1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64

[omnicron10]

I have both.

The U2 works better at drive emulation but the Chameleon offers a lot more functions and you can actually order it.  It took 8 months for me to get the U2 and the Chameleon I got in less than 1 month.

I expect big improvements in the Chameleon in the new few updates.  It already has been updated a lot since I got it and works a lot better than it did!

[omnicron10]

The thing about the Chameleon 64 that I dislike is the lack of Midi, therefore no Mssiah. :/

It does support Prophet-64 crt images so with a User Port Midi you could almost have both.

If you like GEOS and have tried it on Chameleon 64 with the Turbo on, that is very nice right there.  

The reason it does not work on the 128 is due to the difference between the 64 and the 128 cart ports.  The 128 does not have the same "feature" they need to make it work the same way.  I was tired numerous times by Jens and company.

The Chameleon does support a lot of features that the U2 does but they are not as mature.  They are getting better all the time.

I really like the CDTV IR remote use.  I  find it very handy to use it.    

The only difference in the above list the U2 can work on a 128.  Try to buy on though.  It will take several months of waiting.  Look like June right now to fulfill orders from May and before..  You are looking for a 6 month wait if you order now if the ordering is open.

[omnicron10]

No. It is a midi interface that uses the C64 User Port vs the Crt port.

See http://www.firestarter-music.de/prophet/ for some information.

Midi is basically a serial connection.  On the MSSIAH they basically added the prophet-64 and the MIDI in one device.  Very nice but also takes up the Cart port for all other uses.  

With Chameleon, you can use Prophet 64 ROM Image, REU, 1351 Mouse Emulation, 2nd SID, Jiffy DOS in both the drive and the C64 (with only the rom images), a PS2 KB if you wish, VGA output, Extra Speed and use MIDI on the user port on a real C64.  No other device will do that.

[omnicron10]

Aghh, but can I use midi without the C64?

No. You would need the C64.  I have not seen this setup tested 100% with the Prophet 64 and the Chameleon with a C64.  It should work and if it doesn't I would imagine they would like to know to fix any bugs.

[omnicron10]

Well then, I'll just stick with my Mssiah and C64 then.

Good idea.

The Chameleon is not a 1.0 release yet.  

Sometime in the rear future I will get the UserPort midi interface and test it with Prophet64 and see how well that works on the Chameleon.

[omnicron10]

if you think you want all the goodies on the chameleon, I'd def get an fpgaarcade over chameleon.

The Chameleon core is not open source and I doubt you will see it on the FPGAarcade.

The FPGA64 which started on the C-One is vastly inferior VIC emulation to Chameleon.

I have tried almost all the FPGA commodore 64 cores on all the different hardware and the only one to almost get it right and has continual development is the Chameleon.  

Another issue is the CPU core as well.  A lot has been improved since the FPGA64 core on the Chameleon and since more FPGA c64 cores are based on the FPGA64, they would have a lot of work to do to get it close the Chameleon.

I do have to warn that the Chameleon CPU core is not 100% yet but it is the closest.  Even when it is not in high speed mode, the biggest issue is the CPU compatibility a lot of the time.

I think you would be surprised on the amount of software that does not run well on the non-chameleon FPGA cores.  I was not impressed with the others as a C64 replacement.  Chameleon is the only one that has gotten closest

[omnicron10]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but are there any similar products out there like MMC64 currently?

I would be perfectly happy with possiblity just load .tap or .d64 files

.TAP would require a audio interface and only the U2 does that over the cassette port.  The Chameleon is suppose to have it at some port over the virtual CIAS.

If you just want .d64 support you can get a SD2IEC interface.

Wiki Page
http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/SD2IEC

If you want to purchase one it looks like you can get it here.
http://store.nkcelectronics.com/sd2iec-boar2.html

and uIEC
http://store.go4retro.com/categories/Commodore/Hardware/uIEC/

But I am not sure how they compare with each other at this point.

It is quite a bit cheaper also.

[omnicron10]

The 1541u2 is open source, so CPU acceleration is entirely possible.
Gideon would have probably done it himself but he's short on time these days.

Gideon has released the code that runs on the 1541u2 but not the FPGA source.  That also would not have anything to do with making a CPU accelerator.   For that, a person would need the block and schematic diagram/pinouts for the FPGA and other components on the PCB.  

I am not saying that it could not be a CPU accelerator but it is not.  The Chameleon is here today, it can be ordered and works.  Try to order a 1541u2 and get it inside 6 months.

Although it does not work on the C128 is due to the C128 not being 100% hardware compatible to the c64.  The way that the Chameleon functions does not exist on the C128 hardware.  It was tried and investigated heavily.

I would love it to work on the C128.  The Chameleon fpga pinout is opensource, that allows others to make FPGA cores for the cartridge.  Someone could make a CPU/REU version of the Chameleon that does not have the VGA promotion.   I am not sure that an accelerator on the C128 works 100% from the cart port without internal hardware though.  Didn't the SuperCPU128 require an internal daughterboard?

[omnicron10]

Really, if you look at it.  The C128 has nothing over the c64 in 40 column mode with a Chameleon.

With the Chameleon you get:

REU (more memory that c128)
Turbo (with C128/C64 $D030 bit support)
COP (chameleon object processor)
Kernel changes via ROM image (enhanced basic or jiffydos type things)

COP allows direct access to the VGA mode on the Chameleon with things like Blitter support and 65k colors.  COP is being redone at this point so we are waiting for what the latest build will have.  I think this is one of the main reasons the we are lacking a Chameleon update for the last few months.

One thing I forgot to mention in previous posts is PAL!

In standalone (if your c64 is NTSC) you can run PAL mode!  So many good demos and games that never worked on NTSC in PAL land!

[omnicron10]

You never know with COP maybe we will get c65 emulation (I don't really know enough about the c65) out the Chameleon 64?

Would be cool but it would not be via COP.

Jens is not interested in making emulation for really non-existance computer. There was even a question on how much to expand the C64 that would make it essentially a unique computer that never was.

With the power of the FPGA, a computer could be created that is a lot more powerful the c64 or most Amigas!

For a C65 you need to make a VIC III, DMAGIC and the CSG4510 CPU that has two of the 6526 CIAs in it in FPGA.  The CPU and CIAs are kinda portable from the existing FPGA cores but the VIC III and DMAGIC would have to be reversed engineered. Some of the VIC II stuff would be ported over to the VIC III but not enough is know between these two chips and enough software for the VIC III to ever know if it was recreated 100%.

If you created the VIC II 100% from spec sheets, most of the really amazing C64 software would not work!  It can do so much more than the spec sheets have listed.

I think the logical expansion of Chameleon with COP is a good idea.  It could even support multimonitor.  VIC II on the C64 and COP output on the other.  You might even do overlay with COP doing background and the C64 sprites and other items on the screen or visa versa.  Things like that could run on normal C64s and then have an enhanced mode for the Chameleon.

[omnicron10]

That is not true. The 1541u2 documentation includes how to install the xilinx tool chain and build everything. http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/doc/1541U2Doc_v0.3.pdf
 
If I had the time to learn about fpgas then I would.

At one point he did not release the VHDL.  I will have to see if it actually have the VHDL source.  That would be interesting.

[omnicron10]

The internal board the supercpu needs for a c128 is for the MMU, because the cartridge slot just gets the 64k view of memory.
 
However the chameleon isn't compatible with the c128 at all because of the way it does the vga output. It doesn't have to be this way, it could be made to work. They just don't want to.
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/message/126
 
The PLA problem Jens talks about is because of how they achieve dual head output (VGA+VIC), you could work round this by only supporting VGA output. At which point you don't need to write to main memory at all, so the MMU problem goes out the window. 80 column output would still work, just no VIC.
 
If you want a real c128 to go faster in c128 mode, then your only option is a supercpu v2 with an mmu adapter. Expensive, but it'll work.

The chameleon started life as a VGA output and FLOPPY replacement.

The C128 does not support the VGA VICII mirroring feature in C64 mode or C128 as you pointed out.  

Could they make a non VGA version?  Sure but that was not the point of the Chameleon.  Since the Chameleon is a commercial product and they have to make money as well, I think resources are better served get the current core as good as possible vs making a c128 version of it.

They have released enough information that if you wanted to make a C128 accelerator you can write your own FPGA for it.  

The C128 also have a lot of cart port timing differences compared to most C64s.

[omnicron10]

My suffestion was the opposite, keep the VGA and ignore the VIC. The Chameleon already supports generating VGA output without VIC, so the amount of work would not be huge.

So you are saying output the VIC display on the Chameleon non-synced with the internal c128 display?  The C128 would be not more than a keyboard I guess.

I am not sure that would work. The "magic" that allows the Chameleon to know what the VIC sees does not seem to work on the C128 so how would the Chameleon display the VIC output?  It is almost like to computers that are synced to each other and the Chameleon is a slave to the master.  The Chameleon has also taken over or duplicated large aspects of the CIAs and MEMORY.  The method in which it has done that I think also precludes things like IEC emulation without a cable unlike the 1541U2.

Just my understanding of how it works.  I have tried to follow it closely.

[omnicron10]

Thanks all,

I have learned quite a bit from this thread!

GOOD!

I like both products.  The 1541 U2 is a great device and does what it is suppose to do with out much fault.  Reasonable updates and feedback seem to the norm as well.

The Chameleon is incredible.  Can be very complicated and is not 100% in the CPU emulation yet but VERY useable.  Depending on what you do with your C64, you might not have any problems with it.  Being able to run PAL in standalone here in NTSC land is very cool.  Future updates should make it even a better device.  C128 support is nice too.

Biggest issue for the 1541 U2 is the time it takes to get one.  It can be 6+ months.

Biggest issue for the Chameleon is the complexity and the semi-beta status of the device.  It can be so many different hardware configurations that you can make settings that don't work.  The documentation is orientated toward a very knowledgeable C64 owner and or programer.  BTW, if you are a C64 programer, they almost all the features of the Chameleon accessible is a very well documented and powerful fashion.

I have heard that the stock of the Chameleon is running low.  I believe a new run will be made but it might take a while.

[omnicron10]

Looks like the Chameleon is out of stock... sad face...

In the latest firmware there is a documentation   folder now that has a pretty good user manual.  Not bad.

http://beta.icomp.de/bin/Chameleon_Beta-7a.zip