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Author Topic: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know  (Read 3827 times)

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Offline MskoDestny

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« on: October 13, 2005, 02:39:28 AM »
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
I think I'll wait for the PS3 since it is rumored to be more open with an open-source operating system on the optional hard drive and a faster processor.

The processor is theoretically faster, but it requires a greater shift in programming methodology to achieve that performance. The XBox 360 has 3 general purpose cores whereas the PS3 has one general purpose cores and seven SPEs that are largely dedicated to vector math.

I'm currently in the XBox 360 camp. By the time the PS3 comes out it will have a bigger library (assuming you don't count titles from the previous generation) and it looks like it will be more developer friendly than the PS3 (in difficulty to program, not necessarily in openness).

I like the motion sensing of the Revolution's controller, but I'm not crazy about the idea of having to attach junk to my TV for it to work. The remote control format doesn't really jive with my sensibilities either. Also Nintendo has given me little reason to believe that it won't be quite underpowered compared to the competition (they're announced 2-3x more powerful than the Gamecube isn't terribly encouraging).

Regardless, the smartest thing to do is wait until they're out and see which one has more games that you want to play. Even on the basis of graphics alone, everything is mostly speculation (to a lesser extent on the XBox360 since there's been more content shown, the leaked PGR3 video is quite impressive).
 

Offline MskoDestny

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2005, 03:04:29 PM »
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lou_dias wrote:
If you listen to some developers, there is no good compilers to take advantage of the second and third cores on the 360.  That means that first gen 360 titles will used about twice the processing power of the original Xbox.  Same goes for the PS3 and their SPU's.  Nobody's going to use all 7 for a very very long time.

You don't need a good compiler to take advantage of all 3 cores, you need to learn how to write a multi-threaded game. It won't be an incredibly easy transition, but games that were actually designed for next-gen hardware (like PGR3) instead of just beefed up versions of current-gen games look quite good already. Compilers still could stand to be better given that the cores are in order and have relatively poor branch prediction, but things are looking good with current compilers.

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Nintendo states that their system is going to be 3-5 times more powerful than the GC.

Source please. Only numbers I've heard from Nintendo are 2-3 times more powerful not 3-5.

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What you don't understand is that when they make that statement, it applies to every aspect of the system, not an overall value.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. They said the Revolution would be 2-3x more powerful than the Gamecube, not that each individual component would be.

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It will be 2.5GHz out-of-order executing PPC G5.  The 360 is using an in-order executing core...to save money but have a higher clock.

That's just rumor at the moment and I don't particularly buy it. The G5 is an expensive part and it would have been foolish of Nintendo to say that the Revolution would only be 2-3x more powerful when the chip that would power it has 5x the clockspeed a more complete vector unit and a substantially improved FPU.

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Show me one cross platform game that looks better on the PS2 than on the Gamecube! - Exactly - doesn't exist.

The PS2 has a "weird" architecture compared to the Gamecube and XBox. Getting anywhere near what it's capable of requires that you tailor your game around the hardware. When developing a multi-platform game you have to shoot for the middle of the pack. In the next generation, the PS3 and XBox360 will be relatively similar. Both have high speed, but not incredibly sophisticated processors and both depend on thread level parallelism for high performance. If the rumors about the Revolution are true, then it will be the odd-man out next generation, much like the PS2 was this generation.

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Nintendo is also coming out about 9 months after the 360.

Nintendo hasn't published a release date other than saying sometime in 2006.

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Don't count out Nintendo.

They've sold fewer consoles with each generation and I so no reason that trend won't continue. The Gamecube has some great first and second party games, but the third party lineup was quite weak and that's not going to improve unless they manage to get some more marketshare.

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That 3D motion and positional sensing controller with plug-in configurations will make FPS games a dream to play on the machine...not to mention RTS.  It will be a better interface than the mouse.

FPS games will still suck on the console for lack of buttons. I'll reserve judgement on how well the whole motion sensing works out until I can try one, but I'm not crazy about having to attach extra junk to my TV to make it work. The plug-in concept seems to defeat the purpose of making the controller simple and remote shaped in the first place. The thing was supposed to be simple and approachable, but the plug-in add-ons just make the thing mroe complicated. I sort of see the following situation happening. Some games just need the remote, some need the analog stick, Gamecube/N64/SNES games and maybe some multi-platform games need the funny shell that makes it more like a standard controller. Would have been simpler if they had just added the motion/position sensing to the Gamecube controller and given it a minor tweak or two.

As for the XBox 360 and compatability, the game itself doesn't have to come with an emulator. The emulator comes with the hard drive. At the moment it's unclear which games will work. Popular titles like Halo and Halo 2 will definately work, more niche titles are more of a crap shoot at the moment. If compatability is important to you, I'd wait for a few months and see what people say. My guess is they will try their best to make every game work, but they aren't likely to test all games.
 

Offline MskoDestny

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2005, 03:29:30 AM »
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lou_dias wrote:
Nintendo retracted their 2-3 times the power statement with a 3-5.

I'd still like to see your source of this information.

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They've also stated that codename Revolution would be released shortly after the PS3 which is currently due March/April of 2006.

Shortly after is somewhat of a relative term and is a far cry to commiting to a release date.

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As for how can I make that statement about every aspect of the system...let's break it down:

Basically you're making your claim based on specs leaked by supposed developers who also claim that Nintendo hasn't even decided on the final specs yet.

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disc drive: 8cm 1.8GB disc vs. 12cm 6GB disc > 3

I thought the revolution would use standard DVDs? Wouldn't that be either 4.7 or 8.something GBs?

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memory minimun: 40MB vs minimum of 128MB + 512 internal flash > 5

Counting the flash along with the RAM is a mistake. It's more akin to a small hard drive with a really low seek time than RAM. That said some of the supposed specs leak had some huge amount of RAM in it. Don't know if I believe that though.

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gpu: 162.5MHz w/3MB texture cache vs. (estimated atleast as good as the XBOX's since Ninento has a stronger relationship with ATI and longer development time invested) 500MHz w/10MB texture cache > 3

I don't think the longer relationship argument is going to go very far. ATI must have had offered Microsoft a pretty sweet chip (or perhaps a really sweet pricing deal) to lure them away from nVidia (thus making backwards compatability more complicated). Furthermore, it seems it's a safe bet that Microsoft can promise to buy more chips than Nintendo.

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as for my claims on the cpu.  You act like a G5 is expensive these days.

Well it is expensive and Nintendo has this habit of trying to make a profit on every console they sell.

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The cpu has been in MACs for a couple of years now in sufficient numbers.

And just how expensive is the cheapest Mac with a 2.5GHz or higher G5? If they were shoving them in Mac minis, I might agree that it's cheap.

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If anything, I expect Nintendo to move more CPU's then Apple ever did over the course of Revolution's lifetime.

Apple sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.25 million Macintoshes in the last quarter. Hard to say how many of those were G5s, but all of the PowerMacs have two CPUs these days. Given that Nintendo has sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 million Gamecubes I don't think they're in different ballparks.

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Multiple developers have leaked that Nintendo had 2 systems proto-typed as devloper board.  A dual cpu 1.8 GHz machine and a single 2.5 GHz machine.

And that means diddly squat. Microsoft's early dev machines were dual 2.5GHz G5s. That's not what they released in the end.
 

Offline MskoDestny

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2005, 02:40:28 PM »
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lou_dias wrote:
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Counting the flash along with the RAM is a mistake. It's more akin to a small hard drive with a really low seek time than RAM. That said some of the supposed specs leak had some huge amount of RAM in it. Don't know if I believe that though.

they've stated they will be less expensive than the 360 or PS3.  Having more RAM makes that harder to achieve.  Bet on 128 or 256MB.

So you believe the leaks when it comes to the CPU, but not when it comes to the RAM?

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Promises mean nothing.  ATI designed the chip but MS owns the rights to it and can have anyone manufacture it.  That's a fact.

All depends on the deal they struck with ATI and I have seen nothing to indicate that they actually bought the design from ATI. Everything would seem to suggest that ATI still owns the design and Microsoft is just going to buy chips from them. That's the way it works elsewhere, I don't see why it wouldn't work that way here as well.

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when you buy a PPC Mac, you are not paying for a CPU and getting MAC OS X as a bonus, it's more like the other way around.  You are buying a brand and paying a premium price for that brand in order to maintain an image.

Top end PowerMacs are equivalent in price of high end machines of similar spec from other manufacturers. But lets do a little exercise. The Mac Mini is estimated to have a profit margin of around 50% so that means it contains about $250 of parts and it only has a lowly G4. For the most part it has similar parts to what you would find in your rumored Revolution except that most of them are less capable (the only exception being that the Mini has a hard drive and the Revolution has flash). Since the G5 is certainly a good deal more expensive than the G4 and the new GPU from ATI is certainly more expensive than the Radeon 9200 in the Mini, the manufacturing cost starts to put the console right in with Sony and Microsoft which Nintendo has publicly stated they won't do.

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yes, we all know early 360 devkits were MACs.  So what?  2 magazines have made these statements.  The same magazines that told us what the 360 devkits were.

My point is that the 360 devkits and the final hardware weren't incredibly similar so there's little reason to believe that the Nintendo devkits are any more similar to the final hardware.

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Here's the bottome line.  To be easily 100% backwards compatible with the GC, Nintendo's only choice is to go with the G5.

They could go with any number of PowerPC processors from the G4 to one or more of the PPEs found in the X360 and PS3.

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Here's a Revolution FAQ: http://cube.ign.com/articles/522/522559p1.html
I believe it's page 3 that mention the "2-3 times more powerful" statement as being FALSE.
It also says they haven't said how powerful it will be since then which puts a bit of a damper on the 3-5x argument.

In the same FAQ they also publicly stated that the machine will be less powerful than Microsoft's and Sony's offerings.