Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Linux PPC discussion => Topic started by: ddalley on April 09, 2006, 05:40:10 PM
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:idea:
With the new Linux compatible PS3 console about to be released around November, I would like to know if the Amiga OS will be made compatible with this new Open Source platform.
The hardware is more than ideal for just such a release. The cost will be relatively small; the platform itself will be like a replacement of the original Amiga "idea" and capable of anything a "normal" computer can do; it will be spread by the millions around the world; the hardware will be mostly stable for more than a decade (easy to learn to program) - a standard; and so on.
Chances are emulators, programming languages (such as REBoL) and other normal desktop software will be released for this anyway, so why not another great multitasking OS, too?
Cheers,
Donald Dalley
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This has been done to death on this forum already. The answer is no.
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moto
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I would like to know if the Amiga OS will be made compatible with this new Open Source platform.
NO :horse: :horse: :horse: :whack:
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Ah, I looked for Search above and to the left, but didn't see it on the right. My bad.
Well, after reading one thread, I'm glad to see there is plenty of interest in this idea (and a few vocal deniers).
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May I recommend starting this thread at Amigaworld.net...
:horse:
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I just had to try out this new icon for myself. It's quite fun.
:horse: :horse: :horse:
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my god !! hope this topic stops here
and i cant be anny better than the others so here we go :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse:
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I don't think Hyperion has the millions of dollars needed to become a licenced PS3 developer, the development staff / resources to do the port, or a licence to do so.
In the crazy 'Amiga' world they would actually expect Sony to pay them, and then compulsorily bundle OS4 with the console, while adding $100 onto the price.
I don't know whether the traditional sticker is obligatory but if so it may also mean Sony having to place a paper 'Amiga' sticker over the Sony logo on each PS3 sold so that people can pretend there are new Amigas.
:horse: :horse: :horse: :horse:
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The problem lies in the fact that the original Amiga "idea" and Amiga as it stands today are 2 very very different things.
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Well, after reading one thread, I'm glad to see there is plenty of interest in this idea (and a few vocal deniers).
It's quite feasible (a lot less difficult than writing an entire OS).
It'll give them access to a market 1 00 000 times bigger that their existing market.
It gives them access to cheap hardware with levels of computing power which they wont get in any other platform for several years yet.
It might actually make them some money.
The last point is the difficult one as the Amiga partners seem to be allergic to this idea. The MOS team and AROS folks are just plain uninterested or unaware of just what Cell is or can do - Cell has some major architectural advantages which wont become apparent for a few years yet.
It's debatable of they'd even need a license from Sony as they are actively encouraging bedroom coders on PS3.
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If the hardware specs are open enouph then I think a port would make sense, as long as Hyperion doesn't have to pay $$ to devolop it. The sales could pay off.
Anyway :horse: :-D
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Just download the CELL.library from Aminet and add to the LIBS directory.
Oh yeah :horse:
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Ok, i have noticed something in here and in another Amiga forum that troubles me. Why all the pointless and semi off topic threads are draws all the posts and attention while posts about a real Amiga problem does not?
Is this a sign of our times?
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Just because the PS3 will have linux does not mean that Sony will open the hardware. Sony has never released open hardware and I dont think they are about to start.
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The MOS team and AROS folks are just plain uninterested or unaware of just what Cell is or can do
Like doing OOO? Oh wait...
Dammy
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With the new Linux compatible PS3 console about to be released around November, I would like to know if the Amiga OS will be made compatible with this new Open Source platform.
If it is anything like the "Linux compatible PS2 Pack" Sony released then you might be in for a bit of a shock..
The hardware is more than ideal for just such a release. The cost will be relatively small; the platform itself will be
If someone was going to waste time and/or money on a port then they should just move it to the PC. The costs there are very small and there is a huge target audience.
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EvilGuy wrote:
If someone was going to waste time and/or money on a port then they should just move it to the PC. The costs there are very small and there is a huge target audience.
Little-endian byte ordering must die first. :-D
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Like doing OOO? Oh wait...
Exactly
OOO boosts some algorithms by 30-40%, it has no effect on others and slows others down.
Cell dropped it in favour of an architecture which can boost some algorithms by anything up to 10000%.
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The MOS team ... are just plain uninterested or unaware of just what Cell is or can do
Unaware no, uninterested yes.
Cell has some major architectural advantages which wont become apparent for a few years yet.
Uhm. The advantages are quite obvious to me at least, and no, I still think CELL won't make it to desktop anytime soon.
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*dupe*
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As I have learned, the Amiga philosophy defies all logic. I think
it is a great idea and just might actually happen, but again I am not
going to count on it becauses it just makes too much sense (porting
OS4 to PS3). What about a MorphOS port? I have not heard that asked. :-D
C Snyder
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Boy let's see the PS3 has been further delayed making the idea it will show up in limited quantity for the next holiday season a distinct possibility. Furthermore, that processor is designed for a Video Game, adapting an OS like the Amiga to it would be a considerable amount of time and work for it.
Several Questions:
A) would Sony even want it for their game machine? Seems to me something like that might cause them to loose their proprietary control of their user base. The only reason Linux hit the PS2 briefly (it was discontinued) is it was the basis for the game developers. Sony thought it was a bad idea and discontinued it.
B)Why do you think you can wrap an OS like AmigaOS around a game system and make it popular.. People buy consoles to play games. To bad the PowerPC life is ending, but the Cell really isn't in a general purpose CPU or box and it's not produced in quantity to be so. So my question is how successful do you think it could really end up being. Probably less than a dedicated custom PowerPC motherboard based machine would be.
Why not just get behind AROS. It's latest version runs great and supports network cards etc. And you can run it on generic cheaply available hardware. There is no reason not to. Aros is embracing ports to all available hardware including PowerPC so why not support something that is supported by your community.
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ddalley: I would like to know if the Amiga OS will be made compatible with this new Open Source platform.
Erm... Open Source?
Lando: I don't know whether the traditional sticker is obligatory but if so it may also mean Sony having to place a paper 'Amiga' sticker over the Sony logo on each PS3 sold so that people can pretend there are new Amigas.
What does Sony need with Amiga? If they're serious about an OS, they can make their own. Oh wait... they're just making yet another Linux distro. I guess they don't care. :roll:
minator: The last point is the difficult one as the Amiga partners seem to be allergic to this idea. The MOS team and AROS folks are just plain uninterested or unaware of just what Cell is or can do - Cell has some major architectural advantages which wont become apparent for a few years yet.
Yeah, like tons of vector power, but little scalar power. It would be similar to re-introducing math coprocessors (like what Ageia is trying to do, and will fail) or instead of making a dual-core x86 chips, you would have one puny x86 core and a lot of dedicated SSE cores. I can only imagine how Windows would handle that kind of chip without a major rewrite. :-)
It's a good idea, but the technical makeup of Cell is terribly imbalanced. Note that Sony originally thought they could use multiple Cell processors to replace the GPU. When real-world benchmarks weren't very good, they went with a more traditional layout, and the fanboy hype of distributed computing (and those idiotic schematics) pretty much died.
Nitro: Just download the CELL.library from Aminet and add to the LIBS directory.
Well, hey... there's your coprocessor. :-)
AmigaMance: Ok, i have noticed something in here and in another Amiga forum that troubles me. Why all the pointless and semi off topic threads are draws all the posts and attention while posts about a real Amiga problem does not?
Is this a sign of our times?
Good point. When both the old machines and the new "official" machines are at a dead end, people are going to talk a lot about unofficial new machines.
Personally, I'm more interested in software. But, that can't happen until people stop trying to force the idea of custom hardware. The computer world has always been trying to turn hardware into software. Why a lot of Amigans can't figure this out is beyond me.
Dammy: Like doing OOO? Oh wait...
Case in point. The instructions are the only thing I care about, because that determines what compilers and tools are available and how they are used. I don't care how the processor computes those instructions, becuase that's a hardware issue beyond the control of the developer. If it's strictly a hardware issue, it doesn't involve me, so why should I care? Just make it fast and cheap, and give me clean tools.
SamuraiCrow: Little-endian byte ordering must die first.
We'll be getting our Amiga8000 long before that happens. :-D
minator: Cell dropped it in favour of an architecture which can boost some algorithms by anything up to 10000%.
If you plan to write your own algorithms, you need to know custom VMX coding to use them, though. Older algorithms don't benefit, either, so you have to re-write a lot of stuff. Hence, the high costs.
DonnyEMU: People buy consoles to play games.
Yes. They also buy new game consoles to play new games. Backwards compatibility in the gaming arena is just a plus. Why would the typical PS3 customer be interested in Amiga?
Also, the limit to backwards compatibility is pretty much making things run at the same speed, but (sometimes) with higher resolutions, antialiasing, and the like. The compatibility modes are designed for games as well, not applications.
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Yeah, like tons of vector power, but little scalar power.
The vector processors can also do scalar processing. According to the people actually using them they are very, very fast.
It would be similar to re-introducing math coprocessors (like what Ageia is trying to do, and will fail
Er, maths co-processors were a great success, so good they integrated the functionality into every CPU available today.
Intel and especially AMD are also reintroducing the idea of co-processors, spurred on by of all things Cell (a "wake up call" according to the AMD CTO).
instead of making a dual-core x86 chips, you would have one puny x86 core and a lot of dedicated SSE cores. I can only imagine how Windows would handle that kind of chip without a major rewrite.
A bit slower of some stuff, a hell of a lot faster on computer intensive stuff.
Both Intel and AMD are talking about building exactly that sort of processor.
It's a good idea, but the technical makeup of Cell is terribly imbalanced. Note that Sony originally thought they could use multiple Cell processors to replace the GPU. When real-world benchmarks weren't very good, they went with a more traditional layout, and the fanboy hype of distributed computing (and those idiotic schematics) pretty much died.
The distributed computing idea gets a lot of interest and is still under development. As for real world benchmarks GPUs will be better at some things (e.g. texture shading) and worse at others, one Cell developer got a Cell to outperform a GPU 5 times over - and that was *without* optimising the algorithm.
If you plan to write your own algorithms, you need to know custom VMX coding to use them, though. Older algorithms don't benefit, either, so you have to re-write a lot of stuff. Hence, the high costs.
Only for performance sensitive code (around 5%). Also there is a lot of effort going into compilers so you have to do only minimal coding changes.
What you may not be aware of is the changes going multi-core will make to conventional processors, you are going to need to rewrite everything no matter what processor you are using.
What may seem like odd design decisions in Cell today will be seen as major advantages in a few years.
Build a 8-16 core CISC (or RISC) processor and you'll find the need for cache coherence (keeping caches in sync) will send cache latency through the roof and cripple existing code. look up the design of Suns's rock processor, it's a bizarre design (16 cores, shared L1s, 4 shared 512K L2s) for a very good reason.
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With the new Linux compatible PS3 console about to be released around November, I would like to know if the Amiga OS will be made compatible with this new Open Source platform.
1.
classic Amiga motherboard :
- a) system chip Motorola 68k
- b) co-op chipz of chipset
2.
classic Amiga motherboard(via Virtualization OR Emulation) on the Cell chip :
Cell chip including :
- a) system core - Power Processor Element :
The PPE is based on the POWER Architecture, which is the basis of IBM's line of POWER and PowerPC offerings. The PPE is not intended to perform all primary processing for the system, but rather to act as a controller for the other eight SPEs, which handle most of the computational workload. The PPE will work with conventional operating systems due to its similarity to other 64-bit PowerPC processors, and because the SPEs are designed for vectorized floating point code execution. The PPE contains a 16 KiB instruction and data Level 1 cache and a 512 KB Level 2 cache. Additionally, IBM has included a VMX (AltiVec) unit in the Cell PPE.
- b) co-op corez - Eight Synergistic Processing Elements (SPE)
In one typical usage scenario, the system will load the SPEs with small programs (similar to threads), chaining the SPEs together to handle each step in a complex operation. For instance, a set-top box might load programs for reading a DVD, video and audio decoding, and display, and the data would be passed off from SPE to SPE until finally ending up on the TV. Another possibility is to partition the input data set and have several SPEs performing the same kind of operation in parallel. At 3.2 GHz, each SPE gives a theoretical 25.6 GFLOPS of single precision performance. The PPE's VMX unit is fully pipelined for double precision floating point and can complete two double precision operations per clock cycle, which translates to 6.4 GFLOPS at 3.2 GHz; or eight single precision operations per clock cycle, which translates to 25.6 GFLOPS at 3.2 GHz
there is something similair ,but ...
... we can only wait OR programmning
... sleep OR working
... just talking about OR forget... ???
3.
end :
Easy way - Cell->Linux->Emulation->AmigaOS classic
Hard way? - Cell->Virtualization->AmigaOS-like Open Source OS , amigaOS compatible ?
ps:
maybe this way - Cell->Virtualization->AmigaOS 5 - Powered by Cell
can we only dreaming all the time ? or comming AmigaNA (new age) soon ? we dont know . just thinking about it ;)
ps2: sorry 4 my english . maybe i`ll write more next time .
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@ddalley
If PS3 runs Linux you will probably be able to run AROS-PPC hosted on Linux-PS3.
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There are many people that think the same at our brother web site AmigaWorld.
I hope for an Amiga Cell version too.
There is a Pol at AW to convince Hyperion to contact IBM for this:
Vote, please
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18800&forum=33 :-)