Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: jj on April 07, 2011, 12:56:20 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12997245
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Cusa website seems to be down at the time of posting, no suprise given all the media attention it's getting at the moment.
They should use this downtime to give it an overhaul ...
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Yippie, a PC in a C64 case. Why does anyone care about such a $600 gimmick? I don't get it.
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Because it's retro! People have great childhood memories of the C64 and this is a great tribute to this; A modern usable machine with retro styling.
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Because it's retro! People have great childhood memories of the C64 and this is a great tribute to this; A modern usable machine with retro styling.
Yes & in the future people will pay money to reminisce about how they used to bitch and moan about things that were pointless on the internet.
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The should sell it on those home shopping channels and put it on 4 easy pays.
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Yes & in the future people will pay money to reminisce about how they used to bitch and moan about things that were pointless on the internet.
Hahahaha! That would be brilliantly twisted. The medium for experiencing the nostalgia would most likely be different from the medium being discussed, like Moobunny: The Film. ; )
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With all this attention CUSA is getting shouldn't AROS/ICAROS/X1000 ETC post some news? Certainly people will be searching for what happened to Amiga.
Instead they may find this site and see all the bickering and sour grapes and be turned off to these projects.... just my 2 cents.
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Yippie, a PC in a C64 case. Why does anyone care about such a $600 gimmick? I don't get it.
You don't get it because CUSA is involved in something completely unfamiliar to the modern Amiga enthusiast: marketing.
With all this attention CUSA is getting shouldn't AROS/ICAROS/X1000 ETC post some news?
They do post news. That doesn't do anything to promote AROS, MOS, OS4, etc. though. Like I said, marketing is an alien concept today in the world of Amiga.
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You don't get it because CUSA is involved in something completely unfamiliar to the modern Amiga enthusiast: marketing.
absolutely. i only discovered the modern world after seeing a video from @danwood and reading a review over at OSnews. i know that hyperion and the MOS development teams seem wholly focused on people already 'in the know,' but you'd be surprised how many hobbyists out there are interested in stuff like this. not just ex-amigans, but people who used ataris, people who want something, well, different.
and, no, none of our modern amiga solutions can effectively compete on a price/performance basis with consumer-grade x86/x64 kit, but then again, the CUSA products are more expensive than their competitors as well.
with most social media now online and, for the most part, free, i don't see why hyperion, the MOS development team, AROS enthusiasts, et al, don't start some marketing activities. the X1000 got rather a lot of press, and that was just because of a few emails. imagine how much more so with dedicated marketing. even if it only attracts a few hundred new users (rather than the untold masses that will know about CUSA), that's still a healthy increase in numbers.
-- eliyahu
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You know with all this media attention that they are getting, it would seem to me that the journalists and media companies who publish this stuff don't know the true story yet... ;)
It's would be such a pity to spoil this wee party by sending these journalists and media outlets some of Barrys own posts that he's made and the ones that Leo made over the past months about this community and real Amiga & enthusiasts and maybe even point out to these media outlets about a certain company stealing other for artworks & IP to use on their own site and point them in the right direction... ;)
Hmmm... wonder who would have spent all morning doing such a thing as that... :roflmao:
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i don't see why hyperion, the MOS development team, AROS enthusiasts, et al, don't start some marketing activities.
Lack of management. If you don't care for that term, call it lack of leadership. Either way.
#6
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Hmmm... I don't think it would be you Franko.... :-)
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Lack of management. If you don't care for that term, call it lack of leadership. Either way.
i'm not so sure. at least on the hyperion side, i think it's more an assumption that the broader hobbyist world wouldn't be interested. at amiwest this was one of the things i asked ben hermans, and i really think they are 'selling themselves short' a little. what makes the 'modern' amiga platform(s) so interesting is that they are 'retro' and 'modern' all at the same time. they work rather differently than mainstream personal computing platforms, and that very difference is what appeals to a few of us. that and we can actually do something with them.
i'm also surprised the MOS guys haven't been frequenting mac fora, given that people with older mac kit might be interested in something kewl to replace OSX eventually.
but in the end, i'm just a user and enthusiast. it's up to the principals to determine the best direction for their products, not me; and if they prefer this approach, so be it. i just really think they might be overlooking a potential market.
-- eliyahu
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someone has wwwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyy too much free time on their hands.
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i'm not so sure. at least on the hyperion side, i think it's more an assumption that the broader hobbyist world wouldn't be interested. at amiwest this was one of the things i asked ben hermans, and i really think they are 'selling themselves short' a little. what makes the 'modern' amiga platform(s) so interesting is that they are 'retro' and 'modern' all at the same time. they work rather differently than mainstream personal computing platforms, and that very difference is what appeals to a few of us. that and we can actually do something with them.
i'm also surprised the MOS guys haven't been frequenting mac fora, given that people with older mac kit might be interested in something kewl to replace OSX eventually.
but in the end, i'm just a user and enthusiast. it's up to the principals to determine the best direction for their products, not me; and if they prefer this approach, so be it. i just really think they might be overlooking a potential market.
-- eliyahu
I respect your opinion and always will.
I still stand by my own on this one.
#6
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When was the AROS site last updated??? To anyone just doing a quick search for Commodore/Amiga related content AROS may look like an abandoned/dormant project.
At least ICAROS was updated fairly recently.
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I respect your opinion and always will.
I still stand by my own on this one.
fair enough. i've also only been around here about a year now and know little about anything 'amiga' prior to 2009.
there's probably something i'm missing. :)
-- eliyahu
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fair enough. i've also only been around here about a year now and know little about anything 'amiga' prior to 2009.
there's probably something i'm missing. :)
-- eliyahu
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=629376&postcount=31
I don't know how to say it more clearly. As far as I am concerned it applies to everyone, not just C=USA.
#6
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fair enough. i've also only been around here about a year now and know little about anything 'amiga' prior to 2009.
there's probably something i'm missing. :)
-- eliyahu
Since you mention Ben Hermans, here are a couple of links to help you begin your research.
http://www.favrin.net/txt/varie/commenti/goodbye_os4.en.html
http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/
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@Jorkany
i know you're not a huge fan of hyperion or the chaps that work there, to say the least. and i understand there's a huge amount of history here. but having met him in person, and using his product, i rather like the guy. i can appreciate there are others who do not.
let's not derail this thread any more than we've already done. :lol:
-- eliyahu
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How weird, Commodore 64 was number 1 in the trending box on Yahoo! The link led to a Wired article.
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Yippie, a PC in a C64 case. Why does anyone care about such a $600 gimmick? I don't get it.
This is going to be a hit for the same reason the "X1000" will be a flop, like flip sides of the same coin.
Commodore started at the right end; they designed a product that has a real consumer appeal, that answers to real needs&wants of real customers. They asked themselves: "what kind of Commodore (and soon Amiga) product could people actually be interested in buying?" And then they made a product based on that conclusion.
"A-eon" started at the very opposite end; they started with a product. They said "We are going to build a product with certain tech specs that we ourselves think is cool and important. It must have a PPC. It must have a, hmm... 'creative' implementation of an xmos chip. Etc, etc. And then people will probably buy it." And in the future when/if they have finished their product, they will have to try to find some kind of need in some kind of market somewhere that can buy whatever they made.
The first mentioned is market oriented; they start with a market need and design products to match that.
The last mentioned is product oriented; they start with a product and hope to find a market (Somewhere! Anywhere! Hello? Anyone there?) for it when they are done.
The first one has a chance of success. The last one has not.
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Lack of management. If you don't care for that term, call it lack of leadership. Either way.
Management aside - what do any of them *really* have to offer to the general public worth "marketing"? I'd say "not much"!
It's a hobby for enthusiasts. Nothing for the broad consumer markets.
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Management aside - what do any of them *really* have to offer to the general public worth "marketing"? I'd say "not much"!
It's a hobby for enthusiasts. Nothing for the broad consumer markets.
Based on what they say both in public and private, I can not disagree with you there.
#6
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Management aside - what do any of them *really* have to offer to the general public worth "marketing"? I'd say "not much"!
It's a hobby for enthusiasts. Nothing for the broad consumer markets.
i would agree that, for the general public, none of the 'amiga' platforms today are terribly competitive. for computing enthusiasts, on the other hand, they have rather a lot to offer. i mean, that's why i'm here. :)
barry hit on something big and i'm genuinely thrilled for him and leo. it's not something we're all especially interested in, but that's because we're not the target. but don't sell the hobbyist market short. there's a bunch of us out there, and OS4 and MOS have something to offer. well, at least in my opinion they do.
-- eliyahu
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it's not something we're all especially interested in, but that's because we're not the target.
Think dartboard, assuming the design is still the same today as in the past. There are outer rings and inner rings and double score areas and...
#6
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... and here's the LA Times Technology article:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/04/commodore-64-is-back-with-hdmi-out-intel-atom-chip-blu-ray.html
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... and here's the LA Times Technology article:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/04/commodore-64-is-back-with-hdmi-out-intel-atom-chip-blu-ray.html
The new Commodore 64 went on sale on the company's website for the first time Tuesday and sold out within about 24 hours, though Altman isn't saying just how many have been produced to date.
Uh, no.
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"We expected our audience to be the nostalgia crowd and that's true, a lot of people buying them owned an original Commodore 64 back in the '80s, like me," he said. "But we're also finding that there are young kids who are geek geniuses who have iPhones and iPads and things like that and they're looking at this thing and they're into it. They've actually been a big part of our customer base so far too. It's been a surprise."
Is there some sort of elaborate questionnaire you need to fill out at check out time on CUSA's website that I don't know about, because I don't see how you can determine this just from someone's name, address, and credit card info.
CUSA Customer Survey:
Age?
Do you own an iPad/iPhone?
Are you a geek genius?
Are you into it?
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The first one has a chance of success. The last one has not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUTqfWzdhpk
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Pretty neat link off that page too, the Xi3 Modular Computer...
(http://xi3.org/images/7919.jpg)
http://xi3.org/pcu5000.php (http://xi3.org/pcu5000.php)
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Pretty neat link off that page too, the Xi3 Modular Computer...
(http://xi3.org/images/7919.jpg)
http://xi3.org/pcu5000.php
That is very cool.
I like this one.
(http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/56-502-004-TS?$S300W$)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856502004
However, its more expensive then a C64x and it doesn't come with memory, a hard drive, or a keyboard.
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Pretty neat link off that page too, the Xi3 Modular Computer...
http://xi3.org/pcu5000.php (http://xi3.org/pcu5000.php)
"What is X?"
Now we know!
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With all this attention CUSA is getting shouldn't AROS/ICAROS/X1000 ETC post some news? Certainly people will be searching for what happened to Amiga.
Instead they may find this site and see all the bickering and sour grapes and be turned off to these projects.... just my 2 cents.
+1
Come on people, post some news about AROS, MorphOS, OS4, Classic etc! A rising tide lifts all boats!
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Twitter is going crazy over this new C64. Viva la revolution. Commodore is back :)
From the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2011/apr/07/commodore-64-returns
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I hate to add to this, 'cause I also think it's kind of a pointless tragedy.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/04/07/commodore-64-computer-lives-vintage/?test=faces
A friend sent me that link, since he knows I'm an Amiga fan. Although I never was a C64 fan, I thought they were piles of crap :D Atari 8-Bit fan here.
Then again, the spiritual ancestor of the Amiga was the Atari 8-Bit anyhow...
slaapliedje
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I hate to add to this, 'cause I also think it's kind of a pointless tragedy.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/04/07/commodore-64-computer-lives-vintage/?test=faces
A friend sent me that link, since he knows I'm an Amiga fan. Although I never was a C64 fan, I thought they were piles of crap :D Atari 8-Bit fan here.
Then again, the spiritual ancestor of the Amiga was the Atari 8-Bit anyhow...
slaapliedje
Actually, the spiritual ancestor of the Amiga was an obscure $15,000 Xerox computer.
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Nothing succeeds like success:
The new Commodore 64 went on sale on the company's website for the first time Tuesday and sold out within about 24 hours, though Altman isn't saying just how many have been produced to date.
"We're having a hard-time keeping our online store up, because the servers are getting overloaded from the amount of traffic," Altman said. "That's been a bit of a surprise, too."
With HDMI outputs, new users will be hooking up their C64's to their TV's just like the old days (except they are now LCD/LED's instead of CRT's). This is so "Back to the Future".
Commodore and Amiga have been linked at the hip since the beginning. Without Commodore resources, the Amiga would probably have never seen the light of day.
If they have such success with the Commodore line, I can't wait to see what happens with their Amiga line.
Putting things in perspective, the first Amiga I bought was an A1000 in 1986. It cost me $1295.00. I also bought the 256KB RAM expansion module, external 3.5" floppy and and 1080 color monitor which brought the total to close to $2000.00. And I got TextCraft, DeluxePaint and Seven Cities of Gold (don't remember what I paid for them).
Whether these machines can really capture the essence of the old Commodore/Amiga computers remains to be seen. But they've already done something that all the others since 1994 have failed to do. Create a sense of excitement.
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Although I never was a C64 fan, I thought they were piles of crap :D Atari 8-Bit fan here.
Then again, the spiritual ancestor of the Amiga was the Atari 8-Bit anyhow...
Hey, HEy, HEY!!! Them are fightin words:hammer:
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Nothing succeeds like success:
The new Commodore 64 went on sale on the company's website for the first time Tuesday and sold out within about 24 hours, though Altman isn't saying just how many have been produced to date.
None have been produced to date.
The C64x was only available as a pre-order. How do you sell out a pre-order?
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Removed double post.
Though Jay Miner was originally from Atari, Atari did not have the resources Commodore had to successfully launch the Amiga. Commodore produced their own chips so they had better control of costs. And they had a great revenue stream from their C64 line, to tie them over until the Amiga line became profitable. Besides, the Commodore Amiga sounds better than the Atari Amiga.
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Without Commodore resources, the Amiga would probably have never seen the light of day.
Without Commodore, the Amiga would have been an Atari.
And that's an annoyingly long double post - BTW.
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Whether these machines can really capture the essence of the old Commodore/Amiga computers remains to be seen. But they've already done something that all the others since 1994 have failed to do. Create a sense of excitement.
I hate to bang a drum here, but ... you can find out right now.
Load up UAE and Vice on your PC. Does it feel like an amiga/C64 now?
Hooray. You've captured the essence of the old commodore machines.
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I hate to add to this, 'cause I also think it's kind of a pointless tragedy.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/04/07/commodore-64-computer-lives-vintage/?test=faces
A friend sent me that link, since he knows I'm an Amiga fan. Although I never was a C64 fan, I thought they were piles of crap :D Atari 8-Bit fan here.
Then again, the spiritual ancestor of the Amiga was the Atari 8-Bit anyhow...
slaapliedje
BBC, LA Times, Guardian, Fox...
Wow, some great media coverage there!
And that tells us, in black on white, how much all those grumpy "but who's gonna be interested in this when it's just a PC in a custom case" kind of comments was worth, hehe! :p ;)
:)
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BBC, LA Times, Guardian, Fox...
Wow, some great media coverage there!
And that tells us, in black on white, how much all those grumpy "but who's gonna be interested in this when it's just a PC in a custom case" kind of comments was worth, hehe! :p ;)
:)
I'll see you a news story and raise you the comments of pretty much every single person who's seen the price and specs ;)
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Yippie, a PC in a C64 case. Why does anyone care about such a $600 gimmick? I don't get it.
Because it's retro! People have great childhood memories of the C64 and this is a great tribute to this; A modern usable machine with retro styling.
This is not retro. Retro is having a working C64. Having a lame Atom-based PC in a C64 case just sucks.
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They're also planning Amiga models:
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_Amiga.aspx
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_Amiga2000.aspx
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_Amiga3000.aspx
And some more: http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_FutureModels.aspx
Today's "Macs" are just PCs in an Apple branded box. But no one moans about that. Yes it's unlikely to be of interest to people using the later generations of Amigas, but that doesn't mean other people won't be interested. And surely anything that keeps the brand alive, and stops the Amiga being forgotten to history, is a good thing?
Plus here's the thing: if Commodore hadn't gone bust, today's Amigas would likely have little in common the classic Amigas. Whilst even AmigaOS 4 is a derivative of the classic Amiga 3.x, like Apple, they may well have switched OS completely (I'm sure in the late days of Commodore, they talked about Windows NT Amigas running on HP Risc machines). Post AGA chipsets would have broken compatibility. And again like Apple, they may well have eventually switched to x86. The reality is that these "PCs in a custom case" are probably far closer to what we'd have had if Commodore had never gone bust, than these various derivatives of the classic Amiga that we've instead got.
Also of interest is that the Commodore 64 version will have emulation as standard. If they do this for their Amiga models, that will be cool. Yes, you can run WinUAE yourself, but having it plugged in as standard would be a good thing for bringing it to a wider audience (and makes it even closer to a "true" Amiga than if Commodore have ever gone bust - I doubt their HP Risc Windows NT Amigas would have had emulation for backwards compatibility). People seemed to love Amithlon - no one care that that was running on just a PC.
One thing I'm curious of though - do they actually have the rights to the "Amiga"? I've lost track of what the latest in Amiga ownership has, but I presumed Amiga the company were still around - have they licensed the name? (In which case good for them.) Or have the new Commodore mistakenly thought that since they own the rights to Commodore, they also have the rights to the Amiga name? (In which case, I fear that a great idea will end up dying in a crappy legal battle. Again.)
ETA: http://www.twice.com/article/466478-Rejuvenated_Commodore_64_Back_On_Sale.php claims they bought rights to the name.
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Today's "Macs" are just PCs in an Apple branded box. But no one moans about that.
Well, plenty of people moan about that. But those people aside, most people are happy with that because what you pay for is superior build quality coupled with the "total package" of getting an OS that is reasonably well thought out, as well as a lifestyle brand (it's no different than people picking clothes brands etc.)
I have a cheap Acer laptop with pretty much the same specs as my wife's Macbook. It cost 1/3 of the Mac. But it's easy to see why (though perhaps not the *whole* price difference): It's lighter, it doesn't creak and give if you lift it by one edge. It's got all kinds of little touches like a backlit keyboard. Its keyboard isn't falling to pieces after a few months, the battery still holds the charge far better, and so on. If you want "just a PC" without the Apple brand of similar quality, you do actually end up paying pretty much the same as for the Macbook, and there aren't many alternatives around. Attention to detail places Apple product pretty close to the top in terms of PC manufacturers if you are to rank by quality.
If these guys were to product Commodore or Amiga products that were "just a PC" of similar kind of build quality and design, and with a similarly polished OS experience, then a lot fewer people would complain (though some still would, no matter what, as long as there's an x86 in there and it doesn't run AmigaOS or a variation)
Personally I'm not too bothered. If they come up with a sufficiently stylish box with an Amiga logo on it, and it's not too outrageously priced, then perhaps I'll buy one for my next Linux or AROS box. But I'm also under no illusion that these boxes live up to the Amiga legacy.
(The name Commodore brand, on the other hand, I have much fewer qualms about - after all Commodore did sell a lot of mediocre PC's and a lot of people only remember them for that)
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Yes indeed - it's still possible to sell just a "PC in a case" by adding value to them and differentiating them; as this company are doing.
I have a cheap Acer laptop with pretty much the same specs as my wife's Macbook. It cost 1/3 of the Mac. But it's easy to see why (though perhaps not the *whole* price difference): It's lighter, it doesn't creak and give if you lift it by one edge. It's got all kinds of little touches like a backlit keyboard. Its keyboard isn't falling to pieces after a few months, the battery still holds the charge far better, and so on. If you want "just a PC" without the Apple brand of similar quality, you do actually end up paying pretty much the same as for the Macbook, and there aren't many alternatives around. Attention to detail places Apple product pretty close to the top in terms of PC manufacturers if you are to rank by quality.
Yes this is the thing, you get what you pay for. Apple PCs are still PCs - there are other higher end brands such as Sony and Dell laptops too, so there's still nothing special about them. Sounds like you got a very crappy Acer though, I've not had those kinds of issues with any non-Apple PCs I've had. Different models have different areas where they are better - my Samsung N220 is cheap, as light as an Apple laptop, and smaller, with decent keyboard, and longer battery life. Of course it has lower specs - PCs (including Apple) are just built using the same kind of components, no one manufacturer can magically make their PCs better or cheaper without sacrificing something.
No one dismisses these as PCs; PC hardware is what most people want these days, and why these new Amigas - whether we like it or not - have better chance of sales then the various continuations of the classic Amiga technology.
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Yes this is the thing, you get what you pay for. Apple PCs are still PCs - there are other higher end brands such as Sony and Dell laptops too, so there's still nothing special about them. Sounds like you got a very crappy Acer though,
Yes, I did - I intentionally chose pretty much the cheapest model available with those specs on the assumption that I'll be upgrading it much more regularly without ever shelling out a huge amount, while my wife just wanted something where she didn't have to ever worry about the quality. It's a tradeoff.
No one dismisses these as PCs; PC hardware is what most people want these days, and why these new Amigas - whether we like it or not - have better chance of sales then the various continuations of the classic Amiga technology.
... and that is another reason why a lot of people dislike this. It will means that pretty soon a sizable chunk of people will associate Amiga with PC's - quite possibly far more than have any significant memories of the real thing.
I'm ambivalent about it - not sure it matters all that much as long as they don't overrun our forums, and perhaps some few ones will get curious and look at the real thing. But it's still a bit sad.
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Well, plenty of people moan about that. But those people aside, most people are happy with that because what you pay for is superior build quality coupled with the "total package" of getting an OS that is reasonably well thought out, as well as a lifestyle brand (it's no different than people picking clothes brands etc.)
I have a cheap Acer laptop with pretty much the same specs as my wife's Macbook. It cost 1/3 of the Mac. But it's easy to see why (though perhaps not the *whole* price difference): It's lighter, it doesn't creak and give if you lift it by one edge. It's got all kinds of little touches like a backlit keyboard. Its keyboard isn't falling to pieces after a few months, the battery still holds the charge far better, and so on. If you want "just a PC" without the Apple brand of similar quality, you do actually end up paying pretty much the same as for the Macbook, and there aren't many alternatives around. Attention to detail places Apple product pretty close to the top in terms of PC manufacturers if you are to rank by quality.
Amen.
It's all those small things indeed, such as:
- enough grunt to actually be usable, unlike those crappy sub-notebooks with win7 basic. eow...
- backlit keyboard even in the 13" model
- environment adaptive backlighting
- cooling system that doesn't melt the laptop if you place the system on a soft surface
- magnetic power connector that prevents disasters (has saved 2 different macbook pros for me already)
- aluminum body that actually can take a beating.
No other "normal" laptop would have survived the beating this one received: busted_macbook_pro.jpg (http://sintonen.fi/pics/busted_macbook_pro.jpg) (here's the same machine after some rework: mended_macbook_pro.jpg (http://sintonen.fi/pics/mended_macbook_pro.jpg)). The machine was involved in a blading accident and the guy carrying it fared worse than the laptop...
Try the same with some plasticy ACER or DELL and you end up with backbag full of laptop components. This system on the other hand works great (only dvdrw-drive ceased to function). I use it as a backup / party laptop.
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This is not retro. Retro is having a working C64. Having a lame Atom-based PC in a C64 case just sucks.
i guess this isn't retro either
(http://www.hardocp.com/images/news/13007395386Sr1SYHO2F_1_1_l.jpg)
but dang it is cool
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cooling system that doesn't melt the laptop if you place the system on a soft surface
That's a key thing there. Show me any laptop from any other manufacturer, high end or otherwise, that doesn't have air vents on the bottom. I mean, it's crazy. The amount of Dell XPSs I've seen with busted motherboards because of overheating, and some of them cost more than a Macbook. Granted, they're known to have GPU cooling problems, but even so - you pay €1,300 for a laptop, you expect it to not require a motherboard replacement every year or so until the extended warranty runs out.
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That's a key thing there. Show me any laptop from any other manufacturer, high end or otherwise, that doesn't have air vents on the bottom. I mean, it's crazy.
But, but, it gives you that nice smell of bacon when you put it on your lap...
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But, but, it gives you that nice smell of bacon when you put it on your lap...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/11/22/man_burns_penis_with_laptop/
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That's a key thing there. Show me any laptop from any other manufacturer, high end or otherwise, that doesn't have air vents on the bottom. I mean, it's crazy. The amount of Dell XPSs I've seen with busted motherboards because of overheating, and some of them cost more than a Macbook. Granted, they're known to have GPU cooling problems, but even so - you pay €1,300 for a laptop, you expect it to not require a motherboard replacement every year or so until the extended warranty runs out.
The Dell XPS 17" model and Inspiron 9400 is notorious for the GPU overheating anyway. 90% of faulty machines are due to blown GPU due to heat stress.
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I think we've pretty much done this to death. Clearly the C64 box buys a lot of free publicity and it's almost exclusively good publicity. There's nothing wrong with that. Yes, it's not retro, and the primary customer is not retro, but so what? The world doesn't revolve around retro fans. Take your typical boomer, odds are they had a C64 in the past. They may want to relive that past without really reliving that past, they want a modernised version of that past. This gives them that. I am really dreading the day a few certain people in my office actually hear about this because they will be talking about it for weeks. Most won't care, but there are those who will and they will behave a bit like other fanboiz.
Initially Barry made a mistake, he thought that retro enthusiasts would be the market, so he came to us and of course we reacted and he learned that we are not the market. But that doesn't mean there isn't a market. Nor does it mean we have any say in that market. It's time to move on, let Barry fail or succeed without moaning about it.
The same with his Amigas, they will succeed or fail based on what consumers believe about them and it has nothing to do with us. Once again we are not the market. But the PC market is huge and names come and go. It wouldn't surprise me if they failed but it also wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. And you know what? It makes absolutely zero difference to us if they succeed or fail. Zero, Zip, Nada. We still have our classic machines, we still have the projects, natami, aros, etc. Let's move on.
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Clearly the C64 box buys a lot of free publicity
I agree with most of your post, but the kind of publicity we're seeing is definitely not free.
I'd say some other companies could take a lesson here, but it's far too late.
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Today's "Macs" are just PCs in an Apple branded box. But no one moans about that.
Actually if you look around the mac community there's a vocal minority who do complain about just that. They ascribe some kind of mystical magical spiritual significance to the old PPC chips. They speak of how not being "just a PC" somehow made the mac experience better. My mother-in-law rushed out to buy a Powermac just so she wouldn't have an intel mac - "Because of all the problems PCs have." (yes, this was her reason)
They're stupid reasons, they're meaningless, made-up reasons...but they're reasons none-the-less.
It's kind of like the arbitrary lines drawn by some raving Amiga fanatics: how a COTS PPC motherboard made by a dying-now-dead Taiwanese company was somehow magically an Amiga, but Amithlon or WinUAE which are unarguably more capable of running Amiga software weren't Amigas.
Frankly I hope CUSA provides - either through UAE/WinUAE or some other means - a method of seamlessly running Amiga apps on the new Amiga-branded hardware they sell. Not because I give a fig (software wise, there's nothing on the Amiga of any use to me except the occasional game), but just so it can be demonstrated who actually sells an Amiga.
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Amen.
It's all those small things indeed, such as:
- enough grunt to actually be usable, unlike those crappy sub-notebooks with win7 basic. eow...
- backlit keyboard even in the 13" model
- environment adaptive backlighting
- cooling system that doesn't melt the laptop if you place the system on a soft surface
- magnetic power connector that prevents disasters (has saved 2 different macbook pros for me already)
- aluminum body that actually can take a beating.
No other "normal" laptop would have survived the beating this one received: busted_macbook_pro.jpg (http://sintonen.fi/pics/busted_macbook_pro.jpg) (here's the same machine after some rework: mended_macbook_pro.jpg (http://sintonen.fi/pics/mended_macbook_pro.jpg)). The machine was involved in a blading accident and the guy carrying it fared worse than the laptop...
Try the same with some plasticy ACER or DELL and you end up with backbag full of laptop components. This system on the other hand works great (only dvdrw-drive ceased to function). I use it as a backup / party laptop.
And yet just last night I rebuilt an ancient IBM Thinkpad that'd taken a tumble to a concrete floor, losing only the corner (and subsequently support for the display hinges) and refurbed it to working in about 30 minutes.
I've rebuilt and tinkered with all computers. Nobody has the market on reliability. Nobody. Statistics are not your friend. MBTF for soldering joints is MBTF for soldering joints. Percentages of DOA RAM or hard drives that die two weeks out is just the same. Steve Jobs doesn't flit out of his chemotherapy tent and sprinkle magic pixie dust on each and every Apple product to protect it from any and all harm. Indeed I'd wager the exact opposite is probable. Apple users tend to be real religious fanatics about their gear, and where a PC user would toss a commodity laptop or netbook, or cell phone or mp3 player, the Cult of Apple takes it back time and time and time again. Apple repairs them accordingly (in large part so they can hang on to their customer base). Net result is guy with a busted up mac who takes it back a few times will tell you "Oh my god, this thing has taken such punishment!" and the PC user? He's replaced it because he has no religious affiliation with his computer equipment. The Jobsian Reality Distortion Field is carried in part by its users.
Then there's stuff like this (http://applequalitycomplaints.blogspot.com/) and in general, this (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=apple+poor+quality&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c875dd2b8adea15a).
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MBTF for soldering joints is MBTF for soldering joints.
Solder joints? Consumer market crap!
Wire-wrap for MIL SPEC!
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Solder joints? Consumer market crap!
Wire-wrap for MIL SPEC!
Jorkany FTW! :D
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Nobody has the market on reliability.
Correct. It doesn't invalidate my points though.
As for Mac users being a cultists, I guess I am the exception that proves the rule. I use Macs because I genuinely considered them to be better than the alternatives. There's nothing more to it.
I also have a bunch (4 currently) of older PowerPC macs mainly because I work on MorphOS for them.
PS. I don't own iphone, ipod, ipad or other Apple nonsense products. There are better alternatives for these.
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The Dell XPS 17" model and Inspiron 9400 is notorious for the GPU overheating anyway. 90% of faulty machines are due to blown GPU due to heat stress.
Yep, even without blocking the underside vents with your legs, those machines killed themselves regularly with heat. But keeping them on your lap, or even worse, on a cushion on your lap, is a sure-fire way of killing them off...
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Frankly I hope CUSA provides - either through UAE/WinUAE or some other means - a method of seamlessly running Amiga apps on the new Amiga-branded hardware they sell. Not because I give a fig (software wise, there's nothing on the Amiga of any use to me except the occasional game), but just so it can be demonstrated who actually sells an Amiga.
Why not just buy a PC at half the price from Dell, and install UAE?
Im not actually just bitching about the price here. I am genuinely missing what possible benefit CUSA is bringing to "the brand" that isn't already available with any other PC out there
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You keep asking athe same question, and keep getting valid responses. What part of the many responses don't you understand? Is it the part that people like the case? Is it the part that hacking cases is not what MOST people want to do? Is it the part where the machine is only about the case price more than the cost equivelent machines? Is it the part that given the statements made by CUSA, and what they have accomplished so far, people are interested in the software that is likely to be delivered? The list goes on.
I took the first couple of times that you asked the same question as you just not getting it. But, now you have had the question answered multiple times, and you just keep pretending like you haven't been answered.
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You keep asking athe same question, and keep getting valid responses. What part of the many responses don't you understand? Is it the part that people like the case? Is it the part that hacking cases is not what MOST people want to do? Is it the part where the machine is only about the case price more than the cost equivelent machines? Is it the part that given the statements made by CUSA, and what they have accomplished so far, people are interested in the software that is likely to be delivered? The list goes on.
I took the first couple of times that you asked the same question as you just not getting it. But, now you have had the question answered multiple times, and you just keep pretending like you haven't been answered.
So the answer to what CUSA brings to the amiga brand is a C64 case, and the promise of a linux distribution?
You are right. I don't get it. Maybe Im getting dumber as Im getting older.
You can believe me or dismiss you at your leisure, but the reason I keep asking is that I am genuinely puzzled. All these years.. all the infighting and arguing and all the different projects, and this is what we were waiting for?
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PS. I don't own iphone, ipod, ipad or other Apple nonsense products.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA
A classic!
:)
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/11/22/man_burns_penis_with_laptop/
I really did not need to read that... Now I have sympathy pains..
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Yep, even without blocking the underside vents with your legs, those machines killed themselves regularly with heat. But keeping them on your lap, or even worse, on a cushion on your lap, is a sure-fire way of killing them off...
Coffee table :)
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So the answer to what CUSA brings to the amiga brand is a C64 case, and the promise of a linux distribution?
You are right. I don't get it. Maybe Im getting dumber as Im getting older.
You can believe me or dismiss you at your leisure, but the reason I keep asking is that I am genuinely puzzled. All these years.. all the infighting and arguing and all the different projects, and this is what we were waiting for?
No, and I don't believe that you really are that dense. I think you are putting HUGE effort into not understanding.
One thing they bring to the table is Case styling. First a very good C64 case. While their case is expensive, custom cases often are. For example: http://www.xoxide.com/pccases.html#shop-by-featured
Look at the price of the C64x case alone, and you will find that the added cost of the rest of the computer is pretty much on par with what you would find elsewhere for similar equipment. Heck, even TheDaddy's case was over a hundred dollars, and The C64x is a far more advanced case than that. The complaints about price are simply not comparing apples to apples.
Second, you are fully aware that software wise CUSA is talking about more than just a linux distro. They have been very clear that they want to start with linux as a jumping off point. Just as Apple started with BSD as a jumping off point. They are also talking about legal and pre-configured C64 and AmigaOS compatibility via emulation. You are fully aware of that, and pretending like you don't know that is simply playing dumb. You have been too involved in these conversations to have missed them, and you clearly brighter than that.
What that leaves us with is your repeated questions asking what CUSA brings to the table is simply trolling. You don't WANT to know what they bring to the table, but try as you might, you certainly do know it. It may not be for you, but putting your head in the sand isn't going to make it go away. It also won't make you stop knowing the truth.
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I like turtles
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No, and I don't believe that you really are that dense. I think you are putting HUGE effort into not understanding.
One thing they bring to the table is Case styling. First a very good C64 case. While their case is expensive, custom cases often are. For example: http://www.xoxide.com/pccases.html#shop-by-featured
Look at the price of the C64x case alone, and you will find that the added cost of the rest of the computer is pretty much on par with what you would find elsewhere for similar equipment. Heck, even TheDaddy's case was over a hundred dollars, and The C64x is a far more advanced case than that. The complaints about price are simply not comparing apples to apples.
A c64 case is entirely and completely irrelevant to the amiga.
As I've said repeatedly on this forum, once they have an "amiga" product, then we'll see, and I've even supported giving them their own forum, alongside morph, aros etc.
Second, you are fully aware that software wise CUSA is talking about more than just a linux distro. They have been very clear that they want to start with linux as a jumping off point. Just as Apple started with BSD as a jumping off point. They are also talking about legal and pre-configured C64 and AmigaOS compatibility via emulation. You are fully aware of that, and pretending like you don't know that is simply playing dumb. You have been too involved in these conversations to have missed them, and you clearly brighter than that.
Actually,when Barry answered some of my questions on this forum in the past, it seemed pretty clear that we're talking linux plus emulation.
Anything in writing, from the company, with specifics of more than linux+vice/UAE would be welcome, and actually be relevant and interesting news.
There's been tons of speculation by people not affiliated with CUSA. I'd love to see specifics, other than what was already revealed by CUSA themselves months ago. Not the rantings of Dammy on Moobunny or whatever.
If there's actual evidence that they are developing some sort of OS themselves, I'd love to see it. /that/ would actually be interesting and highly relevant.
Anyone undertaking this effort in 2011 is either loaded beyond belief with money and talent or crazy. For all we know, Barry might be both.
What that leaves us with is your repeated questions asking what CUSA brings to the table is simply trolling. You don't WANT to know what they bring to the table, but try as you might, you certainly do know it. It may not be for you, but putting your head in the sand isn't going to make it go away. It also won't make you stop knowing the truth.
The truth is what is actually available for customers to buy. Nothing more. Nothing less.
So we are basing this all on future promises then?
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When there's something other than a linux distro available let us know. There's too much vapour in this forum as it is. Apple started with a heavily modified FreeBSD and has continued to upgrade and improve it. There's a track record. Anubis resurrected as Commodore OS is still talk without substance.
I'm not interested in a computer in a keyboard, it's a silly idea in 2011, but if you come up with an interesting OS, well, that's something different.
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Have you reviewed this product, Belial6? I am curious where you are getting the "very good" information regarding quality. It may very well be top notch quality, I'm just curious if you have used these machines. The C-USA/Apple comparison is just too hysterical, not touching that with a 10 foot pole. I have asked questions repeatedly to people about this product, all went unanswered. I'd be happy to shut up if I could get some answers to questions I, and others - are asking.
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It was just, right now, on the danish national news.
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Have you reviewed this product, Belial6? I am curious where you are getting the "very good" information regarding quality. It may very well be top notch quality, I'm just curious if you have used these machines. The C-USA/Apple comparison is just too hysterical, not touching that with a 10 foot pole. I have asked questions repeatedly to people about this product, all went unanswered. I'd be happy to shut up if I could get some answers to questions I, and others - are asking.
Nobody has reviewed them. As far as I know, they haven't started producing them yet.
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Amen.
It's all those small things indeed, such as:
- enough grunt to actually be usable, unlike those crappy sub-notebooks with win7 basic. eow...
- backlit keyboard even in the 13" model
- environment adaptive backlighting
- cooling system that doesn't melt the laptop if you place the system on a soft surface
- magnetic power connector that prevents disasters (has saved 2 different macbook pros for me already)
- aluminum body that actually can take a beating.
No other "normal" laptop would have survived the beating this one received: busted_macbook_pro.jpg (http://sintonen.fi/pics/busted_macbook_pro.jpg) (here's the same machine after some rework: mended_macbook_pro.jpg (http://sintonen.fi/pics/mended_macbook_pro.jpg)). The machine was involved in a blading accident and the guy carrying it fared worse than the laptop...
Try the same with some plasticy ACER or DELL and you end up with backbag full of laptop components. This system on the other hand works great (only dvdrw-drive ceased to function). I use it as a backup / party laptop.
After looking at Powerbooks (for future use under MorphOS) I've got to admit that I am impressed with the build quality.
Even though all these are several years old, most are still in good shape and they have many of the features you mentioned (backlit keyboards, aluminum bodies).
I can't wait to see one of these in action.
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After looking at Powerbooks (for future use under MorphOS) I've got to admit that I am impressed with the build quality.
Even though all these are several years old, most are still in good shape and they have many of the features you mentioned (backlit keyboards, aluminum bodies).
I can't wait to see one of these in action.
My wife still uses an old G4 power mac as her main laptop. Sturdy little beasts. Outlived pretty much any other laptop she's had.
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A c64 case is entirely and completely irrelevant to the amiga.
As I've said repeatedly on this forum, once they have an "amiga" product, then we'll see, and I've even supported giving them their own forum, alongside morph, aros etc.
This is where your faking ignorance again. I have personally explained that you you previously. You may disagree, but you definitely understand that the C64 was Commodore's predecessor to the Amiga. CUSA is claiming that they are following the same path and are going to release Amiga's also. You may disagree with what defines "Amiga", but you definitely understand the connection. You may not want to, but you do. Continuing to claim that you are incapable of seeing anyone's point of view but your own is simply trolling.
Actually,when Barry answered some of my questions on this forum in the past, it seemed pretty clear that we're talking linux plus emulation.
Anything in writing, from the company, with specifics of more than linux+vice/UAE would be welcome, and actually be relevant and interesting news.
Yes, the method that they have been talking about in providing C64 and AmigaOS compatibility is via UAE. Emulation is the ONLY way that compatibility can be achieved. Every OS that isn't on a 68K is using emulation for compatibility with the 68k. You are aware of this. Pretending like you don't understand how this relates to Amiga is beyond silly. And you can be sure that if DELL started talking big about including AmigaOS compatibility via emulation on their systems standard from the factory, they would definitely be discussed here. You may not find a manufacturer shipping systems that can run Amiga 68k code standard interesting, but claiming that you don't understand why other people do is just trolling.
If there's actual evidence that they are developing some sort of OS themselves, I'd love to see it. /that/ would actually be interesting and highly relevant.
Anyone undertaking this effort in 2011 is either loaded beyond belief with money and talent or crazy. For all we know, Barry might be both.
They have stated their plan to use Linux as a starting point. Just as Apple used BSD as a starting point. This was explained to you in the very post you responded to. You might not agree with it as a good direction to go. You might believe they will fail, but you definitely understand why there is interest in it. Pretending like you don't is simply trolling.
The truth is what is actually available for customers to buy. Nothing more. Nothing less.
So, just like a huge number of other Amiga related topics that you understand the interest in. Again, pretending to not understand is simple trolling.
So we are basing this all on future promises then?
Partially yes, although CUSA has proven that they can do at least some things that many nay sayers have claimed they could not. So, they have started to create credibilty to their claims. Of course, you are certainly aware that credibility has never had a bearing on whether something is Amiga related or not. So, trying to claim that you don't understand the relationship between CUSA and Amiga based on that is....Yep. Trolling.
You are trying to sound "Reasonable" by claiming that you are not bitching, complaining or taking sides, and that you "I am genuinely missing what possible benefit CUSA is bringing to "the brand" that isn't already available with any other PC out there". The fact is that you are bitching and complaining. It isn't that there is something anything about CUSA that you don't understand. It's that they are not pushing your particular strain of Amiga, and you don't get why everyone else doesn't just agree with you, and you feel that playing dumb makes you look better than taking the Franko route.
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My wife still uses an old G4 power mac as her main laptop. Sturdy little beasts. Outlived pretty much any other laptop she's had.
I have one of the first Intel MacBooks. It's my beater laptop, and has seen a lot of travel miles both in cars and by bicycle. It's been dropped, sat on, and my cat likes to sleep on it at night. Still solid and works like a charm.
Meanwhile my Dell laptop that I use for work and spends 99.9% of it's time on a desk feels like it's about to crumble whenever I pick it up. I can't imagine it surviving the travels the MacBook has been through.
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@Belial6
Just as Apple started with BSD as a jumping off point.
When - exactly - Apple sold "Macintoshs" with an vanilla BSD distro, an Apple desktop backdrop and Sheepshaver for running 68k MacOS software?
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@Belial6
Just as Apple started with BSD as a jumping off point.
When - exactly - Apple sold "Macintoshs" with an vanilla BSD distro, an Apple desktop backdrop and Sheepshaver for running 68k MacOS software?
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This is where your faking ignorance again. I have personally explained that you you previously. You may disagree, but you definitely understand that the C64 was Commodore's predecessor to the Amiga. CUSA is claiming that they are following the same path and are going to release Amiga's also. You may disagree with what defines "Amiga", but you definitely understand the connection. You may not want to, but you do. Continuing to claim that you are incapable of seeing anyone's point of view but your own is simply trolling.
The C64 was designed by entirely different people, under different management and in a different era, based on different hardware.
Its only connection is that it was done by the same company. The similarities are as big as they are between windows mobile and windows 3.1.
If you feel like a C64 case is a big deal for the amiga community, then good for you.
Yes, the method that they have been talking about in providing C64 and AmigaOS compatibility is via UAE. Emulation is the ONLY way that compatibility can be achieved. Every OS that isn't on a 68K is using emulation for compatibility with the 68k. You are aware of this. Pretending like you don't understand how this relates to Amiga is beyond silly. And you can be sure that if DELL started talking big about including AmigaOS compatibility via emulation on their systems standard from the factory, they would definitely be discussed here. You may not find a manufacturer shipping systems that can run Amiga 68k code standard interesting, but claiming that you don't understand why other people do is just trolling.
The relevance to the amiga community is a bundled emulator? You genuinely feel that this is somehow going to resurrect the amiga?
That people should be excited that someone is bundling an emulator with a stock linux install ?
When people talk about how much good CUSA is doing to the brand, this is what there is to point to?
They have stated their plan to use Linux as a starting point. Just as Apple used BSD as a starting point. This was explained to you in the very post you responded to. You might not agree with it as a good direction to go. You might believe they will fail, but you definitely understand why there is interest in it. Pretending like you don't is simply trolling.
Links to concrete plans for what they are doing please? Even the "commodore OS" discussions on their own forums are painfully vague beyond "linux and emulation".
Dates? Package management? Window manager? File systems? What will be unique to this distribution? How many people are involved in this? What sort of file systems will it run on?
Not hopefull well wishing but actual stuff they have announced. As I said before, a ways back, when Barry spent some time answering questions, the responses given were very straight forward. I don't see what mis representing them on the company's behalf is doing for you, other than wishful thinking and the urge to defend a company.
Dammy is doing a pretty good job at inventing things over on moobunny. I don't think he needs the help.
So, just like a huge number of other Amiga related topics that you understand the interest in. Again, pretending to not understand is simple trolling.
Good for you. You won the internet.
Partially yes, although CUSA has proven that they can do at least some things that many nay sayers have claimed they could not. So, they have started to create credibilty to their claims. Of course, you are certainly aware that credibility has never had a bearing on whether something is Amiga related or not. So, trying to claim that you don't understand the relationship between CUSA and Amiga based on that is....Yep. Trolling.
They have proven themselves when there's an actual product in peoples hands. Care to review yours or are we still waiting for June when the 64x ships?
You are trying to sound "Reasonable" by claiming that you are not bitching, complaining or taking sides, and that you "I am genuinely missing what possible benefit CUSA is bringing to "the brand" that isn't already available with any other PC out there". The fact is that you are bitching and complaining. It isn't that there is something anything about CUSA that you don't understand. It's that they are not pushing your particular strain of Amiga, and you don't get why everyone else doesn't just agree with you, and you feel that playing dumb makes you look better than taking the Franko route.
Thats the best you could do for a personal attack? Nobody takes any pride in anything anymore.
To sum this up: My disbelief is that a bunch of people is getting fired up about all the good this is doing the amiga brand.. based on a theoretical future product with an unspecified software solution that everybody but the company says will be an amazing new system.
Oh, and a C64 case running ubuntu.
And you wonder why people don't understand it.
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@Belial6
You sound like a right smug twat.
Yep you got it..trolling.
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@Belial6
When - exactly - Apple sold "Macintoshs" with an vanilla BSD distro, an Apple desktop backdrop and Sheepshaver for running 68k MacOS software?
Commodore 64 was shipped with Microsoft Basic as it's user interface. Shipping with Microsoft Windows just follows this path.
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Commodore 64 was shipped with Microsoft Basic as it's user interface. Shipping with Microsoft Windows just follows this path.
They don't ship with windows btw.
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That's a key thing there. Show me any laptop from any other manufacturer, high end or otherwise, that doesn't have air vents on the bottom. I mean, it's crazy. The amount of Dell XPSs I've seen with busted motherboards because of overheating, and some of them cost more than a Macbook. Granted, they're known to have GPU cooling problems, but even so - you pay €1,300 for a laptop, you expect it to not require a motherboard replacement every year or so until the extended warranty runs out.
MacBook Pro has it's own issues with cooling issues. Remember, the PC industry has issues with NVIDIA Geforce 8400M(G86M)/8600M (G84M) "bump gate".
PS; I own Dell Studio XPS 1645 (Y2010) with cooler AMD Radeon HD 5730M/6570M (26 watts). The latest MacBook Pro 2011 with AMD Radeon HD 6750M (~30-35 watts) spec looks good. My Dell Studio XPS 1645 (Y2010) has backlit keyboard and metal body on the main case.
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They don't ship with windows btw.
C64 was still shipped with Microsoft's user interface solution. Microsoft Windows follows Microsoft Basic's OEM business model.
For user interface, there are plenty of 8bit micro-computers with shipped Microsoft Basic.
Microsoft's early success wasn't fluke.
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C64 was still shipped with Microsoft's user interface solution. Microsoft Windows follows Microsoft Basic's OEM business model.
For user interface, there are plenty of 8bit micro-computers with shipped Microsoft Basic.
Microsoft's early success wasn't fluke.
I think at least one of us is misunderstanding the other :)
What I meant was the 64x does not ship with windows.
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I think at least one of us is misunderstanding the other :)
What I meant was the 64x does not ship with windows.
The primary target market is likely to be Windows users with good memory of C64.
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Windows runs horribly on Atom powered PC's. I own several of them, and only use them under Linux or a stripped XP booting directly into WB via WinUAE.
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lol the editorial on PCmag.com website
You Can Keep Your Fake Commodore 64
This resurrected classic computer is nothing but a none-too-cheap imitation of the real thing.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2383266,00.asp
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Amen.
It's all those small things indeed, such as:
- enough grunt to actually be usable, unlike those crappy sub-notebooks with win7 basic. eow...
I'm using a so-called crappy sub-notebook right now, and is fine. I mean what, people once moaned that Windows was bloated, but for OS X, 1GB and a 1.6GHz processor isn't enough? :)
But what's Apple's offering in the same mobile market? An Ipad, which has even less grunt, and has an OS far more basic than Windows 7 starter.
But anyhow, the choice is not "Apple laptops versus cheap netbooks". Other companies have been producing a range of PCs - desktops and laptops - long before Apple started doing their PCs. Choice is good - why stick with just one make of PC?
Yes, some people like Apple PCs - some people like Dell, some people like Sony, some people like Samsung, others just buy what fits their particular needs best. As long as we're agreed that they're just another brand of PCs :) What I really don't get is this myth of them "not being PCs", as if this was still back in the days when we had IBM PCs, classic Macintoshes; and that somehow this makes Macs special above all PCs.
I like my Samsung N220 for its small size, long battery life, light weight, decent keyboard, and running a full OS. It has a decent sized hard disk to actually be usable (unlike the Apple Air). I like my custom-built desktop PC because it gives all the power I need, and doesn't cost loads. Apple have nothing that could come anywhere near supplying either of these needs.
- cooling system that doesn't melt the laptop if you place the system on a soft surface
Not had this problem on my netbook, it doesn't actually have fan holes on the bottom.
- magnetic power connector that prevents disasters (has saved 2 different macbook pros for me already)
Actually, this is a negative for Apple - the reason you won't see this on other laptops is because, believe it or not, they have a patent for "Magnetic connector for electronic device".
No other "normal" laptop would have survived the beating this one received: busted_macbook_pro.jpg (http://sintonen.fi/pics/busted_macbook_pro.jpg)
My cheap Advent took quite a beating. And Thinkpads are reportedly quite robust. But I'm curious why you say "normal" - so there are other laptops that do, after all?
@runequester: What's the point in any brand of PC, when you could just build your own from bits?
The answer is that although enthusiasts and geeks like us do that, most people do not. They happily pay money to have a complete all in one ready made solution. And in particular, even for those of us who are geeks, it doesn't seem trivial to make a custom Commodore 64 or Amiga case, for modern PC hardware...?
It's also not clear to me why someone needs to be writing their own OS for them to be "interesting". Let's face it - whilst Apple do right OS X, it wouldn't be off character for them to dump that technology, and use something else, yet the new machines would still be branded as "Macs", which they'd insist "aren't PCs". Consider how all of the pro-Apple PC comments here have been about the hardware, not OS X - at least one person said how he runs Windows 7 on his Apple PC.
When - exactly - Apple sold "Macintoshs" with an vanilla BSD distro, an Apple desktop backdrop and Sheepshaver for running 68k MacOS software?
See above on my comments on why is it so important to write your own custom OS. And they did use emulation to provide backwards compatibility - again, is it better to reinvent the wheel? There are plenty of other areas where Apple have moved from custom hardware to standard 3rd party hardware, in that "Macs" are now straightforward PCs. Why must the OS be custom, but not the hardware?
I'm not interested in a computer in a keyboard, it's a silly idea in 2011, but if you come up with an interesting OS, well, that's something different.
I'm not sure it's that silly - there is some market for PCs that are desktops, but don't take up much space. I've seen both "small box" PCs, as well as PCs combined with the monitor. Why not with the keyboard? That means you can choose the monitor separately, whilst still avoiding the need for a separate box.
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Apple has the Macbook Air for countering the PC netbook market, and it's a stunning piece of hardware as long as your needs do not exceed what it offers. I own one and run Win7 on it, and I love it. Comparing a netbook to an iPad is silly, completely different devices to anyone that's used either. Netbook offers far more functionality, iPad is simply an appliance running a kiosk like OS.
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Apple has the Macbook Air for countering the PC netbook market, and it's a stunning piece of hardware as long as your needs do not exceed what it offers.
It is not in any sense a "netbook". It's way more expensive, and larger (11" are referred to as ultra-portable laptops, netbooks are 10" or below).
It's in the same market as other high end ultra-portable laptops. These other high end laptops are also stunning piece of hardware. I mean, at that price, you'd hope so. I guess I don't see what's so worthy of praise - every other PC company can produce stunning PC hardware if you're willing to pay through the nose, so why not Apple, now that they're just another PC manufacturer? It's not like this is back in the days when they were competing on an entirely different hardware platform. 10 years ago, the question of whether the market might go to the Mac rather than the PC might have been quite interesting - just as we might have liked it to go to the Amiga. But these days, it's just a question of one PC maker versus another.
Having said all this, whilst we have differing views over what PCs we like, it does make the point of what I was originally trying to say: even though Apple just make PCs these days, that doesn't stop them selling them, and indeed, having people get quite enthusiastic over them. These days, people want modern PC hardware, and companies differentiate themselves in other aspects, such as design, cases, services. So I think there's certainly plenty to be said for Commodore's approach, as opposed to the approach of trying to update the original AmigaOS, and doing it on non-x86 hardware. Apple would have died long ago if they stuck with selling PowerPC Macs running a derivative of the classic MacOS.
(The biggest competition for the netbook market is probably the low end ultra-laptop market, since for only slightly more money, people can get something much more powerful, with it only being slightly larger; again Apple have nothing there.)
I own one and run Win7 on it, and I love it. Comparing a netbook to an iPad is silly, completely different devices to anyone that's used either. Netbook offers far more functionality, iPad is simply an appliance running a kiosk like OS.
Well yes, I agree it's silly in that a netbook beats an Ipad hands down. I'm just saying, if you want something smaller than 11", or a cheap mobile computer, Apple have nothing except that.
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even though Apple just make PCs these days, that doesn't stop them selling them, and indeed, having people get quite enthusiastic over them. These days, people want modern PC hardware, and companies differentiate themselves in other aspects, such as design, cases, services.
So I think there's certainly plenty to be said for Commodore's approach
Apple remains in the market because they just don't "sell pc's".. they control the whole architecture with the os and components. Apple is not in the same ballpark as Hewlette Packard or Compaq that deal in cheap hardware using other people's technology.. which CUSA falls into.
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Apple remains in the market because they just don't "sell pc's".. they control the whole architecture with the os and components. Apple is not in the same ballpark as Hewlette Packard or Compaq that deal in cheap hardware using other people's technology.. which CUSA falls into.
Sort of kind of.
The hardware Apple uses has always been commodity stuff that anyone could have used. They just pick very specific stuff to ship, and make sure the OS supports that, then don't worry about anything else out there.
In PC land, the assumption has always been that the developers make an OS (windows, linux), and the hardware guys make drivers if needed, or make documentation available to the OS can handle it.
PC manufacturers like HP and all those just put parts together and sell a package.
Incidentally, while Im not a huge apple fan, they do benefit from being able to "just work" in most cases.
In PC land, having to try and support every piece of crap out there either means
A: It runs like shit (windows)
B: Its hard as hell to set up (linux)
Nowadays, windows runs pretty well and linux is pretty easy to set up, but its taken a loooong time to get there, and a lot of compatibility was broken along the way.
As an aside, its one of those things where amiga fans will say "Why does the OS take up XXXX gigabytes of hard drive space??" and miss the point. A linux distro aimed at only running on a 68060 and nothing else wouldn't take much more space than amiga OS would. (heck, DSL takes less space than OS 3.9 anyways).
But if you want it to reasonably run on anything you put it on, its gonna bloat. Same for windows.
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Curious what sort of support is offered to people that purchase the C-USA 64 pc's when people completely foreign to Linux have issues. Even the big name makers support Linux horribly, and face it - 90% of computer users these days don't know anything but point and click, *nix command line stuff is an acquired taste. Asked that ages ago on their forums but the question was deleted, lol.
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When is this coming out???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ9IEJGJG0A