Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga community support ideas => Topic started by: NinjaCyborg on November 13, 2018, 04:48:33 PM
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I work with a team of professional webkit porting experts. Wondering if there's any interest in raising a fund to pay for them to port WebKit to OS4 (OS3 is probably a stretch even on a vampire, partly because of RAM requirements and partly because Cairo lib and some others are not available)
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I would love to fund a browser that would support the G Suite apps like Drive, Docs Mail etc.. It would solve a lot of the productivity issues.
PS Odyssey webbrowser is based on r155188 WebKit (October 2013)
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Yes,
I would absolutely help fund that.
-Slygon
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This would be great but I think the biggest problem is not the port itself but keeping it up-to-date.
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I agree ongoing updates is a problem. However, unlike in 2013 or 2010 or previous, web technologies have stabilised and matured - HTML5, CSS3, ECMAScript 6, websockets, webgl and so on. So, a good port now should last a long time even if it didn't get regular support. Also the guys I work with maintain official webkit ports for a major embedded platform so hopefully that work could sustain ongoing updates.
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Could this be helpful?
https://sourceforge.net/projects/leopard-webkit/
Updated recently..
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Cool. And how much do you reckon they would be asking for?
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I'd be up for helping fund that.
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Would be cool to see it happen. I would support it. However, past experience with the Firefox port may make some users rather wary.
The trick is having the fortitude to see the project through to the 'end' (whatever that is) and not get stuck at the 80% complete stage when things get hard with dependencies, UI, endianness, etc...
Would the plan be to have the changes go back upstream or would this end up as a permanent extra port? I presume it would end up on github or some other public git repository?
Cheers!
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I work with a team of professional webkit porting experts. Wondering if there's any interest in raising a fund to pay for them to port WebKit to OS4 (OS3 is probably a stretch even on a vampire, partly because of RAM requirements and partly because Cairo lib and some others are not available)
How many on the team are familiar with AmigaOS APIs? IIRC, someone familiar with LibreOffice was given an AmigaOS machine, with the task to port to AmigaOS. However, he wasn't familiar with AmigaOS APIs, and he never completed the port.
Funding a big WebKit update would be great. Just be aware that the project will have a much higher chance of success if those doing the work are familiar with AmigaOS APIs. That way they know what they're getting themselves into...
Hans
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Hi all I wanted to accumulate a few replies before replying.
- Budget would likely need to be high 5 figures, realistically
- Skillset - this team is very, very good and there is Amiga (and even 68k assembler) knowledge, albeit not up to date
- JIT - their other versions don't use JIT, there isn't a good Big endian JIT implementation to lean on
- Yes it would remain open source, unlikely that it would be accepted back into upstream though
- UI - here's a thought, what about using the existing AWeb UI but replacing it's rendering engine and JS library?
- A Patreon model would work better than a bounty or kickstarter
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It would be great, but before seeing their CV/resume/work experience etc. I would not give a dime to anybody :), especially 5 figures.
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Obviously, if we're going to do it we'd publish a 'prospectus' of why the team is credible and do some initial work to prove it.
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why to use most outdated and cumbersome ui such a as aweb if there are much more advanced and up to date front ends? such as odyssey, aros owb, netsuf mui gui on aminet might be possible to adapt or be used as reference.
also, why not simply help with updating odyssey to latest webkit engine. what might not be a trivial task, considering apparent endiannes issues becoming more problematic in later versions.
having mui frontend would made the source potable between all amiga(like) platforms: amiga, os4, orphos and aros (all flavours).
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I see a few possibilities here:
a) NinjaCyborg is just trolling for lulz
b) he hasn't done his homework in terms of what is available already, what would be needed and what wanted
c) he has done his homework and came to the conclusion that the crowd around here is gullible enough and rife for another picking
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a) NinjaCyborg is just trolling for lulz
+1
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I see a few possibilities here:
a) NinjaCyborg is just trolling for lulz
b) he hasn't done his homework in terms of what is available already, what would be needed and what wanted
c) he has done his homework and came to the conclusion that the crowd around here is gullible enough and rife for another picking
Go **** yourself
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1) The WebKit team I work with maintains the PlayStation webkit port for all their consoles
2) I ported Python to Amiga in the distant past and to Symbian OS
3) I worked many years at Symbian and know a lot about operating systems development, managing big software projects and porting browsers like Opera and WebKit to obscure systems. I've worked for some of the biggest names and run some of the world's most popular websites.
4) I have a strong fondness for the Amiga despite having been off the scene for over 15 years
However, if this is the reaction from Amiga community to having nice things, you can go **** yourselves
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also, why not simply help with updating odyssey to latest webkit engine. what might not be a trivial task, considering apparent endiannes issues becoming more problematic in later versions.
This sounds like a good idea, not least because of this slightly worrying statement in a previous post:
there is Amiga (and even 68k assembler) knowledge, albeit not up to date
Coding for OS4 is quite different from what it sounds like they have done for 68k Amigas in the past. Hopefully dealing with the Odyssey code can at least teach some of the best practices of today (although it may not be the optimal teaching tool, being ported from MorphOS, but at least better than old memories of 68k assembler coding on classic systems).
Best regards,
Niels
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@NinjaCyborg
well you will need to grow some skin if you seriously want to deliver something.
the community has become wary being scammed for money in the past and being exposed to grandeur propositions on subject like this.
i dont think im going to participate in any crowdfunding especially in five digits figure, but i think i have asked some valid and constructive questions before.
despite not being a coder im working myself on an update to odyssey (webkit) and maintain a repository (fork of deadwoods sources). my source currently compiles for i386, ppc and m68k and has been tested working on i386. the other targets need to be debugged. then we might be talking about updating the webkit core, if experienced people help, that is.
@nbache
you certainly have had opportunity to see odyssey os4 code base. but in case you want to join in, there is a slack community working to deliver different projects to widest possible amiga(ng) platforms. among others there are people working on odyssey, either there or on new aros-exec.
https://amigaports.slack.com
https://ae.amigalife.org/index.php?topic=35.0
repos:
https://github.com/deadwood-pl/OdysseyWebBrowser
https://github.com/wawatok/OdysseyWebBrowser
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@wawrzon Nobody is asking for any money now, I just answered realistically to a question about what the budget would need to be. Perhaps you all don't understand how crowdfunding works, but no one person is going to be asked for five figures. If there were 5000 active amigaos4 users, who all paid $10, that would go a long way to getting professionals involved, not the amateurs you've had in recent years. And these are professionals - they write the YouTube, Hulu, iPlayer and countless other web and VOD apps you have on your PS3, 4 and Vita.
As for OWB, it's wildly out of date. The point is to give you all the ability to run html5, google docs, office365, gmail and even write new apps using an amiga version of Electron.
But hey, if you guys don't want it, that's fine, that's the message I'm getting from the market research I'm doing here. You'd all rather just snipe at each other.
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@NinjaCyborg
In the Amiga community we would ALL love to see what you are here proposing, that's for sure.
It looks strange to me that after few positive answers, it was enough having one skeptical answer and you simply seems to giving up on your "market research", assuming that "you all don't understand how crowdfunding works". Your attitude and sentences do not put potential donors on your side, that's for sure, at least that's what I feel reading this thread.
We had in the past not one, but various attempts of people trying to get money for exactly what you are proposing without delivering *anything* useful. People are sick and tired of of loosing money on poorly managed projects. For example you may start providing some proofs of what you are telling us on your reply #17.
In the end, please, if you are serious about what you are proposing, this community is willing to support the effort, but you should provide more details, and breath a bit more before answering.
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@NinjaCyborg
I share this opinion. Telling us you are a group of qualified devs doesn't make me pull out my wallet.
compile a 'working' browser GUI for AmigaOS should not take more than a couple of hours, put it on te table. ;)
Then we talk.
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No one is asking for any money before proof of capability. What is wrong with you people?
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Once bitten, twice shy?
Oh, of course the answer to your initial question is yes, there is interest.
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@wawrzon Nobody is asking for any money now, I just answered realistically to a question about what the budget would need to be. Perhaps you all don't understand how crowdfunding works, but no one person is going to be asked for five figures. If there were 5000 active amigaos4 users, who all paid $10, that would go a long way to getting professionals involved, not the amateurs you've had in recent years. And these are professionals - they write the YouTube, Hulu, iPlayer and countless other web and VOD apps you have on your PS3, 4 and Vita.
As for OWB, it's wildly out of date. The point is to give you all the ability to run html5, google docs, office365, gmail and even write new apps using an amiga version of Electron.
But hey, if you guys don't want it, that's fine, that's the message I'm getting from the market research I'm doing here. You'd all rather just snipe at each other.
Don't take the earlier comments personally. They're just still a bit angry over the TimberWolf/Firefox debacle. There was a crowd funded effort to port FireFox to OS4 a few years ago and the programmers (the infamous Frieden brothers) promised to release their code as open source once they were fully funded and finished with the project. It took them over 2 years and what they produced was a steaming pile. And then it was another 2-3 years before they even released the sources, without any make files or other supporting libraries or documentation. So no one could even pick up where they left off. TimberWolf was extremely buggy and crash prone and later OS4 updates kept many users from even being able to run TimberWolf whatsoever.
The earlier smart-alec comments were probably made because they assumed you know about the entire fiasco that was TimberWolf.
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I'm definitely in if we find the right group to take on the task!
Yes I happily donated to the TimberWolf bounty years ago and was happy to use Timberwolf with all the add-ons for a few years fine before Update 1 came out and then it was unusable unfortunately :'( ..the Frieden Bros ended up releasing the source code to the community but nothing has happened for a while with Timberwolf sadly
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unfortunately
@wawrzonif there were 5000 active amigaos4 users
there aint that many. certainly there aint that many donors. you will probably should consider yourself happy if you will find a few hundred donors in the whole amiga community, including all offshoots. thats the reality of the situation.
@ferrellsl
Don't take the earlier comments personally. They're just still a bit angry over the TimberWolf/Firefox debacle.
im not angry. i have not even supported this bounty as it was clear to me where it was going from the start with. im just actually trying to provide some context within which such a project could be approached.
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@nbacheyou certainly have had opportunity to see odyssey os4 code base.
No, I have never seen it - and probably wouldn't be able to make much with it if I had. I was just using it as a way of stating that a fair bit of knowledge about current best practices of coding for OS4 would be necessary.
but in case you want to join in
Wish I could. I have never coded much for AmigaOS, but I have programmed for a living for many years (on other platforms and in other languages than C) and have been a beta tester for OS4 from the start, taking an "academic" interest in what was happening with the system and its API during the last 15 years or so. Having now retired, I do have a dream of one day being able to develop for AmigaOS 4.x, but it would require a long learning path to be able to do it in practice. And at the moment, lots of other projects IRL keep getting in the way.
Best regards,
Niels
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unfortunately
@wawrzonif there were 5000 active amigaos4 users
there aint that many. certainly there aint that many donors. you will probably should consider yourself happy if you will find a few hundred donors in the whole amiga community, including all offshoots. thats the reality of the situation.
@ferrellsl
Don't take the earlier comments personally. They're just still a bit angry over the TimberWolf/Firefox debacle.
im not angry. i have not even supported this bounty as it was clear to me where it was going from the start with. im just actually trying to provide some context within which such a project could be approached.
@wawrzon
My comments were not aimed at you specifically. I was replying to NinjaCyborg and forgot to put the @NinjaCyborg at the top of my post. You've done a good job as far as context goes and I agree with you. And there are others who are rightly cynical when someone out of the blue shows up here and wants to undertake such a huge project via crowd sourcing, and the cynicism showed in their comments. I was going to write a smart-alec response myself to NinjaCyborg until I noticed how few posts he has made here.
Based on the number of posts by NinjaCyborg when he started this thread (less than 50) one can assume that he's not been actively following such Amiga events as Timberwolf or even OS4 for quite some time, if at all. So I can understand why he got his feelings hurt.
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@nbache
if you can program, and that for a living, you are aeons ahead of me. there is always a way you can make yourself useful to an extent. if you have time and motivation. but i bet you know it.;)
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- UI - here's a thought, what about using the existing AWeb UI but replacing it's rendering engine and JS library?
Why AWeb? Are you aware that we already have a (now rather dated) WebKit browser called Odyssey? IMHO, it would make more sense to use that. In fact, wouldn't it be a whole lot cheaper to improve Odyssey instead of starting from scratch and using AWeb's UI?
Here's the GitHub repo (https://github.com/deadwood-pl/OdysseyWebBrowser). I think I linked to the main one, although I'm not 100% sure. You can ask kas1e about the AmigaOS 4 port.
Odyssey basically needs a big WebKit update. It could also use some miscellaneous fixes (e.g., fix memory leaks) and enhancements (e.g., the video player really should use composited video, and we have GLES2 so WebGL should be doable). A Javascript JIT would also be great, although I see that you've already put that one aside. I thought there was a PowerPC Javascript JIT out there already, but I can't remember what the project's name was.
Hans
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@Hans_ not ruling anything in or out, was trying to have a sensible discussion until a couple of arseholes hijacked the thread. - Thanks for bringing it back on topic by the way - OWB is so out of date it's probably not just a case of updating the engine. But we'd investigate it for sure. Remember - we have an existing up to date WebKit/JSKit engine port that runs on embedded PowerPC systems with few dependencies on OS provided libs, that we can potentially use. As for suggesting the old AWeb UI, it's as good as any, it was just a thought. Since having a proper Amiga UI is preferable to say, the way the NetSurf-SDL version handles the UI.
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@ferrellsl I have been off the scene for over 15 years it's true, though I followed the news enough to know about TimberWolf, NetSurf, OWB and OS4 drama. This account is new, because I have long since lost my old ones and associated email addresses. I have been cynical of the Frieden brothers since ~2003, the reason there has not been a 68K update of Python in all that time is because the Frieden brothers refused to share the changes they made to Python for OS4 back to me to include in the 68k build, despite building upon my work. Since I had plenty of non Amiga things to do at that time and since they put me off from contributing further, I didn't.
Now I have time to spare and the release of 3.1.4 reignited my passion for Amiga, and the contacts I have from years working in the operating systems world put me in a position to be of use. But, whether we do something or not really depends on whether the community deserves it, or it just going to keep flinging turds at each other.
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@Hans_ ... OWB is so out of date it's probably not just a case of updating the engine. But we'd investigate it for sure. Remember - we have an existing up to date WebKit/JSKit engine port that runs on embedded PowerPC systems with few dependencies on OS provided libs, that we can potentially use. As for suggesting the old AWeb UI, it's as good as any, it was just a thought. Since having a proper Amiga UI is preferable to say, the way the NetSurf-SDL version handles the UI.
Ah, okay. OWB also has a MUI based UI, which might be easier to use than AWeb seeing as it was built to use WebKit in the first place.
Whatever you use, it would be great to have an updated browser.
Hans
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I work with a team of professional webkit porting experts. Wondering if there's any interest in raising a fund to pay for them to port WebKit to OS4 (OS3 is probably a stretch even on a vampire, partly because of RAM requirements and partly because Cairo lib and some others are not available)
Sounds good! If the project takes off, I wish the porting team will make a web datatype, too.
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until a couple of arseholes hijacked the thread.
I like that you're making it very clear you're the wrong person for the job. That makes things a lot easier for the rest of us - if you actually appeared to be well prepared, sensible and polite, it would be a lot harder for us to convince the remaining faithful to be more cautious about sinking another shitload of money into financing this month's crazy daydream. Thank you.
As for suggesting the old AWeb UI, it's as good as any,
No, it's not. It doesn't even do Tabs.
If you want to go ahead with this, please choose somebody else for doing PR first - given the type of language used in this thread you're obviously not qualified.Next, come up with a number more precise than "five digits" - since you keep talking about "paying them", I have a hunch any further discussion will be pointless once that number is stated publicly.
Should you actually clear that hurdle, you could start your project by analysing what went wrong with the previous attempts of porting a browser: three failed Firefox attempts, Sputnik, OWB/Odyssey...
Then (and only then) you're properly equipped to enter forums and yell at bystanders because they're not showing you and your "team of professionals" enough respect.
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we have an existing up to date WebKit/JSKit engine port that runs on embedded PowerPC systems with few dependencies on OS provided libs, that we can potentially use.
thats convenient starting port. you will have though to consult the existing odyssey sources anyway, as they already contain not only endian/ppc but also system specific integration for all amigalike platforms (morphos, os4 and aros) with the exclusion of the genuine os, but morhos and aros apis follow the genuine quite closely, so it shouldnt be impossible to support that too. it would be wasteful to sompletely start over if you can adopt existing implementation, even though i know webkit code changed a lot in the meantime as i have been diffing it to see for myself.
I have been cynical of the Frieden brothers since ~2003, the reason there has not been a 68K update of Python in all that time is because the Frieden brothers refused to share the changes they made to Python for OS4 back to me to include in the 68k build,
yeah, this seems to be the usual experience in this context. speaking of 68k you will certainly have to add few patches to even get it to compile for this target, not to speak of cmake lists and such. ppc ones wont be enough, but for this you can also consult the odyssey sources i and hans have been linking to.
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Ah, okay. OWB also has a MUI based UI
Not just directed to you, Hans, as others have also used the names casually: For most OS4 users, OWB normally refers to the Reaction-based port made by Jörg a number of years ago, while Odyssey refers to the MUI-based port from Fab's MorphOS Odyssey, maintained on OS4 by kas1e.
Just to avoid confusion, if possible :-).
Whatever you use, it would be great to have an updated browser.
Most definitely!
Best regards,
Niels
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@cgutjahr LOL get over yourself
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@Spektro The datatypes system is not really sophisticated enough to support a proper web datatype, for example inline images was part of the AmigaGuide spec, but never implemented, as it can only cope with data file at a time, no child data files. Datatypes is also missing data stream and progressive rendering support that makes it unsuitable for us with a browser compared to simply embedding the raw codec libraries. Admittedly it's not very Amiga like to have duplicate code, but it's what every other system does and we certainly can't rely on the OS getting 21st century features anymore. BUT what I was thinking was as follows:
- an architecture that makes both the web engine and the JS engine available as separate entities (imagine being able to use Javascript for rexx scripts)
- a web browser that obviously embeds the two
- a light quickviewer suitable for previewing files, that again just embeds the web engine. This would meet your 'datatype' need for use with workbench, DOpus etc.
This is what webkit is architected for, like how it works on the Mac between Safari, the system WebView and the Finder QuickView. It would make it possible to have Electron which in turn is what many popular apps like Slack and Skype are now built with.
This even leaves it open to other browser UIs if you don't like the default one.
As for 68K support, I already mentioned while it would be great to be able to do, the combination of missing dependencies like cairo, lack of recent version of GCC, and the need for 200MB+ RAM would seem to rule it out.
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I like the ideas being floated - an embeddable browser engine would be cool.
With a project of this potential size I would recommend identifying the biggest hurdles to success. Work from the largest to the smallest unknown/uncertainty. No need to get 80% of the way and then start tackling the hard parts that everyone has avoided. I would suggest doing some of this homework before the big push for funding.
Work with a sprint model with multiple deliverables. Sprint duration is typically 2 to 4 weeks. Take baby steps and you will quickly identify potential project-destroying issues sooner rather than later. This may be difficult to reconcile with a bounty-style funding model.
I own/manage a team of developers and we routinely follow these two basic tenets and so far all of our projects come out reasonably close to expectations. We have so far avoided disasters which seem to plague the industry from time to time. Our project costs range from <10K to >100K and this model has served us well for many years.
It also helps to have an experienced, mature team. It sounds like you have that so that is a large contributor to success.
Cheers!
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@gregthecanuck
I completely agree. The purpose of my original post here is to gauge whether it's worth pursuing before spending time and money on the initial risk mitigation and proof of concept work. Out in the real world, I am a published author on the topics of lean/agile software and project risk management. And I was once commissioned by Mozilla to investigate porting Firefox to Symbian OS. The Firefox code was a dumpster fire at the time (it was heavily refactored in recent years). So I'd like to think I know what I'm doing.
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@NinjaCyborg
Ok. What I was thinking of was an easy way, for hobby programmers like me, to embed html/web content in my application. I thought a web datatype or a BOOBSI gadged would be the way, but apparently not.
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@Spektro totally agree a way to embed the engine would be a priority and the browser itself should be architected in that way. Datatypes are probably not the right way to do it based on my deep knowledge of OS3 and shallow knowledge of OS4 but BOOPSI might be simply because BOOPSI is pretty bare bones as it is. I can imagine a child type of the reaction window.class that implements a webview window as one possible approach.
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As for 68K support, I already mentioned while it would be great to be able to do, the combination of missing dependencies like cairo, lack of recent version of GCC, and the need for 200MB+ RAM would seem to rule it out.
we do have all necessary dependencies on aros and compiling for m68k. there is no excuse, odyssey cannot be made to run at least on winuae.
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@wawrzon I'm already being accused of making promises I'll never keep, despite not yet making any promises, so I definitely won't promise a 68k version! I'd like to think a vampire build might one day be a possibility but right now I'm just spitballing ideas.
I have had a play with OWB on AROS and it renders well but certainly uses all the ram it can get. On OS4 it's just too unstable IMHO. Again, we already have an embedded build for powerpc, and frankly working with code we already know and can build upon is likely to be more productive than importing code from another side project. WebKit also needs a recent GCC 4.7+, which I don't think exists on 68k but maybe exists as a cross compiler?
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@NinjaCyborg
im not telling you to base your project on aros owb (which as it has been pointed before is different from odyssey, as the later has a many years newer webkit engine) nor even upon the code base of the latter one, but i wanted at least to point you to some reference you might want to be using (or have an option to look at). while im unlikely to support, especially a bounty for a browser restricted to os4 audience, i wish you luck and just try to be helpful, in case you think, im attacking your effort.
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@gregthecanuck
I completely agree. The purpose of my original post here is to gauge whether it's worth pursuing before spending time and money on the initial risk mitigation and proof of concept work. Out in the real world, I am a published author on the topics of lean/agile software and project risk management. And I was once commissioned by Mozilla to investigate porting Firefox to Symbian OS. The Firefox code was a dumpster fire at the time (it was heavily refactored in recent years). So I'd like to think I know what I'm doing.
Sounds like you have some great background wrangling teams of developers. A big plus. :)
As for 68K, there is a nice updated GCC 6.x cross-compiler from bebbo here: https://github.com/bebbo/gcc (https://github.com/bebbo/gcc)
And an EAB discussion thread here: http://eab.abime.net/forumdisplay.php?f=118 (http://eab.abime.net/forumdisplay.php?f=118)
I think 68K could be doable, but realistically probably on the upcoming Vampire V4 with 512MB RAM. Of course there is emulated 68K wth more memory available as well. I suggest 68K support should be kept in mind but left to a later date. *ALL* Amiga platforms (OS4/MOS/AROS/68K) could use an updated browser.
Cheers!
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@gregthecanuck
Thanks for the link to GCC6. While I'm not a fan of AROS and MorphOS if they have the necessary dependencies (e.g. Cairo) I'd see no reason not to make the port in a source compatible way. That would at least increase the pool of potential sponsors. Something to look at during initial feasibility.
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of course feasibility of an amiga (m68k) port is disputable. i have not (yet) been able get odyssey to run on even an emulated amiga. all i can say, is that aros owb, with older webkit engine is working on an a4000/060, albeit very slow.
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@Spektro The datatypes system is not really sophisticated enough to support a proper web datatype, for example inline images was part of the AmigaGuide spec, but never implemented, as it can only cope with data file at a time, no child data files. Datatypes is also missing data stream and progressive rendering support that makes it unsuitable for us with a browser compared to simply embedding the raw codec libraries. Admittedly it's not very Amiga like to have duplicate code, but it's what every other system does and we certainly can't rely on the OS getting 21st century features anymore. BUT what I was thinking was as follows:
- an architecture that makes both the web engine and the JS engine available as separate entities (imagine being able to use Javascript for rexx scripts)
- a web browser that obviously embeds the two
- a light quickviewer suitable for previewing files, that again just embeds the web engine. This would meet your 'datatype' need for use with workbench, DOpus etc.
A quick comment about this. For developers having a WebKit gadget (or similar) would be most useful for embedding the web engine in apps. However, for users a "datatype" would enable quick viewing of HTML files via multi-view. It wouldn't be much of a datatype really. It would basically be the WebKit gadget embedded in a datatype that is set up to recognize HTML/XHTML. And maybe a simple text/rich-text export ability.
NOTE: There are HTML datatypes already, and yes, they cope with loading external images (e.g., here (http://www.sebastianbauer.info/index.php?page=amiga/simplehtml). They're just waaaay too dated.
Of course, HTML viewing could also be done simply by opening an actual web browser...
Hans
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NOTE: There are HTML datatypes already, and yes, they cope with loading external images
Side note: The most important feature of such a thing is IMO not to cope with loading external images, but to cope with not loading external images.
In other words, it must be possible for the user to deselect following external links.
Best regards,
Niels