Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

[spirantho]

Myself, I just need something that runs AmigaOS, preferably 4.x.
But....
1) If you think I'm going to trust any preorder money to a company that has a reputation for lying, and a CEO who thinks that it's ok to post personal emails publicly to a forum as a tit-for-tat retaliation..... Er.... no. You may have a decent name but that doesn't mean anything.
2) Any answers from the Amiga community are going to require a lot of technology. Who will be working on it? We're talking a load more than just a reskin here.
3) We've been told repeatedly that we the community don't matter to them. So why this?
4) Is this really C=USA asking (who I don't trust *at all*, or Leo Nigro, who I do trust and respect?

If this is a genuine statement from C=USA then great, but if they want to work with the community they have a LOT of reparations to make first.

[spirantho]

Oh, well said. We have to lose this idea that the only acceptable outcome is some kind of mythic return-of-the-king "retaking" of a market the Amiga never owned to begin with. Let's set our sights on something that can actually be achieved, and figure out where to go from there once that's done.

Right, stop that! We'll have none of this sensible thinking round here. This is an Amiga forum, we have no room rational thinking, y'hear?
Now can we please get back to talking about more normal things like beating Apple and Microsoft with a 68030?

I dunno, maybe they could unify the community in the sense that they've pissed off pretty much everybody equally. You know, in the same sense that the Saxons unified the Britons.

Funny, that exact thought crossed my mind this morning too....

[spirantho]

I use a PC every day at work.
I sometimes use a PC at home.

If I could run Open Office on my Amigas, I would stop doing so immediately. I long for a Windows-free environment.

There's only one reason I'm using x86 architecture at all, and that's because I have to... and I'm far from alone.
So saying that "we all use Windows/x86 therefore Windows/x86 is our favourite platform" is... somewhat inaccurate, shall we say...

I kind of agree with what Middleman said about there being fewer upgrade options with the Amiga; it's true that the Amiga could have its video and CPU upgraded, but this was mostly ignored by C=. For Wintel, on the other hand, it was forced upon the users.... and that did make a large difference.

[spirantho]

==I guess you could say that....
Well CUSA are actually quite helpful but are just currently understaffed (sadly). And being an early supporter myself, well why not? Is there anything wrong with that?

But why are they understaffed?

A big company that has apparently had a $30m advertising budget, but doesn't have enough staff to answer support questions? Just doesn't make sense....

[spirantho]

All I'm going to say on the matter is this:
1) C=USA have no technical staff, otherwise C=OS would have been more than just a reskin. Also they would be being used to provide support.
2) C=USA have asked for us to provide ideas,  for them to implement in 6 months. That's about 24 weeks. There is no way anything close to what the Amiga commmunity will ask for will be done in this time. They would need this time just for testing alone - ask Trevor. He hired a professional team of experienced designers for the X1000 and it still took nearly two years. How can a company with no technical know-how do it in 6 months?
3) C=USA know full well that the chances of 500 Amiga people agreeing on what they want to the extent of plonking down the cash is close to zero.
4) It is not good business practice to promise something you may not be able to provide. Say 500 people agree to an AOS 4.x x86 port. C=USA take the money, and then Hyperion tell them to take a hike. What then?  Do we have to keep going through polls until we find a solution that they can legally do?

I can't quite work out whether they're being very naive (and being serious), genuinely trying to repair relations with the community they themselves went out of their way to alienate, or just having a laugh.

My gut feeling is that Leo (who I do think is genuine) really does want to repair relations with Amiga users, and that Barry (who has specifically told us where we can go) just doesn't care but is happy to let Leo do what he wants.... but it just comes across as desperation and a lack of a clear focus. This isn't the way to mend relations, this sounds like someone who wants to but doesn't know how to. C=USA need to do their own market research, and then work out if it's possible and how long it will take. They then should speak to the relevant companies (this can take months alone), and work out a licensing deal. After that they need to double the time it'll take, because these things always take longer than expected.

Once they've got:
A popular design of their choosing.
An accurate timescale including time to spare for unforseen hold-ups.
A pessimistic valuation of money required to cope with unforseen costs.
Agreed licensing deals with all parties concerned.
Green light from all lawyers and rights holders.

... THEN they can start taking pre-orders into an escrow service, with a clearly written legal document checked with professional lawyers, ensuring compliance with all regional variations in laws. Remember we're talking about a LOT of money here, maybe up to a million dollars.

Once all that is in place, maybe I'll be interested, but at the moment it's all upside-down, back-to-front and topsy-turvy.

[spirantho]

I'm trying to find a nice way of saying "you mean it's taken you this long to figure that out?!".....

[spirantho]

What I don't understand is why people are bothering to even think about this deal.
I mean, even if we forget the animosity toward C=USA; even if we forget the huge gaping holes in the logic of the offer (like deciding on a project to go with when they've not even got permission for all interested parties); even forgetting all that there is one simple fact that we cannot ignore:

At low volume the price is guaranteed to be at least several hundred dollars: what are the chances of getting 500 people of such a small community to agree to a project, for it to be legally possible and permitted by all parties, and for them to pay up real cash in advance for a project, even just $100?

Then you add in the fact that it'll probably take 10 polls before people agree on something that's feasible in 6 months, and legally possible and permitted.

[spirantho]

Excuse me but I wasn't born yesterday because I have been down this road with other con-artists.  Am I the only one who has been lied to and everyone else is gullible?

Nope, and I very much doubt they'll be able to find 500 people who don't feel the same.

[spirantho]

You are jumping ahead of things.  If the online Amiga Community can decided on a initial project, then C=USA has to do the research in the costs, which would include any needed license fees, that would go into a dead cost quote.  C=USA would then say what the quote is then it's up to the online Amiga Community to get the 500 order payments into a third party escrow account before C=USA will begin.  If C=USA can't get a license, then they announce the project is not possible because of the license issue.  Where is the gap of logic at there?

The gap of logic is that even if a project is agreed upon to a level that 500 people would take part, the chances of ALL of them still wanting to do so after the price is decided, and that the project is deemed possible, and that the project is accepted by all interested license and rights holders is close to nil. Then you have to go through the whole polling process again, except this time the chances of everyone agreeing are even smaller as their first choice has been dismissed. By the time you end up with a project that's permissable, you're talking about a mouse or something.

Why would a project cost $150K USD as a bare minimum?  It would depend on the project.  Remember, this is being done at dead cost, C=USA won't make a dime of profit off of it so it might be under $200USD @ unit, (total of $100KUSD) again, depending on what the project is.

Show me a project with only 500 units that costs less than $150, and will interest Amiga users sufficiently to cough up....

The whole thing is back to front. You can't as a company ask the public what they want, because people will never agree; this is exacerbated by the fact that most people aren't technical and don't know what's feasible and what's not, so you'll end up with as many crazy suggestions as sensible ones.

Please give me any example at all of a successful company asking the public what they want and then going with it.

The "visionaries" of this world didn't ask the public what they wanted, they showed them the project and made them want it.

[spirantho]

The poll results on blogspot are already showing the direction that this mythical machine would need to go in. That being, a powerful  PPC CPU with OS4, running legacy and next gen apps, in a wedgy case (with a mini tower option too maybe). That's the situation. So all CUSA needs to do is to let Hyperion use the names "Commodore" and "Amiga" and let them get on with it.

What part of that requires 500 people paying $500+ up front ?

As long as C=USA stick to what they have experience of, i.e. building cases then that's right. But C=USA have a whelk's chance in a supernova of actually building a new machine in 6 months from start to finish.  A veteran company with a staff of hundreds would struggle to do that.

That's the only way I can see this offer working at all; the Amiga community need to keep their feet on the ground. C=USA have proven they can build cases. Yes there were some mistakes (overheating for example), but they've learned from that. If the Amiga community agree to ask C=USA for a wedge-shaped case for an existing machine (e.g. Sam Flex/460), they might get it, but it'll be a push in 6 months. The problem is that traditionally the Amiga people get carried away and start asking for crazy things like an OS4 machine with the Hombre chipset or something totally impossible in 6 years, let alone 6 months.

This would work very well for C=USA, in fact, because the Sam boards are standard form factor, so they'd fit a PC. So Sam users get the wedge case and are happy, and the C=USA crowd get a wedge case  with "Amiga" written on, running Linux, and they're happy.

I have to say though I still think it's completely academic.... there's no way I can see 500 people plonking down any money into such a venture, escrow or not, even more so in the economic climate we're in.

[spirantho]

what's a whelk got to do with a supernova? :lol:

It doesn't stand a chance in one....

[spirantho]

But who's going to do it?
Hyperion aren't going to, they have their hands full. C=USA don't have the technical experience of software engineering. Who else is going to code the drivers, who has the experience to write the drivers and test them in 6 months. And if they're just going to pay for the drivers, because that's all you need - i.e. the design is done and working - then what do we need C=USA for at all? We could just pay for the drivers ourselves, or if we really need an intermediary, use a confirmed, reliable one like ACube.

It just doesn't make sense...

[spirantho]

That's an interesting idea, true. But I think the polls are going to be a bit more ambitious. After all, Leo kind of made it sound like C=USA would do anything, and a new keyboard isn't really the hopes and dreams of most people, it'd just be nice.

It is a good idea, though, I grant you.

[spirantho]

To be fair,  as long as it's expensive because it's good quality, and if the Amiga logos aren't just glued over the top of Windows buttons but are properly manufactured, I might be interested. But it would have to be a really good keyboard in itself, no way I would pay a big premium for an Amiga sticker.

[spirantho]

@Bishop077

That's a handy thing to wish given that's exactly what Hyperion are doing!