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AuthorTopic: (RFD) How can we support...?  (Read 2071 times)

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Offline Wayne

(RFD) How can we support...?
« on: May 29, 2009, 02:49:02 PM »
Hi,

The recent thread rehashing the Amiga trademark ownership situation, along with the eternal lawsuits and lack of facts about who owns what got me thinking.

In effect, since Amiga Inc either refuses to work with the community, or is restricted by lawsuit from doing so (who knows?), I'm of the belief that -- until they say differently -- we're literally on our own here.

I can't say that I blame them for not interacting with this community.  Frankly there are those of us who've become rabid over the years, and let's face it, McEwen and crew own their equal share of blame for that due to their actions, or inaction as it were.

However, I'm *not* here to rehash that old crap, so *PLEASE* note that I'm going to monitor this thread and try to keep things on track as much as possible.

What's the subject then?

How can we (Amiga.org and you, the members) better work to support the Amiga community?  Thinking outside the box, seriously, besides the services we've always provided, and those that we are working to restore, how can we -- as a collective -- work together to make this site, and this community a better, more active, and more productive place to be?

Let's stop waiting on anyone to be our savior here and make our own fate as it were.

What say ye?

Wayne
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Offline spirantho

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2009, 03:22:32 PM »
Hi Wayne,

A good idea, to be sure.

But first I think we need to work out who "the Amiga community" is.

We've always assumed that "The Amiga Community" was people using anything from an A1000 to an A4000T, and in the past that was the case. But now things are different. Many MorphOS users considers themselves the Amiga Community too, but they don't even use anything to do with Amiga itself any more.

Hence I think we need to work out what direction we want the "community" to move in. Are we looking to get the most out of our old CBM machines? Or are we embracing the Hyperion AmigaOS and striving for a well-supported Amiga-compatible OS which has little to do with the original hardware.

Hence I think we need to define exactly who "The Amiga Community" are before we can think about moving said community in one unified direction. Or, alternatively, try something easier, like herding cats.

Personally, though, I'm all in favour of doing the best we can for AmigaOS as it stands, including AmigaOS 4 as that's the best OS I've used in ages and is Amiga compatible.

I think you've created a good incentive, though, here. We've got things like ACube's systems, the NatAmi hopefully eventually, and other plans. Now we just need to get behind them to succeed.
--
Ian Gledhill
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Offline Wayne

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2009, 03:59:22 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;456880
But first I think we need to work out who "the Amiga community" is.

Not really.  To put limits on it is to restrict what we're trying to accomplish.  

I have my own personal reasons which preclude me from accepting MorphOS as "Amiga related", but again, that's personal, and your entire post -- while helpful -- is all about digging up all the old crap from the red vs blue days, which is counterproductive.

I'm not asking to change the basic tenet of this site.  We exist to support the Classic Amiga platform *and* whatever else comes along, but until that something else comes front and center, this site pretty much stays focused on "what is", not "what will be"..  

Unfortunately, as other sites are discovering, the official "what will be" is taking its sweet time to hatch.

Quote
We've always assumed that "The Amiga Community" was people using anything from an A1000 to an A4000T, and in the past that was the case. But now things are different. Many MorphOS users considers themselves the Amiga Community too, but they don't even use anything to do with Amiga itself any more.
I'm not trying to exclude anyone here.  I just think that AMIGA.org loses focus and doesn't do nearly as good a job if we split our attention to alternative platforms.  That's my opinion, but -- aside from supporting anything involving Bill Buck -- I'm amazingly open to other ideas if that's what the members of this site demand.

Unfortunately, based on my personal and professional history with that one person, the only thing that will change my mind is a certified money order for the monies I am owed from 2003.  Again, bringing up old crap but I apologize as I'm still angry over it.


Quote
Hence I think we need to work out what direction we want the "community" to move in. Are we looking to get the most out of our old CBM machines? Or are we embracing the Hyperion AmigaOS and striving for a well-supported Amiga-compatible OS which has little to do with the original hardware.
This site is, and will always "embrace" whatever its members want to embrace.  I have always been open to adding new forums for anything that is wanted by group populace.   Their use of it however has traditionally fallen short of needing more (take the AROS forum for example).

Quote
Hence I think we need to define exactly who "The Amiga Community" are before we can think about moving said community in one unified direction.
In this case, you're asking for the impossible.  In 2009, this community (as a generality) has been so splintered by angry and rabid members that we have at least 5 sites, where one would suffice.  "We" will never agree as to what "the community" is.  

I can only deal with what the community is *on this site* and hope to strike a chord which resonates with the most people.  I forget where I read it, but I agree with whomever said it that "running an Amiga site is not about getting everyone to agree, but about pissing off the fewest people"
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 04:05:28 PM by Wayne »
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Offline Wayne

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2009, 04:07:40 PM »
... I digress however, as your post is invalid to the context of this thread.

We are the community.  Regardless of which "Gods" we follow.  If you're reading this thread, then *you* are "the community".

Point solved.  Now back to the actual subject.  How do we make things better or move them forward?

Wayne
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Offline ChaosLord

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2009, 05:23:10 PM »
1. We invent new products for Amiga machines.  These can be for Amiga Virtual Machines or Amiga Real Machines.  Hardware and software.  Freeware, public domain, shareware, commercial, cheeseware, etc.

2. Those who are  incapable of creating Amiga related products can donate money to bounties.

3. Supply properly moderated forums so that the Amiga Community can support all the people who create Amiga products without getting flamed, attacked or harrassed.

4. I know at least 1 other spectacularly great thing that we could do but it is top secret.  I don't know how I would ever find someone reliable enough to team up with to execute the plan.  It would basically solve the main problem the Amiga Community faces in one instant.

All for Amiga!  And Amiga for All!
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Offline wawrzon

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2009, 05:45:17 PM »
establish a bounty service section, especially for 68k. mos, os4 and aros have actually dedicated sites. not so 68k. there are several threads on different sites about bounties people would like to establish or donate to but they dont find a trusty manager.
 

Offline Belial6

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2009, 06:42:59 PM »
I would say that to become independent, we need to finish moving out of Mom's (AInc.) basement.  Mom (The Amiga Name) has become a weathered old whore who is trying to wear today's teen clothes and telling people that she is still hot.  This is while the youngens are not even noticing her and everybody that used to think she was hot are still wanking it to pictures of her from 20 years ago.

I suggest that we pull a Linux/Unix.  We start using "MiniMig" in place of "Amiga" and just make a reference like "Amiga Compatible" or "Modernized Amiga".  We don't need to deny our heritage any more than Linux denies it's Unix heritage, but if we want to stand on our own, we need to stop riding the Amiga name.

The other piece is that we need to get AROS ported to the MiniMig.  The Amiga name, and the AmigaOS is the only hold that AInc has on our community.  Getting an independent OS is the only way to get out from our whithered old mother's thumb.  Even if we move out of her basement (via the MiniMig), we still have not become indepent if we have to go back to her every time the water bill (the OS) comes in.
 

Offline pVC

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2009, 07:00:37 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;456880
Many MorphOS users considers themselves the Amiga Community too, but they don't even use anything to do with Amiga itself any more.


I guess you haven't been MorphOS user yourself ever when you say such thing :)

Using MorphOS is totally related to Amiga. Most parts of the OS itself are purely Amiga legacy. MUI is the official GUI toolkit, Poseidon is the official USB stack, CGX is the official graphics driver, TurboPrint is the official printing system, SFS is the official filesystem, directory structure is the same as on Amiga, you have same commands and ways to do things than on Amiga etc. You can't in any way say that using MorphOS has nothing to do with Amiga!

And that didn't include the used 3rd party programs! No MorphOS user can avoid being using 68k/WOS/PUP software on his/her machine. Almost all important Amiga applications do work on MorphOS and many don't have native equivalents, so it's very likely every MorphOS user is, and will be, using good old familiar Amiga programs. It's one reason why we have selected MorphOS. Just because we want to keep using our beloved Amiga programs without needing any external emulator, and with an OS as close as possible original Amiga and Amiga spirit!

MorphOS wouldn't have any users or wouldn't have developed to point where it is without a passion for Amiga and desire to continue being an amigan!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 07:06:44 PM by pVC »
Daily MorphOS user and Amiga active.
 

Offline toca180

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2009, 07:00:56 PM »
May be I have missed these on other sites but what about guides/how tos for new people to community? What I mean by this is a central place that has guides on setting up different aspects of the Amiga, e.g. installing Amiga OS and basic (essential?) addons. If these guides are already written then links to them but still in a central place.

Just my suggestion.  :crazy:

Robert
A1200 (Dead :-(  OS 3.1/3.1, 030@33, 882@33, 2/8MB RAM, 1.4GB HDD
A500 OS 3.1/3.1, 020@14, 882@14, 0.5/6.5MB RAM, A590 2GB SCSI HDD, CD ROM, Mas Player
A600 OS 2.1/2.05, 000@7, 1/0MB RAM

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Offline Wayne

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM »
Quote from: toca180;456953
May be I have missed these on other sites but what about guides/how tos for new people to community? What I mean by this is a central place that has guides on setting up different aspects of the Amiga, e.g. installing Amiga OS and basic (essential?) addons. If these guides are already written then links to them but still in a central place.

Just my suggestion.  :crazy:

Robert
Try amigawiki.com ??
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Offline Matt_H

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2009, 10:06:19 PM »
I had suggested a bounties module for Amiga.org a while before the switchover to the new forum, and it looks like others are thinking the same thing. A bounties system for 68K could be pretty helpful, I think.

We've seen, unfortunately, that bounties for huge projects (IE, Mozilla, OpenOffice) haven't really gone anywhere, but I suspect bounties for small projects could yield some real, usable results. I'm thinking along the lines of "Fix bug x in y.library", "Port powersdl.library to 68K", "Make a datatype for file format z".





On the more general front...

I love the imagery of the Mom's basement/Amiga, Inc. analogy. The one (read: only) thing that Amiga, Inc. has right however, is that the Amiga name itself is very powerful. Therefore, I don't think that divorcing the community from the name "Amiga" is a good way to grow the platform/hobby.

My entirely non-scientific example is that mentioning MorphOS or AROS in almost any general technology/computing forum will be greeted with a response of "What the hell is that?", if anything, while Amiga still gets an "I remember the Amiga", even though the three platforms are almost the exact same thing and are all, more or less, still all part of the same community. I suspect BeOS and Haiku/Zeta also suffered for similar reasons.

So my suggestion is that instead of divorcing the community from Amiga, we should divorce Amiga, Inc. from the community. Make it absolutely clear that AI does not have the interests of the current platform, preserving its history, or the community in mind.
 
I think a lot of former users see AI and think that it represents the current state of affairs for the entire platform (cell phone games from 2001 and vaporware PASemi boards), which we all know not to be the case.

If the community can once again become the dominant (and positive!) force behind the Amiga name, then Amiga, Inc.'s shell game could collapse and the trademarks could finally end up somewhere useful (a non-profit, Mozilla.org-style organization, preferably).
 

Offline toca180

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2009, 10:11:26 PM »
Quote from: Wayne;456959
Try amigawiki.com ??

Had no idea that site existed. Thanks for the link.

Robert
A1200 (Dead :-(  OS 3.1/3.1, 030@33, 882@33, 2/8MB RAM, 1.4GB HDD
A500 OS 3.1/3.1, 020@14, 882@14, 0.5/6.5MB RAM, A590 2GB SCSI HDD, CD ROM, Mas Player
A600 OS 2.1/2.05, 000@7, 1/0MB RAM

Commodore
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128 1530
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Offline JC

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2009, 10:51:33 PM »
Well here's my idea, I don't know if it's good or bad so you be the judge. I was thinking that the Amiga community could really use some new users. But how do you get them since you can't really buy new Amigas at Walmart or hardly anywhere else. Plus they are kinda expensive. But there might be some people interested in an alternative platform that is not affected by spyware, viruses, malware, etc... If there was a section of Amiga.org dedicated to teaching people about the Samiga and OS4.1 it's might be possible to gain some new people. Could be geared towards prospective buyers or beginners and list features, maybe even have demo's or videos. Might even be able to get Amigakit involved somehow. I just think that it would be kind of neat if there was something like that to direct frustrated pee see users towards. I mean there a tons of people that do not even realise that the Amiga is an option.
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Offline J-Golden

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Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2009, 03:41:17 AM »
I'm no software guru, but the last big thing I can remember was Amithilon.  I know I know, that was an awesome spectacle of how Amiga seems to be cursed, but now that we have dual core etc. systems out there, can anyone create some thing like that?

When I say create, I know it is a BIT more difficult then a small prog. in basic, but it was done before, we've seen the proof, what's to keep someone from doing it again?  This time making sure there are no money grubbing contributors ;)
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Offline quarkx

Re: (RFD) How can we support...?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2009, 04:09:48 AM »
Quote from: Belial6;456945
I would say that to become independent, we need to finish moving out of Mom's (AInc.) basement.  Mom (The Amiga Name) has become a weathered old whore who is trying to wear today's teen clothes and telling people that she is still hot.  This is while the youngens are not even noticing her and everybody that used to think she was hot are still wanking it to pictures of her from 20 years ago.

I suggest that we pull a Linux/Unix.  We start using "MiniMig" in place of "Amiga" and just make a reference like "Amiga Compatible" or "Modernized Amiga".  We don't need to deny our heritage any more than Linux denies it's Unix heritage, but if we want to stand on our own, we need to stop riding the Amiga name.

The other piece is that we need to get AROS ported to the MiniMig.  The Amiga name, and the AmigaOS is the only hold that AInc has on our community.  Getting an independent OS is the only way to get out from our whithered old mother's thumb.  Even if we move out of her basement (via the MiniMig), we still have not become indepent if we have to go back to her every time the water bill (the OS) comes in.


WHAAAAATTTTT? (wow, what every you have been smoking, I want some :) )
The minimig will never ever ever replace the commodore stuff (clasic Amigas) its just another febal atempt and just a flash in the pan of new hardware (just like the sam, be-os, and everything else that has come out since the Commodore hardware).
We, as a community have to carry on the flame, educate the public and the youth at what the Amiga was, and make sure that that torch is carried on to future generations. If we don't, companies like Apple will re-write the history and make sure that the word "Commodore" was never muttered. (just look at ALL Apple advertising since the begining of Apple, and movies like "pirates of the Sillicon Valley, The PBS series "triumph of the nerds" etc. People are trying very hard to whipe Commodore from the history books. Infact, no school today probably even mentions them in computer classes.
I make it my personal goal, through the website, magazine, wearing Amiga t-shirts and such to make sure that people remeber that Commodore exsited, that the Amiga exsited. We must do what evere it will take, making small amouts of hardware that make the classic Amiga's more useable and somewhat modern.
I am trying to re-vibe Amitrix, and Amicue with real excitment about the classic hardware.
It takes just a few minutes a day to promote it, I even had an e-mail conversation with Bil Herd just yesterday about it.
That is what it takes, we all must try. Forget linix, Samm and the Minimig, they are just pretenders, focus on the real thing.
I have Amiga stuff for sale at http://amigalounge.com. You can follow my builds there also.