OS4 rollout schedule

[ShadesOfGrey]

@logain et al

Yes, but somebody still has to pay for the development of AOS4 on Pegasos, Macintosh, and/or .  AFAIK, neither Amiga Inc. nor Hyperion have that kind of capital.  Nor do either have the resources to support Pegasos owners using a retail AOS4 package.  Does anyone dispute this?!?!?!

Lets please stop rehashing the 'AOS4 on Pegasos' argument.  It's not going to happen unless Genesi obtain an OEM license from Amiga Inc.  Genesi have stated they will not obtain an OEM license from Amiga Inc. (well at least under the current terms).  So, what do you think the likely hood is that Amiga Inc (and/or Eyetech/Hyperion) would allow Hyperion (err...  themselves) to bring AOS4 to the Pegasos?


[PLEASE NOTE: The preceding comments were made from a 'neutral' point of view.  Neutral, in so much as they are not intentionally biased toward either the pro-Amiga/Eytech/Hyperion or pro-Genesi factions.  PLEASE DO NOT TWIST MY WORDS TO THAT END!

This was simply an argument, based on presently available facts, that we (the users of Amiga.org) should just drop the 'AOS4 on Pegasos' topic --- Edit --- until Amiga Inc./Hyperion start selling retail packages of AOS 4 (excluding AOS4 for PPC enabled 'Classic' systems). --- Edit ---.  It only creates a vicious cycle of flame wars and FUD.  Something that I could most certainly live without.]

[ShadesOfGrey]

downix wrote:
@ShadesofGrey

No, you seem to not grasp the intent of the question.

It was not that Genesi wanted AOS4 on the Pegasos for AOS4's sake, but the Pegasos's sake.  Frankly, paying to have it ported then having the Pegasos's customers have to pay again per-copy sounds rather foolish to me, does it not to you?  Hyperion has stated that they are charging per-copy of AOS4, so they should not be then discussing charging the hardware manufacturer for the port as well.  

Unless you're saying that Hyperion recieved monies from Eyetech and DCE for the ports to their respective hardware platforms (The A1 and Cyberstorm/Blizzard, respectively).

Please don't take that the wrong way, but I don't think it's as simple as you put it.  Or rather it can't be as simplified as you put it.  It's just that most of the pro-Genesi camp have discounted the reasoning behind the licensing scheme that Amiga Inc. and Hyperion have hammered out and to which Eyech has agreed.

[Now, before anyone with conspiracy theories implying Eyetech's involvement in setting the OEM licensing terms, I'll agree that Eyetech may have had a hand in specifying a ROM dongle...  But I suspect it was more Amiga Inc.'s idea to have a dongle rather than Eyetech specifying a ROM dongle.  It's called negotiation.]

We have a situation where Hyperion, as an "Amiga" partner, is under contract to produce AOS4 and subsequent updates.  They must do this for any hardware manufacturer or vendor who has agreed to the terms of the OEM license.  This could include the Pegasos if Genesi or a Pegasos vendor were willing to agree to the terms of the OEM license (read about Eyetech's obligations below).  Personally I think this is quite reasonable, but that's just me.  Anyway, Amiga Inc. retains the right to 'buy back' all rights and IP associated with AOS 4 from Hyperion at just about anytime.  In return, Hyperion was provided the source to AOS 3.1 as a basis for AOS 4.  Hyperion get to determine the pricing of each OEM copy (if I've read the comments made here by Hyperion correctly).  Hyperion will not be responsible for end user support, hence they have more resources for their 'own' projects (AOS 4 games) and to further develop AOS 4 (4.1, 4.2, etc.)  Hyperion also retains the right to continue development of AOS 4 if Amiga Inc. should go out of business.

Likewise Eyetech, as an "Amiga" partner, is under contract to produce the AmigaOne.  They're also obligated to provide end user to support for AOS 4 and institute some form of copy protection scheme (i.e. ROM dongle).  Oh and Eyetech is obligated to bundle AOS 4 with all AmigaOne systems.  As to what Eyetech gets out of the deal...  Well, that's a bit harder to gauge.  The certainly get to use the "Amiga" trademark.  They also get 'exclusive' rights to 'distribute' AOS 4...  But that's only because no other PPC platform manufacturer/vendor has agreed to the OEM license.  So they know that those users interested in AOS 4 will have to buy their hardware.  I also suppose this gives them the right to leverage AOS 4 to produce turn-key systems/devices in other markets (i.e. STBs. Kiosks, game consoles, etc., etc.).  But that's just speculation on my part.

So, agreeing to the license and paying A 'nominal' (in Hyperion's opinion) fee is the 'incentive' for Hyperion to port AOS 4.  It does not cover all development costs, or provide Hyperion with profit on AOS 4 development.  Hyperion then expects to collect royalties based on each unit sold to recoup actual development costs and make some profit.  I don't see what makes this a bad thing.  And I don't see how this cam be viewed as unsual...  Ideally, this is how Microsoft's OEM licensing is supposed to work.  I'd also venture to guess this is how Apple's OEM licensing worked back during the Mac clones.

As for The CyberStorm/Blizzard PPC.  Well, Hyperion has already stated that this is something of a 'freebie'.  After all, they developed AOS 4 on Cyberstorm PPC cards, so why not allow Cyberstorm users to benefit.  And even though the Blizzard is reportedly (I don't have either, so I only know what I hear) a less reliable sibling to the Cyberstorm, Hyperion have considered; are considering; will consider supporting them as well.

[If any representative form Amiga Inc., Eyetech, or Hyperion find fault with any of my observations, please correct them.]

[ShadesOfGrey]

logain wrote:
@ShadesofGrey
>Yes, but somebody still has to pay for the
development of AOS4 on Pegasos, Macintosh,
and/or .

There are not many other platform which could be
inserted there and the Pegasos is (without doubt)
the most interesting one, since many experienced
Amigans already chose this platform as their new
base and theres a growing interest.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what makes the Pegasos I more interesting than the AmigaOne --- Edit --- (or conversley the Aimage One better than the Pegasos) --- Edit --- .  After all "many experienced Amigans" have chosen the A1 as "their new base and there's a growing interest" in it as well. Technically they are more similar than dissimilar, yet the pro-Genesi camp insists that the P1 is infinitely superior to the A1.

--- Edit --- I said "" just to cover all the bases. ---Edit ---

[ --- Edit --- Before the mud starts flying...  I am again looking at both the A1 and P1 from a 'neutral' point of view.  I sincerely believe that both the A1 and P1 are not that radically different.  So can we please tone down the 'my-hardware-is-better-than your-hardware' rhetoric? --- Edit --- ]

>neither Amiga Inc. nor Hyperion have that kind of
capital. Nor do either have the resources to support
Pegasos owners using a retail AOS4 package

Thanks to the HAL of AOS4 this is neither a time nor
much money consumpting task i guess and  the
package remains very much the same. Since
Hyperion develops the OS to the AOne anyways, its
easy to do a Pegasos version which will bring in
additional money and especially developers who
already chose or have a keen interest in the Pegasos
and dont have the intention to buy another (even
more expensive) Platform just for supporting OS 4
too.

First of all, this assumes that Hyperion will make a profit on AOS 4 on the P1.  Yet how many P1 users can Hyperion be sure will purchase AOS 4?  We all know that there are roughly 600 P1 motherboards.  But what percentage pf those would run AOS 4 if it were available?  75%?  50%? 25? Or perhaps only 5%?  

Second, who will provide tech support for these P1+AOS 4 end users?  Genesi might, but then again, they might not.  After all, AOS 4 is not there product.  AOS 4 a third party product P1 users have decided to install on their systems.  My guess is the OEM license for AOS 4 guarantees cooperation between Hyperion and Genesi with respect to providing end user support.

Third, if Hyperion where to support the P1, they would then be expected to support the P2.  Which will be drastically different from the A1 and the P1.  How much of AOS 4 would have to be re-written to support P2?  Enough so as to push back the release of AOS 4.1???  Quite probably.  Considering the amount of flack they have received for taking this long to produce AOS 4, I can just imagine what will happen if AOS 4.1 were delayed.

Lastly, if Hyperion were to port AOS 4 to the P1 (and maybe the P2) and have to support it themselves, how much would they have to charge for each retail package?  So far AOS 4 for the A1 has been said to cost $50 per copy.  Even if we assume that cost were to go up slightly, it's very reasonable...  But I doubt that would be the case for the P1.  I could speculate...  But I don't know enough about software publishing and support to make a credible guess...

>So, what do you think the likely hood is that Amiga
Inc (and/or Eyetech/Hyperion) would allow Hyperion
(err... themselves) to bring AOS4 to the Pegasos?

Amiga Inc. (and Eyetech) have no chance to do
anything by themself  in the so-called Classic
market.
The future of this platform depends on Hyperion
alone and i dont think that anyone thinks that the
remaining 3 employees of Amiga break with
Hyperion, when they would emerge the need
of a Pegasos version.

Hyperion big announced OS 4 for "any suitable
hardware" in April 2002 and just some days later (!)
 Amiga introduced the license scheme which even
got updated twice. And suddently it was very good
and clever as it is now (with shifting arguments from
that date on).

Obviously English is not your primary language, so please don't take offense if I misinterpret what you're trying to say.

"Amiga Inc. (and Eyetech) have no chance"...

I can understand, to an extent, the animosity toward Amiga Inc.  I'm not happy with many of there decision and have been disheartened by their many blunders (although I still afford them the benefit of the doubt).  But I'm a bit surprised at your negative appraisal of Eyetech.  From what I've gathered Eyetech have done the best they can to produce the AmigaOne.  Perhaps they didn't design it, but then their original plans hinged on Escena (now defunct?).  They had to come up with something, and settled on MAI Teron chip and motherboard reference design.  To what extent Eyetech did or did not improve the Teron design, I'll leave up Eyetech to clarify, but they did bring something to the AmigaOne/AOS 4 table.

"The future of this platform depends on Hyperion"...

As flattering as that is, I'm sure even Hyperion would disagree with you there.  Hyperion needed Amiga Inc. to provide the AOS 3.1 source.  Hyperion needed Eyetech to produce the hardware AOS 4 would run on.

..."when they would emerge the need of a Pegasos version."

Even if Amiga Inc. were to fold in the near future, I doubt that Hyperion would automatically jump to the Pegasos.  I'm pretty sure Hyperion would still have some obligation to Eyetech.  Or at the very least, Eyetech would still be looking to support AOS 4 on the A1 (even if both AOS4 and the A1 had to have their names changed).  I'm also pretty sure Hyperion would still want Genesi (or Pegasos vendors) to enter into some kind of OEM licensing deal.  One that would very likely look very much like the existing license.  After all, if Amiga Inc. is only a 3 man show, Hyperion is not much more than that.  I don't think the Frieden's and Mr. Hermans would relish the idea of sitting at the help desk.

"Hyperion big announced OS 4 for 'any suitable hardware'"

I think I'll have to leave this to Hyperion to clarify.  It's possible to read the statement "suitable hardware" to mean any PPC hardware meeting the "Zico" spec, or any hardware meeting the "Zico" spec and whose manufacturer/vendor has agreed to the terms of the Amiga Inc./Hyperion OEM license.  I just don't want to speak for Hyperion here.

As for the disclaimer: I respect this but have to say
that i´m not single sided too. I am a MorphOS
supporter thats for sure but first of all i´m an
Amigan, who wants every development in this tiny
market be it free or comercial, hardware or software,
´classic´ or future to suceed. There are just a lot of
things going on for more than a year now, which
could leed to a catasthropical result in the end,
which need to be avoided. And at least the "splitting
the market and hope for the best"-mentality can be
easily avoided just by realising the situation and
finally jump own imaginary fences to find an
agreement which is equally good for both and the
whole community.

It would be possible i´m sure..

Please understand that my disclaimer was not specifically directed at you.  Rather it was meant for the larger audience of Amiga.org.  Due to the hostility rampant in the 'Amiga' Community, I have taken to placing disclaimers (when and where I perceive the necessity) in order to curb the amount of trolling, flame wars, and FUD some of my comments might attract.

On to your specific comments...

I also agree that it would be beneficial, for all concerned, that some fences get mended.  Unfortunately I don't think this is very realistic.  The best I can hope for is an 'end to hostilities', if you will.   Or at the very least, a 'cease fire'.  That way each camp can sink or swim on their own merits.

[ShadesOfGrey]

bloodline wrote:

As flattering as that is, I'm sure even Hyperion would disagree with you there. Hyperion needed Amiga Inc. to provide the AOS 3.1 source. Hyperion needed Eyetech to produce the hardware AOS 4 would run on.

Nah, Hyperion are welcome to use AROS code if they need it (just as long as they stick to the licence :-D ), and Genesi would be happy to provide the Hardware.

Which of course means that Hyperion would make no profit on the endeavor...  So, AROS would be a 'hobby' to them (if they decided to help code AROS).  I suspect then that it would take Hyperion 54 or more months to reach the same level of development they have in 18 months with AOS 4...  I'm sure everybody would be happy with that.

--- Edit ---  AROS does use the GPL, right???  I probably should've double checked before I wrote my missive...  But before I read some of the other messages in the thread, I was configdent my recollection was accurate. --- Edit ---

[ShadesOfGrey]

Yeah, long live the imperial Army... Black is way sexier than white

@bloodline

But wasn't the Imperial Army made up mostly of white shock troops???

[ShadesOfGrey]

You're right...  I just don't happen to believe that any commercial 'Amiga' entity could expect to make a profit on open source software.  The platform has not reached the 'critical mass' necessary for the various open source models to be profitiable...  I mean even in the x86 world (which most certainly has achieved 'critical mass') many a firm latching on to the open source craze have withdrawn, are dying, or dead.  Few actually are turning a profit.

For those groups expecting no profit, well they are flourishing...  But only becuase they are willing to donate their time, or a commercial entity is sponsoring them for a tax write off (or a group og f die hards are interested enough to donate their own cash for a project, ala AROS and Amizilla).