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AuthorTopic: Mai Excited about Validation!  (Read 5286 times)

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Offline Kay

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2003, 07:08:11 PM »
> For istance the glorified "Amiga Award 2002 for bplan GmbH" announcements. While in fact 1)
> Genesi was the main sponsor for this Award 2) Polls for ARC visitors show that the
> AmigaOS/AmigaOne solutions were still by far the most preferred solution in comparison. This
> was backed up by various people who asked aroundl, including Petra.

Actually, if what you are insinuating is true, I hope you WILL write an article. It's this award you are talking about, right? I voted in that one, in good faith. If it was rigged, I would like to know. (Until I see some proof, I will assume it wasn't, though)

Kay
 

Offline System

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2003, 07:14:02 PM »
@ MarkTime

Quote
You act as if a press release is news and cannot be questioned.


Of course it can, i.e within forums. But if you combine news items with personal opinions it should be clear to be an opinion article and not pure facts or official data.

At OSNews we add an "Our take:" to such news items. Feature articles are totally different from news items of course. Within feature articles (including editorials, reviews, etc) it is very normal to present personal opinions. Sadly many people here, don't seem to know the difference between feature articles and news items.

For example, some people even attack feature articles for including opinions! Yes I know, this does sound very ackward, but you only have to search for some past responses to articles by the various people posting here!  :-o
 

Offline System

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2003, 07:38:15 PM »
@ Andre Siegel

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You are, of course, wrong on all accounts.


Welcome Andre, the more Genesi personal posting here the better.  ;-)

Quote
They were also the main sponsor of the official "Amiga Award."


So you ackowledge that Genesi was a main sponsor for this award. Thanks, point one confirmed. BTW a nice throphy you guys got, looks like the most expensive one yet.  ;-)

Quote
So whatever was said by visitors of the show, it did not matter with regard to the Amiga Award.


IMO the opinions of show visitors do matter, as they have seen your product in action. This regards to point two, a majority of the visitors preferred an AmigaOne-XE, this despite Bill claims about bugs at this event and despite seeing Genesi's product in action.

This is what I meant with - "glorified "Amiga Award 2002 for bplan GmbH" announcements." - The general opinion did not change in your favour despite seeing and test driving your product, and so the fact that Genesi won this award was not that big of a deal. As people could not yet vote for the AmigaOne-XE, your main competitor within the Amiga market.

Now compare this to what is being said with regard to IBM's validation within this article. Get the point people?  :-)

@ Kay

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If it was rigged


I don't have any reliable insider knowledge with regard to this and so I did not state such a thing. Personally I did not vote, but if I would have voted I would have voted for the Pegasos/bPlan (as the AmigaOne-XE/AmigaOS4 are a products for 2003, not 2002)!

Just like with this article questioning the value of the IBM validation, I was giving an example how one could easily do the same with regard to the company the writer so vividly supports.
 

Offline Andre.Siegel

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2003, 08:13:49 PM »
@ Mr. B


I wrote: "They were also the main sponsor of the official "Amiga Award."

Quote
So you ackowledge that Genesi was a main sponsor for this award. Thanks, point one confirmed.


"They" obviously referred to the previous sentence which said "the Amiga Award was initiated by Falke Media (publisher of German AmigaPlus magazine." I fail to see how anybody in his right mind could misinterpret my words in the same way as you just did. Enough said.


Quote
The general opinion did not change in your favour despite seeing and test driving your product, and so the fact that Genesi won this award was not that big of a deal



Again, while many people might prefer an AmigaOne because it will be capable of running AmigaOS4.0 out of the box whenever this gets released, this does not mean that these people think that the AmigaOne product would be the better hardware solution. Everyone should be able to understand this.


Quote
As people could not yet vote for the AmigaOne-XE, your main competitor within the Amiga market.


This is irrelevant. The Amiga Award was given to the company who produced the most innovative Amiga-related product in 2002. So, even if the AmigaOne-XE had been out for sale back in December, chances are high that bPlan would have won anyway. Many Amiga users know that MAI  is the driving force behind the Teron/AmigaOne boards and the actual producer of the hardware, whereas Eyetech are "just" distributors.


Your reasoning is flawed.
André
 

Offline MarkTime

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #79 on: February 25, 2003, 08:47:11 PM »
Quote
Just like with this article questioning the value of the IBM validation, I was giving an example how one could easily do the same with regard to the company the writer so vividly supports


Yes, well there isn't an article you could ever write, that I couldn't question.  Point me to one, I'll question it, I promise.

The fact that some people can question it, doesn't mean a thing.  If the Genesi awards were rigged, that should be news just as this is news.  If on the other hand, the Genesi awards were not rigged, that cannot be news because it isn't true.

What the journalist has to do, is research, and decide whats true.

Again, it goes back to saying 'thats just their opinon!' (about what the facts are)....

but that is what all journalists, everywhere, have to do, decide what the facts are....

your criticism here would be so much more valid, if you were actually taking a poke at targhams facts, instead of just playing word games and stating...thats his opinion of the facts!  Its not fair cause its opinion! whatever..

GRRRRRRRRRR this is sooooo tiring.

btw, 'our take' sounds good, but also I must say, that passing on a press release immediately, and having a researched story some weeks later is fine...both can be done ethically......

not every story is ready the same day as a press release.  And I think we are delving into the area of semantics, big time.

your main objection appear to be whether the story was labeled clearly.  I don't think its op-ed at all.  But in any event, press releases, op-ed, stories, rants....that isn't how anything is labeled on this site...it is labeled by subject areas and not by those types of classifications.

And finally, don't insult the reader...they know that a statement like 'Genesi is BAD' is an opinionated type of statement.  That 'Genesi rigged an award', is a statement purportedly about fact that must be proven.

People are plenty intelligent and will survive if there isn't a banner above the item explaining all its details before they read it.
 

Offline System

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2003, 09:06:57 PM »
@ Andre Siegel

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fail to see how anybody in his right mind could misinterpret my words in the same way as you just did. Enough said.


So now you are implying that Genesi was NOT a main sponsor? Simply be clear, was Genesi a main contributer to the Amiga Award 2002 or not?

Quote
Again, while many people might prefer an AmigaOne because it will be capable of running AmigaOS4.0 out of the box whenever this gets released, this does not mean that these people think that the AmigaOne product would be the better hardware solution


The German post-ARC polls did include an AmigaOS4/Pegasos option. The AmigaOne/AmigaOS4 was still far more popular, although you are right that an AmigaOS4/Pegasos was alot more popular as compared to a MorphOS/Pegasos combination.

Quote
The Amiga Award was given to the company who produced the most innovative Amiga-related product in 2002.


Exactly my point, people could not vote for their preferred product.

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Many Amiga users know that MAI is the driving force behind the Teron/AmigaOne boards and the actual producer of the hardwar


Yes, I am very happy such a competent and well respected company is backing the Amiga community. I see no reason why Mai could not win an Amiga Award 2003 within the Amiga hardware category.

Quote
Your reasoning is flawed.


You simply don't get my point. This was an example in reply to this article. I wasn't trying to say that Genesi was doing anything illegal or bad, just like Targhan did not want to do this with regard to Mai.

It's good that Genesi employees can try to counter my statements. This is exactly why I stated that IMO for this article to be well researched he should have approached the involved parties.

@ MarkTime

Quote
but that is what all journalists, everywhere, have to do, decide what the facts are....


No a good journalist simply reports the news and tries to keep his personal opinions to himself as much as possible (There is always bias though, as the journalist must select the data he is going to report). Or alternatively he writes a feature article, while it is always very obvious people are dealing with an opinion piece.

This article was presented as "Hardware news: Mai Excited about Validation!". With regard to this article it is very misleading and not at all correct behaviour towards Mai. Instead this article could have read: Editorial: "Why is Mai Excited about IBM Validation?"
 

Offline MarkTime

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2003, 10:03:59 PM »
@MikeB

***********************************
PRESS RELEASE
For immediate Delivery

WORLD ENDS TOMORROW
**********************************

MikeB, this is very important news that all your readers need to know about.  Since you are incapable of discerning what the facts are, please
report it immediately to your readership.

I stand by my statement that reporters must discern the facts are, before they can report them as fact.  I hope you will stand by your statement that a reporter simply reports the facts without forming an opinion about whether or not they are indeed true or not.

Because, we have finally gotten down to why all the fancy smanshy talk, is in fact, a red herring.  Its just  word games designed to bismirch someone because they reported a news story that was not favorable to you.  I am sure you know all these nonsense arguments by heart  because you've heard them all before.

p.s.

As I stated before the types of categories are 'Hardware', 'Software','Genesi', 'Amiga' etc...and not classifications like 'Editorial', 'News', 'PR' etc....

will everyone please scroll to the top and see if MikeB's statement about the article being titled 'Hardware News' is correct, of it is in fact just says 'Hardware'

Yes, MikeB, readers are smart, and they can easily discern what is opinion and what is statement of fact....for example, when someone says a contest is rigged they are making a statement about fact, and if it can't be proven, then it may be that the person is 'lieing'
 :-D
 

Offline System

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2003, 10:31:10 PM »
@ MarkTime

Childish, OSNews is about computing, not about the believes of your sect.

And I hate to burst your bubble, reporting does not per se have to be truth preaching. For instance President Bush may say: "Irak has nuclear capabilities!", Sadam Hussein may "Untrue, they just want to seize our oil!", the weapon inspectors may claim: "Iraq has no nuclear program".

As a journalist, you report this news without adding opinions, like "Bush is the new Hitler!" or "The weapon inspectors are incompetent", etc. But that does not mean the content of what is being stated is true or false, it doesn't imply the journalist is unbiased neither. Maybe he only reports on the statements made by Bush, or emphasizes the statements made by Sadam.

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As I stated before the types of categories are 'Hardware', 'Software','Genesi', 'Amiga' etc...and not classifications like 'Editorial', 'News', 'PR' etc....


That does not change the fact that you can easily tag it as an editorial. Category: Hardware or whatever Title:"Editorial: Targhan on Mai/IBM validation".

Quote
of it is in fact just says 'Hardware'


Read above, it was posted as news. Just hit the news logo, located at the upper right corner of this webpage and see if you can find Arghan's opinion piece.

I just hope the webmasters have learned from the things I have written, and finally see the mistake they have made with regard to the way this opinion piece was presented to the public.  :-(
 

Offline Hammer

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2003, 11:14:34 PM »
Quote

@hammer
Did you ever though that you have just received standard reply to all inquries concerning their partners and that person most likely have not even seen these Mai products in real life?

That would be your claim.

Quote

Go, ask, I'll wait.

I have not made any personal claims. But you have, thus it's your call to provide the proofs.
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Offline Kay

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2003, 11:16:05 PM »
I have to agree that the title is misleading. When I saw it, I expected it to be a new press-release from Mai. Imagine my disappointment when I found out what it really was. That's not to say it isn't worth reading (although I myself stopped halfway through), but MikeB is right that it should have been marked as an editorial. It is not news in the way I understand the word.

Kay
 

Offline redrumloa

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Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2003, 11:17:32 PM »
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I just hope the webmasters have learned from the things I have written, and finally see the mistake they have made with regard to the way this opinion piece was presented to the public.


Why don't you do some research on how IBM rigorously tested MAI's chips, also interview IBM top brass and get official statements on how they feel MAI's chips are worthy of validation. when you finish do the same for several other companies certification/validation. Then you should come back and write a news article dispelling the belief that validations like IBM's are marketing hype. Until then please lay off full frontal attacks on people like Targhan. I mean really, I remember defending you after a similar type article you wrote on OS-News even considering your information was based on hearsay and opinion, not research. You are the same Mike right?

@All

Please consider this. Like the message or not, this is true editorial news. If you always(in the so called Amiga spirit) attack the messenger because you do not like the message, you will never get quality news.

For this in particular myself and many others already knew the truth behind 'validation' type marketing hype and this was just another well written article on the matter. To others, they truly cannot see the forrest for the trees. All they see is a perception that someone is bad mouthing Eyetech, which is not the case.
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline System

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2003, 11:31:08 PM »
Quote
You must have misread something. Clearly Targhan has his own agenda to write this rant, however Amiga.org decided to post it as a news item.
There's no agenda here.  It's a good read.  Note that Targhan is a Webmaster here.
 

Offline System

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2003, 11:44:19 PM »
Quote
Its a puff piece, no more and no less. I wonder if it would be news?
Yes.  It would.  

Whether or not you like it, or are simply upset because it doesn't support your agenda (MikeB), it is valid.  It is factual. It is well researched and it is about 10,000 times more effort than the average Amiga.org member goes through to support this site.

@Everyone bitching about this article's placement as news.

Don't like it?  Shut up or put up.  Simple concept.
 

Offline System

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2003, 11:49:42 PM »
Quote
IMO this isn't a well researched and balanced opinion article. Simply because the parties involved were not asked for any input, reaction or clarification.
Oh My Ever-loving God!  

I am absolutely certain I did *not* just see Mike "master of the editorial news item " Bouma, spout the quoted text above.  Hey Mike... remember about 2 months ago when everyone was asking you the SAME thing about your "articles"?
 

Offline cdfr

Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2003, 01:00:22 AM »
Isn't it funny to see how the most biased "journalist" in the Amiga community can jump on anything doing bad publicity to his beloved "family" ?

I have read many times the people praising MAI because they have this IBM validation.
As a lot of readers I thought, well another PR tactic.
Shocked ? No, the computer industry is using these PR stunts every day.
You make a product that make use of IBM chips so you can apply and get a validation. It makes your publicity and IBM one and everyone is happy.

Bouma said that Genesi lied, that the April was FUD and so on, now he implies that they have cheated at the Amiga awards. Just more lies.

If MAI has no problem with the articia why are they not shipping in volume right now ?
Maybe Terrasoft and Eyetech want to wait until the board are obsolete ...  or maybe Genesi was right and they are right to dump MAI for their business projects ;-)