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Offline ppcamiga1

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #104 from previous page: July 19, 2014, 10:36:20 AM »
More than twenty years ago when I bought the Amiga 1200,

the most annoying thing is that the games does not work with a hard drive,

because some idiots doing these games "optimized" them and read out data from floppy disk

without the operating system.

On the Amiga with floppy disk only those games were faster maybe about 1%,

but on the Amiga with a hard drive were useless because these games do not use hard disk.

The same games work better on pc because these games use hard disk.


The second of most annoying thing on the Amiga 1200,

was that software does not work with VGA monitor.

Because again some idiots "optimized" the software,

users lost the ability to connect at low cost VGA monitor to Amiga.

Those idiots could have gained maybe 1.5% on performance, maybe not.

VGA cable to connect to the Amiga 1200 may cost 4 Euro maybe less.

Users should not be forced to purchase scandoubler for 150 Euro

and more because some developers are too stupid,

to give up with useless "optimization".

AGA must be differently programmed to use an ordinary monitor,

and differently to use VGA monitor.

It is sad but this is what Commdore did many years ago, and developers have to just accept it.




Access to the hard disk on the classic Amiga, should be made only through the system,

the original IDE interface is too slow, software for classic Amiga should work with FastATA.

Access to the graphics on the Amiga classic, should be made only through the system,

users should be able to connect at a low cost VGA monitor to Amiga.

Access to the keyboard and mouse on the Amiga classic, should be made only through the system,

users should be able to use USB mouse and keyboard with USB interface only and

without additional hardware.
 

Offline itix

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Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #105 on: July 19, 2014, 10:59:52 AM »
Quote from: ppcamiga1;769358
More than twenty years ago when I bought the Amiga 1200,

the most annoying thing is that the games does not work with a hard drive,

because some idiots doing these games "optimized" them and read out data from floppy disk

without the operating system.


During 80s harddisks were rare and expensive. It made sense to optimize games for typical Amiga 500 configuration.

Quote

On the Amiga with floppy disk only those games were faster maybe about 1%,

but on the Amiga with a hard drive were useless because these games do not use hard disk.

The same games work better on pc because these games use hard disk.


They do. But on amiga you can fit more data to floppies if you throw away filesystem.

Quote

The second of most annoying thing on the Amiga 1200,

was that software does not work with VGA monitor.

Because again some idiots "optimized" the software,

users lost the ability to connect at low cost VGA monitor to Amiga.

Those idiots could have gained maybe 1.5% on performance, maybe not.


By using VGA monitor you lose 50% on performance.

Quote

Access to the hard disk on the classic Amiga, should be made only through the system,

the original IDE interface is too slow, software for classic Amiga should work with FastATA.

Access to the graphics on the Amiga classic, should be made only through the system,

users should be able to connect at a low cost VGA monitor to Amiga.


Btw if you only have VGA monitor on your Amiga you get into trouble if your system stops booting. AmigaOS cant display early bootmenu nor boot console on VGA.
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline spirantho

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2014, 12:26:19 PM »
Itix has covered most of this already but...

Quote from: ppcamiga1;769358
More than twenty years ago when I bought the Amiga 1200,
the most annoying thing is that the games does not work with a hard drive, because some idiots doing these games "optimized" them and read out data from floppy disk without the operating system.


Why is that being an idiot?
Reading data from a floppy disk is much faster if you know exactly what you're doing. If you're doing dynamic disk access (i.e. reading data while playing the game without interruption) it's almost a necessity.
With a well-organised disk you can just blast the data from certain tracks straight into memory - much faster than messing around with file tables, and much less memory required.
And that's not even to mention copy-protection systems which were standard at the times.

Quote

On the Amiga with floppy disk only those games were faster maybe about 1%,


Floppy access can be MUCH faster without the OS overheads on smaller chunks of data, and less memory footprint, which is very important. Plus to use the OS routines, you need the OS in memory too, which can be a very large chunk of available memory.
1% is massively understating the potential gains, in speed and memory.

Quote

but on the Amiga with a hard drive were useless because these games do not use hard disk.
The same games work better on pc because these games use hard disk.


But hardly anyone at the time actually had a hard disk. Most of the Amigas were sold were the standard versions, and those who DID have a hard disk tended to use them for serious things which really needed them because they were so small. The A600 came with a 20MB hard disk. By the time you've installed Workbench and some serious utilities, you barely had enough room for anything else, especially a game with 1MB per disk. You could always put in another larger hard disk, but these were seriously expensive at the time.

Quote

The second of most annoying thing on the Amiga 1200,was that software does not work with VGA monitor. Because again some idiots "optimized" the software, users lost the ability to connect at low cost VGA monitor to Amiga.


You need to think about what the market was at the time. Most Amiga users were using a TV, maybe by 1992 more people had VGA-capable monitors, but those who did usually had the Commodore or Microvitec monitors which could do both anyway. Standard VGA monitors were not very much cheaper so the Commodore/Microvitec so there was little to gain by supporting VGA only, and a LOT to lose.
To support VGA - apart from the fact that the AGA chipset just doesn't have the bandwidth to do most games in VGA - would require re-engineering games to work on VGA or normal, and when 99% of the market have or have access to 15KHz monitors which would you support?

Quote

Those idiots could have gained maybe 1.5% on performance, maybe not.


Those idiots quite often knew the hardware inside-out and knew the limitations and capabilities of the machine better than most of the people here.

Quote

VGA cable to connect to the Amiga 1200 may cost 4 Euro maybe less.  Users should not be forced to purchase scandoubler for 150 Euro and more because some developers are too stupid, to give up with useless "optimization".


Nobody was ever forced to buy a scandoubler, and the reason games were done in 15KHz is because they had to be. The AGA chipset was never designed for rapid access to 31KHz screenmodes (hence why the screenmode is called "Productivity").

Quote

AGA must be differently programmed to use an ordinary monitor, and differently to use VGA monitor. It is sad but this is what Commdore did many years ago, and developers have to just accept it.


Developers had to accept the limitations of the machine, yes.

Quote

Access to the hard disk on the classic Amiga, should be made only through the system, the original IDE interface is too slow, software for classic Amiga should work with FastATA. Access to the graphics on the Amiga classic, should be made only through the system, users should be able to connect at a low cost VGA monitor to Amiga. Access to the keyboard and mouse on the Amiga classic, should be made only through the system, users should be able to use USB mouse and keyboard with USB interface only and without additional hardware.


I think you're underestimating the impact of the OS on a game. Squeezing a game into a floppy and 1MB or even 2MB could be a real challenge (remember 2MB on the A1200 sounds like more but the extra quality graphics soon makes that disappear).

There are very good reasons why these "idiots" made the choices they did. Yes, in a perfect world everything would work in 31KHz with OS-legal everything, but to get the performance out of a system like the A1200 (which was far slower and more limited in resources than the PC you compare to) developers had to sacrifice things.

This is why certain games like Colonization, Robosport and Sim City 2000 work in the OS - because they can happily work in the OS with slower disk access, and the market is people with "serious" machines - but making games like Zool run in the OS is pointless for nearly all the market they're appealing to.
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Offline psxphill

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2014, 01:26:15 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;769360
Floppy access can be MUCH faster without the OS overheads on smaller chunks of data, and less memory footprint, which is very important. Plus to use the OS routines, you need the OS in memory too, which can be a very large chunk of available memory.
1% is massively understating the potential gains, in speed and memory.

You should be able to see the result by using WHDLoad.
 
I think the reason why games kept using custom disk loading was due to piracy and not enough people caring about running games from a hard disk.
 
The are plenty of PC games that did exactly the same thing in the mid 80's, but eventually they decided that allowing the games to be installed on a hard disk would boost sales. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?16334-PC-Floppy-Disk-Games-Copy-Protection
 
I remember removing the floppy disk protection check from one of the lemmings games on the PC so it could run without the original disk in the drive.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:29:16 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline spirantho

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #108 on: July 19, 2014, 01:37:53 PM »
WHDLoad has the benefit of running on machines with more resources, though. Running WHDLoad'ed games on an A600 - even where it's possible - isn't terribly enjoyable!

Copy protection was a large part of it, though, yes. But it certainly wasn't stupidity or idiocy.
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Offline Thorham

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Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #109 on: July 19, 2014, 04:30:55 PM »
Reading data from floppy faster than from hard drive? What an absolute load of nonsense. Where do people come up with that crap?
 

Offline spirantho

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #110 on: July 19, 2014, 04:32:55 PM »
It course not, but track loading is much faster than file loading from a floppy.
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guest11527

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Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2014, 06:30:00 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;769370
It course not, but track loading is much faster than file loading from a floppy.

Why? Do you think that games use higher magic for loading? The trackdisk device also reads the data in full tracks, and then decodes the entire track in a single go, buffering the result. The limiting factor is the I/O speed of the floppy, and the timing of step motor. Everything else is just software and quite a bit faster than any type of I/O operation.

The only reason why games used custom track formats was either to include a little more data on the floppy by using a smaller track gap, or for copy protection.
 

Offline spirantho

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2014, 07:46:32 PM »
Just because file loading requires more seeking (to block 880, particularly). With track loading you know at any time where the head is and where it needs to be. I/O time is more or less the same (usually slightly faster with custom loaders), but seek time can be much less. Just look at copying a disk to RAM: using "Copy DF0:#? RAM:" to "Diskcopy from DF0: to RAD:". They're both doing the exactly same thing, but Diskcopy will be massively faster, because the seeking is nearly eliminated.
With trackloading, you can optimise everything for fast, efficient, low-memory loading, because the OS as to cope with generic cases. When you know exactly where the data is that you want, you can do it directly much faster.
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guest11527

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Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2014, 07:59:00 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;769379
Just because file loading requires more seeking (to block 880, particularly).

I guess we're talking about two different abstraction levels here. I was talking about the difference between using trackdisk.device and a custom track loader that hacks the hardware. You are talking about using a custom file system (or just data track by track) vs. the standard OFS.  

These are different levels. A floppy not using OFS can still use the Amiga floppy format and the trackdisk.device for reading, but can equally simply copied. Yes, I agree, if you do not depend on the OFS, you can be faster due to lack of seeking. However, that's not what most games did. They used also (besides a custom "filing system") a custom low-level format, and *that* makes not a major difference speedwise. There is no other reason to disable the Os except that, the trackdisk.device worked perfectly fine. Thus, even with the Os you can load faster. Just do not depend on files and the OFS.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2014, 08:30:05 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;769374
Why? Do you think that games use higher magic for loading? The trackdisk device also reads the data in full tracks, and then decodes the entire track in a single go, buffering the result. The limiting factor is the I/O speed of the floppy, and the timing of step motor. Everything else is just software and quite a bit faster than any type of I/O operation.

trackdisk.device is awful, in the abacus book there was a program that patched 1.2 trackdisk to double it's speed (http://issuu.com/ivanguidomartucci/docs/amiga-disk-drives-inside-and-out---ebook-eng page 249, real page 240). Either the person at commodore/amiga who wrote trackdisk didn't understand the hardware, or it was written before functionality was added/worked and the code wasn't revisited. I think commodore improved it in release 2 but it was a little late by then as amiga games were already in decline.
 
If we'd had the os loaded from flash rom or hard disk, instead of mask rom then it would have made more sense to use the os.
 
Final Fight uses the OS for disk loading during levels, so it's entirely possible. But I guess it is slower, has less ram and cpu in the process.
When dos.library and the filesystem was bought in, it was only minimally changed to fit into the amiga & it wasn't a great design in the first place. commodore also improved it in release 2, but there are some things they couldn't change because of compatibility.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 08:49:21 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2014, 11:10:56 PM »
Peecee operating system in assembly language: http://www.menuetos.net.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2014, 11:13:42 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;769392
Peecee operating system in assembly language: http://www.menuetos.net.
No, no, no, Thorham! You can't manage a large-scale project in assembler, therefore that doesn't exist!
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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Offline LiveForIt

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2014, 11:38:50 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;769383
Either the person at commodore/amiga who wrote trackdisk didn't understand the hardware, or it was written before functionality was added/worked and the code wasn't revisited.

The issue is that Amiga500 does not have lot RAM, there is space for pre fetching blocks.
Instead the disk has rotate to correct sector read a block discard the rest, rotate to next sector read a block and discard the rest.

The same problem you have now with faster ide/sata devices, now because the disk is so fast anyway so they don't care, but it is a problem for DVD and CD, if the filesystem is not smart about how to read blocks the it filters down to device io, where there is no intelligence to make it as efficient as possible.

Anyway perfecting every block in track on Amiga500 was not some thing they did, most likely because it takes up memory. When you have only 512k, then every byte count.

What does not make sense is way they don't do it today.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 11:51:44 PM by LiveForIt »
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #118 on: July 20, 2014, 01:29:43 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;769393
No, no, no, Thorham! You can't manage a large-scale project in assembler, therefore that doesn't exist!
Even if you could, it would probably end up being riddled with bugs anyway :rofl:
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 01:32:15 AM by Thorham »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: newb questions, hit the hardware or not?
« Reply #119 on: July 20, 2014, 07:40:46 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;769393
No, no, no, Thorham! You can't manage a large-scale project in assembler, therefore that doesn't exist!

It's a monolithic kernel and has little hardware support, yet it's taken 9 years. That sounds unmanageable to me, you seem to be confused between something being unmanageable and something existing. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just don't understand the meaning of words rather than trying to bend the meaning on purpose (if you want an analogy: unmanageable hair doesn't mean you're bald).
 
http://www.osnews.com/story/1385/Comparing-MenuetOS-SkyOS-and-AtheOS/
 
Quote from: LiveForIt;769394
The issue is that Amiga500 does not have lot RAM, there is space for pre fetching blocks.
Instead the disk has rotate to correct sector read a block discard the rest, rotate to next sector read a block and discard the rest.

trackdisk.device only ever reads and buffers whole tracks.
 
If you read the abacus chapter you'll see that the trackdisk in 1.2 doesn't use the word sync to find where the track starts, it reads more than a track worth and then uses the cpu to search through the result. I think they might have stopped doing that in release 2.
 
The disk format wasn't optimal for the hardware either. For reading it would make more sense if there was just one $4489 per track, this wouldn't affect writing as you have to write an entire track even if you have only modified one byte anyway. It looks like they wanted to allow sector writing because paula can search for the sync word when writing, but it doesn't have any way of checking which sector it would be writing to. My guess is the disk format was decided on and code hacked to work on the hardware that existed but nobody had time, or thought it would be a good idea, to go back and review the design after the hardware was finished.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 08:23:26 AM by psxphill »