Two New Mainboard with MPC7448 Soon?

[bhoggett]

I'm afraid I can't imagine spending that sort of money for hardware with those specificications even in my wildest dreams, and I'm sure I'm not alone - though the premise that there is a section of the Amiga crowd who will buy anything put in front of them regardless of price and quality has a ring of truth about it.

I can see a few dozen boards being sold, followed by the company providing them going bust and any warranties being voided, leaving a whole bunch of suckers doggedly refusing to accept they made a mistake yet again.

It's actually sad to see the same policies, same mistakes, same promises, same folly and the same pattern repeating ad infinitum. I see that on AWN more and more people are questioning the wisdom of this approach, which shows that you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. Sooner or later you get found out.

[reflect]

Yeah, a few dozens sold... maybe even a hundred. And ofcourse, warranties won't be honoured, cause..   yeah, cause.. ehm.. some other company didn't honour the warranties. And, it's so much money (cause that's already been established.. ) that just about only the suckers wants to get a new motherboard capable of running the Amiga OS..

Nice of you to condemn the efforts of others, without knowing any real, hard facts. Nice of you to condemn others, who just want a computer with an OS they love. Sorry, but..  Who are you, to condemn them, btw?

[Lando]

Nobody is condemning anyone.  People just aren't impressed with this board, is all.

only the suckers wants to get a new motherboard capable of running the Amiga OS..

Motherboards and computers capable of running OS4 are available (Pegasos, PPC Mac) and are running OS4 right now (albeit behind closed doors, since it's a violation of the EULA which I do not condone, just as the people running OS X on their A1's or Pegs are violating Apple's EULA).

You mean allowed to run OS4 which is different from capable.  Nobody has said that this board has a license for OS4, or that it will ever have a license, or that Troika has the 20k to pay Hyperion for the port if it does.

I'm sorry if you feel upset, but nobody here is attacking OS4, just the ridiculous situation that is has come to be in.

[Legerdemain]

Nobody is condemning anyone. People just aren't impressed with this board, is all.

Not true, there have been some condemnations in this thread, actually.

Motherboards and computers capable of running OS4 are available (Pegasos, PPC Mac) and are running OS4 right now (albeit behind closed doors, since it's a violation of the EULA which I do not condone, just as the people running OS X on their A1's or Pegs are violating Apple's EULA).

You mean allowed to run OS4 which is different from capable. Nobody has said that this board has a license for OS4, or that it will ever have a license, or that Troika has the 20k to pay Hyperion for the port if it does.

When it comes to what is allowed, and what is not, this is actually a matter of where you live. I'm 99.9% percent sure that if you live in Sweden you are allowed to, heh, can't find a nice way of putting this so that it sounds sensible... but... you are allowed to 'legally violate', for example, Apple's EULA. We have something called "private usage" which in this particular case would mean that if you want to run MacOSX on your A1 at home you are perfectly free to legally do so... just like you don't have to obey Nintendo's EULA claiming you are not allowed to make backups of their game cartridges/discs... you are actually even free to, if you feel like it, hack your copy of OS4 to make it run on your Pegasos. If running a company, letting your hired people run MacOSX on the computers owned by the company would of course be illegal, still. And you can of course not make a copy of OS4 and share it with a friend, which would be piracy.

For how long this 'private usage' will remain untouched here in Sweden, is probably just a matter of time. But, I think Swedes are pretty happy about the way things are now and I do not think that, especially after the Pirate Bay razzia fiasco, the government is particularly keen on changing the law concerning 'private usage', even if EU would want them to do so; it would just be adding fuel to the fire raging amongst the population at the moment.

[SHADES]

@ Matt H

The problem is we're still locked in to specific components - none of these boards ship with Amiga drivers, so we need Amiga developers to write them for us. And when the manufacturers phase out and replace their cards with new designs, well, there goes the argument that PCI hardware is cheap and plentiful. Amiga drivers don't exist for the new card - I still need the old one. And I can't go to my local PC megastore and get an SIL680 card - I still need to get it from an Amiga dealer. Look at how much trouble people have had finding a Radeon compatible with OS4. Mounting essential items onboard eliminates these problems.

Why would an Amiga HW developer 3rd party or otherwise, release hardware for AMIGA OS without a driver for it? I don't see your point here. My Z3 fastlane wasn't made by commodore and it came with it's own driver. It won't make a difference if a new mainboard gets produced with a new ATI on board that's not compatible Vs a new ATI graphics card put in to the PC. The good thing about the expandable PC is u can always put your compatible card back in till the new driver is released.

Don't get me wrong, I love slots, it's just that I'd rather be filling them with fun things like MPEG decoders and TV tuners, rather than essential system components like IDE and USB.

And with an expandable system, you could do that.
Better than 1 or 2 slots and having to compromise on what's going in to them.

[Matt_H]

@ SHADES

I think you misunderstood my argument a bit. I'll try to be a little less convoluted:

1. Dozens, if not hundreds, of different IDE PCI cards exist. Dozens, if not hundreds, of different USB PCI cards exist. Dozens, if not hundreds, of different Firewire PCI cards exist. Etc.

2. With the limited resources of the Amiga developer community, we'll see Amiga drivers for one, maybe two, IDE or USB or Firewire cards, tops.

3. The manufacturers of those cards don't give a damn about the Amiga.

4. The manufacturers of those cards stop producing them in favor of new ones - for which the Amiga driver is incompatible. This has already happened with PCMCIA Ethernet cards.

5. Thus we're back to tracking down old, compatible parts on eBay and paying far more than they're worth.

But, by putting all those things on the motherboard, the Amiga hardware manufacturer would have to be insane not to ship drivers for them. The user only has to buy one item - the motherboard (er, and hard disk) - to have a ready-to-go system.

My Z3 fastlane wasn't made by commodore and it came with it's own driver.

Right, but it was designed from the beginning to be an Amiga product. PCI cards aren't. See points 3 and 4.

It won't make a difference if a new mainboard gets produced with a new ATI on board that's not compatible Vs a new ATI graphics card put in to the PC.

If the ATI circuitry is to be integrated to the Amiga motherboard, the manufacturer sure as hell better make it compatible! Look at the A1 (controversy aside): drivers exist for all its onboard components. Look at the Pegasos: drivers exist for all its onboard components. But with all the subtle variation between AGP Radeon cards, Amiga developers have had a really hard time making everyone's card work 100% properly.

The good thing about the expandable PC is u can always put your compatible card back in till the new driver is released.

In the case of this hypothetical Amiga, IF you already have a compatible card. IF a new driver is ever released. See points 5 and 2.

And with an expandable system, you could do that.
Better than 1 or 2 slots and having to compromise on what's going in to them.

Yes! Right! See, I think we actually do really agree here. I'm saying that a board should have essential components integrated AND have around 4 slots. That way, developers can focus their efforts on producing drivers for fun expansion cards rather than trying to support all the different IDE/USB/Firewire cards that people might end up buying.

[SHADES]

@ Matt_H

No, I understood, I just didn't agree with everything u said.

1. Dozens, if not hundreds, of different IDE PCI cards exist. Dozens, if not hundreds, of different USB PCI cards exist. Dozens, if not hundreds, of different Firewire PCI cards exist. Etc.

Great! bring it on. If a hardware manufacturer sticks to the design standard for IDE (not hard) and releases a card for AMIGA, they will release a driver along with the hardware. I don't care if it's a phase 5 IDE or a commodore IDE card or ATI, or VIA or whatever, in fact I think it's a great idea. Every company can compete to make a better AMIGA IDE card, with it's own driver. If you're talking about supporting existing IBM-clone/PC hardware, that's a totaly different story, but it wouldn't be developed for AMIGA then or by an AMIGA - HARDWARE company would it.
Who says u have to buy a PC graphics card. Someone  may make Picasso07-3d that is AGP complient or PCI-X form factor. Nothing to do with ATI. Or perhaps NewTec make a toaster to plug in to pci-X. They provide their own drivers. If your expecting the new AMIGA OS to support ALL PC complient harware with drivers from get go, you better chuk in the towel now.
Just because something is on a main board doesn't mean u don't need drivers for them. I'd rather buy a card from the company who sold me the mainboard so I know it's for AMIGA OS and so I can have say SCSI instead of the IDE card. Perhaps their card will have both? What I was talking about was choice. Choose your platform. Don't pay for stuff u dont want or will use. Plus this way I'm suporting the AMIGA hardware development, not ATI or VIA or ITE who are all less than interested in AMIGA platform and OS

2. With the limited resources of the Amiga developer community, we'll see Amiga drivers for one, maybe two, IDE or USB or Firewire cards, tops.

So? will those cards be somehow inferior because they are from AMIGA H/W manufacturers? perhaps those cards will have USB/FIREWIRE/Paralell/Serial/PS2 all on one card?

3. The manufacturers of those cards don't give a damn about the Amiga.

Oh, but a motherboard manufacturer does?

4. The manufacturers of those cards stop producing them in favor of new ones - for which the Amiga driver is incompatible. This has already happened with PCMCIA Ethernet cards.

Good!. Progress.
I'll have a USB3 card thanks. And it will be just as compatible because the manufacturer will be designing the card for AMIGA OS and provide the driver with the hardware or they wouldn't make the card.

In the case of this hypothetical Amiga, IF you already have a compatible card. IF a new driver is ever released. See points 5 and 2.

Why is this hypothetical, I was just re-iterating what u previosly were saying. You were complaining that nothing over a certain series with ATI was working. So plug in a card that does work. If it was soldered to the mainboard, you be stuffed.

Yes! Right! See, I think we actually do really agree here. I'm saying that a board should have essential components integrated AND have around 4 slots. That way, developers can focus their efforts on producing drivers for fun expansion cards rather than trying to support all the different IDE/USB/Firewire cards that people might end up buying.

My point is that by offereing add-on cards as another avenu for development wil encourage further hardware to be made for AMIGA by AMIGA hardware companies and allow those companies to compete for better and better designs. It was never about trying to support all PC hardware, that's not possible. Those companies don't develop for AMIGA, they develop for Windows and are not interested in a small community. At least this way, you support the AMIGa hardware manufactures and make it attractive for other h/w companies to make stuff for this platform. Weather it's IDE, SCSI, RAID, Graphics, Wireless or HD-TV, there would now exist an oppertunity to create a h/w soultion and end user device to suit anyone. Just plug in what you require and support further development on the AMIGA h/w scene. Catweazel 6?

[Matt_H]

@ SHADES

I think we're getting closer to understanding each other :-)

If you're talking about supporting existing IBM-clone/PC hardware, that's a totaly different story, but it wouldn't be developed for AMIGA then or by an AMIGA - HARDWARE company would it.

Yes, it would be great if we could have different manufacturers producing competing IDE cards for the Amiga, but our market's far too small. Plus no Amiga hardware gurus are going to develop their own IDE boards when so many exist already.

Who says u have to buy a PC graphics card. Someone may make Picasso07-3d that is AGP complient or PCI-X form factor. Nothing to do with ATI. Or perhaps NewTec make a toaster to plug in to pci-X. They provide their own drivers.

That'd be totally cool, but not economically or competitively viable. ATI, nVidia, etc. literally have armies of researchers and engineers at their disposal. An Amiga developer couldn't possibly match their collective capabilites.

So? will those cards be somehow inferior because they are from AMIGA H/W manufacturers? perhaps those cards will have USB/FIREWIRE/Paralell/Serial/PS2 all on one card?

No, they're not inferior, they just don't exist. If an Amiga developer were to produce such a board, it'd cost just as much as an expensive Zorro board because of the low production volume. The point of PCI is that it's a universally accepted, cross-platform standard. If Amiga hardware people are going to be building their own PCI cards (unique products like the Catweasel excepted), we might as well just go back to ZorroIII.

Oh, but a motherboard manufacturer does?

If they're intending to sell that board as an Amiga they should!

I'll have a USB3 card thanks. And it will be just as compatible because the manufacturer will be designing the card for AMIGA OS and provide the driver with the hardware or they wouldn't make the card.

In this case, it'd be cheaper for a developer to write a driver for an existing card.

So plug in a card that does work.

Got to find one first.

If it was soldered to the mainboard, you be stuffed.

No, because the motherboard would have been sold with drivers.

My point is that by offereing add-on cards as another avenu for development wil encourage further hardware to be made for AMIGA by AMIGA hardware companies and allow those companies to compete for better and better designs

And my point is that the pool of Amiga developers is stretched far too thin - if we don't have the resources to write drivers, how can anyone be expected to design and manufacture redudant PCI hardware from scratch?

[Matt_H]

Amendment to the above: The short, short version

We can't possibly support all PCI hardware, so that which can be supported should be integrated into a new motherboard to preemptively solve eventual supply shortages. This applies to critical system elements only: IDE/SATA, USB, basic sound. This frees up developers from the task of writing drivers for basic operation and allows them to work on interesting peripherals and expansions.

[Savan]

Yes but that could end up being a cheap board to the end users, which in Amigaland anything which is not underpowered and overpriced is a no-no. Fast & cheap hardware and the amiga do not mix.

[Legerdemain]

Actually I kind of agree with both MattH and Savan.

Yes, Savan, I also find a rather strange opinion often obvious within the community against running the OS on rather 'ordinary' hardware. When discussion have been held concerning OS4 and X86 the argument 'too much hardware to support' have often been raised... but in theory nothing would be different from what it is like now with using a Mediatorsolution or simply using the Amiga One; they both have PCI-slots and only certain PCI-hardware is supported. Just because more hardware becomes available to use doesn't mean that the OS HAVE to support them all.

But, MattH, yes, the chance of the PCI-cards stopped being produced leaving the users to have to search all over the place to find the appropriate PCI-cards (and sometimes pay rather much money to get hold of them) is not to be denied.

Personally I would prefer to have a rather ordinary motherboard to run OS4 on, with only certain PCI-cards supported, because that would lower the price of the boards and probably also raise the sales of the boards which, according to me, would only be of good for future productionruns and overall sales of the hardware.

I have yet not bothered about the AmigaOne for one reason only; I can't motivate myself to pay that much money! When the motherboards arrived they were expensive. Now when they are no longer produced they are even MORE expensive to get hold of second-hand. Chances are, if too expensive, that if a new motherboard gets released with a likewise high price tag, the sales will be low and the company behind the board will not gain enough money from the project to make another production run and/or develop a new board. And I am honestly not willing to take the risk of buying expensive hardware when I don't see that the hardware in itself has a future, or future support from the company behind the hardware.

Why, as a company please a few, and take a really big risk with expensive hardware, instead of pleasing many with cheaper hardware? I can't see the logic of this. Really.

In whatever case, I wish Troika the best of luck. I think it is honorable that someone dares to produce new Amiga motherboards, no matter how I personally feel concerning the actual motherboard in itself. It will probably not please me, especially if the price tag is too high, but some people will most certainly be pleased and, no pun intended, I'm glad for their sake.

[redrumloa]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. In the real world Troika has to compete but in the Amiga world they can charge what the hell they want (to a limit).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Price is not relevant:

http://tinyurl.com/fmks9

 

Some things never change  :roflmao:

[boing]

Now might be a good time to reflect on how we got here.  First there was the myth about custom chip design (Jeff Schindler privately admitted the real issue: they lost the needed schemas and were ill-equipped to start from scratch). Once we were forced to create a more generic form of the OS, we ended up dilluting our efforts.

Then there was the questionable Jim Collas Linux diversion. Nice idea if he could promise Amiga compatibility too. Ted @ Gatesway didn't want any of it.

But most of all, how can we forget Bill and Fleecy?

Or should I say, "forgive"?

 What have they accomplished in these past years?  Do we even know who is actually running Amiga Inc now?  Is it just a web site and the guys actually "work" in a basement?  Nobody knows, since they actively avoid the limelight. Anybody checked the whois info for amiga.com lately?  Bill and Fleecy have been a mistake, and I'm still amazed that anybody bought into any of the things they said.  They would have to pull a real Amiga out of their hats to get back in the good graces of the community they rely on by way of a stranglehold on the Amiga's OS.  It reminds me a bit of patent trolls.

[bhoggett]

redrumloa wrote:
Some things never change

Ain't that the truth.

[Troika]

@ humppa
>>Now I can perfectly understand why Troika only showed us a small part of the board in their announcement! <<<

No, our motherboard is under NDA and we can't say much more about it.  Best to re-read our progress report.

These pics were released by Tarbos for his own reasons.

[SHADES]

@ matt_h

Yes, it would be great if we could have different manufacturers producing competing IDE cards for the Amiga, but our market's far too small. Plus no Amiga hardware gurus are going to develop their own IDE boards when so many exist already.

Who's saying match that? No reason to not use it though, you are with your soldered on board chip, why is that harder to support on a card. Manufacture costs for the mainboard are down if it's not included and traced on to the maotherboard, those readly availible chips from Nvidia, ATi available to purchase on their own, not solderd to mainboards and cheap 3rd party cards as well. The driver has to be written either way for the chipset, why not! besides, Catweazel was produced for AMIGA, there's a new clock card, IDE cards what was it, fast IDE or something else. It just creates oppertunities for producing h/w for a platform. It can attract de4velopment even though there is not much at the moment.

. ATI, nVidia, etc. literally have armies of researchers and engineers at their disposal. An Amiga developer couldn't possibly match their collective capabilites

Why not? NewTec do. Besides ATI and NVidia sell their chips to 3rd party manufactures. Why not use some of the existing chips and design a AGA/nvidia PCI graphics card, I dunno. OR make a driver company. A company tht writes drivers for cards depending on a pool of funds. There's so much I can think of to do for the platform once it arrives. Or like I said above, use an exisitng cheap 3rd party card! The driver has to be written for the rotten chip regardless if it's pasted to a mainboard or on to a card and if it's offered for a particular system, it will be INCLUDED or there would be no point. The point is, you can plug in other cards from other manufacturers that may see a niche or need for something else and that my friend is an oppertunity which is not restricted by on board devices that can't change.

If they're intending to sell that board as an Amiga they should!

And the same for a h/w Card and it's driver

Got to find one first.

Another reason to develop an AMIGA card, even if using existing ATi chips or whatever.
If you want to get it all now, there's a list of supported h/w from Hyperion.

No, because the motherboard would have been sold with drivers.

So would an AMIGA made or supported h/w card! Why does it HAVE to be on the mainboard! Drivers have to be written regardless! lol
What you think they are going to design a 3d chip to solder to the mainboard? if they are going to write the driver anyway, why not put it on a card! Makes the mainboard less expensive to design and produce, and the driver is coming anyway ... I don't get your point. ATI or IDE or whatever on motherboard is the same chip to be used on a card instead.

And my point is that the pool of Amiga developers is stretched far too thin - if we don't have the resources to write drivers, how can anyone be expected to design and manufacture redudant PCI hardware from scratch?

That's so not true. If anything at all it opens up the door for other h/w manufacturing to take place. Writing a driver for a mainboard is just as easy to wite for an add-on card and if they want to supply a mainboad with the card to do IDE, they would also provide a driver. That's the end of it. It would make no sense otherwise and weather they make their own IDE card or write a driver for someone eles's, they will be writing the driver regardless. So you see my point now?