Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => MorphOS => MorphOS -- Development Support => Topic started by: dandelion on September 27, 2014, 02:28:03 PM
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Hi all,
I'm a long time geek, long time minority operating enthusiast, and recent convert to the idea that maybe working in the IT industry might be a good option. I mean, I love computers, I love to learn, I love to keep learning, and the money's good! That's my logic!
I've been dabbling in Python and R - have written some machine learning script stuff via a data science course for some massive datasets. Sort of excited about this, but really like the idea of developing deep mastery of applications/OS programming.
As an Amiga/minority OS geek - would MorphOS/AmigaOS provide a useful platform to hone my development skills? Is C++ still worth learning? Would I spend most of my time mastering the MorphOS API instead of learning industry-relevant Linux/Windows APIs? Or is the API issue small fry compared to understanding how C++ works?
You see, I'm thinking this might provide a nice additional motivation boost to learn to code. On the other hand, the thought of spending lots of time learning the MUI API might be a bit de-motivating, knowing it won't be directly benefiting my CV (probably even something to keep quiet about!)
Any thoughts, advice greatly appreciated!
ps. In the very short term, I need to get paid. What's the best way to start earning money with a very slender IT-specific CV? (I have a biochem PhD, teaching qualifications - but my relevant IT stuff is at best 6 months old, and most employers are slightly dubious). Software testing? But even here experience is required! Aghh!
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really like the idea of developing deep mastery of applications/OS programming.
When you've only just started programming, then you're looking at several years to master it. There's way around this.
Is C++ still worth learning?
You have to start somewhere, and learning C++ is certainly useful.
Would I spend most of my time mastering the MorphOS API instead of learning industry-relevant Linux/Windows APIs? Or is the API issue small fry compared to understanding how C++ works?
Mastery of the language and programming itself are the most important. Once you've taken care of that, using any well documented API isn't a problem.
On the other hand, the thought of spending lots of time learning the MUI API might be a bit de-motivating, knowing it won't be directly benefiting my CV
Of course, but the key is mastering programming itself. Learning how to use an API is part of that.
I don't really see a problem with learning how to program on an AmigaOS related platform, but there are good options for Windows as well, such as Visual Studio (express editions are free, requires a Microsoft account, also free). Because you want relevant skills, just stay away from 680x0 assembly language :lol:
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You are probably asking a biased community :)
From personal experience (I run a software company) I'd say software testing is generally a dead end (coding wise), unless you want to stay in that area writing test scripts.
It's really important that you find out what types of industries you have locally and what type of language is prevalent there. Each language has it's own nuances that can take many years to master so you are best to go straight for the language that you want to learn and will get the most out of. Employers will look for keen people with some experience in the requisite languages. There are many junior developers out there so anything that puts you in a better position is worth doing.
As for anything Amiga related: only do this if it is in line with your goal. Working on a 'dead' OS will be viewed by many as a pointless exercise (and a distraction for your potential job). By all means do it as a hobby, just not as a means to make yourself stand out. You'll have to invest a lot of time to learn Morph OS as you suspected.
Finally, read books, learn the terminology and best practices and experiment with them and you'll get on your way. If you struggle to get interviews you should get some college courses on your CV and make the most of their careers advisers who will be able to put you in touch with employers.
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As for anything Amiga related: only do this if it is in line with your goal. Working on a 'dead' OS will be viewed by many as a pointless exercise (and a distraction for your potential job).
The OS is not relevant, mastering programming is. Once you've mastered programming, adapting to other APIs and languages isn't very difficult.
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The OS is not relevant, mastering programming is. Once you've mastered programming, adapting to other APIs and languages isn't very difficult.
While usually true, attempting to master anything is a big investment/risk if it isn't in line with the opportunities in your area. For me, it's such an important time to be going off on tangents. There are huge differences between disciplines so you might as well get on the right track as early as possible, THEN play!
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Thank you for those replies.
I've spend a lot of years using RISC OS as my main operating system at home. It's been a lot of fun, but I've started to think how nice it would have been to have spent that time really getting to know Linux - again, career wise.
I'm in London. A little search of jobs by language in London gives:
C++ - 197
Java - 560
C# - 467
Asp.net - 271
Objective C - 53
Python - 191
Javascript - 609
PHP - 238
SQL - 851
HTML5 - 577
LAMP - 65
The local industry is very finance orientated, with a fairly healthy amount of start up activity.
This seems to point the way most clearly to web stuff (javascript, HTML5 numbers) and also Java or C#. Perhaps these stats make the MorphOS/C++ question redundant.
I've been learning programming concepts through Python, which has been an enjoyable start. I've heard good things about C#, less good things about Java. Is it time I dropped my anti-Microsoft stance??
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While usually true, attempting to master anything is a big investment/risk if it isn't in line with the opportunities in your area. For me, it's such an important time to be going off on tangents. There are huge differences between disciplines so you might as well get on the right track as early as possible, THEN play!
This sounds like a sensible philosophy...especially for me on career shift/life catch-up!
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Thank you for those replies.
I've spend a lot of years using RISC OS as my main operating system at home. It's been a lot of fun, but I've started to think how nice it would have been to have spent that time really getting to know Linux - again, career wise.
I'm in London. A little search of jobs by language in London gives:
C++ - 197
Java - 560
C# - 467
Asp.net - 271
Objective C - 53
Python - 191
Javascript - 609
PHP - 238
SQL - 851
HTML5 - 577
LAMP - 65
The local industry is very finance orientated, with a fairly healthy amount of start up activity.
This seems to point the way most clearly to web stuff (javascript, HTML5 numbers) and also Java or C#. Perhaps these stats make the MorphOS/C++ question redundant.
I've been learning programming concepts through Python, which has been an enjoyable start. I've heard good things about C#, less good things about Java. Is it time I dropped my anti-Microsoft stance??
If you master C++ you can master C# and Java, too. They are different but syntax is similar and are object oriented -- learning another language is quite easy. But it should work other way too, if you learn Java or C# first you probably can learn C++ quite easily if necessary.
C# is very good and I quite love it. And it does not hurt if you learn some SQL too.
MorphOS is rather C oriented than C++ and C++ experience is not so much use there. It is better reserved for small fun projects. Knowing some C can also help to get a job but consider C as a side skill. It is important in the embedded industry and sometimes important on Linux related projects.
When I started my career on SW industry it was embedded related C coding using an obscure operating system I never heard before. Later on my work shifted to C# with SQL, however, sometimes I have to look at Java, PHP or HTML code or even obscure Pascal code. I even converted some piece of VHDL code to C# without having any knowledge about VHDL per se.
Btw when I applied for my first job in 2007 I mentioned some of my MorphOS projects in my CV. They were looking for an experienced C developer and investing time to an obscure OS called MorphOS was useful.
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The OS is not relevant, mastering programming is. Once you've mastered programming, adapting to other APIs and languages isn't very difficult.
True enough, but if you want to find employment in the area, it probably more useful to point at a couple of open source projects you have contributed to - or even better - helped to establish. That leaves a good impression. Having written some unknown applications for a dead Os is probably less impressive. It gives you probably the title of a hobbyist with a touch for old-timers, but not a flexible modern software engineer that can master whatever project there will be.
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True enough, but if you want to find employment in the area, it probably more useful to point at a couple of open source projects you have contributed to - or even better - helped to establish. That leaves a good impression. Having written some unknown applications for a dead Os is probably less impressive. It gives you probably the title of a hobbyist with a touch for old-timers, but not a flexible modern software engineer that can master whatever project there will be.
Obviously, but when you still have to learn how to program, then this is entirely irrelevant. When you want a job as a programmer, then you have to master programming itself first. Once you've mastered that, you can start working on software for relevant platforms. No one wants beginner code in their open source projects, and you don't stick your learner projects on a CV anyway.
You can't be a flexible, modern software engineer without mastering programming, and because that's a process that takes several years, I wouldn't worry about what platform you use to learn it. What you should do is try to master programming using languages that allow you to do everything properly, so that you don't get into bad habits and learn nothing useful.
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Nothing wrong with learning and honing your skills on these platforms, but MOS/OS4/Alternative OS on a CV won't buy you much.
C is C, coding is coding, however. You'll either have a mind for coding as a whole, or you won't. Regardless of platform.
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I think a lot of people have an issue with Java based on the early days. It's a strong language and the job opportunities are everywhere for Java.
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Being in London makes it easier in terms of number of jobs, but harder in terms of number of applicants (it's very easy to get lots in a pile). The quickest way in is probably C++, however the fast track way to good money is something like C# MVC (which needs javascript, HTML5 and CSS3). Once you have a couple of years experience then consider your options. Jumping from one language to another (C++ <-> C# <-> Java) is not as painless as people make out as there are considerable differences once you get deep into it. It's certainly not hard, just time consuming.
As you'll soon figure out there is a fair bit of luck involved in landing the right job, so don't take any advice rigidly and go with the flow.
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@dandelion
If you are new to programming and want to learn for a new career, then let me suggest Java (on a different platform obviously). It's very user friendly and suitable for beginners, and you can actually build a career on that one alone. And then C++ and C# etc is very similar so you could "easily" migrate to those.
:)
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Hi all,
I'm a long time geek, long time minority operating enthusiast, and recent convert to the idea that maybe working in the IT industry might be a good option. I mean, I love computers, I love to learn, I love to keep learning, and the money's good! That's my logic!
I've been dabbling in Python and R - have written some machine learning script stuff via a data science course for some massive datasets. Sort of excited about this, but really like the idea of developing deep mastery of applications/OS programming.
As an Amiga/minority OS geek - would MorphOS/AmigaOS provide a useful platform to hone my development skills? Is C++ still worth learning? Would I spend most of my time mastering the MorphOS API instead of learning industry-relevant Linux/Windows APIs? Or is the API issue small fry compared to understanding how C++ works?
You see, I'm thinking this might provide a nice additional motivation boost to learn to code. On the other hand, the thought of spending lots of time learning the MUI API might be a bit de-motivating, knowing it won't be directly benefiting my CV (probably even something to keep quiet about!)
Any thoughts, advice greatly appreciated!
ps. In the very short term, I need to get paid. What's the best way to start earning money with a very slender IT-specific CV? (I have a biochem PhD, teaching qualifications - but my relevant IT stuff is at best 6 months old, and most employers are slightly dubious). Software testing? But even here experience is required! Aghh!
Sorry to say and as much as I like to promote MorphOS - but when your goal is to get paid, start straight away on Windows or Apple. C++ in general is not too hard to understand IMHO, but knowing all the API stuff is quite a bit to learn. Plus, the programming tools and internet resources are much richer for Windows and OS X. Also I must say that the only program by Microsoft I was really hooked by was Visual Studio. The project manager just loads some effort off from you, the editor does what it should do, the debugger works as intended and the help and online resources are massive. In brief: While I have trouble to do a proper MorphOS program using C++ I hadn't those issues with Windows.
For a hello world program of course it doesn't matter what OS to use, but from my experience with C++ so far I rather spent more time with API stuff that with the inner logic of the programs. That said I must emphasize that my C++ skills are rather limited and hemce I am not the best &.
Best C++ book I had: John R. Hubbard: Programming with C++
This book covers plain C++ without assuming to know C before and without a lot of "old" things. Learning C++ that way probably helps when switching to Java or C#.
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This sounds like a sensible philosophy...especially for me on career shift/life catch-up!
You should stick to your current job field until you have more knowledge and experience in IT, or programming, so you can afford to pay the bills while you are learning how to become a programmer. Don't make the mistake of trying to switch careers too early and put yourself in a financial bind that makes everything harder to accomplish.
I understand the education system in the UK is very different (and frankly so much better) than here in the USA, but for the most part, having a job that pays well is still important while you are preparing yourself for a career change.
As for which platform to learn first, choose the one that both has a large number of job opportunities, plus seems the most fun and interesting to you. The last thing you want to do is switch careers to something that is boring and repetitive that you are going to hate doing for years and years, until you retire (or decide to switch careers again, because you hate it).
Good Luck!
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No one has suggested 68k assembly.
There are two ways you could approach it: A tutorial language where you learn the structure of programs.
Otherway would be a low level language 68k or C (both are similiar) using the Amiga libraries if you are familiar with them.
Learning Java or C is hard and you won't be doing interesting programs for a while.
Java has different versions which are not compatible. I'm pretty sure C++ has stayed the same.
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No one has suggested 68k assembly.
There are only two good reasons for learning 68k assembly language:
1) To write programs on a hobby basis.
2) To learn how computers work at the low level.
Until someone has built up some experience with programming, I'd stay away from any kind of assembly language. Learning how computers work at the low level can, of course, be useful, but not as a beginner.
Otherway would be a low level language 68k or C (both are similiar) using the Amiga libraries if you are familiar with them.
Definitely go for C. When still learning how to program, 68k won't help someone. Assembly language is also just about the worst language to start with.
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You can't be a flexible, modern software engineer without mastering programming, and because that'the bads a process that takes several years, I wouldn't worry about what platform you use to learn it. What you should do is try to master programming using languages that allow you to do everything properly, so that you don't get into bad habits and learn nothing useful.
Some very useful comments here. Thank you. Out of Java, C# and C++, would you say they all help you learn to code without developing the bad habits you refer to?
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Some very useful comments here. Thank you. Out of Java, C# and C++, would you say they all help you learn to code without developing the bad habits you refer to?
Java indeed has some "safety nets" connected to it. Personally, I think this is a good thing for newbies. I understand that there is a flip side to this coin (but maybe you shouldn't worry to much about "bad habits" before you have had any chance to develop *any* kind of habits at all?). But Java is today used for introduction to programming at many universities, probably for this reason. And, the documentation and newbie information for Java is kind of massive online. Java is a good newbie language! :)
IMHO: Learn the methodology in objective programming, learn to "think the think". This will benefit you whatever language you later will dive further into. Learn how to crawl, then how to walk the walk, before trying to walk at the catwalk. Java is a good stepping stone for this IMHO.
:)
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You should stick to your current job field until you have more knowledge and experience in IT, or programming, so you can afford to pay the bills while you are learning how to become a programmer. Don't make the mistake of trying to switch careers too early and put yourself in a financial bind that makes everything harder to accomplish.
I understand the education system in the UK is very different (and frankly so much better) than here in the USA, but for the most part, having a job that pays well is still important while you are preparing yourself for a career change.
Good Luck!
I definitely agree with this. Unfortunately it is a bit too late, as I've already made my move and am now newly unemployed. Still, my old job as a teacher made it near impossible to do ANYTHING outside of teachng for the majority of the year...so that would have made it difficult.
So now I'm looking for work where a) they pay me and train me (e.g. grad schemes). b) allied roles like support/networking which will allow me to get a job more quickly and study coding in my own time c) payi g for a SQL server course - expensive but lots of jobs. Then doing that whilst learning coding.
D) Getting a job in data science...but my shaky stats knowledge makes me worry here.
Perhaps the grad scheme is the best bet as I can get paid and learn the it industry and coding skills during ghe day, instead of what I can manage in the evenings.
If anyone can think of other options I haven't considered, I'd be very interested to read them!
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Some very useful comments here. Thank you. Out of Java, C# and C++, would you say they all help you learn to code without developing the bad habits you refer to?
Those seem fine to me. Just steer clear of things like Pascal, and crusty BASIC interpreters. Also, don't even think about assembly language. While assembly language allows you to do things properly, it's not very practical, and isn't used in many jobs.
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Basically if you can learn OOP then you are all set. As was mentioned java will give you a good start whilst givng a good safety net. Great exception handling plus generics which give you type saftey at the compiler level. Java is used prety heavily in industry these days, I see a lot more work and jobs for java developers than c++ these days. Though .net and by extension c# is pretty strong too
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Something I've seen coming along nicely, in addition to the ones mentioned, is Node.JS. That's server-side JavaScript. If you want to learn JavaScript and some of the OOP frameworks for the client-side in the web browser, then Node.JS should be a comfortable addition as well. (Before I get any farther, note that it doesn't run on MorphOS yet.)
I'm roughly following the "MEAN stack" development track for web development for my educational path. (That's MongoDB, Express.JS, Angular.JS, and Node.JS.) The only thing wrong with this picture of the future is that there are too many people using SQL databases that are stable as rocks and nearly as slow. I like MongoDB in conjunction with Node.JS because it stores its documents as JSON files (stands for JavaScript Object Notation, a data-only subset of JavaScript) converted to the BSON binary form. This makes the database so much faster than SQL. Another thing to consider about MongoDB is that it uses drivers rather than a custom language (SQL stands for Server Query Language) so you can access the features directly from Node.JS or C++ on a supported OS. One reason I bring this up is that MongoDB, Inc. offers free training online at the MongoDB University website (https://university.mongodb.com/).
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Something I've seen coming along nicely, in addition to the ones mentioned, is Node.JS. That's server-side JavaScript. If you want to learn JavaScript and some of the OOP frameworks for the client-side in the web browser, then Node.JS should be a comfortable addition as well. (Before I get any farther, note that it doesn't run on MorphOS yet.)
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Interestingly, you're the second person to recommend node.js. The first was a French web entrepreneur who had run a very (financially) successful website for the last 10 years, built largely on LAMP and Javascript, but now being reworked with node.js I believe.
Hadn't heard of the MEAN stack or the MongoDB University training - will check that out. Certainly, SQL seems to still be very much in demand - but it's also nice to be ahead of the curve a bit!
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Those seem fine to me. Just steer clear of things like Pascal, and crusty BASIC interpreters. Also, don't even think about assembly language. While assembly language allows you to do things properly, it's not very practical, and isn't used in many jobs.
Great. Thanks Thorham :)
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The whole point of sql though is so that you don't have to learn a specific command set for every database you need to read or write to. Sql was written for non programmers. That is why it's So easy to use.
Apart from the apparent loss of speed using then makes writing applications than can run on a host of databases just changing a config file.
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I haven't found one good Java tutorial. C++ has a lot of good tutorials and they are free.
What should he do to find api and/or library references so he can make programs?
This is a beginners language, it is suppose to be a good pre-cursor to Java:
http://www.alice.org/index.php (http://www.alice.org/index.php)
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Follow this book first:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Accelerated-Practical-Programming-Example-Series/dp/020170353X
Then read these in this order:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Effective-Specific-Programs-Professional-Computing/dp/0321334876/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411921391&sr=1-1&keywords=effective+c%2B%2B
http://www.amazon.co.uk/More-Effective-Programs-Professional-Computing/dp/020163371X/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411921391&sr=1-4&keywords=effective+c%2B%2B
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Effective-STL-Specific-Professional-Computing/dp/0201749629/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411921391&sr=1-3&keywords=effective+c%2B%2B
Use this as your go to reference book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/C-Programming-Language-Bjarne-Stroustrup/dp/0321563840/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411921391&sr=1-6&keywords=effective+c%2B%2B
Enjoy!
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(sql stands for structured query language)
ftfy. :)
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I haven't found one good Java tutorial. C++ has a lot of good tutorials and they are free.
What should he do to find api and/or library references so he can make programs?
This is a beginners language, it is suppose to be a good pre-cursor to Java:
http://www.alice.org/index.php (http://www.alice.org/index.php)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Java-Everyone-Cay-S-Horstmann/dp/0471791911
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Java indeed has some "safety nets" connected to it. Personally, I think this is a good thing for newbies. I understand that there is a flip side to this coin (but maybe you shouldn't worry to much about "bad habits" before you have had any chance to develop *any* kind of habits at all?). But Java is today used for introduction to programming at many universities, probably for this reason. And, the documentation and newbie information for Java is kind of massive online. Java is a good newbie language! :)
IMHO: Learn the methodology in objective programming, learn to "think the think". This will benefit you whatever language you later will dive further into. Learn how to crawl, then how to walk the walk, before trying to walk at the catwalk. Java is a good stepping stone for this IMHO.
:)
Indeed, learn to program before you begin to learn to hack.
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If you want work, learn JavaScript, CSS, HTML, MySQL and PHP...
This will allow you to work on most web development teams.
For proper coding, Google "Thinking in C++", that will give you a free C++ book, which covers OOP coding.