User wants (from "Call for Amiga Developers from A-EON Technology")

[Kremlar]

But lets not bash on Aeon and Amigakit for really and honestly pushing Amiga into the future with OS 4. They are doing so in a strategic way that most would have thought impossible. But their honest passion and enthusiasm and (lets not forget) folks like Trevor fronting the capitol to take a shot at this to make it possible. Most of us have the struggle of deciding if we are going to support Amigakit with the latest card for our classic machine, or if we should fork out the money for a new OS4 machine but those financial risks pale in comparison to the financial risks Trevor, Aeon, and Amigakit have taken because they believe in the Amiga. Heck, they are even trying to continue support for OS3 through apps. Who else in the world would take the risks they have been taking for the Amiga? Who else in the world would put the time and energy into the Amiga with the honest intention of trying to make it a viable platform again? What these folks have undertaken may be later in the game then we could of hoped for, and there is *always* room for improvement. Anyone can criticize how they could have done this better or that better, and I'm not saying we shouldn't bring constructive criticism to the table (bring it), but let us please give proper respect where respect is due.

Right.  Although I don't agree with the direction they are pushing in, the effort they are  giving is remarkable.  Unfortunately in the Amiga world it seems everyone has a different opinion on which way Amiga should grow.  I believe the largest group is the classic/68K group, but even that group is so fragmented.

If A-eon wants to support 68k amiga, why dont they produce some new hardware (computers). ?

Right.  I'm surprised no one has backed a project like FPGA Arcade / NATAMI / MiST / etc. yet.

What market? Hardware to OS3.x does not in any way, shape or form, compete with OS4.

Of course it does.  OS4 hardware's best potential for growth is convincing others in the Amiga community (classic users being the largest group) that the cost of entry is reasonable and that OS4 is the way of the future for their Amigas.  New classic hardware, such as the FPGA Arcade, MiST, etc. makes OS4 hardware less attractive for these people - especially as FPGA capabilities continue to increase.  If they see a future in their current platform, and little advantage to the OS4 platform, there's little reason to switch.

I think most classic users want to see the Amiga grow into what COULD have been, like the NATAMI promised.  Many will say that Commodore was going the direction of PowerPC/OS4 anyway, but I don't think that's what classic users want.  They want to see things improved along the lines of the original Amiga chipset, maybe what AAA would have been and beyond.  That's what I want too.  For everything else I'll just use a PC!

[Iggy]

...I think most classic users want to see the Amiga grow into what COULD have been, like the NATAMI promised.  Many will say that Commodore was going the direction of PowerPC/OS4 anyway, but I don't think that's what classic users want.  They want to see things improved along the lines of the original Amiga chipset, maybe what AAA would have been and beyond.  That's what I want too.  For everything else I'll just use a PC!

From what Dave Haynie says, Commodore was going to move to a RISC platform.
And perpetual backwards compatibility rarely occurs.
Most X64 systems have trouble running legacy programs.
What makes you think that if the Amiga had survived it wouldn't be a vastly different system by now?

You do realize the the AAA chipset was not meant to be an upgrade, rather it was a replacement.

Right now, the primary problem I have with OS4 is that it struggles too hard to retain the look, feel, and basic structures of previous versions of Amiga OS.

Your position is not particularly attractive to me.
FPGAs CAN'T approach ASICs in performance.
The only reason that they perform better than a real 68K is that that processor is SO dated.

So if I were to follow your logic, I would find myself waiting for the fulfillment of fantasy projects that, even if they are produced, would not be competitive.

Personally, I can't see our market expanding without drawing in new users. And legacy hardware has limited appeal to anyone not already familiar with the Amiga.

So the real challenge is not to cater to community members like you, but to make the NG OS' powerful enough to be reasonable substitutes for more mainline hardware.

[alphadec]

Right.  I'm surprised no one has backed a project like FPGA Arcade / NATAMI / MiST / etc. yet.


!

I think it is strange the they dont also include a classic amiga built on todays standard and a system like natami / fpga amiga would be perfect for those of us who is not millionaires yet!

[Kremlar]

From what Dave Haynie says, Commodore was going to move to a RISC platform.
And perpetual backwards compatibility rarely occurs.
Most X64 systems have trouble running legacy programs.
What makes you think that if the Amiga had survived it wouldn't be a vastly different system by now?

I agree, it would be vastly different and I also believe that many users would have moved on because of it.  I think most people still interested in the platform today got into the Amiga because of the core product that Jay Miner and his team created.  Incredible graphics & sound, and a great multitasking OS.  

Commodore advanced the product but not the core.  Sure they slapped on faster processors, more RAM and more expandability, but that wasn't core to the Amiga - it's not what made the Amiga different.  They made marginal improvements to the core (ECS, AGA, etc.) but it was way too little and way too late.

You do realize the the AAA chipset was not meant to be an upgrade, rather it was a replacement.

Understood, but if AAA was released early enough and a substantial enough jump over AGA it may not have mattered to many.  Lack of compatibility did not stop most people from moving from C64s to Amigas because the jump was significant.  Back then compatibility between significant platform jumps was not as important.  I do believe that when AAA was canned and development of Hombre started they were planning on implementing AGA compatibility in some shape or form.

Today compatibility is critical because new software development is virtually non-existant.  The Amiga is a retro platform.  People like me are interested in it because it's what we grew up with, we loved the software, and loved how the system worked.  If you kill compatibility, if you kill the core, you kill the nostalgia.

Your position is not particularly attractive to me.
FPGAs CAN'T approach ASICs in performance.
The only reason that they perform better than a real 68K is that that processor is SO dated.

Right, and from a retro point of view that's all that's needed.  If people are happy with a 68020/30/60 when they use their Amigas today they should be ecstatic about something that might exceed the 68060 performance.

Right now, the primary problem I have with OS4 is that it struggles too hard to retain the look, feel, and basic structures of previous versions of Amiga OS.

...

So if I were to follow your logic, I would find myself waiting for the fulfillment of fantasy projects that, even if they are produced, would not be competitive.

Personally, I can't see our market expanding without drawing in new users. And legacy hardware has limited appeal to anyone not already familiar with the Amiga.

So the real challenge is not to cater to community members like you, but to make the NG OS' powerful enough to be reasonable substitutes for more mainline hardware.

That's where we're different, and I think many Amiga users differ.  Expanding the Amiga to replace the PC is not interesting to me because it is so far behind.  For every step the AmigaOne takes everything else takes 20 steps.  AmigaOS never had a reasonable implementation of Java or Flash and those technologies are already dated.  Modern day computing is a moving target that a small development team working part time cannot keep up with.  I can understand the motivation, but for me I'd rather just use a PC than struggle with every day tasks on an Amiga.

I'd rather use my Amiga to play some games, tune my workbench, play with some applications that I never used before - things that I did back in the day.  If I want to browse the web, create a PDF, read email, or work on a spreadsheet there are much better tools for the job.

I would never want to replace my PC with a Nintendo Wii U, and I would never want to replace it with my Amiga.

Back in the 80s/90s the draw to using the Amiga instead of the PC was because it was different and BETTER.  Nowadays it's just different and way WORSE - different is not sufficient to me to replace my PC.

[bison]

I think it is strange the they dont also include a classic amiga built on todays standard and a system like natami / fpga amiga would be perfect for those of us who is not millionaires yet!

An FPGA A1200 would be nice, but I don't know if that's possible, not knowing much about the limitations of FPGA.  I assume that it is slower than conventional ICs, but maybe that doesn't matter when you are implementing a 14 MHz system.

[Iggy]

@Kremlar

I understand your position, I just don't agree with it.
I'm enjoying a reasonably modern platform with MorphOS.
And while neither MorphOS and OS4 support Flash (which is also a problem with Linux), we do have html5 (which is a much more efficient package).

But, should a legacy emulation system be produced (in HARDWARE not UAE), I too would be interested in the nostalgia exploring such a system would bring.

I'm just not sure that that course offers much of a future.
After all, I can buy a Sega genesis emulation system, but that does make Genesis games any more appealing.

And that is just one thing that NG can support that is a nice improvement (and trust me, games dedicated to an NG platform generally look better than legacy Amiga), browsers and other practical apps run better on more powerful hardware.

[Kremlar]

An FPGA A1200 would be nice, but I don't know if that's possible, not knowing much about the limitations of FPGA. I assume that it is slower than conventional ICs, but maybe that doesn't matter when you are implementing a 14 MHz system.

It's very real now.  I haven't been following MiST much, but my FPGA Arcade exceeds the performance of an Amiga 1200.  I've just started really using it the past few days but love it so far.

I understand your position, I just don't agree with it.
I'm enjoying a reasonably modern platform with MorphOS.
And while neither MorphOS and OS4 support Flash (which is also a problem with Linux), we do have html5 (which is a much more efficient package).

This is the main problem with what's left of the Amiga market I think - too fragmented because everyone has different ideas of what an "Amiga" is and what they want out of it.  Sad but true.  

But, should a legacy emulation system be produced (in HARDWARE not UAE), I too would be interested in the nostalgia exploring such a system would bring.

I love my FPGA Arcade, but I could see why others want more performance if they are used to high-end classic systems.  Hopefully performance will improve.

I'm just not sure that that course offers much of a future.
After all, I can buy a Sega genesis emulation system, but that does make Genesis games any more appealing.

True, the market I enjoy is limited to retro/nostalgia, but honestly I don't believe the NG market has much of a future either.

And that is just one thing that NG can support that is a nice improvement (and trust me, games dedicated to an NG platform generally look better than legacy Amiga), browsers and other practical apps run better on more powerful hardware.

Right, but for me there's my PC and other platforms for modern applications.

Perhaps I would understand the attraction better if I spent more time with MorphOS/OS4.x/AROS, but my free time is limited and nothing jumps out to attract me to those platforms...

[OlafS3]

@Kremlar

I understand your position, I just don't agree with it.
I'm enjoying a reasonably modern platform with MorphOS.
And while neither MorphOS and OS4 support Flash (which is also a problem with Linux), we do have html5 (which is a much more efficient package).

But, should a legacy emulation system be produced (in HARDWARE not UAE), I too would be interested in the nostalgia exploring such a system would bring.

I'm just not sure that that course offers much of a future.
After all, I can buy a Sega genesis emulation system, but that does make Genesis games any more appealing.

And that is just one thing that NG can support that is a nice improvement (and trust me, games dedicated to an NG platform generally look better than legacy Amiga), browsers and other practical apps run better on more powerful hardware.

the big advantage (next to nostalgia and retro) is the huge software base that is beating all NG platforms combined by magnitude. And Aros 68k (with my distribution) or Amikit show what you can do with 68k. Even for a dev 68k offers advantages because much more development options including lots of optimized compilers. Free Pascal f.e. also works on 68k, of course you need lots of horsepower. There is also no reason why in future even modern software should be ported to it. Of course it is not powerful enough to run the newest Ego shooter but for that I can use my modern environment like Kremlar said, trying to compete with Windows or Linux or Mac makes no sense. MorphOS is a good and fast OS without doubt and if it runs on X64 it will be even faster but it lacks the whole software base the other platforms have. Upgrading the 68k hardware makes more sense to me than trying to upgrade the hardware and hope the devs will support it. That was what NG tried and failed years ago already.

[OlafS3]

It's very real now.  I haven't been following MiST much, but my FPGA Arcade exceeds the performance of an Amiga 1200.  I've just started really using it the past few days but love it so far.




This is the main problem with what's left of the Amiga market I think - too fragmented because everyone has different ideas of what an "Amiga" is and what they want out of it.  Sad but true.  




I love my FPGA Arcade, but I could see why others want more performance if they are used to high-end classic systems.  Hopefully performance will improve.


 

True, the market I enjoy is limited to retro/nostalgia, but honestly I don't believe the NG market has much of a future either.




Right, but for me there's my PC and other platforms for modern applications.

Perhaps I would understand the attraction better if I spent more time with MorphOS/OS4.x/AROS, but my free time is limited and nothing jumps out to attract me to those platforms...

I do not use Amiga for modern web browsing, all options like Apollo lack RAM. Even if, it would need tremendous work to port something like OWB on it (deadwood has said he would need 6 months for it, I would need 6 years then propably . So be it. I can live with it.

[itix]

Even for a dev 68k offers advantages because much more development options including lots of optimized compilers. Free Pascal f.e. also works on 68k, of course you need lots of horsepower. There is also no reason why in future even modern software should be ported to it.

What 68k lacks is proper SDK. To develop for 68k you have to collect it from the pieces. Get NDK from one place, compiler from another place, then download various standard linklibs (z, png, etc.) to get started. And finally download extra header files from yet another place to get an access to bsdsocket.library and other "standard" stuff but you might still found out that there is nowhere stdint.h, there are N+1 ixemul implementations all incompatible and everything else is in abandonded state.

I'd like to port some software from MorphOS to 68k, like Snoopium, but it always takes too much time to get all pieces together and it never gets done.

[OlafS3]

What 68k lacks is proper SDK. To develop for 68k you have to collect it from the pieces. Get NDK from one place, compiler from another place, then download various standard linklibs (z, png, etc.) to get started. And finally download extra header files from yet another place to get an access to bsdsocket.library and other "standard" stuff but you might still found out that there is nowhere stdint.h, there are N+1 ixemul implementations all incompatible and everything else is in abandonded state.

I'd like to port some software from MorphOS to 68k, like Snoopium, but it always takes too much time to get all pieces together and it never gets done.

In my distribution I have collected both many development environments/compilers and libraries. But you are right, there is not much support for 68k left, expecially everything newer mostly was ported either to MorphOS or AmigaOS. On 68k branch of Aros there is the chance to easily port something that is already available for other Aros branches.

[kolla]

That's REALLY nice! But why dont create an AmiStore app for ALL amiga flavours or maybe a web site opened to all if not an app(maybe measy to do?)?

It exists! It has been here _all the time_ !!!

And it can need some official support by the Money Makers and Job Creators:

http://aminet.net

[Kremlar]

Matthey gives the impression sometimes that he actually believes that - he has previously stated that if only we have a m68k based cheap Strawberry Pi, tens if not hundreds of thousands of people would buy it to run AmigaOS.

I could see thousands, maybe 10 thousand.  Commodore Amiga Group on Facebook has 10,952 members today.  I'd say a large percentage of those people would drop $50-$100 on something cheap and retro.  Who knows?

And he keeps referring to Apple, Microsoft, Linux etc as "the competition" - I don't know what to say about that other than "delusional" and over time it is very... tedious.  

Yes, I don't think competing with Microsoft or Apple or Linux is realistic at this stage.  

[Iggy]

@matthey

Yes, yes..."We can make it right this time and it will be our salvation".

I have heard that before.

That is not how computer systems evolve, constantly trying to refine old hardware platforms.

Instead new ideas are added in that improve the product.

Look at the Mac, not 68K based, not PPC based, now X64 based.
With FreeBSD underpinnings that are totally dissimilar to the original core.
BUT, the look and feel are there.

In fact, if asked to choose, I'd always take the more evolved package.

Further, the 68K and the Amiga chipset are both so dated that no matter how much you try to supplement them they will still be somewhat archaic.

AND some of those people you have mentioned have strung the community along for years.
When is the Natami going to be released?
Probably at the same time as the SharkPPC and the new improved version of WarpOS.

Finally, do you really think that new ASICs are going to be created to carry on the legacy of...well legacy hardware?
Why not follow Apple's lead and forego custom designed chips and buy 'off the rack'?

[kolla]

I'm surprised no one has backed a project like FPGA Arcade / NATAMI / MiST / etc. yet.

The "not invented here" syndrome. Also - what kind of backing could that be? Money? Maybe the people who do FPGA projects are not interested in being backed by entities who may want them to sign contracts and meet deadlines. Maybe people value their freedom to do things in their own timely matter.

Current FPGA systems available:

* Minimig - made by someone who wanted to prove a point in confrontation with "the community", everything open source, ported to many FPGA families by individuals.

* FPGA Arcade - made by someone who never really was an Amiga person, to be open sourced when Mike finds it to be ready enough.

* MIST - made by Atari people who have a very pragmatic view on Amiga, based on Minimig, all open source.

* Chameleon - FPGA C64 extension by Jens, I am guessing Minimig target by luck.

* Vampire 600 - much like Minimig, made to prove a point by someone who at the time was not really much of an Amiga user, all open source.

Then we have the projects that are more in typical spirit of Amiga...

* Natami - proprietary, no modesty, aimed to become "the new amiga", profit! Fail!

* Apollo core - left over from Natami, smaller focus (only a CPU core), fewer people, less to disagree over. Proprietary. Visions of profit, somehow. Announce first, implement later, regards other projects as "inferior", "competition" and "the enemy".

* Minimig+ - announced again, and then again, and sort of redundant by now. If they decide to develop a board in open communication with the community of FPGA/Minimig/others developers and users, it could be awesome. Must be open source hardware to attract developers and succeed.