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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: clusteruk on May 22, 2010, 08:47:57 AM
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The journey that started 18 months ago to create a next generation Amiga on commodity hardware has now reached its first major milestone by becoming a completely driver native Aros system powered by the energy efficient Intel Atom processor. This has been achieved with the supply of hardware and in some cases financial rewards. The plan with the following steps has been to create a base reference platform for Aros and the Amiga community to build on and support.
Step 1: Network driver development by Nick “Kalamatee” Andrews, free to all.
Step 2: HDAudio by Davy Wentzler owned by Cluster UK ltd, free to end users.
Step 3: Catweasel driver development for Aros by Ian Gledhill, free to all.
Step 4: Intel GMA device developed by Michal Schulz and again free to all.
This work would not have been possible without the amazing team of developers working on Aros whose names are long and well respected but room does not allow all their names to appear. Please visit Aros.org for more details. Also a notable mention must go to Paolo Besser and the IcAros distribution that is supplied with all iMica systems.
In between this work other developments have been supported, more news on these later. However, we have also been experimenting with hardware configurations for the best type of iMica system, but it has become clear that one thing was important to all; it must be SILENT.
So now we announce the final iMica Atom system that we believe will achieve all the needs of the Amiga and Aros fan using low cost commodity hardware in a small and SILENT package.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvXhCYdc3aM
This unit is not only power efficient and low cost, but can also be mounted behind the monitor to create a space efficient working area and no wires in front of the monitor when using a wireless keyboard and mouse. However, with its great looks and slim design it is doubtful you will want to hide it away.
This is not the end, this is just Stage 1.
Stage 2, optional case upgrade to hold, PCI Catweasel MK4, Slim DVD and Amiga/Mac/PC compatible floppy disk drive unit. This will be available to all iMica Atom customers.
Stage 3, Well we will tell you about that when we have something to show, but it will make the investment in the iMica Atom system a good investment, and might just inspire old Amiga users to get really excited about next generation Amiga’s including those with other Amiga OS flavours.
My thanks to all of the Aros and Amiga developers who have supported me over the last 18 months.
Stephen Jones
MD Cluster UK Software Ltd
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Interesting. How long before this is integrated into the nightly build system, or is it already? My Eee901 is choking on Windows' piggyness - maybe I'll switch it over to AROS.
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Sorry, I just can't get excited about a crappy Intel machine being passed off as Amiga.
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Guys I have a Lenovo S-10 E with Mac Os Snow Lepoard, Windows 7, and AROS. it rocks.
2.5 gigs of ram
!.6 atom cpu
320 gb hd
tocuhscreen mod
bluetooth
When someone makes a "actual Amiga" of equal or greater value for dollar... I'll be in there like swimwear. Until then I'm enojying my work commute and vlauable free time in style.
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Great news again and awesome video Steve!:) imagine if the Aros and AmigaOS camps were one!...if only that were part of the MAP
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How is the performance of an Atom compared to 1 core of a Core2duo?
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Awesome, Steve. Looks like I've got some drivers to download coming my way and you've got some donations coming your way from me. There may be hope for AROS yet. ;)
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Performance on a atom is a bit slower. Chugs a bit more if you're doing imageFX or prodctivity stuff but I use it for games. I use this as a ebook, movie, emulation station web browsing thingy.
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Thanks for nice comments
Atom has great uses but this is meant to be a silent machine with reasonable power so it cannot compete with a Core 2 Duo except for the fact that it is SILENT :-)
I have both fast and quiet.
As for Intel is evil, well good enough for 99% of the computing world and leaves me beer money.
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Actually, because of Crom00's post that the iMica drivers for sound are compatible with the drivers on his Lenovo, I got to thinking about my Lenovo SL-510. So, I just downloaded it and gave it a try. So far, works fine.
It also appears that the Intel GMA drivers will also be compatible with my Lenovo, so I can't wait to get my hands on those, as it will get me out of this stretched 1024x768 display and into a 1366x768 one.
You DEFINITELY got donations coming your way, Steve. :)
This also means that I now have both an iMica like Atom system as well as a Core2Duo one. Very nice. I'm actually getting excited for AROS. (And it's unusual for me to get excited by anything.) Excellent job, everyone!
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Oh, and while I'm thinking about it.
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How is the performance of an Atom compared to 1 core of a Core2duo?
An Atom is roughly clock for clock about as fast as a Pentium 3, so it's a little slower than a Pentium M at the same clock which is itself a little slower than a Core Solo, CoreDuo is two Core Solos and is slower than C2D by a reasonable margin (not to mention quite a bit hotter).
You're realisitically looking at around at less than a quarter of the speed of a C2D with an Atom. With the newer i3,i5 and i7 gear that performance gap is only going to increase.
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An Atom is roughly clock for clock about as fast as a Pentium 3, so it's a little slower than a Pentium M at the same clock which is itself a little slower than a Core Solo, CoreDuo is two Core Solos and is slower than C2D by a reasonable margin (not to mention quite a bit hotter).
You're realisitically looking at around at less than a quarter of the speed of a C2D with an Atom. With the newer i3,i5 and i7 gear that performance gap is only going to increase.
People seem to be missing the point. This 1.6 GHZ Atom-base Amiga-like unit costs $300USD. What you should be comparing it to is a SAM. It probably outperforms SAM and is 1/3 the cost too boot and is SILENT and has a nice case and mounts behind a monitor.
AresOne is the high-end machine. This is Imica.
Congrats to Stephen! Now if only SSD prices would drop. ;-)
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It also positions itself for thin client roles and POS machines as well, where a bazillion cores aren't necessary (i.e. into linux embedded territory). Interesting times!
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People seem to be missing the point.
No I'm well aware of the point thanks, I was simply asking a direct question with a (very rough) comparison between different processors.
This 1.6 GHZ Atom-base Amiga-like unit costs $300USD. What you should be comparing it to is a SAM. It probably outperforms SAM and is 1/3 the cost too boot and is SILENT and has a nice case and mounts behind a monitor.
I would imagine even with a GMA500 the graphics chip is far more capable as well, oh and it'll have working USB...
Does AROS have an integrated UAE type emulation layer like MorphOS or Amithlon?
Congrats to Stephen! Now if only SSD prices would drop. ;-)
Hear hear.
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Does AROS have an integrated UAE type emulation layer like MorphOS or Amithlon?
Just google "o1i" :)
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Just google "o1i" :)
Oh rock on!
Cheers Matt :)
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Sorry, I just can't get excited about a crappy Intel machine being passed off as Amiga.
Sorry, I just can't get excited about a total jackass being passed off as an Amiga user.
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Thread Title: "IMICA Atom becomes Aros fully native and celebrates in Silence"
Key word here is "Silence" which means:
Only people who like to adulterate already crappy HW to run a fake AmigaOS would like this, eventually there will be nothing left of the unique community that I love. I don't ever want to see x86 and AmigaOS in this way, e=verytime I do reminds me of the pollution of this community. Who, would want to help teh very company who killed the Amiga? I don't.
Also, to the mods who erased my gesture, you really are absentee most of the time, why, the finger doesn't even mean F-U in all cultures, whereas a$$, $hit,f#ck all mean the same no matter what way you spell it. It really isn't fair to give me an infraction at all.
@Kolla
Yay, you learned how to say "donkey" another way, lets applaud you shall we?
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@dreamcast270mhz
While one can respect your view, I really don't see much sense any longer to argue what is "fake" (or true) Amiga today.
And yes... "eventually there will be nothing left" of Amiga as we knew it decades ago. Instead different ideas of Amiga already coexist, since it is obvious that after so many years Amiga has different meaning to different Amiga users.
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I have been an aros user for sometime. For me, its not about x86 verses powerpc, but then again maybe it is sometimes.
For example, I can pick a 1-2ghz computer out of the trash, add an sblive, (15$), an fx550 or 650 video card (15$) and then run aros on it. The performance on even a 1ghz computer is definitly as good or better than any 700mhz power pc computer that costs about 1,000$ with amiga os4. 30$ verses 1000$ is quite a big difference.
There is also something I prefer about AROS- Its open. If you prefer amiga os4 or morphos thats fine, but don't trash aros and the people working to better it. AROS can never die, is not controlled by any one individual and
the community is really great. Just because you call it amiga os dosn't mean computers running it are the "real amiga" there is no such thing anymore...
Steven
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For me, if there was a future in PowerPC the I could see it. I agree. Even Apple who basically made the market for PPC is out of it. Intel didn't kill the Amiga, but they did do one thing, and they do it really really good, and that's manufacture really darn good processors, and for cheap too. If Motorola or IBM or AMD (who is just another flavor of x86) decided to take that processor tech further and get it cheap enough then thats one thing (OR Nvidia decides to cut Intel completely out and decides to manufacture whole processing solutions just using their GPUs...). Those are a lot of big "if's". MorphOS has the (now dwindling as well) PowerPC Mac market covered, and AROS is positioned to be running on all the rest of the worlds hardware. I'd rather Amiga continue somehow or someway. Heck, even Natami is an FPGA. :meh:
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Thread Title: "IMICA Atom becomes Aros fully native and celebrates in Silence"
Key word here is "Silence" which means:
Only people who like to adulterate already crappy HW to run a fake AmigaOS would like this,
Way to dismiss and belittle tens of thousands of hours of developers hard work in building a ground up opensource re-implimentation of the AmigaOS.
I would also point out that the hardware in question packs a bigger punch in every respect than a Sam440 and does so for around a third of the cost. Oh and its mass produced which means people buying into AROS won't have to silently pray to the gods of hardware that today isn't the day your system dies because there is no replacement.
eventually there will be nothing left of the unique community that I love.
Newsflash chum: AROS has been around for far longer than you have been around and will l(thanks to being OSS) be here long after the last A1 and Sam die of old age.
I don't ever want to see x86 and AmigaOS in this way, e=verytime I do reminds me of the pollution of this community. Who, would want to help teh very company who killed the Amiga? I don't.
Look, just because you get a hardon over ridiculously overpriced and underspecced niche hardware doesn't mean that the rest of us have to follow your fetish.
Oh and quit it with the hyperbole, the only company that killed Amiga was Commodore, but then again I've come to expect such nonsense historical revisionism from the new wave of name followers such as yourself.
Also, to the mods who erased my gesture, you really are absentee most of the time, why, the finger doesn't even mean F-U in all cultures, whereas a$$, $hit,f#ck all mean the same no matter what way you spell it. It really isn't fair to give me an infraction at all.
Oh don't play the innocent, you got an infraction and deserved it. Trying to wriggle out of it like this is just makes you look even more pathetic. I would also suggest that the reason for the infraction was precisely because your posts were belittling the efforts of people who actually know their stuff and are actively trying to improve support for the platform as a whole, even if you don't happen to agree with the direction of this fork.
@Kolla
Yay, you learned how to say "donkey" another way, lets applaud you shall we?
Yes, lets, because it was also well earned, so here you are Kolla:
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a314/insomnianiac/jollygoodshow.gif)
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I hope aros can successfully replace amithlon.
Being able to turn you computer on and not need win,linux,etc to run emulation is fine by me. Aros is basically that way but has more amiga feel to it.
Msoft will one day drop support for win7 but aros can continue chugging along.
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I think Aros is fantastic after using it for awhile you really feel like you came "home" again.
Congrats to steve for getting all the drivers and making this work. Once I can afford to buy a catweasel, my aros machine will be the ng amiga of my dreams. I can't wait to see how awesome aros will be in a few more years of development. Alot is happening with it lately.
Steven
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@dreamcast270mhz
I am not trying to replace the Amiga, I am not sure what Amiga you refer to, I own the only real Amiga which had its name changed to the A1000, and it is my greatest possession. I also own A1200, A3000, A4000 and they are all fantastic evolution of the species that starts with the A1000.
For me, I skipped the non chipset ppc based Amigas for a lot of reasons but nothing to do with how good or bad they are, I just left the scene after Gateway fiasco and Gateway wiping my company out with the PCI Amiga and siamese system, a project that was to take Amiga to x86 in late 90's.
How you define Amiga is personal, to some it is the wonderful chipset, watch my videos and be amazed at what my 25 year old Amiga 100 can do and to others the OS, and some to both. In my case it was both but I can no longer have the chipset unless Natami is succesful. So I am working with others to get Aros supported on low cost hardware, iMica and later, Super High performance hardware that will give us all cause to re-evaluate the Amiga in the next decade.
The key thing is Aros is not owned by anybody and will last forever just improving bit by bit.
My IMICA is not driven by a need for sales, I hope people buy it, but it is a base reference platform for developers to build on for the future, and because drivers are free anybody can build one or buy a supported Aros netbook for around (150-200 euros) something that is eluding ppc AmigaOS camp for now. Also serious users can buy later generation hardware as it suits there needs. However, trust me, I am in for the long term here. It is an all consuming hobby and now this step in project is complete I am moving onto next stage.
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Variety is the spice of life.
I have several classics (real and emulated), an OS4.1.2 A1 box and a spare PC for running AROS on (presently in bits). The only thing I'm lacking is a MorphOS box. Much as I like the fact they have opened up the ppc mac market, the specification of the ppc mac mini (in particular the video hardware) doesn't enthrall me. If/when more generic G4 boxes with graphics card slots are supported I'll get one.
All assuming I still have a job next month :-/
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Oh rock on!
Cheers Matt :)
;) x
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Only people who like to adulterate already crappy HW to run a fake AmigaOS would like this, eventually there will be nothing left of the unique community that I love. I don't ever want to see x86 and AmigaOS in this way, e=verytime I do reminds me of the pollution of this community. Who, would want to help teh very company who killed the Amiga? I don't.
Tell me the truth: somewhere at home, you have a picture of yourself that becomes clever with time.
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@dreamcast270mhz
While one can respect your view, I really don't see much sense any longer to argue what is "fake" (or true) Amiga today.
I can't respect his view. He comes in here and pisses on everyone's cornflakes and then gets mad when people piss back. Who can respect that?
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I can't respect his view. He comes in here and pisses on everyone's cornflakes and then gets mad when people piss back. Who can respect that?
:roflmao: What an expression...
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Thanks for nice comments
How is SDL for AROS? I'm have a few SDL projects I could port. I might invest some time and try to set up a tool chain if the pieces exist out there.
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How is SDL for AROS? I'm have a few SDL projects I could port. I might invest some time and try to set up a tool chain if the pieces exist out there.
We have available SDL 1.2.11, SDL_gfx 2.0.18, SDL_image 1.2.3, SDL_mixer 1.2.5, SDL_net 1.2.7 and SDL_sound 1.0.3
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the unique community that I love
Unrequited!
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since when did amiga become about exclusion ?
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I can't respect his view. He comes in here and pisses on everyone's cornflakes and then gets mad when people piss back. Who can respect that?
@EDanaII
One can respect your view as well... ;)
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since when did amiga become about exclusion ?
Since the latest batch of mindless namefollowing BAFs appeared on the scene.
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since the latest batch of mindless namefollowing bafs appeared on the scene.
baf ?
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baf ?
You don't want to know. Lets just say that its a not nice way of referring the more fundamentalist set within the community.
--edit--
Meh, sod it, if I get infracted I get infracted..
BAF = Blind Amiga Fanatic
Although I've read other, harsher (and likely TOS breaking) variations on this theme.
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Way to dismiss and belittle tens of thousands of hours of developers hard work in building a ground up opensource re-implimentation of the AmigaOS.
Except its not. There is not a single line of AmigaOS code in it, nor is it compatible with any Amiga hardware
I would also point out that the hardware in question packs a bigger punch in every respect than a Sam440 and does so for around a third of the cost. Oh and its mass produced which means people buying into AROS won't have to silently pray to the gods of hardware that today isn't the day your system dies because there is no replacement.
So what? It won't run anything written for AmigaOS 4 and above, and it can't run Amiga OS 3.x software natively. As a fun PC OS its OK, and congratulations to those who developed it and provide NW for it, but an Amiga it is not.
Newsflash chum: AROS has been around for far longer than you have been around and will l(thanks to being OSS) be here long after the last A1 and Sam die of old age.
And?
Look, just because you get a hardon over ridiculously overpriced and underspecced niche hardware doesn't mean that the rest of us have to follow your fetish.
And just beacsue you get a hard on about open-source x86 PC OS's that say they are built in the spirit of Amiga, but run no Amiga software except under certain circumstance, doesn't mean that anyone has to follow yours.
Oh and quit it with the hyperbole, the only company that killed Amiga was Commodore, but then again I've come to expect such nonsense historical revisionism from the new wave of name followers such as yourself.
Yep. It was Commodore and Nothing else to it. FMD.
Oh don't play the innocent, you got an infraction and deserved it. Trying to wriggle out of it like this is just makes you look even more pathetic. I would also suggest that the reason for the infraction was precisely because your posts were belittling the efforts of people who actually know their stuff and are actively trying to improve support for the platform as a whole, even if you don't happen to agree with the direction of this fork.
No the reason is that this place has turned into a place where anything goes:
1. if a handful of the more frequent visitors agree with you.
2. its OK for the said handful to belittle, insult (words like pathetic, deluded, dense) if you don't agree with their POV
3. if you are a mod.
And what f'en fork are you talking about. AROS is not a fork of AmigaOS.
dreamcast270mhz: where you went wrong is that you expressed an opinion that didn't agree with the majority one here. In future refrain from having an opinion and just say you like "whatever anyone else likes"
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Well it does say Aros, IMICA and Atom in the thread title, so if you come in this thread complaining it isn't OCS/ECS/AGA hardware or Amiga OS4 etc etc then what was the point?
I can understand some people want to run Aros, and not via Linux, OSX or Windows, that's just the great thing about freedom of choice. And all this team are doing is trying to give you a reference hardware platform you can buy and a native version of Aros to run on it.
I don't personally consider this a replacement to a piece of Amiga hardware, Amiga died with CD32/A1200/A4000 Far East/UK production plants closing in the mid 90s. However nobody is claiming it is anyway.
Imica via netbook or ultra portable desktop hardware, isn't really a 'next generation Amiga' though but a reference ready to rock piece of hardware to run Aros natively. Probably best to call it an Aros PC or something. My $0.02 worth :)
Hope it goes well for the team involved.
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Except its not. There is not a single line of AmigaOS code in it, nor is it compatible with any Amiga hardware
Which part of Open Source re-implementation are you having trouble with? I should also point out that there was quite a bit of AROS code in AOS 3.5 and 3.9, so even that statement isn't true.
So what? It won't run anything written for AmigaOS 4 and above, and it can't run Amiga OS 3.x software natively. As a fun PC OS its OK, and congratulations to those who developed it and provide NW for it, but an Amiga it is not.
Google "o1i"
AROS is AmigaOS API compatible and will run AmigaOS software if recompiled for it. o1i will (eventually) enable it to run AOS apps natively ala Amithlon/MorphOS. In the mean time I believe there is a port of UAE available for AROS.
It probably never will run OS4 apps using an emulation layer but tbh I really can't help but think that that is a good thing - too much in OS4 feedback I see on various boards comes back as hinky.
And just beacsue you get a hard on about open-source x86 PC OS's
See, this is what I love about you BAFs - you assume that the rest of the world must have some comparable fetish for their given point of view.
I'll state again what I've said to several of your mouthbreathing comrades:
I do not give a toss what platform I am using so long as it provides me with the tools I want and need to do the things I do day to day. The underlying hardware platform is equally unimportant so long as it provides the appropriate performance for the tasks at hand and does so at a reasonable cost.
Read and understand.
No the reason is that this place has turned into a place where anything goes:
1. if a handful of the more frequent visitors agree with you.
Or you could oh, I don't know, back up your claims with facts. That tends to go down nicely around here. Watch anyone make a blatantly incorrect statement and see them get corrected, then shot down if they ignore the correction and carry on - regardless of how popular you are(n't).
2. its OK for the said handful to belittle, insult (words like pathetic, deluded, dense) if you don't agree with their POV
What, you mean like you do regularly when faced with anyone who doesn't slavishly follow your views on teh oNe TrU CoMputAr?
3. if you are a mod.
That's a delicious line in BAWWWWing you have there.
And what f'en fork are you talking about. AROS is not a fork of AmigaOS.
Its a fork in the community.
dreamcast270mhz: where you went wrong is that you expressed an opinion that didn't agree with the majority one here. In future refrain from having an opinion and just say you like "whatever anyone else likes"
Grow up.
Where he went wrong was in belittling (intentionally or not) the efforts of people who have poured tens of thousands of man hours into this project (which itself had parts of it put in both AOS and MorphOS) without any provocation or reason - no other reason.
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Well it does say Aros, IMICA and Atom in the thread title, so if you come in this thread complaining it isn't OCS/ECS/AGA hardware or Amiga OS4 etc etc then what was the point?
Its pretty much the same reason that any amiga video on youtube will attract a bunch of wankers going "can it play crysis!!!??? LOL!!!"
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Well it does say Aros, IMICA and Atom in the thread title, so if you come in this thread complaining it isn't OCS/ECS/AGA hardware or Amiga OS4 etc etc then what was the point?
I do believe we have a winner gentlemen.
$0.02 well spent, sir.
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Its pretty much the same reason that any amiga video on youtube will attract a bunch of wankers going "can it play crysis!!!??? LOL!!!"
Welcome to the internet, where trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls is a way of life.
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Crysis was boring anyway, except for mowing down palm trees...and FTR, there wasn't much of ANYTHING hardware wise that would run Crysis nicely when it first came out :)
Oh, and the main reason for me posting was to ask what a "BAF" was :lol:
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Which part of Open Source re-implementation are you having trouble with? I should also point out that there was quite a bit of AROS code in AOS 3.5 and 3.9, so even that statement isn't true.
The bit where NONE of AmigaOS is re-iplemented. Its an x86 OS that aims to run in the spirit of Amiga, whatever that is.
Which part of AROS was in 3.5 and 3.9? how sign ificant is that to the look and feel of AmigOS?
Google "o1i"
AROS is AmigaOS API compatible and will run AmigaOS software if recompiled for it. o1i will (eventually) enable it to run AOS apps natively ala Amithlon/MorphOS. In the mean time I believe there is a port of UAE available for AROS.
"natively"=68ki run under a 68 k processor. Anything else is a form of emulation, via translation/transcription, and there isn't a single emulator anywhere for any platform that I've used that doesn't lose "something in the translation".
See, this is what I love about you BAFs - you assume that the rest of the world must have some comparable fetish for their given point of view.
I'll state again what I've said to several of your mouthbreathing comrades:
I do not give a toss what platform I am using so long as it provides me with the tools I want and need to do the things I do day to day. The underlying hardware platform is equally unimportant so long as it provides the appropriate performance for the tasks at hand and does so at a reasonable cost.
Read and understand.
No you do. Most of the above is besides the point. Here I'll dumb it down for you. I don't particularly care for your opinion, but I'll respect that you are entitled to express that opinion free from any fear of ridicule, abuse or belittlement. Unlike most of your posts which come across as condescending smart-arse hollier than hour drivel. If you're happy with a pragmatic near enough approach, fine. Not everyone is.
Or you could oh, I don't know, back up your claims with facts. That tends to go down nicely around here. Watch anyone make a blatantly incorrect statement and see them get corrected, then shot down if they ignore the correction and carry on - regardless of how popular you are(n't).
Correction of what? For having an opinion? How can you correct an opinion. FFS?
What, you mean like you do regularly when faced with anyone who doesn't slavishly follow your views on teh oNe TrU CoMputAr?
As opposed to slavishly following yours that near is good enough if its cheap enough and accessible enough? For some, there is nothing like the real thing. I respect that. For others who are more pragmatic, AROS and some form emulation/compatibility layer is what they are after, well and good. There's a big difference in the way they OP responded to the criticims with articulate, respectful comments and they way you and the other dude did with references about pissing in cornflakes did.
Where he went wrong was in belittling (intentionally or not) the efforts of people who have poured tens of thousands of man hours into this project (which itself had parts of it put in both AOS and MorphOS) without any provocation or reason - no other reason.
whatever.
AROS is an exceptional effort to create an x86 OS that aims to provide some of the feel of Amiga and the approximate running of Amiga 3.x software. An amiga it aint.
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The bit where NONE of AmigaOS is re-iplemented.
Right, so there is absolutely no API compatibility at all with AmigaOS at all then... If you say so. You might want to explain that to the AROS folks, because they seem to be under the mistaken impression that that's what they've been working toward pretty much since the death of C=.
Thank goodness you and your single semester of programming gave you the expertise to spot this gaping flaw in their work!
Its an x86 OS that aims to run in the spirit of Amiga, whatever that is.
It's an API compatible (and soon a binary compatible) re-implimentation of AmigaOS. Just as much as the Natami/Minimig are re-implimentations of the hardware.
"natively"=68ki run under a 68 k processor. Anything else is a form of emulation,
Oh I do believe he's getting the hint!
No you do.
Prove it.
Most of the above is besides the point. Here I'll dumb it down for you. I don't particularly care for your opinion, but I'll respect that you are entitled to express that opinion free from any fear of ridicule, abuse or belittlement
Lies.
Unlike most of your posts which come across as condescending smart-arse hollier than thou drivel.
Projection much?
As opposed to slavishly following yours
Nope. If you want to follow the one true path that's fantastic. But slamming the hard work of others is not on.
There's a big difference in the way they OP responded to the criticims with articulate, respectful comments and they way you and the other dude did with references about pissing in cornflakes did.
There is indeed, ours were funnier.
An amiga it aint.
In your opinion.
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Does AROS have an integrated UAE type emulation layer like MorphOS or Amithlon?
No.
In fact the two similar options you present are different already:
MorphOS - no chipset emulation, custom powerpc JIT, 68k apps run inside the powerpc OS, taking advantage of the native OS routines, 68k apps are just like any other applications. 68k apps have access to the native system resources such as 3d acceleration. MorphOS 68k emulation has nothing to do with UAE.
Amithlon - stripped down UAE sitting on top of linux kernel, has a fast JIT engine AFAIK only partially based on the UAE one, limited HW emulation, there is a way to call native x86 routines. 68k apps have access to the bare HW here as well.
As far as I know AROS is opting for UAE integration: Running a stock UAE, sharing clipboard, filesystems etc. Much like what you have with VMWare where you can access the host system resources (note: vmware is used here only as a reference to how the host environment can be accessed).
The obvious plus here is that it will run pretty much anything UAE does. Downside is that it will be a pain to integrate it anywhere near as good as MorphOS or Amithlon. For instance it will be hard to make the 68k apps not look out of place (Preferences are hard to propagate etc). The biggest problem probably is that it requires a legal copy of the AmigaOS to be able to run anything (There have been talks about using AROS 68k as a AmigaOS replacement, but as far as I can tell that plan hasn't advanced).
Speaking of which, is there "Unity" mode in the AROS UAE integration yet?
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As far as I know AROS is opting for UAE integration:
Did you check out the o1i or is that something different again?
Speaking of which, is there "Unity" mode in the AROS UAE integration yet?
?
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The bit where NONE of AmigaOS is re-iplemented. Its an x86 OS that aims to run in the spirit of Amiga, whatever that is.
Well, that's weird, seeing as I was able to compile some of my old amigaos specific code for AROS. That doesn't require an OS "in the spirit" of Amiga, it requires an OS that provides amiga compatible APIs. Do you understand the meaning of "re-implemented" in this context?
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Did you check out the o1i or is that something different again?
Well I assume o1i's stuff is the UAE integration?
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I'm referring to mode similar to VMWare Unity.
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@stefcep2
Do you ignore all of Bernd's AfA news posts? Where he compiles parts of AROS to replace parts of AmigaOS on 68k hardware?
The AROS developers take great pains to ensure that when compiled for the 68k CPU AROS is binary compatible with AmigaOS... Try can only do this because AROS is an OS that reimplements all of AmigaOS's features and structures. This is exactly the same as MOS and AOS4, except they (AFAIK) only compile for the PPC, AROS an compile on multiple architectures.
@Piru AROS's UAE integration features a Unity mode (that is kind of the point), bit the idea is that we can get it much tighter as AROS and AmigaOS are so similar and we can modify both UAE and AROS to work together... End result, 68k apps running seamlessly in a x86/PPC AROS environment :)
Please spend more time on the AROS Dev list, there are people working on a complete Amiga port of AROS, I'm sure you could offer advice ;)
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AROS's UAE integration features a Unity mode (that is kind of the point)
Why there are no screenshots of it? All I've seen is the whole emulation running in a window, just like regular UAE.
Please spend more time on the AROS Dev list, there are people working on a complete Amiga port of AROS, I'm sure you could offer advice ;)
Sorry I'm busy enough already, which reminds me I should finish a report today...
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Why there are no screenshots of it? All I've seen is the whole emulation running in a window, just like regular UAE.
Sorry I'm busy enough already, which reminds me I should finish a report today...
If you follow O1i's blog he posts nothing but screenshots of his work on this... :)
I know you that's why I suggested you perhaps give advice rather than get stuck in ;)
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Two things:
First a video showing Janus UAE Coherance mode at the end of it old v0.6, not the latest v0.7.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTaZCNOvCnE
Oh and my new hero developing from scratch an Aros version of 68k emulation layer like in OS4 and MorphOS. Some way off but working already with the 68k clock and showing tons of promise.
http://emumiga.com/
Enjoy
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Oh and my new hero developing from scratch an Aros version of 68k emulation layer like in OS4 and MorphOS. Some way off but working already with the 68k clock and showing tons of promise.
http://emumiga.com/
Well this is a turn up for the books! Looks very exciting, for those who didn't click the link, this is the same 68k type of emulation that MOS and AOS4 use :)
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Well this is a turn up for the books! Looks very exciting, for those who didn't click the link, this is the same 68k type of emulation that MOS and AOS4 use :)
Yeah this looks very promising. There's one difference to MorphOS at least: With MorphOS there's no need for virtual address space and mapping to the OS structures and calls. MorphOS is compatible enough so that only 68k emulation is needed.
This is very interesting and important project. I'd even consider this more important than Janus UAE (since there's no need to (C) Kickstart ROM or Workbench files, and the 68k applications benefiting from the native libraries and system components).
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Yeah this looks very promising. There's one difference to MorphOS at least: With MorphOS there's no need for virtual address space and mapping to the OS structures and calls. MorphOS is compatible enough so that only 68k emulation is needed.
This is very interesting and important project. I'd even consider this more important than Janus UAE (since there's no need to (C) Kickstart ROM or Workbench files, and the 68k applications benefiting from the native libraries and system components).
Well the big problem AROS has is in the byte order (as you are probably aware), so this is the best option :)
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Which part of AROS was in 3.5 and 3.9? how sign ificant is that to the look and feel of AmigOS?
It wasn't much, IIRC, it was the color wheel. Now MOS used a fair amount of AROS code in it's initial release. IIRC from the court papers, I don't think much or any kickstart or WB 3.x code made it into OS4 because it was machine 68K code.
I will point out AROS was released on the SAM440 before OS4 was. And I'm fairly confident you will see AROS released for EFIKA-MX based systems which I would hope by this year. And as others in this thread have mentioned AFA code is from AROS. So painting AROS as x86 is not completely true as there are PPC and eventually ARM port in the wild.
I do understand your concern for your favorite camp, AROS does make it harder for them to pitch very expensive hardware. Vs buying fairly cheap hardware that does more for the bang:buck ratio with portables on the way. Then the issue if Commodore USA ever clears up the trademark issue with the C= trademark owners, selling x86 gear running AROS with C= logo will make it known to the larger market place. Natami ever sees the light of day and runs AROS on it, it'll be even harder to sell 1500+ Euro PPC systems.
@ Steve, gratz on this release of a silent IMACA.
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Now MOS used a fair amount of AROS code in it's initial release.
Would be nice if it could be more the other way around as well, and I don't mean Ambient. For example I think that a common shell/CLI would benefit everyone, so that simple scripts work alike across the different systems. AROS is lacking alot in its shell, and what is the point in duplicating the effort, and eventually end up with something that is almost the same, but with slightly different behaviour?
And no, I don't mean the console handler :hammer:
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Would be nice if it could be more the other way around as well, and I don't mean Ambient. For example I think that a common shell/CLI would benefit everyone, so that simple scripts work alike across the different systems. AROS is lacking alot in its shell, and what is the point in duplicating the effort, and eventually end up with something that is almost the same, but with slightly different behaviour?
And no, I don't mean the console handler :hammer:
To be fair the MOS team returned a lot of bug fixed code, the process has been very beneficial for both AROS and MOS
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To be fair the MOS team returned a lot of bug fixed code, the process has been very beneficial for both AROS and MOS
Yes, ofcourse. But that was code originating from AROS that was brought to MorphOS and in the process bug fixed, and fixes submitted back to AROS. Are there examples of code originating from MorphOS being brought to AROS?
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I do understand your concern for your favorite camp, AROS does make it harder for them to pitch very expensive hardware. Vs buying fairly cheap hardware that does more for the bang:buck ratio with portables on the way. Then the issue if Commodore USA ever clears up the trademark issue with the C= trademark owners, selling x86 gear running AROS with C= logo will make it known to the larger market place. Natami ever sees the light of day and runs AROS on it, it'll be even harder to sell 1500+ Euro PPC systems.
Actually I don't have any preference re: AROS v Efika V Morphos v SAM v OS 4. AmigaOS 3.x (3.1 at that) is more than adequate for my needs running on my classic A4000 68060, running my original classic hardware. And judging from what people are willing to pay for classic hardware I'd thats the situation with many others still using anything Amiga.
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Yes, ofcourse. But that was code originating from AROS that was brought to MorphOS and in the process bug fixed, and fixes submitted back to AROS. Are there examples of code originating from MorphOS being brought to AROS?
Now that would be appreciated, and I accept your points on the shell. It works ok but needs some love.
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Well, that's weird, seeing as I was able to compile some of my old amigaos specific code for AROS. That doesn't require an OS "in the spirit" of Amiga, it requires an OS that provides amiga compatible APIs. Do you understand the meaning of "re-implemented" in this context?
OK when you recompile Dpaint, Scala, Brillliance, Lightwave, Cinema 4d, Wordworth 7 for AROS, let me know and I'll jump on board.
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OK when you recompile Dpaint, Scala, Brillliance, Lightwave, Cinema 4d, Wordworth 7 for AROS, let me know and I'll jump on board.
Please read up about this stuff, these are exactly the programs that AROS can run using the Janus emulation, and in the cause of non harwear hitting apps, like Lightwave, then the Emu that Steve has just pointed to :)
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Do not feed the trolls :)
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OK when you recompile Dpaint, Scala, Brillliance, Lightwave, Cinema 4d, Wordworth 7 for AROS, let me know and I'll jump on board.
You have a reasonable point here, at the moment Aros cannot just launch all Amiga apps and run them seamlessly. Either they go through JanusUAE and coherance mode that will run the application through emulation or if system friendly apps then the Emumiga will one day be able to run them seamlessly.
However, I believe the same is true with AmigaOS and MorphOS, however, there 68k emulation and integration layer is way more advanced than in Aros. So most applications can be run through the integration layer which is very impressive but in all fairness I believe it is easier with a PPC, I could be wrong. I will say that both AmigaOS and MorphOS also have to resort to UAE just less often.
However, one day in the not too distant future Aros will be at the same point as the other two fine OS's. I hope when that day comes you will join us as a user.
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OK when you recompile Dpaint, Scala, Brillliance, Lightwave, Cinema 4d, Wordworth 7 for AROS, let me know and I'll jump on board.
With all due respect, if you could get the source code for these applications I would be surprised if you could recompile them on AmigaOS4 or MorphOS. I may be wrong but I truly doubt it.
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Please read up about this stuff, these are exactly the programs that AROS can run using the Janus emulation, and in the cause of non harwear hitting apps, like Lightwave, then the Emu that Steve has just pointed to :)
So can Winuae. Its just emulation. Lightwave hits the hardware,as do DPaint, Brilliance and Scala.
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If dpaint hits the hardware how does it work through RTG ?
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If dpaint hits the hardware how does it work through RTG ?
Interesting, I never managed to get DPaint to run with an RTG mode, always went belly up if you select one.
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If dpaint hits the hardware how does it work through RTG ?
It works badly.
Personal Paint is different.
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Interesting, I never managed to get DPaint to run with an RTG mode, always went belly up if you select one.
exactly.
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Might be getting confused between that and Dpaint. been so long since I have used my miggy.
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For the final time, the IMICA is an overpriced machine, (I can make one for less than what they sell for) the way clusteruk worded his post was promoting it as the next Amiga. The reason AROS is wasting time is:
1. They are using linux as a base, then popping APIs on top of it, making a WB lookalike that is analogous to linux w/ WINE. They will never capture the Amiga experience as it is in MOS or AmigaOS.
2. They have made less progress than either OS4 or MOS in the same amount of time.
But I applaud their progress thus far, they are promising, but they before long will hit a wall.
In it all, I have discovered that no Amiga user needs an Intel, you just need a G4 Mac for MOS and OS X (for modern Apps), Classic Amigas for Classic AOS and a 360 for all the new video games, you get all the benefits of Intel, minus Intel, at the same cost or less.
@leander
Ha, the applaud was funny I admit, but really, Kolla needs to learn that throwing around curses will only piss people off, sadly, he is just like Lennie.
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Oh, look - the clueless git is back! :banana:
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I just think that Aros is quickly becoming a viable platform for those that want to run an Amiga like operating system without breaking the bank.
All Amiga applications run through the janus emulation, and with coherance it appears more seamless being able to launch an application from the Aros file system 68k app icon and a more elegant solution is in the works with Emumiga
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@dreamcast270mhz
IMICA is not a true Amiga just like the latest PPC offerings are in no way a true Amiga for me. But they are all a step on the road to a true next generation Amiga. The X1000 is a good step on the road also, and too the Natami for me looks amazing and I am a fan.
But I am thinking ahead and to do this I need the basics in place. IMICA is a first step on a journey to something special I hope.
Oh yes, and we DO NOT sit on Linux.
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Just in case anyone else is having dificulty; AROS has NOTHING to do with Linux... You can run AROS on top of Linux to aid debugging and development.
But AROS has nothing to do with Linux, it is an Operating sytem in its own right. Is everyone clear about that now? :-?
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1. They are using linux as a base, then popping APIs on top of it, making a WB lookalike that is analogous to linux w/ WINE. They will never capture the Amiga experience as it is in MOS or AmigaOS.
That was the old Anubis-OS project, not AROS.
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For the final time, the IMICA is an overpriced machine, (I can make one for less than what they sell for) the way clusteruk worded his post was promoting it as the next Amiga. The reason AROS is wasting time is:
1. They are using linux as a base, then popping APIs on top of it, making a WB lookalike that is analogous to linux w/ WINE. They will never capture the Amiga experience as it is in MOS or AmigaOS.
2. They have made less progress than either OS4 or MOS in the same amount of time.
But I applaud their progress thus far, they are promising, but they before long will hit a wall.
In it all, I have discovered that no Amiga user needs an Intel, you just need a G4 Mac for MOS and OS X (for modern Apps), Classic Amigas for Classic AOS and a 360 for all the new video games, you get all the benefits of Intel, minus Intel, at the same cost or less.
@leander
Ha, the applaud was funny I admit, but really, Kolla needs to learn that throwing around curses will only piss people off, sadly, he is just like Lennie.
Sorry I would never normally go for what be classes as personal attack, but. If you are going to post please check your facts first. Otherwise just makes you look like the cock that I suspect you are.
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I tried DPaint V on MorphOS long ago and it ran just fine. Old versions wont run.
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Well the big problem AROS has is in the byte order (as you are probably aware), so this is the best option :)
Not only the byte order but also the size of certain C types and the packing of C structs. This makes the integration layer more involved than on PPC MorphOS and AOS4. Some people advocated to change the native i386 endianess like amithlon did but majority decided to not reduce the native x86 performance for better m68k software integration.
I am still sceptical that emumiga will always be able to guess the translation of C structs between the two worlds (m68k and x86/AMD64/...) without knowing it at emumiga compile time. But I have been proven wrong in the past.
greets,
Staf.
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All Amiga applications run through the janus emulation, and with coherance it appears more seamless being able to launch an application from the Aros file system 68k app icon and a more elegant solution is in the works with Emumiga
Emu Amiga looks interesting. I wonder how complex applications that use 3rd party libraries and MCCs will perform.
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Emu Amiga looks interesting. I wonder how complex applications that use 3rd party libraries and MCCs will perform.
Time will tell, but this will be a while in the making. However, Moggen is about to open the source so others can help once the fundamentals are in place.
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@clusteruk
perhaps there's some way to "automate" the process for identical functions/structs making some auto-code generation reading OS3 and AROS includes and OS3 FD files.
It may be a wise idea that they left the structs&function offsets in separate files so the user can add later new libraries support without recompiling.
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wait, so how the hell is Morph OS "amiga" when AROS isn't ?
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I tried DPaint V on MorphOS long ago and it ran just fine. Old versions wont run.
Have you tried DPaint IV? It works in OS3.x (I'm sure I got 256 color RTG modes working before but don't quote me) and hence OS4. I would be surprised if it didn't work in MOS.
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We have available SDL 1.2.11, SDL_gfx 2.0.18, SDL_image 1.2.3, SDL_mixer 1.2.5, SDL_net 1.2.7 and SDL_sound 1.0.3
Wow. I made a bootable AROS USB stick and copied dev stuff from an icAros Live over to it.
Threw together a make file and I was drawing on the screen in a few minutes. I didn't realize there were so many dev tools. I have no sound so couldn't test that, but I mostly use gfx/image/mixer/and ttf looks like it is there too!
Pretty awesome. Native AROS is SO responsive it's almost feels strange.
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I don't have to address all the wrong points because you obviously can't read or you wouldn't keep making incorrect statements and saying wild stupid things. You obviously haven't even read about aros at all from the ridiculous statements you are making.
"1. They are using linux as a base, then popping APIs on top of it, making a WB lookalike that is analogous to linux w/ WINE. They will never capture the Amiga experience as it is in MOS or AmigaOS. "
Aros can run windows hosted, linux hosted, or native. It is not based on linux, though it can run under linux or linux hosted.
Steven
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The reason AROS is wasting time is:
1. They are using linux as a base, then popping APIs on top of it, making a WB lookalike that is analogous to linux w/ WINE. They will never capture the Amiga experience as it is in MOS or AmigaOS.
Ok, I'm taking off the moderator hat for this one. This has to be said:
Go away and come back once you've gotten at least half a clue what you are talking about.
AROS is not linux, it is an OS built from the ground up to be source level compatible with OS3.1. Thanks to virtualisation, it can run hosted on linux, if that's what you want to do.
You are either just trolling or you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
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Have you tried DPaint IV? It works in OS3.x (I'm sure I got 256 color RTG modes working before but don't quote me) and hence OS4. I would be surprised if it didn't work in MOS.
I think DPaint V was the first to use Screen Modes from the OS display mode database, thus would accept RTG screen modes... But it was totally flaky on the Chunky modes... :(
AROS does have Überpaint, which is a lovely DPaint clone :)
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@bloodline
DPaint IV still works in OS4.1, I was messing with it last night (well, I was able to start it and load a picture, hardly an exhaustive test).
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@bloodline
DPaint IV still works in OS4.1, I was messing with it last night (well, I was able to start it and load a picture, hardly an exhaustive test).
I'll have to have another try later... :)
You know, I still have my DPaint 2 disk here :-D
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I'll have to have another try later... :)
You know, I still have my DPaint 2 disk here :-D
These old OS4 screenshots (bad tv tuner card) might amuse you:
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3135 (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3135)
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3136 (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3136)
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The next big thing - no not broadway - just watch the first video http://www.aros-broadway.de/page1/page1.html
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Ok, I'm taking off the moderator hat for this one..
Well put the hat back on and moderate this:
"I suspect you must be retarded or mentally challenged".
Or is that OK because you don't agree with dreamcast's post however factually wron or right it might be. This has to be said also.
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@bloodline
DPaint IV still works in OS4.1, I was messing with it last night (well, I was able to start it and load a picture, hardly an exhaustive test).
Even in 3.1 under cybergraphx its hit and miss. Try animating-which is where DPAint shines, and it fails every time.
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Well put the hat back on and moderate this:
"I suspect you must be retarded or mentally challenged".
Or is that OK because you don't agree with dreamcast's post however factually wron or right it might be. This has to be said also.
Did you actually report the post in question, or just assume I'd read it? Or is OK to insinuate that I think it's fair game for someone to throw personal insults at someone else I've disagreed with?
Not wise to assume I've read an entire thread from top to bottom simply because I've singled out a post full of nonsense.
If you see a post that breaks the TOS, just report it.
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Are there examples of code originating from MorphOS being brought to AROS?
Considering such code doesn't fall into APL I very much doubt it. Obviously if some code falls into other non-restrictive licenses then it might end up into AROS.
I'm not going to open up shell, sorry.
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I think DPaint V was the first to use Screen Modes from the OS display mode database, thus would accept RTG screen modes... But it was totally flaky on the Chunky modes... :(
AROS does have Überpaint, which is a lovely DPaint clone :)
Was Dpaint V Iwas thinmking about. I thopuight my memory not that stuffed yet. Defo remembered selecting screenmodes and my bvison modes being shown.
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Strepthroat or whatever and dreamcast4mhz have been talking rot in several threads recently. I suspect I am not alone in wishing they would go and be rabid and totally wrong about most things on some other site.
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I love how aros has developed the moment i tried the latest live cd i got the feel of the amiga at the moment i only have one of my amiga,s left i sold all the rest a long time ago the amiga i have left is an a500 built out of parts i think it would be great to strip the case out and rebuild it as an iMica Atom based machine runing aros.