced reference with a boing sticker slapped on it.
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline cv643d

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2006, 10:20:21 AM »
2 is better than 1...
Amiga articles
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Offline pixie

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2006, 10:52:06 AM »
Quote
Sorry, are you aware that Total Amiga Magazine is a NON profit Magazine? No one gets paid, or gets a bonus or gift. It is put together by dedicated Amiga Enthusiasts.

You happen to know that even non profit organizations advertise? ;-)


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline swift240

Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2006, 03:23:45 PM »
I am all for it.
What a brilliant piece of work.


 :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)
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