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Author Topic: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga  (Read 8463 times)

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Offline psxphill

Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #44 from previous page: April 12, 2014, 04:21:29 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;762365
But the C= management would cancel any project that looked even slightly expensive...

They didn't cancel AAA fast enough. The way I see it please like Dave were supposed to be the caretakers who kept the old Amiga going until the "real heroes" delivered the AAA chipset. Top management wouldn't want to waste money on the old technology with AAA coming.
 
When you have someone at the top that doesn't understand the technology and yes men at every level down then things go wrong real fast.
 
Someone from engineering should have foreseen that AAA was going to be a disaster from day one.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2014, 06:10:22 PM »
Quote from: itix;762383
By the way... AmigaOS 4 is toxic. AmigaOS 4 is poisoned by developers who have seen MorphOS and AROS source code. I dont know if any of MorphOS developers have seen AmigaOS source code but I know that RJ Mical has seen AmigaOS source code and did consult MorphOS developers long ago. But it doesnt end there. AmigaOS developed at Commodore was poisoned by developers who had seen source code from other operating systems and ideas were adopted to AmigaOS.

But hazydave's view are understandable. He is not a software guy and he is just wrong about everything software related.


I wouldn't say Dave is wrong about everything software related but his comment was ill advised because:

1) he is not a lawyer
2) he probably didn't really know
3) he doesn't seem to really care

It's not his legal battle. The Amiga is already dead in his eyes. As Bil said, "The dead may never die." In my eyes, any companies or individuals that loot the dead C= and try to do something good with what they salvage are much better than scum companies like Amiga Inc. that try to make as much money as possible and care nothing about the intellectual property. I wish there was a law that any software that is not updated in 7 years would become free.

Quote from: itix;762383

But Amiga had not been proven successful.


True, but I believe the Amiga sales were increasing at least (with very little advertising). It was a tough economy to sell a high priced home computer into. The video game industry had recently collapsed and the price of computer hardware had plummeted. Early Macintosh sales were not good either. Many users stayed with the cheap old 8 bitters that had an abundance of cheap software and waited for the prices to fall and new software for the next generation computers. There was a question at the time whether high end computers were viable and could be profitable at all. C= was better at cost reducing the cheaper designs like the C64. They put Atari out of business (no bankruptcy but it was sold cheap). Apple was saved by a niche in education with the Apple II. The Apple IIgs outsold the Macintosh despite being released in September 1986.
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2014, 07:08:18 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;762392

Someone from engineering should have foreseen that AAA was going to be a disaster from day one.

I guess that depends on when "day 1" would have been...

AA was waaaaaay late and so was AAA/Nyx.

If engineering had it's way (and the resources) the A3000 would have gotten AA from the start (or shortly after), about 2 years before it went into the market with the A4000.

So with a little bit of willpower they might have had AAA ready in 94, at which point it would have been quite competetiv.

"The next big thing" was Hombre, some PA_RISC(?) design running WindowsNT, completling cutting of any connection with Amiga, and making C= soley depending on MS far worse than in the 8bit days with MS_Basic.
Sure would have sold o.k. on the HW base, but would have ended C= as being just another novelty PC-maker with maybe some extra live being donated by offereing the chips as a PCI-GFX-card going the successfull road gone by 3DFX, 3DLabs, S3, Matrox etc.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 07:11:07 PM by Kronos »
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2014, 09:42:50 PM »
Quote from: Kronos;762396
I guess that depends on when "day 1" would have been...

AA was waaaaaay late and so was AAA/Nyx.

If engineering had it's way (and the resources) the A3000 would have gotten AA from the start (or shortly after), about 2 years before it went into the market with the A4000.

So with a little bit of willpower they might have had AAA ready in 94, at which point it would have been quite competetiv.

"The next big thing" was Hombre, some PA_RISC(?) design running WindowsNT, completling cutting of any connection with Amiga, and making C= soley depending on MS far worse than in the 8bit days with MS_Basic.
Sure would have sold o.k. on the HW base, but would have ended C= as being just another novelty PC-maker with maybe some extra live being donated by offereing the chips as a PCI-GFX-card going the successfull road gone by 3DFX, 3DLabs, S3, Matrox etc.

So basically Haynie and friends legacy of work would have died and Amiga would have become yet another Windows machine (albeit on a RISC platform). Sounds like a losing proposition.

Frankly, this part of the story make me MORE satisfied with where we, the community, took the platform.

We're still here, and Haynie is history.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline psxphill

Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2014, 04:37:20 AM »
Quote from: Kronos;762396
AA was waaaaaay late and so was AAA/Nyx.

I read that AA was finished earlier than expected, IIRC the project was started in late 1990 and the first working silicon was in early 1991.
 
Quote from: Kronos;762396

If engineering had it's way (and the resources) the A3000 would have gotten AA from the start (or shortly after), about 2 years before it went into the market with the A4000.

When the A3000 was started AA didn't even exist on paper, in the talk Dave says they couldn't get any custom chip changes due to all the chip guys working on AAA. The A3000 was purely supposed to get money in to pay for AAA development & it couldn't be too good or it would compete with their coming soon AAA machines.
 
AA could probably have made it out a year earlier if the A3000+ had not been canned. But we're talking about late 1991 instead of 1992. That does seem to have been a management issue, however company politics are never simple and it wouldn't surprise me if there were people in engineering that were throwing in hand grenades because they didn't want AAA resources to be cut.
 
We know that engineering wasn't cohesive. The C65 project was one engineers dream to build the ultimate 8 bit computer, because they didn't like the Amiga. There were a few people who did all the stuff that got sold and there were a ton of others who spent more time creating things that were never going to happen. The view that management sucked and engineering were perfect is overly simplistic and not true.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 04:43:55 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2014, 10:31:12 AM »
If you watch the Video, Dave says the AA (as it became known) was just a side project to extend the life of the Original Chipset (or more technically the "Enhanced Chipset"). they called it AA because that was one "A" less than AAA :)

Offline psxphill

Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2014, 11:19:18 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;762419
If you watch the Video, Dave says the AA (as it became known) was just a side project to extend the life of the Original Chipset (or more technically the "Enhanced Chipset"). they called it AA because that was one "A" less than AAA :)

The side project was only started years after AAA because they realised it was several years off (if ever) and they needed something to compete. The A500 had gone through it's most successful sales period by then and they couldn't rely on momentum any longer.
 
AA was called Pandora during development. I haven't read whether that name came from a person or the greek myth.
 
I don't know how long the AA was around for, it changed because of existing usage. Both AGA and AAA suffered from this though.
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2014, 12:39:46 PM »
The Amiga section was making sales. Commodore was losing money because they kept trying to compete in the PC sector and failing.

There were a few things that should have been done quickly: High density disk drives and hard drives. An Amiga felt old when PCs came with them as standard.
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Offline pwermonger

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2014, 02:30:30 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;762399
So basically Haynie and friends legacy of work would have died and Amiga would have become yet another Windows machine (albeit on a RISC platform). Sounds like a losing proposition.
 
Frankly, this part of the story make me MORE satisfied with where we, the community, took the platform.
 
We're still here, and Haynie is history.

Actually the processor being developed for Hombre was chosen because, though it didn't have 68k emulation modes like the PowerPC, its instructions were close enough to 68k to make porting easier. The designers of the Hombre wanted AmigaOS, management didn't since they wanted a machine to sell more quickly to make money which Commodore was running out of (or had run out of) at the time. So taking an OS off the shelf (Windows NT) was a faster way to do that.
 
You can see easily from the documents he has released from the later days at Commodore, that the designs as documented never had an intention of omitting the Amiga Operating System but making the Amiga modular to make it easier to adapt it to the accelerating developments in hardware by companies dedicated to specific parts. Something Commodore could not do as a general developer anymore especially with less money going to chip development.
 
Their work on the DSP that should have been in a 3000+ (I recall reading about that machine in magazines back in the day and being excited at what it could do) was proven a winner by the well regarded Macs that came out much later. It certainly wasn't the engineers choice to drop that.
 
Having the first 040 card during the 3000 debut which was apparently so impressive that Motorola would come with a gold chip just to show it, only to have management decide not to show it was another thing you cant fault the people creating the designs.
 
Commodores desire to sell (when they did try to sell something) for a low price was more a threat to the company then the designs. Amiga was a much more complex and capable design than Macintosh. Apple could surely build the Mac for a lot less than an Amiga just take a look at the motherboards to see that and couple that with less software development the original Macs being black and white and single tasking, but sold them for more money. Same thing they still do to this day with their iPhones and iPads and did with the Apple II. Each Mac (or anything else) Apple sold put more money in their bank. They never cut price to the bone like Commodore did. Not something that can even remotely be blamed on the engineers developing the products.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2014, 02:37:42 PM »
Quote from: pwermonger;762429
Actually the processor being developed for Hombre was chosen because, though it didn't have 68k emulation modes like the PowerPC, its instructions were close enough to 68k to make porting easier.

The PowerPC didn't have any 68k emulation modes, it could run in big endian mode though.
 
They chose the HP RISC because they could buy modify the core and Ed Hepler was big on that type of design. It's the same reason the Arm took off.
 
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;762423
The Amiga section was making sales. Commodore was losing money because they kept trying to compete in the PC sector and failing.

Not really. It was the parent company that went bankrupt first. The local sales companies only went under when they couldn't get any stock in. It was commodore Germany that was building the pc's.
 
The parent company had a couple of problems with lawsuits and tax bills and no cash flow. The cd32 that they had made weren't allowed to be imported until they paid their tax bills, they couldn't pay their tax bill because without the cd32s they couldn't make any money.
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2014, 02:44:25 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;762411
The view that management sucked and engineering were perfect is overly simplistic and not true.



The point of having "managment" is to weed out brainfart projects (C65,A600,Plus4...) and steer resources towards (potential) money cows (like AAA-Amigas).
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2014, 02:57:34 PM »
Quote from: Kronos;762431
The point of having "managment" is to weed out brainfart projects (C65,A600,Plus4...) and steer resources towards (potential) money cows (like AAA-Amigas).

The A600 and Plus 4 started out as good projects.
 
The Plus 4 started out as the C116 & C264, which would have been really cheap and sold a lot. I believe marketing killed that by heaping stuff on it.
 
The A600 started out as the A300, which would have been really cheap and sold a lot. Bil Sydnes was responsible for heaping stuff on it.
 
AAA however was not really the type of project that commodore ever did well, it was never going to work.
 
The C65 probably shouldn't have ever existed, but commodore were making a load of money by selling C64's so I can see how it kept going. I imagine it got killed when they admitted it wasn't really C64 compatible at all and so it would be hard to sell it.
 

Offline pwermonger

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2014, 04:29:22 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;762430
The PowerPC didn't have any 68k emulation modes, it could run in big endian mode though.
 
They chose the HP RISC because they could buy modify the core and Ed Hepler was big on that type of design. It's the same reason the Arm took off.

Not a developer so not sure how it does it. Just that when it was finally done, PowerPC could run 680x0 code reasonably.
 
But I do know from interviews posted with Dr Ed Helper that it still was not complete in the PowerPC at the time they were developing Hombre, and no one even knew at that time if it would ever be done so it was not a cut and dry choice. That Motorola was leaving the 68k architecture was clear. So a solution had to be found to keep making machines that continued to advance.
 
CD64 design ideas were based off Hombre and included Kickstart loading from CD (to save on ROMs and make updating easier). Which shows that it wasn't the engineers idea to leave out AmigaOS.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2014, 04:52:11 PM »
All very educational, guys.
Keep it up.

Are you sure the choice of an HP processor wasn't influenced by the fact that they already had a relationship with HP fabbing chips?

And the C65 a "brainfart project"?
No that was the C128.

The C65 was a much better successor to the C64.
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"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2014, 06:17:26 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;762438
All very educational, guys.

And the C65 a "brainfart project"?
No that was the C128.


There simply was NO point in an C64-incompatible 8bit after they allready had the far more powerfull Amiga line in stores.

There was some limited point in a C64-compatible upgrade, it's just that the 128 was overengineered, something much simpler at a rock-bottom price point could have made a ton of cash.
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline persia

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Re: Dave Haynie Talks About Developing The Commodore Amiga
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2014, 07:22:38 PM »
I've looked at all the potential moves Commodore might have made, there were no moves that would have keep the company solvent until the turn of the century, let alone beyond.  They all died, Atari, Sinclair, Coleco, Acorn, et al.   The PC was establishing a dominance that would last 2 decades.
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