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AuthorTopic: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC  (Read 14279 times)

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Offline Franko

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2011, 05:36:13 PM »
Quote from: AppleHammer;640855
M$ Office documents are so widespread in their use that they have become the global standard.  That's a fact, whether you choose to accept it or not.


It's not a case of whether I accept it or not, it's just down to the simple fact that I've never had to use any of these Word/Office documents in my life. So even if it's a fact or not, it simply doesn't apply to me or affect me... :)
 

guest7146

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Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2011, 05:57:57 PM »
Quote from: Franko;640862
It's not a case of whether I accept it or not, it's just down to the simple fact that I've never had to use any of these Word/Office documents in my life. So even if it's a fact or not, it simply doesn't apply to me or affect me... :)

Yep that's fine - I can understand that it doesn't affect the average Scotsman living in his underground lair :)

AH
 

Offline Iggy

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2011, 06:13:03 PM »
Quote from: AppleHammer;640858
The problem is that they're only worth that much to a very small number of classic Amiga enthusiasts.  If these were to be re-manufactured in significant numbers (significant as taken to mean >200 for example), then no company would be able to shift them all for that much.  The price would have to come down significantly, to <£500 I would guess.

Re-manufacturing the old BPPC and CSPPC cards would be the cheapest way to go, but this would involve obtaining all of the design information.  It would be good if we could obtain this information (even from a self interest point of view), but I doubt they will ever release it unfortunately, which is a shame.
Assuming we did obtain all the information necessary to re-manufacture the boards, then we'd have all kinds of obselecence and Rohs compliance issues to deal with as Kronos has already mentioned.

The better way forwards would be to develop a completely new PPC accelerator.  But then you're talking about significant design costs, which would need to be recouperated in sales.  There's probably not enough money in the current market to do that, and that's why nobody has come up with a PPC replacement so far.

It seemed like Elbox had got pretty far with their SharkPPC cards.  I'm not sure why these never gor released, and it is a shame for sure.

AH

If I'm not mistaken SharkPPC cards were just modified Apple PCI accelerator cards.
A new PPC design would be attractive, but we'd have no software support.
Convincing Hyperion or the MorphOS development team to support such an effort would be very difficult.
However, when I look at the design for the original Efika, I'm inclined to agree with you.
We have the schematics for that. The Open Firmware would be difficult to reverse engineer. But a 256MB 400Mhz 5200B accelerator is doable and would be cheap.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Franko

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2011, 06:17:24 PM »
Quote from: AppleHammer;640874
Yep that's fine - I can understand that it doesn't affect the average Scotsman living in his underground lair :)

AH


If that last comment of yours weren't so true I could have gone on rant about it... ;)
 

Offline Iggy

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2011, 06:26:40 PM »
Quote from: Franko;640862
It's not a case of whether I accept it or not, it's just down to the simple fact that I've never had to use any of these Word/Office documents in my life. So even if it's a fact or not, it simply doesn't apply to me or affect me... :)

That's fascinating. Not having used Word format documents is a little like never using a PDF. I have to agree its become a standard. I used to use Ami Pro, then Wordperfect, but Word just stream rolled right over its competitors.
I'm not sure Open Office is the best direction for us to head, but Word format support is essential.

BTW - What's this got to do with PPC accelerators?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Franko

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2011, 06:34:37 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;640882
That's fascinating. Not having used Word format documents is a little like never using a PDF.

BTW - What's this got to do with PPC accelerators?


Not quite sure why that would be fascinating as I could name countless people I know who haven't done so either... :)

Until I got these iMacs last summer I had only ever used one PDF file (1940/42 Service Manual) that I downloaded on my sisters PC a number of years ago and that until last summer was the only PDF I had ever viewed and used on my Amiga... :)

BTW - this has got nothing to do with PPC accelerators, not quite sure how we got on to this subject... :)
 

Offline Iggy

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2011, 06:54:35 PM »
>BTW - this has got nothing to do with PPC accelerators, not quite sure how we got on to this subject... :)

Like we ever stay on topic.
Actually, the only thing I've found essential with Word files is the ability to read them or convert them to a format I can edit on my own word processor.
This is why I find Open Office to be less then ideal. Its file conversions are often flawed.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

guest7146

  • Guest
Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2011, 06:56:24 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;640878
If I'm not mistaken SharkPPC cards were just modified Apple PCI accelerator cards.

Were they indeed? I wasn't aware of that.  If true, that probably explains why we saw evidence of boards that appeared quite complete, but we never saw an end product.

Quote from: Iggy
A new PPC design would be attractive, but we'd have no software support.
Convincing Hyperion or the MorphOS development team to support such an effort would be very difficult.

The MorphOS team abandoned classic Amiga quite some time ago, so there would possibly be a significant amount of work involved in supporting a new PPC accelerated classic Amiga setup.  If this is the case, then you could be right on that front.

But OS4 already has support for BPPC and CSPPC.  I can't imagine a newer accelerator being that far away compatability-wise, so support from Hyperion probably isn't so far-fetched.  In fact, I would imagine that any prospective PPC accelerator developer would try to obtain Hyperion's agreement for OS4 support before bothering to go ahead.

But this is all academic discussion really, because it's unlikely we'll see a new PPC accelerator for the classic Amiga.  I'd love to see one, and would definitely be a potential buyer if one were produced, but unfortunately I don't think we're likely to see it :(

AH
 

Offline Iggy

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2011, 07:08:22 PM »
@ AppleHammer

Yeah, the thing that's troubling is a new design could be affordable (compared to making more Phase5 compatible cards).
Less software compatibility would also reduce their appeal.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline B00tDisk

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Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2011, 07:27:09 PM »
Quote from: AppleHammer;640858

Re-manufacturing the old BPPC and CSPPC cards would be the cheapest way to go, but this would involve obtaining all of the design information.  It would be good if we could obtain this information (even from a self interest point of view), but I doubt they will ever release it unfortunately, which is a shame.
Assuming we did obtain all the information necessary to re-manufacture the boards, then we'd have all kinds of obselecence and Rohs compliance issues to deal with as Kronos has already mentioned.


Someone, either here or at AW.net said they'd tracked down one of the chief designers of the P5 boards asking about that very thing (releasing the designs) and was quoted $200,000 as the lowest starting price for that info.
Back away from the EU-SSR!
 

Offline Iggy

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2011, 08:10:03 PM »
Quote from: B00tDisk;640897
Someone, either here or at AW.net said they'd tracked down one of the chief designers of the P5 boards asking about that very thing (releasing the designs) and was quoted $200,000 as the lowest starting price for that info.

That is way beyond realistic. I have my doubts that the entire original run of those cards netted that much.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline B00tDisk

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Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2011, 08:15:44 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;640905
That is way beyond realistic. I have my doubts that the entire original run of those cards netted that much.


I just recall that as being what was quoted as the asking price.  I'm of the opinion (if I am remembering correctly) it was so high because virtually anyone who has tried to make a business out of anything Amiga winds up embittered and spiteful - to a one.  If that's the case then why would anyone want to do anything decent and charitable for a community they hate?

What was it Ben Hermans said not too long ago?  That all Amiga users could go die in a fire for all he cared or something like that?

If that's the prevalent mindset, is it any wonder an engineer would pull this "nyah nyah you can't have it" attitude.
Back away from the EU-SSR!
 

Offline Iggy

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2011, 08:32:38 PM »
Ben is obviously very conflicted. I've exchanged messages with him. Sometimes he can be very charming.
And there are some in the community that would like to spit on his grave.
Ben Hermans, Bill McEwen, Barry Altman - all lightening rods for controversy.

If I had a broken Phase5 card and a lot of time, I could figure out the layout.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

guest7146

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Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2011, 08:52:23 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;640911
If I had a broken Phase5 card and a lot of time, I could figure out the layout.

I mentioned doing this very thing a little while back.  I have two broken PPC cards, and I was considering making one good one out of the two and then removing all the components from the donar card with a view to trying to map out the PCB.

It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it would take a very patient person with a lot of time on their hands.  I'm not sure how many layers the board is, but we can assume >4 I think.  And you'd need to be able to see all of the layers - not sure if you'd get away with a light box.  If not you'd need an X-Ray machine.

Obviously, board layout isn't the whole story.  There's plenty of programmed devices to consider as well.

It's a shame we can't just get our hands on the info though.  The technical info is useful for just keeping our machines going, even if we can't ever justify designing out the obselecence/non conformity and doing a new production run.


AH
 

Offline Iggy

Re: WTB: Cyberstorm PPC
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2011, 10:05:25 PM »
Quote from: AppleHammer;640914
I
Obviously, board layout isn't the whole story.  There's plenty of programmed devices to consider as well.

It's a shame we can't just get our hands on the info though.  The technical info is useful for just keeping our machines going, even if we can't ever justify designing out the obselecence/non conformity and doing a new production run.


AH

That top part is what slowed me down with a re-implementation of a Freescale evaluation design. But even that can be overcome if you can figure out what it does (not how, what).

The board layers, yes an x-ray could prove useful, but then you have to figure out how to separate the layers. Another, much longer process, would be to test all the leads for continuity and re-create the schematic from the results.

But would all this hard work make sense? I don't know. But there would be the sense of accomplishment in defeating this and gaining the info.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"